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Michael - The Great Album Debate

azsummergirl said:
the best part of this video: "oh, that moonwalk he does. it's lovely" -some british lady.
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Yes, I remember that part....:D

There's something else someone says, I think it's at the beginning of the aired Bucharest concert in 1992 or something...It's been a while since I've seen it, but it's this Scottish guy, literally right after the concert, he was asked about the experience, and he says something along the lines of, 'Much, much better than sex!' :rofl:
 
lucilla said:
2j7csx.jpg
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Just out of curiosity, what kind of proof would you expect to see?
 
^^ I think the demos of the songs or footage of MJ singing in Eddie's studio would be enough proof to convince people who doubt the authenticity of the songs. It would be for me at least...
 
"Unprocessed" songs would be the ultimate proof. Because in this case, we should be able to hear MJ. Video proof is also good.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Yes, he was called all names, there were many invented stories, but never th epress suggested he was a paedophile. So the invented stories did not affect his career or image. On the contrary, it triggered curiosity and people wanted to see him. People were impressesd when they saw him.

But once he gave the interview to Oprah, the mythical MJ was replaced by someone who trusted the press enough to talk about his private life. And yet again the press twisted around things despite what he had said to Oprah. (Later to Bashir.)

Before that, despite the newspapers articles about MJ sleeping in an oxygen chamber, and all sorts of rumours, he was also extremely respected as even the press knew that the stories were invented. MJ never said any of those rumours to anyone. He expressed himself back through the songs like "Leave me alone"

[youtube]crbFmpezO4A&ob=av2e[/youtube]

Although hurtful to MJ, the press back then was nothing compared to what he endured after the accusations. MJ did it very well with Leave me alone, and Oprah was unnecessary (except to voyeurs who wanted to know every single detail of MJ's private life). Michael unveiling his private life was like removing Santa Claus's beard in front of a child. The myth was over, and it was time to find new sorts of rumours. Shortly after Michael got accused.

SONY, instead of fighting, advised to move on by settling out of court. Later on, despite MJ's trimendeous efforts and creativity (Ghosts video), the promotion was extremely poor. Still today there's even no DVD for it, just a VHS distributed on the European market (a VHS????? although everyone already had been buying movies on DVDs).

Later on SONY promoted MJ even less (we all saw, well thsoe who remember) how poorly Invincible was promoted. Many seem tend to forget that. Clearly the one billion that SONY paid to MJ, was to own him and not to produce him. Today we have a turmoil with the Cascio songs.

Now look at this video (pre-Oprah and pre-SONY era) and see how Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall reacted when they had THE MAN, THE LEGEND, THE MYTH standing in front of them (despite the oxygen chamber rumours and so on):

[youtube]M5Ht6ue7wMs[/youtube]
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Ghosts released on VCD too.
 
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VCD quality = A JOKE. I have it myself and it sucks donkeyass. Look what they did to it on the WOWOW Channel. Almost perfect quality. Imagine a Blu-Ray release.

But no.
 
Pentum said:
"Unprocessed" songs would be the ultimate proof. Because in this case, we should be able to hear MJ. Video proof is also good.
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The unprocessed songs they might give us, but the anti-Cascio people would just say they confirm it's Jason singing. Everybody has to understand this : if the anti-Cascio people can convince themselves it's Jason Malachi singing the Cascio songs that were released, despite the fact it's basically impossible it can be him, they will easily listen to the unprocessed vocals, or even work tapes from the sessions, and claim it's Jason PRETENDING to be MJ working on the songs. Or they'll say; "sure, MJ WAS in the studio, but he never recorded the actual songs."

As for video proof, maybe there just isn't any. Live with it. The Cascios didn't know MJ was going to be dead in 2 years, and that those recording sessions would one day be questioned as having never happened.

I even think that some people here would find a way to deny actual video proof. They'll manage to find differences between MJ's voice on the video and his voice on the songs.
 
StellaJackson;3612335 said:
Here is the Breaking News a capella. Ignore the pasted breaths, samples etc and focus on the lead vocals. Pay particular attention to the bridge. http://floriceg.multiply.com/video/...el_Jackson?&show_interstitial=1&u=/video/item

The most obvious snort is at 1:16.


