Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Garden]

@ Bumper : Hm... I would like to say something but I am not a "doubter" but a "don't knower". From the comments, from the very very start, first moments after release, I thought : "these comments = conspiracy against Sony". Because I knew of chatroom gatherings, spreading texts and also some people were already known as very vocal in a thread about the expecting of the album. I read all posts from the anouncement of the coming album on... It's just these comments that made me refuse to think as a then "classical" doubter. I was and am a "don't knower". About listening : some moments I hear Michael in some lines/words, some moments I don't know if I hear him or some one else. So I don't know, but I am still interested to see if new facts come out, and I care about fairplay and transparency in what goes among fans. I am a "not knower" .

 

[Chamife]

Well, that's clear then, Chamife, you were not the one ! I am sorry if I made you feel "suspected"... but anyway it was a female Dutch speaking fan. Doesn't matter who it was, does it . I appreciate your transparency now very much!

Geen probleem. Heb nooit problemen met iemand gehad, maar schrok wel een beetje toen je dit zei, hahaha!

Like I said before, appreciate your thoughts on this matter!

 

[azsummergirl]

@Garden give yourself more credit, you DO know. The reason some parts sound like michael is because some parts ARE michael. and also because they worked very hard to make it sounds like him. The fact that you have any doubts at all should be the red flag. Listen with your heart--listen to "fall in love." the truth is right there if you listen for it.

 

[Garden]

@Garden give yourself more credit, you DO know. The reason some parts sound like michael is because some parts ARE michael. and also because they worked very hard to make it sounds like him. The fact that you have any doubts at all should be the red flag. Listen with your heart--listen to "fall in love." the truth is right there if you listen for it.

Azsummergirl, this has nothing to do with giving myself credit or not. I have the right to not knowing, it is not a thing putting myself down or a shameful thing. I followed all discussions about it here and on maxjax, I know of the different possibilities that are discussed and I can think about the not /or probability of those... but I still don't know, because the whole thing is technically not transparant enough, that's not our fault, and for (my) hearing, I believe that is not a thing I can trust in an absolute way. And this is not a question of giving myself not enough credit. Anyway thanks for trying to understand me.

 

[Garden]

Geen probleem. Heb nooit problemen met iemand gehad, maar schrok wel een beetje toen je dit zei, hahaha! Like I said before, appreciate your thoughts on this matter!

Dank je, ik apprecieer erg je houding in deze conversatie! Hug from me {}

 

[SoCav]

@ Bumper : Hm... I would like to say something but I am not a "doubter" but a "don't knower". From the comments, from the very very start, first moments after release, I thought : "these comments = conspiracy against Sony". Because I knew of chatroom gatherings, spreading texts and also some people were already known as very vocal in a thread about the expecting of the album. I read all posts from the anouncement of the coming album on... It's just these comments that made me refuse to think as a then "classical" doubter. I was and am a "don't knower". About listening : some moments I hear Michael in somTo bee lines/words, some moments I don't know if I hear him or some one else. So I don't know, but I am still interested to see if new facts come out, and I care about fairplay and transparency in what goes among fans. I am a "not knower" .

I too had no clue about any boycotting plans prior to the release of Breaking News, so they did not affect me in any way either. To be honest, I always thought the anti-Sony brigade was a relatively small group of fans. I think there has been a decent proportion of fans who have disliked Sony ever since 2002, but think many of them would still buy the album anyway ("to support Michael," etc). Anyway, unless this was a massive covert operation that I somehow missed, I really do not think many people knew about this, let alone were affected by it. I for one was extremely excited in the days prior to the streaming of Breaking News, listening to that 40 second snippet endlessly, talking about the album with friends and waking up to listen to the song (I am never doing that again. Ah, who am I kidding, of course I am. :lol: Just with a tremendous sense of trepidation rather than unbridled excitement). So I do not think there is such a thing as a "classical doubter." We just agree to varying degrees that MJ is not the one singing those songs.

