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Michael - The Great Album Debate

shades said:
It is funny that you state that they do not have "tangible" evidence, while some people in this thread are convinced that this case is proven and closed. Besides you can hire independent researchers, analysists etc. That is not in the hand of the fans, but in the hand of the ones that started these claims.

I always felt, and the above statements of Taj and Jermaine strengthen this feeling, that this for them is not about authenticity (the fans are obsessed with this); I believe for them there are commercial interests at stake and we - the fans/fanclub - is thrown in the middle of this endless battle between Sony, the Estate and the Jackson family. Do not be fooled. It is about money and *not* about their uncles and brothers legacy...
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There is of course a difference in what is considered evidence in a court of law and what people may consider evidence when making up their own minds. Comparison clips might not hold up in a court room, but might be very convincing for people who are forming an opinion on these tracks.

I personally feel very strongly that Michael is not singing lead vocals on those tracks and that Jason Malachi is. Nevertheless, I realize that it is one thing to feel very sure of that and quite another to proof this in court. I think most people who make statements such as "it is obvious it is Jason Malachi" or "it is 100% clear it is not Michael" would agree with that and make similar distinctions.
 
SoCav said:
Btw, I strongly disagree with you that it is the Jacksons' harsh statements that lead to the split in the fanbase. Many of us have explained here that prior to the premiere of Breaking News, we thought the Jacksons' statements about the authenticity of the tracks were absolute nonsense - Joe Jackson had been saying that body doubles were featured in This Is It at the time, so it fit nicely with statements of that kind.

The tracks themselves caused the division, not the Jacksons' reaction to it.
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Well, I strongly disagree with this. *Before* "Michael" was released the statements of the Jacksons (and authenticity) was released (and blown up) in every media outlet. This created pre-conceived notions at best and arguments even *before* the album was released. So the doubt was already cast before everyone heard the songs; I think no one - even non-Michael Jackson fans - listened to these songs with an open and objective mind. Or to put it differently, and this is a psychological and proven process, if some "thought" is already planted, our brains will automatically search for hints or notions to proof our subconscious convictions...

And I believe that the whole "body double" has been debunked by multiple people who were present during the rehearsals...

But this is spiralling us back in the endless circle argument that cost this discussion 1660 pages. My question is more straight forward: if the Jacksons are so sure about the fraud Sony is committing on such a large scale (the movie, the album etc.), why aren't they taking legal actions against Sony or Cascio? Even more importantly, and this question I think has been not put forward (enough); what financial benefits do Joe, Taj and Jermaine have in questioning everything Sony does? There are other motives at play here. (The multiple lawsuits of Joe seem to indicate this.) But these motives are never discussed or made clear. It seems to me that we are fighting the fight that the family should be fighting...
 
shades said:
And I believe that the whole "body double" has been debunked by multiple people who were present during the rehearsals...
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I believe the whole body double issue has been debunked by those of us who have eyes....I don't think anyone need multiple people at rehearsals to confirm that for us...
 
SoCav said:
There is of course a difference in what is considered evidence in a court of law and what people may consider evidence when making up their own minds. Comparison clips might not hold up in a court room, but might be very convincing for people who are forming an opinion on these tracks.

I personally feel very strongly that Michael is not singing lead vocals on those tracks and that Jason Malachi is. Nevertheless, I realize that it is one thing to feel very sure of that and quite another to proof this in court. I think most people who make statements such as "it is obvious it is Jason Malachi" or "it is 100% clear it is not Michael" would agree with that and make similar distinctions.
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Here again, this is a circular argument and not answering the point I am trying to make. If it is so "obvious" as you and others claim, than it can be objectively (and independently) analysed. Voice analysis have been done. And voice analysis by independent researchers will hold up in any court. The question is: why has this not been done, by the ones that have the resources - no, even more than that, the *obligation* - to do so?