[youtube]4aJupUgecKk[/youtube]
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I just have to quote again the following :

“The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding or slight discrepancy to defeat 20 pieces of solid evidence; accepts one witness of theirs, even if he or she is a provable nut, as being far more credible than 10 normal witnesses on the other side; treats rumours, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists, as the late lawyer Louis Nizer once observed, that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained.”

— Vincent Bugliosi, from Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
 
kreen said:
The unprocessed songs they might give us, but the anti-Cascio people would just say they confirm it's Jason singing. Everybody has to understand this : if the anti-Cascio people can convince themselves it's Jason Malachi singing the Cascio songs that were released, despite the fact it's basically impossible it can be him, they will easily listen to the unprocessed vocals, or even work tapes from the sessions, and claim it's Jason PRETENDING to be MJ working on the songs. Or they'll say; "sure, MJ WAS in the studio, but he never recorded the actual songs."

As for video proof, maybe there just isn't any. Live with it. The Cascios didn't know MJ was going to be dead in 2 years, and that those recording sessions would one day be questioned as having never happened.

I even think that some people here would find a way to deny actual video proof. They'll manage to find differences between MJ's voice on the video and his voice on the songs.
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Well, there are people around here who actually live and breath Michael and have listened and analysed his songs thousands of times. And they have never been doubted about if it's really Michael about any MJ song, EXCEPT Cascios. If Michael would have sang something even through toilet paper roll, recorded with old cell phone and applied some computer stuff enhancement to it, it would STILL sound like Michael. But guess what, Cascios are good quality, everything is ok, but something is actually wrong with the voice. It just doesn't sound like Michael, but it DOES sound like Jason. We have no doubts about Michael's voice in This Is It. Why we have doubts about Cascios? Cause they don't feel ''right''. Even Michael's vocals not recorded in studio but with crappy phone still sounds like Michael. For me there's absolutely no way he sang Cascios, it's just that.
 
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kreen;3612567 said:
I just have to quote again the following :

“The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding or slight discrepancy to defeat 20 pieces of solid evidence what solid evidence is there to prove it is him? None. And on the other hand, the discrepancies between Michael and 'Michael' are more than slight; accepts one witness of theirs, even if he or she is a provable nut, as being far more credible than 10 normal witnesses on the other side; Teddy Riley can be trusted, despite his many inconsistent explanations. He worked on Dangerous! But Taryll Jackson, despite featuring on the album himself, is only trying to sabotage it, right? treats rumours, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; have you seen that vocal analysis the Estate mentioned yet? leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists, as the late lawyer Louis Nizer once observed, that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained. "sure, the voice sounds different, Michael sounds off. Ok, there also is not really any tangible proof that it is him - but it has to be, because they would never do something like this.”

— Vincent Bugliosi, from Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
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Again kreen, you can easily use these types of quotes to describe and patronize both sides. I still do not think it helps the debate one bit.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
I'm sure you all read this already but if you haven't here some posts by Joe Vogel about the "Michael" album.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/exclusive-the-inside-stor_b_781364.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/is-michael-really-michael_b_791987.html
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Yes, definitely read those before....

The thing is, once again, these posts heavily rely on the word of others to say, 'Yup this is MJ'...Truth is, these producers and what not know just about as much as fans do....They weren't there when these vocals were recorded...Just like we, as fans, weren't there either...So what's the difference? Why rely on their word? That's fine if anyone wants to, but it still doesn't change what is heard on these records...NONE of it explains why he sounds the way he does (when you compare to him in any low quality situation, he sounds exactly like how he always sounds, or else we'd be doubting those too)....So yeah...it really doesn't matter what anyone says as far as it being Michael...There is no proof, for either side, obviously..

So, despite all that, I can't lie to myself about what I hear....I can't just go by blind faith...That's all we have to go by? The word of others? So that's ALL they have given us...That's it...They wouldn't do this to Michael, etc...Well, it's not entirely impossible...If they can get away with it, why not?
 
kreen said:
The unprocessed songs they might give us, but the anti-Cascio people would just say they confirm it's Jason singing.
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If unprocessed Cascio songs were released and they sounded exactly like Michael Jackson, I would have no problem to admit I was wrong. I don't think anyone here would still claim these songs are not Michael if they themselves heard Michael, and they were 100% sure of it. The problem is that to us, these songs do not sound like Michael Jackson.