 

[ivy]

Now I am starting to wonder who actually did change their opinion simply after reading the comments and not after listening to the voice among any of the doubters?

I don't think anyone is claiming that opinions are based on something written but some of you are forgetting what happened. Let's go back:

We knew that an album was coming and we had a thread discussing it. We had insiders (some not really insiders) giving us information. One legit insider Ella (or something like that) from Italy who works on promotions gave us pretty solid info. Initially the release date was before thanksgiving and it made sense as it was before the holiday and shopping season. Then suddenly there was a delay, Ella said it as there are matters to be handled but didn't give any details. That delay was discussed extensively.

Then enter Roger Friedman, one month or so before the first release he started writing about explaining the delay - that we already knew, he said 3T was saying it wasn't Michael and so on. One day he said there was an agreement between the parties. At that time Taj responded to Friedman saying that they didn't agree. Again all was widely discussed.

Then came the album announcement and the 30 second Breaking News that only had an "awwww" from Michael. I guess you forget but at that time everyone was "is it Michael?", "isn't it him?", "too short to tell" and so on. So nobody is saying that opinions was based on what is being written but what is being written had clearly introduced "is it Michael or not?" question to the minds of everyone.

One week later when full Breaking News was to stream and we were waiting for the song to be put online at midnight, you again had 3T start tweeting soon before (like a half hour before) and after the release about the songs being not Michael.

So again unless you were living under a rock, it was common knowledge that there was a debate about authenticity and the question and fan approach of "is it Michael or not?" had been already introduced weeks before the first song stream.

 

[love is magical]

@ Garden, because we're called 'doubters' in general, doesn't mean we're all the same in our approach towards 'new' songs/albums and/or Sony/The Estate.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, btw.

Thank you for this. My opinion on the Cascio tracks do not make me a Sony/the Estate "hater." I own CD's released by Sony, two Sony TV's and two Sony Blu-ray disc players. I support almost all of the ventures by the Estate. I'm going to see the Immortal show in a few weeks.

However, I'm okay with people who choose not to support projects released posthumously. That doesn't mean these people are against Michael. In my opinion, this is a misconception. Many people would rather buy another Thriller and gift it to a friend than buy Michael or Immortal. Aren't they supporting Michael's music as well?

To me, the Estate is just an artificial entity set up to manage Michael's business. It's not a continuation of Michael Jackson. I still don't see how the Estate is now Michael Jackson. Legally, yes. However, artistically, they can not be farthest away.

 

[love is magical]

Kinda funny how people always talk about Copy & Pastes in music when it's been there since forever and MJ himself has done it before so IDK what's the point of this.

Actually, I don't know what's the point you are trying to make. Care to educate us on when Michael Jackson recycled his own grunts, breathings, ad libs from his prior songs?

Michael Jackson was the kind of artist who held onto Earth Song for seven years. His creative process was always meticulous. Quincy Jones even commented on Michael's "ass power" - that Michael would spend hours in the studio recording harmonies and backgrounds. Michael Jackson was not the kind of artist ran out of the studio after laying down his lead vocals. Was he the kind of artist who would be satisfied with blatant copying and pasting?

It'd be more fair if you simply said the shameless copying and pasting is an avoidable attempt to dress up the bare-bond demos than saying Michael did copy and paste words to complete a sentence himself. It almost feels like an attack to Michael's integrity as an artist.

 

[SoCav]

I don't think all Jacksons are treated the same. Yes many do not take Joe or Latoya seriously but the same cannot be said about 3T. If you indeed look back , you'll see people being happy of 3T being with Michael's kids , supporting them at Grammys, being an advisor and so on. For many people 3T was close to Michael and Michael named them as contingent beneficiaries and so on. So how 3T was seen and treated was a lot different than how Joe is treated.

