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Michael - The Great Album Debate

So it's okay for some fans to say that Keep Your Head Up, Monster, and Breaking News are not MJ but when the media says that Hollywood Tonight & Hold My Hand are not MJ it bothers them, that's how we feel.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
LaToya is full of it the same way she claimed she has all of MJ's unreleased songs in 2011.

She wants attention and now she's using MJ's kids for it.
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Wouldnt sony have them all in the vault or the estate ? id like to know how the heck she would get her hands on those songs
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
LaToya is full of it the same way she claimed she has all of MJ's unreleased songs in 2011.

She wants attention and now she's using MJ's kids for it.
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I love the fact she said Paris called her and said how they had to do something and ended up doing shit. I wonder if the song she listen to Hollywood Tonight since Paris insisted that song was definitely not him either.

Serious, Latoya needs to stop using her niece like this. This is just sicken.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
So it's okay for some fans to say that Keep Your Head Up, Monster, and Breaking News are not MJ but when the media says that Hollywood Tonight & Hold My Hand are not MJ it bothers them, that's how we feel.
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Because it's clear something's messed up with the Cascio vocals....And it's obvious that HMH and HT ARE Michael....You don't see a 1659 page thread debating the authenticity of HMH or HT, do you?

Even the most fervent believer has to admit the vocals don't sound like anything we've heard before...
 
i'm coming into this thread confused :( and i didn't read all 1658 pages of it.

when the controversy first cropped up, i thought, why would Sony put in fake songs? no matter how i feel about Sony, it's still a huge company and huge companies usually don't take huge risks like that. Stella says Sony didn't know, it's the Cascios who fooled us all. but Michael is their major artist! how could they not know if it's a genuine MJ or not? and as someone said on the hacking thread, why go this far to make huge $$? the Cascios could just ask media to pay them for interviews and blab all they want about MJ. or write a book, like Frank did. another thing is that Michael indeed shared many years of friendship with the Cascios. why would they turn around this viciously against him, if it is true that they got paid for fake tracks?

the Jacksons complained, but why didn't they take action? Stella, you seem to know much about the story, and you mentioned that you or the ones involved have communicated with the Jacksons repeatedly. what was their reaction? they, as against Birchey, would have the real power to confront Sony if they have proof that the tracks are fake.

in the end, maybe this shouldn't have been this messy if Sony allowed major fans with the technical know-how to participate or at least watch the process of analysis. after all, the fans are major stakeholders as well. Sony, the Estate, the Jacksons, the fans, and last but not the least, the recording engineers that Michael had worked with from album to album. was Bruce Swedien even there? and if not, why not?

edited to add: i am also questioning the wisdom of proceeding with the Cascio songs when there are many outtakes, 100% MJ songs in the vaults.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
So it's okay for some fans to say that Keep Your Head Up, Monster, and Breaking News are not MJ but when the media says that Hollywood Tonight & Hold My Hand are not MJ it bothers them, that's how we feel.
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It's upsetting because we have evidence to prove HMH and Hollywood Tonight are Michael's. So, saying the songs are fake is clearly a misstatement.

HMH is leaked before 2009. It's duet between Michael and Akon.

As for Hollywood Tonight, we have lyric sheets and demo.

Now tell me what concrete evidence have you seen and heard? Other than a statement from the Estate and a picture of an empty studio.

Like the doubters, the believers have no proof of the songs' authenticity.

Seriously, this debate and all the legal troubles would not have happened if more information is communicated to fans. Yes, I know that not everyone wil be satisfied. But, many of us are more reasonable than what you might expect.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
So it's okay for some fans to say that Keep Your Head Up, Monster, and Breaking News are not MJ but when the media says that Hollywood Tonight & Hold My Hand are not MJ it bothers them, that's how we feel.
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yes. it is ok. the same way it's ok to say billie jean and remember the time are sung by michael jackson, and black widow and water are not.

i know i said this before but it was like 1000 pages ago, so i'll repeat it. one of the reasons people are so passionate about this is because this is not an opinion. some people treat these songs as some kind of "grey area" issue. This is not a grey area. the lead singer is either michael jackson or it's not, end of story. one side is right and the other side is wrong and that's it. Whether or not this can actually ever be proved--that's one thing. but the fact remains, we can't both be right.
 