Everybody has to understand this : if the anti-Cascio people can convince themselves it's Jason Malachi singing the Cascio songs that were released, despite the fact it's basically impossible it can be him, they will easily listen to the unprocessed vocals, or even work tapes from the sessions, and claim it's Jason PRETENDING to be MJ working on the songs. Or they'll say; "sure, MJ WAS in the studio, but he never recorded the actual songs."
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Please explain how it is impossible for Jason Malachi to be the singer of the Cascio tracks.
 
kreen;3612567 said:
I just have to quote again the following :

“The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding or slight discrepancy to defeat 20 pieces of solid evidence; accepts one witness of theirs, even if he or she is a provable nut, as being far more credible than 10 normal witnesses on the other side; treats rumours, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists, as the late lawyer Louis Nizer once observed, that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained.”

— Vincent Bugliosi, from Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
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You do realize that you're living in a society that has a lot of really advanced technology which didn't exist 20-30 years ago, right? The really advanced technology of our time makes it, for the most part, very easy to fabricate and replicate almost anything. From photos, to videos, to sounds, pretty much everything can be fabricated and replicated to simulate a legit picture/video/sound/etc.

My point is, I really don't think a lot of 'modern day conspiracies' seem that far fetched at all. Especially since you think about how easy it might be to stage something like this. With the proper planning, it certainly wouldn't be impossible.

The idea of such a conspiracy might be improbable, but not impossible.

"Once you eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth!" (Sherlock Holmes)
 
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Kreen - when you can provide answers to explain all the issues surrounding these tracks then maybe people will take you seriously. In the meantime your constant attempts to make people who have genuine concerns about these songs look like conspiracy theorists are shallow and unnecessary. Especially when you yourself shared the same view of these tracks in the beginning. I've asked people like you to explain these things for months now and you can't.

And what is this anti-Cascio nonsense? No one here is anti Cascio. We just don't hear Michael in these songs. We hear JM. I have been living and breathing Michael's voice for decades. I do not recognise the voice on these tracks as Michael.

Instead of posting quotes that are completely irrelevant to the issue at hand why didn't you try to answer the issue I raised. So once again I ask you - please explain, using sources and examples, why the same vibrato, snorts, pronounciation and accent that appear in JM's own songs are all over the Cascio tracks and not in any other MJ recording. Then show some proof that Michael is the lead vocalist.

And how do you figure it is impossible for it to be Jason? What are you basing that on? That the Cascio's couldn't possibly lie? Or that people couldn't possibly be fooled? Nobody has convinced themselves that it's Jason. I actually take offence at that. We do not want it to be him. We don't want this. But we can't help what we hear. It's about time you understood that and stopped this conspiracy theory nonsense.

And as for the processing - there is hardly any.
 
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ADKIc3mAnX said:
I'm sure you all read this already but if you haven't here some posts by Joe Vogel about the "Michael" album.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/exclusive-the-inside-stor_b_781364.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/is-michael-really-michael_b_791987.html
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First of all, those articles are almost word for word the same as the Estate's statement. They aren't backed up by any proof whatsoever. Joe Vogel has since stated publicly via twitter that he now has a different opinion based on things he's learnt. It should also be noted that both Cascio and Porte refused to be interviewed for his book.
 
Joe Vogel Tweets


@damienshields Damien Shields
@JoeVogel1 Hear Burn Tonight leaked today? Thoughts?
2 Aug

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@damienshields "Take Me Away" was pretty cool.
2 Aug via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/98270218337529856

[...]

@mootangfruit Col
@JoeVogel1 What you said in your Michael review is absolute horse shit. The Cascio tracks are not Michael. Have you changed your opinion?
13 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@mootangfruit I've learned a lot since then. My view now is that they def sound strange and more transparency is needed.
13 Sep via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/113705646377021440

[...]

@mootangfruit Col
@JoeVogel1 why the change of heart?
13 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@mootangfruit As an author, I have to rely on sources and decide which sources are credible. It's not always easy
13 Sep via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/113707952602480640

[...]