That is definitely true, but their statements did come in a string of actions by the Jacksons that annoyed many people. Remember that that horrible Opis None (was that the name) remix was also premiered as a new song by Howard Mann, shortly before the premiere of Breaking News. I think that many people were quite annoyed by all of this, especially because most of us here were just excited about the upcoming album (there were also several people back then who argued that the family was purposely trying to make the album fail because of their relationship with the estate). Also do not forget that we have been talking about this issue for 1,5 years and got used to it, but that the idea that fake songs would end up on a Michael Jackson album was just incomprehensible at the time. Prior to the streaming of BN, such claims just seemed utterly ridiculous.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I don't think anyone is claiming that opinions are based on something written but some of you are forgetting what happened. Let's go back:

We knew that an album was coming and we had a thread discussing it. We had insiders (some not really insiders) giving us information. One legit insider Ella (or something like that) from Italy who works on promotions gave us pretty solid info. Initially the release date was before thanksgiving and it made sense as it was before the holiday and shopping season. Then suddenly there was a delay, Ella said it as there are matters to be handled but didn't give any details. That delay was discussed extensively.

Then enter Roger Friedman, one month or so before the first release he started writing about explaining the delay - that we already knew, he said 3T was saying it wasn't Michael and so on. One day he said there was an agreement between the parties. At that time Taj responded to Friedman saying that they didn't agree. Again all was widely discussed.

Then came the album announcement and the 30 second Breaking News that only had an "awwww" from Michael. I guess you forget but at that time everyone was "is it Michael?", "isn't it him?", "too short to tell" and so on. So nobody is saying that opinions was based on what is being written but what is being written had clearly introduced "is it Michael or not?" question to the minds of everyone.

One week later when full Breaking News was to stream and we were waiting for the song to be put online at midnight, you again had 3T start tweeting soon before (like a half hour before) and after the release about the songs being not Michael.

So again unless you were living under a rock, it was common knowledge that there was a debate about authenticity and the question and fan approach of "is it Michael or not?" had been already introduced weeks before the first song stream.

Paris introduced the idea that HT is fake a year ago. Nobody bought that. (Well in this thread anyway)
Latoya introduced the idea that half of the album is fake. Nobody buys it.
When Opis None came out nobody bought it.

And many people heard songs without knowing who were the Cascios and which songs were actually the Cascio songs, yet they didn't recognize Michael, and I have been one of them. I will never forget the feeling when I heard Monster for the first time. It only confirmed that it was the same vocalist as on BN, and back then when I first heard it I had no clue that Monster was a Cascio song. I found it out later inhere.

That's why I said, I hope to dare that people make up thei ropinion on what they hear regardless of who says what.

 

[Garden]

Thank you for this. My opinion on the Cascio tracks do not make me a Sony/the Estate "hater." I own CD's released by Sony, two Sony TV's and two Sony Blu-ray disc players. I support almost all of the ventures by the Estate. I'm going to see the Immortal show in a few weeks. However, I'm okay with people who choose not to support projects released posthumously. That doesn't mean these people are against Michael. In my opinion, this is a misconception. Many people would rather buy another Thriller and gift it to a friend than buy Michael or Immortal. Aren't they supporting Michael's music as well? To me, the Estate is just an artificial entity set up to manage Michael's business. It's not a continuation of Michael Jackson. I still don't see how the Estate is now Michael Jackson. Legally, yes. However, artistically, they can not be farthest away.

I can agree with this Love is Magical. Though my name is in the quote above your post, it's not me who said things that go against the thoughts in your post.

 

[ivy]

Paris introduced the idea that HT is fake a year ago. Nobody bought that. (Well in this thread anyway)

Paris introduced the idea after the song release and handwritten notes by Michael was public knowledge. No one with knowledge would have taken that seriously. However you have seen a lot of people - not necessarily die hard fans - take what Paris said on face value. So what is being said can influence people.

Latoya introduced the idea that half of the album is fake. Nobody buys it.

I already explained that Latoya or Joe is not the same thing as 3T.

When Opis None came out nobody bought it.