My question is not: are the Cascios songs fake or not? (This discussion is endless and at this point pointless.) My question is: why does the Jackson family not take the responsibility it should take? It is easy to write on twitter. It is easy to say "this is fake, because I recognize my brothers voice" etc. But than take the extra mile and *proof* it. Fight the fight. Instead of throwing statements here and there (and for what purpose?)...
 
shades said:
Well, I strongly disagree with this. *Before* "Michael" was released the statements of the Jacksons (and authenticity) was released (and blown up) in every media outlet. This created pre-conceived notions at best and arguments even *before* the album was released. So the doubt was already cast for everyone heard the songs; I think no one - even non Michael Jackson fans - listened to these songs with an open and objective mind. Or to put it differently, and this is a psychological and proven process, if some "thought" is already planted, our brains will automatically search for hints or notions to proof our subconscious opinions...
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Okay, I guess you do want to 'play it that way' as Arklove said. :lol:

If you go back and read the topics on this forum from early November 2010, you will see that hardly anybody took the Jacksons' seriously. Like I said in my previous post, they were far from a credible source for most of us here. Most people just disregarded what they said and continued to enthusiastically talk about the upcoming album. If anything, the subconscious opinion would thus be that 'the Jacksons are talking rubbish'. Surely our brains would have been searching for hints to proof this notion, rather than the opposite as you suggest.

Now, it is also a very well-established psychological principle in the literature of social influence that people are automatically inclined to accept information that comes from an authority source. Which brings us to the Estate statement. I do remember being quite surprised by the change in poll results about the authenticity of Breaking News before and after the statement was released. I guess many people who initially felt the songs were fake were swayed by the statement, despite the fact that we did not really see any hard proof at all. I remember going nuts because some people were even saying that Sony had replaced the stream on the website and that they now "did hear Michael," even though a comparison of recordings of the two showed that the waveform was absolutely identical (not to mention that they sounded exactly the same).

Like Arklove said, you can make these kinds of arguments on both sides. I agree with you that this leads us nowhere (though I cannot deny that I do honestly believe you can make a stronger case for the the authority argument than the one you presented).

shades said:
But this is spiralling us back in the endless circle argument that cost this discussion 1660 pages. My question is more straight forward: if the Jacksons are so sure about the fraud Sony is committing on such a large scale (the movie, the album etc.), why aren't they taking legal actions against Sony or Cascio? Even more importantly, and this question I think has been not put forward (enough); what financial benefits do Joe, Taj and Jermaine have in questioning everything Sony does? There are other motives at play here. (The multiple lawsuits of Joe seem to indicate this.) But these motives are never discussed or made clear. It seems to me that we are fighting the fight that the family should be fighting...
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I sort of agree with you here. I too wonder why they never decided to take this to court. But then again, many of the family's actions boggle my mind...
 
shades said:
Here again, this is a circular argument and not answering the point I am trying to make. If it is so "obvious" as you and others claim, than it can be objectively (and independently) analysed. Voice analysis have been done. And voice analysis by independent researchers will hold up in any court. The question is: why has this not been done, by the ones that have the resources - no, even more than that, the *obligation* - to do so?

My question is not: are the Cascios songs fake or not? (This discussion is endless and at this point pointless.) My question is: why does the Jackson family not take the responsibility it should take? It is easy to write on twitter. It is easy to say "this is fake, because I recognize my brothers voice" etc. But than take the extra mile and *proof* it. Fight the fight. Instead of throwing statements here and there (and for what purpose?)...
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I don't think we pretend to have all the answers especially regarding the Jackson's behavior.

In this debate I saw a lot of theories and possible explanations but the truth is nobody provided us with proofs yet. Not even Sony/Estate.

That's why we're still here.
 
That statement did EXACTLY what it intended: to placate fans.

Nothing more.
 
shades said:
...The question is: why has this not been done, by the ones that have the resources - no, even more than that, the *obligation* - to do so?

My question is: why does the Jackson family not take the responsibility it should take?
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Answer: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

OT: heck yes to the awesome new BAD skin for mjjc ;) it's great
 
lucilla said:
I don't think we pretend to have all the answers especially regarding the Jackson's behavior.