OnirMJ;3607517 said:
Listen this crazy b***h:

http://blog.music.aol.com/2012/03/05/latoya-jackson-michael-jackson-songs-fake/

Such an amazing song, Hold My Hand and so much hate!
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The AOL blogger is somewhat misinformed. La Toya Jackson didn't mention "Hold My Hand" on the show, nor did she contradict Paris Jackson's recent Twitter comments.

qbee;3607520 said:
Now you have Latoya championing the doubters cause. Except I bet the the song Paris played for her WAS "Holloood Tonight"
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What makes you think that? For all we know, La Toya could have been referring to "Breaking News"—the album's first promotional release.
 
Calisto;3607636 said:
What makes you think that? For all we know, La Toya could have been referring to "Breaking News"—the album's first promotional release.
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Latoya said she didnt even listen to the Album so she may not even even know the name or remember the name of the song Paris played for her. But I have good reason to think it was Hollywood, becuase at the time Latoya stated this happened - Paris was tweeting Hollywood was NOT MJ singing to someone who said they liked the Video. She tweeted "you know that isnt my dad singing," or something to that effect. I tweeted her her that is was indeed her father. She later came back and insisted it wasnt Michael and said "I should know my own dads voice." I left it at that - but it was at the same time Latoya is stating Paris questioned her. I think Latoya probably confirmed it for her at that same time. Her tweet is posted a few pages back.
 
qbee said:
Latoya said she didnt even listen to the Album so she may not even even know the name or remember the name of the song Paris played for her. But I have good reason to think it was Hollywood, becuase at the time Latoya stated this happened - Paris was tweeting Hollywood was NOT MJ singing to someone who said they liked the Video. She tweeted "you know that isnt my dad singing," or something to that effect. I tweeted her her that is was indeed her father. She later came back and insisted it wasnt Michael and said "I should know my own dads voice." I left it at that - but it was at the same time Latoya is stating Paris questioned her. I think Latoya probably confirmed it for her at that same time. Her tweet is posted a few pages back.
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I think that we really shouldn't be that concerned because as far as I see both believers and doubters know HT is MJ regardless of what Paris or any member of the Jackson family says.

This is simply old news. Some newspapers have no other "scandals" to write in order to attract attention, so they're recycling old stuff. And the other newspapers as usual are just copy-pasting THE "news" warapping it as NEW the same way some producers copy-pasted vocals from Invincible to the Cascio songs and wrapped them as NEW.
 
qbee said:
Latoya said she didnt even listen to the Album so she may not even even know the name or remember the name of the song Paris played for her. But I have good reason to think it was Hollywood, becuase at the time Latoya stated this happened - Paris was tweeting Hollywood was NOT MJ singing to someone who said they liked the Video. She tweeted "you know that isnt my dad singing," or something to that effect. I tweeted her her that is was indeed her father. She later came back and insisted it wasnt Michael and said "I should know my own dads voice." I left it at that - but it was at the same time Latoya is stating Paris questioned her. I think Latoya probably confirmed it for her at that same time. Her tweet is posted a few pages back.
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La Toya Jackson said it occurred during the taping of 'The Apprentice.' The eleventh season of the reality show began filming on October 18, 2010 and (based on the show's production history) likely wrapped the following month. Paris Jackson's tweets, on the other hand, weren't posted until June 4, 2011. :p

Having said that, the song in question could have still been 'Hollywood Tonight,' but I'm thinking the infamous 'Breaking News' is the more likely candidate.
 
It's worrying to consider the damage that these poisonous songs have done, when even his own daughter is now denying the authenticity of songs that actually were sung by her father.

The Cascio songs need to be dropped from any future project before they do any futher damage.
 
Since we're on the subject, here's everything La Toya Jackson has said regarding the vocal controversy:


* * *


November 6, 2010 - TMZ


TMZ
Do you think that's your bother's song? They're saying it's not his.

La Toya Jackson
You know what? I listened to it ... It doesn't sound like him.