Remix of an already released song. Again it didn't involve too much need for information. If you listened to MJ and Jacksons you knew it wasn't a new song.

And many people heard songs without knowing who were the Cascios and which songs were actually the Cascio songs, yet they didn't recognize Michael, and I have been one of them.

I hope to dare that people make up thei ropinion on what they hear regardless of who says what.

To be clear : I'm not talking about you or me in specifics, I'm talking in general terms. You might not be affected by what Paris said but it doesn't change the fact that there are people that believes what she says. In regards to the Cascio songs there could be people basing their opinions on what was said - by either party - rather than what they hear.

 

[love is magical]

^^How about the tweets from Teddy Riley saying Taj or Tarryl was lying just moments before the premiere of Breaking News? Why would people choose to believe Tarryl and ignore Teddy? At that point, Teddy Riley was regarded highly in the fan community. Many (vast majority) supported Teddy and loathed Tarryl. After listening the song for the first time, many people simply didn't know what to believe. Their ears told them the voice didn't sound like Michael. However, their minds were telling them that Teddy was more credible.

 

[love is magical]

Double Post.

 

[ivy]

^^How about the tweets from Teddy Riley saying Taj or Tarryl was lying just moments before the premiere of Breaking News? Why would people choose to believe Tarryl and ignore Teddy? At that point, Teddy Riley was regarded highly in the fan community. Many (vast majority) supported Teddy and loathed Tarryl. After listening the song for the first time, many people simply didn't know what to believe. Their ears told them the voice didn't sound like Michael. However, their minds were telling them that Teddy was more credible.

Again I didn't say that the tweets caused people to say "It is Michael" or "It's not Michael". I said the tweets, the news stories etc all brought in the mindset and approach of "is it or isn't it Michael?". Yes Teddy's tweets contributed to that as well. and that's my point. No one - unless they are living under a rock or not a die hard fan - approached to this songs as "ooo a new MJ song", they approached to them as "is it Michael?". That's all.

 

[SoCav]

Again I didn't say that the tweets caused people to say "It is Michael" or "It's not Michael". I said the tweets, the news stories etc all brought in the mindset and approach of "is it or isn't it Michael?". Yes Teddy's tweets contributed to that as well. and that's my point. No one - unless they are living under a rock or not a die hard fan - approached to this songs as "ooo a new MJ song", they approached to them as "is it Michael?". That's all.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but that was really not my approach at all. I had briefly read about the Jacksons' claims, but just disregarded them. My mindset was indeed "finally, a new MJ song and album!!" I did not go to the MJ website pondering whether the song was real or not, I was haphazardly plugging in my headphones because I wanted to enjoy the song as much as possible. I was bopping my head to the first, already familiar, 40 seconds, wondering what the rest of the song would be like - not IF it would sound like Michael. I honestly think the same goes for many other people here.

 

[Lucilla]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but that was really not my approach at all. I had briefly read about the Jacksons' claims, but just disregarded them. My mindset was indeed "finally, a new MJ song and album!!" I did not go to the MJ website pondering whether the song was real or not, I was haphazardly plugging in my headphones because I wanted to enjoy the song as much as possible. I was bopping my head to the first, already familiar, 40 seconds, wondering what the rest of the song would be like - not IF it would sound like Michael. I honestly think the same goes for many other people here.

This is Exactly what happened to me.

Then I was one of those who thought that BN could be just part of a publicity work, thinking that in the album the song could be different LOL

 

[Garden]

I too had no clue about any boycotting plans prior to the release of Breaking News, so they did not affect me in any way either. To be honest, I always thought the anti-Sony brigade was a relatively small group of fans. I think there has been a decent proportion of fans who have disliked Sony ever since 2002, but think many of them would still buy the album anyway ("to support Michael," etc). Anyway, unless this was a massive covert operation that I somehow missed, I really do not think many people knew about this, let alone were affected by it. I for one was extremely excited in the days prior to the streaming of Breaking News, listening to that 40 second snippet endlessly, talking about the album with friends and waking up to listen to the song (I am never doing that again. Ah, who am I kidding, of course I am. :lol: Just with a tremendous sense of trepidation rather than unbridled excitement). So I do not think there is such a thing as a "classical doubter." We just agree to varying degrees that MJ is not the one singing those songs.