In this debate I saw a lot of theories and possible explanations but the truth is nobody provided us with proofs yet. Not even Sony/Estate.

That's why we're still here.
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Uhu...I never would spend this much time on things other people said.

It's because my ears don't hear Michael. That what it's still comes down too. And no one can make me hear something I don't or the other way around.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I think that we really shouldn't be that concerned because as far as I see both believers and doubters know HT is MJ regardless of what Paris or any member of the Jackson family says.

This is simply old news. Some newspapers have no other "scandals" to write in order to attract attention, so they're recycling old stuff. And the other newspapers as usual are just copy-pasting THE "news" warapping it as NEW the same way some producers copy-pasted vocals from Invincible to the Cascio songs and wrapped them as NEW.
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Kinda funny how people always talk about Copy & Pastes in music when it's been there since forever and MJ himself has done it before so IDK what's the point of this.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Kinda funny how people always talk about Copy & Pastes in music when it's been there since forever and MJ himself has done it before so IDK what's the point of this.
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Yup, Michael Jackson made only one album in his career, and all the rest he did was successfully copy-pasting.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Kinda funny how people always talk about Copy & Pastes in music when it's been there since forever and MJ himself has done it before so IDK what's the point of this.
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Can you name one non-Cascio song in which single words were copy/pasted from an older MJ record to complete sentences?

Yeah, sampling has been here forever. MJ has done it too, often in creative ways. Copy/pasting vocals from older records to complete sentences and passing them off as new lead vocals is a totally different matter though.
 
shades said:
Well, I strongly disagree with this. *Before* "Michael" was released the statements of the Jacksons (and authenticity) was released (and blown up) in every media outlet. This created pre-conceived notions at best and arguments even *before* the album was released. So the doubt was already cast before everyone heard the songs; I think no one - even non-Michael Jackson fans - listened to these songs with an open and objective mind. Or to put it differently, and this is a psychological and proven process, if some "thought" is already planted, our brains will automatically search for hints or notions to proof our subconscious convictions...

And I believe that the whole "body double" has been debunked by multiple people who were present during the rehearsals...

But this is spiralling us back in the endless circle argument that cost this discussion 1660 pages. My question is more straight forward: if the Jacksons are so sure about the fraud Sony is committing on such a large scale (the movie, the album etc.), why aren't they taking legal actions against Sony or Cascio? Even more importantly, and this question I think has been not put forward (enough); what financial benefits do Joe, Taj and Jermaine have in questioning everything Sony does? There are other motives at play here. (The multiple lawsuits of Joe seem to indicate this.) But these motives are never discussed or made clear. It seems to me that we are fighting the fight that the family should be fighting...
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I didn't even know that the Jackson had question the songs when i first heard Breaking News. I didn't know that there was already controversy concerning the songs. In fact, it is now that i learn that the Jackson family had question the album before it was released. So i wasn't brainwashed by the Jacksons, i didn't hate the Cascios and i didn't even know who Jason Malachi was. My opinion on Breaking News and on the other Cascio songs came simply be hearing the songs. And the more i listened to them, the more i was convinced that it's not MJ singing on them. I'm sure that most of the fans who believe the same as me, weren't influenced by Jackson opinion on the songs. They just have ears and hear and what they hear is not what it was supposed to be.
 
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teli-mj said:
I didn't even know that the Jackson had question the songs when i first heard Breaking News. I didn't know that there was already controversy concerning the songs. In fact, it is now that i learn that the Jackson family had question the album before it was released. So i wasn't brainwashed by the Jacksons, i didn't hate the Cascios and i didn't even know who Jason Malachi was. My opinion on Breaking News and on the other Cascio songs came simply be hearing the songs. And the more i listened to them, the more i was convinced that it's not MJ singing on them. I'm sure that most of the fans who believe the same as me, weren't influenced by Jackson opinion on the songs. They just have ears and hear and what they hear is not what it was supposed to be.
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Maybe it is different for you but I think most of what we call the "doubters" were not living under a rock and were perfectly aware what T Jackson tweeted. But maybe it is not that relevant after all... I know that in chatting rooms there was already lobbying against the new album long before T's tweets. I can name people (but I won't) that I know from another wellknown forum coming here to a password protected mjjc chatroom (that then existed) to chat in first place a anti Sony lobby. This is the reason why I always doubted the "doubters" strategies. (And that stands loose from what I think about the authenticity of the tracks.) There's from the very start been made and shared a "credo" among doubters and that's what make me doubt the "doubters". (Period.) I won't elaborate and I'm sorry for my thoughts... I didn't want to think like this.
 