TMZ
It doesn't sound like him?

La Toya Jackson
No, it doesn't.

http://www.tmz.com/2010/11/07/la-toya-jackson-michael-jackson-song-breaking-news-sony/


- - -


July 1, 2011 - Gary Duff


Gary Duff
... Sony released a CD of your brother's that wasn't really finished, but your brother Randy was talking about it and said he doesn't think some of the vocals are actually Michael's. Do you think it's Michael on the CD?

La Toya Jackson
I'll be frank with you, some songs are and some are not. Yes, I -- I think one or two of the songs that I heard is his voice, but the other ones, no, I don't believe that's Michael whatsoever.

http://garyduff.exci.us/ (Site's down. Question came up at 5:36 of the audio interview.)


- - -


March 5, 2012 - The Talk


Julie Chen
You know, I remember -- do you remember a little while ago there were reports, people saying, "Oh, that's not really Michael's voice"?

La Toya Jackson
Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

Julie Chen
What do you think?

La Toya Jackson
I haven't heard the complete album, but I do know some of the songs that I've heard, it's definitely -- it is not his voice.

Sheryl Underwood
Really?

La Toya Jackson
Definitely not. Nope.

Sharon Osbourne
[Gasp]

Sheryl Underwood
Really?

La Toya Jackson
No, and it's so interesting because during that time--

Sheryl Underwood
(To the audience) It's just -- it's just, I'm not going to be able to [get another chance to] ask her this. (To La Toya) What?!

La Toya Jackson
No, because--

Julie Chen
How can you tell? What gave it away to you?

La Toya Jackson
During that time, I was -- I was doing "The Apprentice" at that particular time and Paris called me and she said, "Auntie La Toya, I want you to listen to something." Because, you know, when you're doing that show you're just constantly working and you're up at 4 and you don't get home untill 12 the next [day]. And so she said, "You gotta listen to this, this is not daddy's voice," and she played it for me and I go, "Paris, you're right, it's not." And I kept listening, and kept listening and it was not his voice. And she was so concerned about it that she wanted to -- she said, "We gotta put a stop to this. We must put a stop to this, and I'm not gonna let them get by with this." This is a little girl. This is the way she thinks, because she loves her father, and she didn't want to see that out there when it wasn't her father's voice. And she went on to say this is the person who impersonates him and he's very good with it.

Sheryl Underwood
Wow.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/the_talk/video/2205764438/the-talk-3-5-2012 (Question comes up at 10:00.)


* * *


If there's anything I'm missing, please tell me.
 
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ADKIc3mAnX said:
Yeah the masters are in some vaults that are controlled by Michael Jackson's estate and Sony.
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Yes, but digital vaults, something like hard drives. And hackers entered in those vaults and stole many unreleased demos and songs (Cascio raw demos, Hollywood Tonight Demo, I Am A Loser Demo...)
 
Calisto said:
July 1, 2011 - Gary Duff
La Toya Jackson
I'll be frank with you, some songs are and some are not. Yes, I -- I think one or two of the songs that I heard is his voice, but the other ones, no, I don't believe that's Michael whatsoever.



March 5, 2012 - The Talk
La Toya Jackson
I haven't heard the complete album, but I do know some of the songs that I've heard, it's definitely -- it is not his voice.
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Hmm!
Its odd that LaToya has heard all the songs July 2011 but March 2012 she has heard only some of the songs?
LaToya should stop talking if she cannot keep track on what she says in one program, and what she says on next (better yet, she should be off the air altogether).
 
Bubs said:
Hmm!
Its odd that LaToya has heard all the songs July 2011 but March 2012 she has heard only some of the songs?
LaToya should stop talking if she cannot keep track on what she says in one program, and what she says on next (better yet, she should be off the air altogether).
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Ah, but she didn't specifically say that she listened to the entire album in the Gary Duff interview. She merely said, "of the songs that I heard."

La Toya's story has actually been consistent thus far. And I'm glad she's speaking out.
 
Calisto said:
Ah, but she didn't specifically say that she listened to the entire album in the Gary Duff interview. She merely said, "of the songs that I heard."