@SCReuter SCReuter
@JoeVogel1 Did Michael Jackson record all his vocals for "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008" at the Cascio home in the second half of 2007?
14 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@SCReuter Yes, that's my understanding
14 Sep via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/114158377814339585

[...]

@punkrockhair punkrockhair
@JoeVogel1 You no longer think the Cascio tracks are really him? So who do you think they are?
16 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@punkrockhair I think it would be helpful to learn more about the origins
17 Sep via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/114934969570295808

[...]

@maryjackson2908 maryjackson
@JoeVogel1 Joe what do you think about the album "Michael"? do you doubt some songs that's NOT Michael singing? how about Keep your head up?
18 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@maryjackson2908 Mixed feelings. Need more information about origins
18 Sep [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/115563699565109248

@onir_mj Onir Michael Jackson
@JoeVogel1 The Immortal World Tour is using Cascio songs Monster & Breaking News! What do you think about that?
18 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@onir_mj Personally, there are about 200 others I would use before
18 Sep via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/115563969632153600

[...]

@maryjackson777 maryjackson
@JoeVogel1 you're confused.Your opinion is important to me.It's really sad to hear you said that.No way for us to check origins
19 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@maryjackson777 I meant mixed feelings about the album as a whole.
20 Sep via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/116244055289118720

[...]

@His_Best_Of_Joy His Best Of Joy
@JoeVogel1 What are your thoughts on the Cascio tracks that were featured on the "Michael" album?
20 Sep

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@His_Best_Of_Joy They sound strange to me
20 Sep via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/116316912996192256

[...]

@mootangfruit Col
@JoeVogel1 joe, would you be able to find anything out about the 1998 track monster? Or the bryan loren version of stay?
10 Oct

@JoeVogel1 Joe Vogel
@mootangfruit The Monster track is completely different than the one on the album and isn't finished. Not sure about Stay
10 Oct via web [2011]
http://twitter.com/#!/JoeVogel1/status/123529552675868672
 
Honestly, im begining to think that there is no evidence.

If there was evidence:

1. It would have been showed, and could have been used for promotion.
1a. If the Cascios have unprocessed, why no fix the released "processed" songs
1b. There is little processing anyways

2. Maybe its being saved for the next album.
2a. Maybe a Cascio track will stream first like Breaking News.
2b, andwith any god given luck....it will be Michael.
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
Honestly, im begining to think that there is no evidence.

If there was evidence:

1. It would have been showed, and could have been used for promotion.
1a. If the Cascios have unprocessed, why no fix the released "processed" songs
1b. There is little processing anyways

2. Maybe its being saved for the next album.
2a. Maybe a Cascio track will stream first like Breaking News.
2b, andwith any god given luck....it will be Michael.
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We know 2b can't happen though cos we've heard all 12 tracks. It's the same voice on all.
 
I find it funny that Kreen thinks we farfetch things...

Let me just tell you this Kreen. In the very beginning I actually farfectched to convince myself that I heard Michael. I made up excuses of such odd vocals as "maybe MJ recorded those songs with another type of stereo (apparently there are two types of stereo), the one that is used by the French radios.

I mean, can you imagine what I was making up in order to convince myself to hear MJ? Sorry, but the truth of the matter I, and many other doubters, usually the ones who have been breathing, drinking, eating, and being MJ fanatics, we don't recognize MJ's voice at all.

By the way Kreen, can you describe and define "processing"? What does it actually mean? I suppose every single MJ song has been processed so far. So why those Cascio songs have the excuse of some kind of alternative processing that makes the voice sound odd?
 
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BUMPER SNIPPET said:
By the way Kreen, can you describe and define "processing"? What does it actually mean? I suppose every single MJ song has been processed so far. So why those Cascio songs have the excuse of some kind of alternative processing that makes the voice sound odd?
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You'll never get an answer to this. Other than the obvious one, which is that "processing" has absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
StellaJackson said:
You'll never get an answer to this. Other than the obvious one, which is that "processing" has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Agreed...I think with the numerous examples that have been shown here of Michael's genuine voice and music being processed by fans, AND the Take Me Away processing, it's clear we can throw that explanation out the window....
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Let me just tell you this Kreen. In the very beginning I actually farfectched to convince myself that I heard Michael. I made up excuses of such odd vocals as "maybe MJ recorded those songs with another type of stereo (apparently there are two types of stereo), the one that is used by the French radios.