Garden said:
Maybe it is different for you but I think most of what we call the "doubters" were not living under a rock and were perfectly aware what T Jackson tweeted. But maybe it is not that relevant after all... I know that in chatting rooms there was already lobbying against the new album long before T's tweets. I can name people (but I won't) that I know from another wellknown forum coming here to a password protected mjjc chatroom (that then existed) to chat in first place a anti Sony lobby. This is the reason why I always doubted the "doubters" strategies. (And that stands loose from what I think about the authenticity of the tracks.) There's from the very start been made and shared a "credo" among doubters and that's what make me doubt the "doubters". (Period.) I won't elaborate and I'm sorry for my thoughts... I didn't want to think like this.
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I am sorry but there is no doubters' strategy at all. You listen to the songs by yourself for yourself, you think they are authentic or not, and that's about it. No strategy needed when listening to something.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I am sorry but there is no doubters' strategy at all. You listen to the songs by yourself for yourself, you think they are authentic or not, and that's about it. No strategy needed when listening to something.
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Some strategies even came from a dutch speaking corner, not from you (I think!), but from a female fan. I personally have had some texts she wrote and distributed to other fans, but I have deleted my copies a long time ago. You don't have to believe me if you don't like to. I don't talk about the authenticity of the tracks but about strategies. I can name a fan from dutch speaking origin but perfectly english speaking,(but I won't name her). I know her from another wellknown forum and she gathered people coming here to a password protected mjjc chatroom (that then existed) to chat in first place a anti Sony lobby. (edited to add data) But I hate to write down this thing, it doesn't bring fans together and it doesn't help... I just wanted to say that probably (many?) fans didn't start from a white page in their perception of the album.
 
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@ Garden, because we're called 'doubters' in general, doesn't mean we're all the same in our approach towards 'new' songs/albums and/or Sony/The Estate.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, btw.
 
@ Garden, because we're called 'doubters' in general, doesn't mean we're all the same in our approach towards 'new' songs/albums and/or Sony/The Estate.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, btw.
 
Chamife said:
@ Garden, because we're called 'doubters' in general, doesn't mean we're all the same in our approach towards 'new' songs/albums and/or Sony/The Estate. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, btw.
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You're welcome Chamife. You know what I am speaking about, don't you? But anyway, I better not go too much off topic, this thread is about the album, not about the fans.
 
Garden said:
You're welcome Chamife. You know what I am speaking about, don't you? But anyway, I better not go too much off topic, this thread is about the album, not about the fans.
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Not sure..., but I contacted several members on MJFC if they cared to join in a project to hire a forensic musicspecialist? Is that what you are talking about? Or are you talking about another Dutch fan?

And maybe I wrote more, but I can't remember...it had nothing to do with Sony anyway.
 
Garden said:
You're welcome Chamife. You know what I am speaking about, don't you? But anyway, I better not go too much off topic, this thread is about the album, not about the fans.
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As far as I am concerned I have no slightest idea who did any kind of anti-SONY lobbying (other than disatisfaction by the release of the songs) after 1600 pages. BTW, I don't see how this can influence anyone when listening to the songs and ultimately, other than heated debate among fans who individually hears what, I really don't see any kind of strategy or agenda.

Anyway, I dare to hope that people base their opinion on what they hear and not on who says what.
 