La Toya's story has actually been consistent thus far. And I'm glad she's speaking out.
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"I'll be frank with you, some songs are and some are not. Yes, I -- I think one or two of the songs that I heard is his voice, but the other ones, no, I don't believe that's Michael whatsoever."

From above sentence, I do get an impression that she has heard the album songs,at least most of them if not all.
 
mj_forever said:
i'm coming into this thread confused :( and i didn't read all 1658 pages of it.

when the controversy first cropped up, i thought, why would Sony put in fake songs? no matter how i feel about Sony, it's still a huge company and huge companies usually don't take huge risks like that. Stella says Sony didn't know, it's the Cascios who fooled us all. but Michael is their major artist! how could they not know if it's a genuine MJ or not? and as someone said on the hacking thread, why go this far to make huge $$? the Cascios could just ask media to pay them for interviews and blab all they want about MJ. or write a book, like Frank did. another thing is that Michael indeed shared many years of friendship with the Cascios. why would they turn around this viciously against him, if it is true that they got paid for fake tracks?

the Jacksons complained, but why didn't they take action? Stella, you seem to know much about the story, and you mentioned that you or the ones involved have communicated with the Jacksons repeatedly. what was their reaction? they, as against Birchey, would have the real power to confront Sony if they have proof that the tracks are fake.

in the end, maybe this shouldn't have been this messy if Sony allowed major fans with the technical know-how to participate or at least watch the process of analysis. after all, the fans are major stakeholders as well. Sony, the Estate, the Jacksons, the fans, and last but not the least, the recording engineers that Michael had worked with from album to album. was Bruce Swedien even there? and if not, why not?

edited to add: i am also questioning the wisdom of proceeding with the Cascio songs when there are many outtakes, 100% MJ songs in the vaults.
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i must second this post.

when this debate first broke out i was still new to MJs voice and went with the "facts" that made sense. i trusted (still do) Cascios more than Jacksons. but the more i listen to the songs the more off they sound. and let me say this i have NO ear for music.

i'm not sure what to believe anymore. what i know is that none of this benefitting MJ in anyway. my heart breaks for him. he's dragged into this mess once again. i think instead of fighting if the songs are fake or not fans should work together and get to the bottom of this. and hacking soney and getting yourself in a criminal mess is NOT THE WAY!

as for Paris i think it's easy to confuse a child who trust you.
 
love is magical said:
Seriously, this debate and all the legal troubles would not have happened if more information is communicated to fans. Yes, I know that not everyone wil be satisfied. But, many of us are more reasonable than what you might expect.
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I agree. That's why I think that alot of this mess could have been avoided with a more solid explanation from Sony or the estate to the fans within the first month of the song debate, which was almost five weeks or so before the album was released.
 
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^^ @maral....trust your ears....Don't think about the Cascios or the Jacksons or what they tell you ....What do YOU hear? Just food for thought ;)

No one has proof either side, but we can trust what we're hearing...When have Michael's vocals EVER been questioned to this extent? We can dish out all the excuses/explanations/reasons in the world, but maybe, just MAYBE we need to think about the most simple answer: it's not him.

I don't wanna believe his 'friends' have sold him out and betrayed him this way, but I just cannot be comfortable enough to say, 'Yes, this is Michael's voice...Doesn't sound like him, but it's his voice...His friends would never do this to him...'....

I just can't get over how the voice sounds...Not over processed, not bad studio conditions/equipment/bad day/sick with a cold/etc, etc, etc....but just sounds like another person altogether...

ETA: and I agree with you...doubters and believers alike should definitely get to the bottom of this, because whether you believe it's him or not, these songs should not have been released and as a result of our protest against this songs in the very beginning, they should have listened to us, the fans, and left those songs off the album or any future releases...they really have no business as a part of his near perfect discography...
 
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BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I am afraid I will have to terrorize you again and I am going to ruthlessly attack you so hard that people will have to call the ambulance, the firemen, the police, the psychologists and the UN blue helmets presided by Qbee (who's afraid of nuclear war between us).