I mean, can you imagine what I was making up in order to convince myself to hear MJ? Sorry, but the truth of the matter I, and many other doubters, usually the ones who have been breathing, drinking, eating, and being MJ fanatics, we don't recognize MJ's voice at all.
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I was trying to convince myself that it was a publicity stunt, and that when I bought the album, the songs would actually sound exactly like Michael always sounded...I had felt better clinging to that belief for the time being...Then the album was released...:sigh:

I listened to those songs SO much to try and hear him...over and over and over again...That voice is just not convincing at all...
 
Arklove said:
I was trying to convince myself that it was a publicity stunt, and that when I bought the album, the songs would actually sound exactly like Michael always sounded...I had felt better clinging to that belief for the time being...Then the album was released...:sigh:

I listened to those songs SO much to try and hear him...over and over and over again...That voice is just not convincing at all...
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I remember emitting different hypothesis why "he" sounded different. I suggested to people to try to listen to the songs in their cars and what not in order to maybe detect MJ's voice. But actually, the noise of the engine of the car covered even more the voice so inbetween the noises you sort of hear something sounding like MJ. But after that stupid exercise of mine, I said to myself, hold on a moment, this is not supposed to be a normal condition of listening to MJ. Do I have to actually cover the voice with the engine noise in order to (sort of) hear him? Of course the blurriest the voice, the more difficult to say who's singing, many little sound exercises proved it in this thread when people were posting few seconds long snippets of bad quality (supposedly?) MJ's voice.
So I stopped making up excuses and had to face the reality of the matter -- not MJ's voice.

I refuse to make any kind of excuse why "he" sounds different. It is indeed farfetching when the excuses are used such as "processing" (which means nothing at all since all MJ's songs have been processed throughout his career and never did he sound like that), or excuses such as because he was sick, or because of the studio environment, etc.

He was not sick, Eddie confirmed that "he" was ready and that "he" was training every day and that "they" were working hard to record those songs.

Poor studio environment does not affect the voice, it only affects the quality of the recording. We all know that there are some MJ's songs that haven't been recorded in a proper studio, yet his voice does not sound as the one on the Cascio tracks.

Regarding the Estate's report, it is not that I willingly do not want to believe them, but the truth of the matter is that I don't want to lie to myself what I hear. So the Estate's window-dressing report, in order to convince the doubters, should be more tangible than pulling wool over our eyes.

There is no conspiracy from the doubters' parts, nor any accusations, we just don't hear MJ. Only when it is proven that it is MJ, then we will believe it. The same goes if the opposite is proven. If it is not MJ, then someone is guilty about all this mess. It is one way or the other. But if there is fraud the responsibles will never admit their guilt, that's a fact.
 
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Whatever which way you look at it: It's not a positive thing to his memory. When maybe someday fraud is proven, it's just another negative thing about Michael in the news, another chapter to the soap for the general public, even though Michael had nothing to do with it and even though many people have Michael in their hearts for the music they grew up with and the talent he displayed that cannot be disputed.

There will never be any winners here, even if 'the doubters' are proven right. Nothing can make this insult undone. Is has already happened. Not even if we will get 'our truth' or justice.
 
kreen;3612567 said:
I just have to quote again the following :

“The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding or slight discrepancy to defeat 20 pieces of solid evidence; accepts one witness of theirs, even if he or she is a provable nut, as being far more credible than 10 normal witnesses on the other side; treats rumours, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists, as the late lawyer Louis Nizer once observed, that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained.”

— Vincent Bugliosi, from Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
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In any right triangle, the area of the square whose side is the hypotenuse (the side opposite the right angle) is equal to the sum of the areas of the squares whose sides are the two legs (the two sides that meet at a right angle).

Pythagoras' Theorem


We can post theories all day here, if you want. It's easy. But can you give answers to some questions post here regarding the Cascio songs? Please be our guest.
 
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