Chamife said:
Not sure..., but I contacted several members on MJFC if they cared to join in a project to hire a forensic musicspecialist? Is that what you are talking about? Or are you talking about another Dutch fan? And maybe I wrote more, but I can't remember...it had nothing to do with Sony anyway.
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That I can only applaud Chamife! No it was another time, before the release of the album and it were anti Sony gatherings. Why I wrote "I think you know what I'm talking about" is because on a certain occasion (on maxjax) we met and something made me think you were the one. Of course we all hide behind nicknames and that's a good thing. Chamife I have nothing against gathering anti Sony or whatever. I only dislike when fans think/act like the page was white when the album appeared, it wasn't. (edited)
 
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shades said:
but no legal actions is taken by the family. Do they know something we don't? Were they later convinced after more information came forward? Why this legal silence???
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rumor (that is kinda proven) is that they have seen the reports of the authentication research. obviously they don't agree with it - such as Randy Jackson claiming the results are fakes as well ( he said I don't know what the analysists heard - definitely not what I heard and they work pay). Plus Randy Jackson already confirmed the vocal analysist by saying "And I wasn't there when they did their analysis".

So in short they might still disagree and not believe to the results presented to them but at the same time they can realize they have nothing against these vocal analysis other than their opinion.

SoCav said:
we thought the Jacksons' statements about the authenticity of the tracks were absolute nonsense - Joe Jackson had been saying that body doubles were featured in This Is It at the time, so it fit nicely with statements of that kind.
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SoCav said:
If you go back and read the topics on this forum from early November 2010, you will see that hardly anybody took the Jacksons' seriously.
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I don't think all Jacksons are treated the same. Yes many do not take Joe or Latoya seriously but the same cannot be said about 3T. If you indeed look back , you'll see people being happy of 3T being with Michael's kids , supporting them at Grammys, being an advisor and so on. For many people 3T was close to Michael and Michael named them as contingent beneficiaries and so on. So how 3T was seen and treated was a lot different than how Joe is treated.
 
Garden said:
That I can only applaud Chamife! No it was another time, before the release of the album and it were anti Sony gatherings. Why I wrote "I think you know what I'm talking about" is because on a certain occasion (on maxjax) we met and something made me think you were the one. Of course we all hide behind nicknames and that's a good thing. Me, I am Garden in most places :). Chamife I have nothing against gathering anti Sony or whatever. I only dislike when fans think/act like the page was white when the album appeared, it wasn't. (edited)
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Well, let me introduce myself then..: Mrs.Mike and later on NoLimits, because I left the forum, which I later on regretted, but couldn't use my old name again...:D

And I want to make it clear I never organised something 'underground'. Or initiate a hetze against Sony.

(Just in case there are any doubts)
 
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Hi Ivy, I can see you lurking.

Edited to add: now I can't see you any more.

Edited to add: I can see you again.
 
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Chamife said:
Well, let me introduce myself then..: Mrs.Mike and later on NoLimits, because I left the forum, which I later on regretted, but couldn't use my old name again...:D

And I want to make it clear I never organised something 'underground'. Or instigated a hetze against Sony.

(Just in case there are any doubts)
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It's the first time in 1600 pages that I read that someone had organized 'underground' lobby against SONY. And anyway, even if true, I don't see how this can influence anyone as far as vocal authenticity is concerned. I've always naively thought that people make up their opinions after listening to the voice, not after reading some 'underground lobbists' or comments in this thread.

Now I am starting to wonder who actually did change their opinion simply after reading the comments and not after listening to the voice among any of the doubters?
 
Chamife said:
Well, let me introduce myself then..: Mrs.Mike and later on NoLimits, because I left the forum, which I later on regretted, but couldn't use my old name again...:D And I want to make it clear I never organised something 'underground'. Or instigated a hetze against Sony. (Just in case there are any doubts)
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Well, that's clear then, Chamife, you were not the one ! I am sorry if I made you feel "suspected"... but anyway it was a female Dutch speaking fan. Doesn't matter who it was, does it :). I appreciate your transparency now very much!
 
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