Do we know anything for a fact about those analyses be it done by SONY/Estate or by anyone else? I still haven't seen any reports, nor parts that have been analysed, nor anything else. We can only speculate based on SONY's/Estate given word.




"The opposite of expected" strategy. Let's assume the tracks are fake, they (or only a few people) know it and they want to make people believe they're genuine. Their strategy wouldn't be any different especially because they are completely legally covered and unattackable as the songs have been registered and copyrighted under MJ's name without any physical trace. So, assuming they're fake, why not release them?

So, choosing to believe THEM only because they occupy the chairs of the officials deciding what is genuine or fake doesn't mean they are not questionable or reliable.



Of course, whichever strategy they choose, releasing or not, their statement will always be official. But official does not equal right thing to do or the ultimate truth. We can see every day many examples in different areas how officials mislead people into believeing many things, yet, a few years after we discover everything was done out of their own interest going as far as use some unorthodox practices.



I know some good Jackie Chan movies :D



They are especially confident in being untouchable as there os no physical trace or proof.
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This post deserves a standing ovation.

"Logic" does not always address the reality of complex financial practices or human dynamics.

We are living in a culture of corporate corruption, ESPECIALLY perpetuated by people in official positions, in power, who exploit trust and standards expected of them. Hello, Wall Street firms? Sony is a multinational corporation. And all over the world, we read of city officials who swindle unsuspecting citizens (remember City of Bell in California?).

Bumper's points are very well taken.
 
Ok, I'm not taking either side, even though I do have an opinion on this matter... When this whole discussion started, and if I am incorrect someone may correct me, it was mostly sparked and inspired by the Jackson camp. They were the first ones who stated that it wasnt Michael on these tracks... (Most notoriously his nephew i believe, who had some commercial stake in HT.) They followed this up with tweets, some TV appearances (La Toya), but in actions a deafening silence. What I mean by this is: if the Jacksons are so sure in their assertions why don't they take legal actions against the Cascio's? It is fraud at best and their (family) name is at stake. (Not to mention the integrity or the legacy of their brother/ cousin etc.) Yet, there is no legal response. (Even though they are more than willing to throw buckets of money to drag each other to court.) It is very disoncerning that there were these harsh statements at the beginning of this ordeal by the Jacksons - that is basically ripping the fanbase apart and dividing the fanclub (and now even lead to criminal offences) - but no legal actions is taken by the family. Do they know something we don't? Were they later convinced after more information came forward? Why this legal silence???

If this question is answered before, my apologies. I haven't looked at this debate for months or a year. (I kind of trailed off, when even the laws of physics were questioned to proof that the Cascio tracks were fakes.) But considering that the Jackson family started this debacle with their tweets, comments and assertions, why are they so silent now???
 
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shades said:
Ok, I'm not taking either side, even though I do have an opinion on this matter... When this whole discussion started, and if I am incorrect someone may correct me, it was mostly sparked and inspired by the Jackson camp. They were the first ones who stated that it wasnt Michael on these tracks... (Most notoriously his nephew i believe, who had some commercial stake in HT.) They followed this up with tweets, some TV appearances (La Toya), but in actions a deafening silence. What I mean by this is: if the Jacksons are so sure in their assertions why don't they take legal actions against the Cascio's? It is fraud at best and their (family) name is at stake. (Not to mention the integrity or the legacy of their brother/ cousin etc.) Yet, there is no legal response. (Even though they are more than willing to throw buckets of money to drag each other to court.) It is very disoncerning that there were these harsh statements at the beginning of this ordeal by the Jacksons - that is basically ripping the fanbase apart and dividing the fanclub (and now even lead to criminal offences) - but no legal actions is taken by the family. Do they know something we don't? Were they later convinced after more information came forward? Why this legal silence???

If this question is answered before, my apologies. I haven't looked at this debate for months or a year. (I kind of trailed off, when even the laws of physics were questioned to proof that the Cascio tracks were fakes.) But considering that the Jackson family started this debacle with their tweets, comments and assertions, why are they so silent now???
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I don't think any of us know why the Jacksons have not taken the issue to court. Perhaps it is a matter of simply not having tangible evidence that they believe would hold up in a court of law? I still hope that one they decide to take further steps though...

In any case, with regards to your question about them being convinced after more information came forward: from the recent Q&A's here at MJJC we know that at least Taj and Jermaine have not changed their opinion on the tracks (not surprisingly, since no more information has been presented since the Estate's statement...).

MJJC: About Cascio Tracks: How can you be so sure that the voice in the tracks is not real? Do you have any evidence to support that besides your own ears? Did you guys seek out experts to analyze the tape and having forensic evidence? If you believe the tracks were fake, why did you not take legal action? Did you talked to Eddie Cascio or any member of the Cascio family about the tracks before or after the album fiasco? Do you tried to reach out each other and hear both side of opinion and tried to sort thing out? Why did you feel you had to involve the public by bringing the fight on twitter? Do you take some responsibility for the major division this has created within the fan community? Do you reckon, some will FOREVER question the veracity of every new project?

Taj Jackson: That's a very sore subject, the Cascio Tracks. But just know, A LOT went on behind the scenes before things went public and plenty of time before the "Michael" track list was even finalized. I really shouldn't say anymore otherwise I might say things I'll later regret. :)
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MJJC: Do you still feel strongly against the Cascio tracks? If so then do you or any other family member's plan to make issue with any future MJ albums that include any more Cascio tracks?

Jermaine Jackson: For now, I'll say what I've always said on this issue: when has Michael's music and voice ever been released with a question mark over it, as to whether it's 100% him? I think the truth will come out one day but no, that first album is not 100% Michael and no one can talk to me about the authentic sound of my own brother's voice.
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Btw, I strongly disagree with you that it is the Jacksons' harsh statements that lead to the split in the fanbase. Many of us have explained here that prior to the premiere of Breaking News, we thought the Jacksons' statements about the authenticity of the tracks were absolute nonsense - Joe Jackson had been saying that body doubles were featured in This Is It at the time, so it fit nicely with statements of that kind.

The tracks themselves caused the division, not the Jacksons' reaction to it.
 
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SoCav said:
I don't think any of us know why the Jacksons have not taken the issue to court. Perhaps it is a matter of simply not having tangible evidence that they believe would hold up in a court of law? I still hope that one they decide to take further steps...

In any case, with regards to your question about them being convinced after more information came forward: from the recent Q&A's here at MJJC we know that at least Taj and Jermaine have not changed their opinion on the tracks (not surprisingly, since no more information has been presented since the Estate's statement...).
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It is funny that you state that they do not have "tangible" evidence, while some people in this thread are convinced that this case is proven and closed. Besides you can hire independent researchers, analysists etc. That is not in the hand of the fans, but in the hand of the ones that started these claims.

I always felt, and the above statements of Taj and Jermaine strengthen this feeling, that this for them is not about authenticity (the fans are obsessed with this); I believe for them there are commercial interests at stake and we - the fans/fanclub - is thrown in the middle of this endless battle between Sony, the Estate and the Jackson family. Do not be fooled. It is about money and *not* about their uncles and brothers legacy...
 
SoCav said:
Btw, I strongly disagree with you that it is the Jacksons' harsh statements that lead to the split in the fanbase. Many of us have explained here that prior to the premiere of Breaking News, we thought the Jacksons' statements about the authenticity of the tracks were absolute nonsense - Joe Jackson had been saying that body doubles were featured in This Is It at the time, so it fit nicely with statements of that kind.

The tracks themselves caused the division, not the Jacksons' reaction to it.
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Well, exactly...I heard vaguely what the Jackson's were saying, but seriously, I was SO pumped to hear new MJ music, I paid no attention to what they said....When I heard BN, I STILL didn't even think about what the Jackson's said...I was so perplexed by what I was hearing, I couldn't think of anything else...

Really, if people wanna play it that way, we can say the same thing to the believers - that the Estate's statement is what essentially influenced them to believe it's Mike singing....Ridiculous, right? Neither side wants that kinda nonsense pinned on them..
 
...He's Michael Jackson! He's my hero! I grew up with his music, his talent, his VOICE...That's why I'm here....We just all want the truth...if that means obsession, so be it...
 
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