I get you, no problem . But when not all about Sony, there was lobbying all around, and from before release : against Sony, against any posthumous release, against Estate (because pro Jacksons),against Autotuning(!), against "moneymaking from Michael"... and so on. Which all I can understand but which surely influenced many fans on the net. And even if it were "small brigades" like you say it, that doesn't mean that they can't influence a lot of people. This has nothing to do with authenticity itself... It is possible to influence a lot of people. And of course, influencing is only democratic . But then I can't believe it that most of the fans here started from a white page when hearing "Michael" the first time, and that they listened and heard the album with absolutely unbiased and absolute waterproof hearing. But what do I want, of course everyone is absolutely free to believe that they absolutely know what they hear. No attacking attended, it's only my problem that I don't believe in "absolute hearing abilities" however I believe that there are big differences among people in hearing capacities. Then there are the technical aspects that can be shown... that's another part of the discussion. I 'm not talking about that of course, but about hearing. (Hey, I get tired of reading myself ).

 

[love is magical]

Again I didn't say that the tweets caused people to say "It is Michael" or "It's not Michael". I said the tweets, the news stories etc all brought in the mindset and approach of "is it or isn't it Michael?". Yes Teddy's tweets contributed to that as well. and that's my point. No one - unless they are living under a rock or not a die hard fan - approached to this songs as "ooo a new MJ song", they approached to them as "is it Michael?". That's all.

I understand your point. This is about the concept of "planting the seed of doubt." What I'm saying is that Tarryl was not the only one talking prior to the release of Breaking News. Teddy was talking a lot too. If Tarryl's tweets were the seeds of doubt, then Teddy's tweets served to reinforce confidence. Back then, Teddy was highly regarded, much more so than any of the T's for sure.

When Joe Jackson said body-double was used (seed of doubt), many people dismissed such claim. Also, Kenny Ortega refuted Joe's claim (reinforcing confidence). So, Joe's words carried no weight; despite the whole TINI campaign. Similarly, vast majority of fans dismissed Tarryl's tweets, especially after reading the tweets from Teddy. So, I don't know whether it's true that fans approached Breaking News as "is it Michael?" than as "ohhh... this is the first Michael Jackson song in nine years." I was beyond excited. I was so anxious to hear about Breaking News. Many fans in Europe stayed till 6 am in the morning to hear the streaming. You think people would stay till the break of dawn and almost break their F5 button with a mentality of "is it Michael?" rather than "oh my god... i'm going to hear the first MJ song in 9 year?"

Also, there are indeed fans who really had no idea of the controversy. Many fans did not participate in any online forum until after listening to the songs. As far as I can remember, the controversy was not widely reported and the album was not promoted. What I mean is that it's not the kind of news that is in your face all the time. The controversy wasn't any headline news. It wasn't on CNN. It wasn't on Entertainment Tonight. So, it is poosible that fans had no knowledge about the controversy. Not all fans spent hours on-line on MJ sites. As a matter of fact, some have stressed that they didn't know about the Cascio controversy at all before listening to the tracks.

 

[Garden]

Again I didn't say that the tweets caused people to say "It is Michael" or "It's not Michael". I said the tweets, the news stories etc all brought in the mindset and approach of "is it or isn't it Michael?". Yes Teddy's tweets contributed to that as well. and that's my point. No one - unless they are living under a rock or not a die hard fan - approached to this songs as "ooo a new MJ song", they approached to them as "is it Michael?". That's all.

That's also my perception of it.

 

[Garden]

error, edited

 

[Chamife]

I spent a lot of time on MJFC and I can't recall ANY conversation, thread or post about the authenticity of the vocals before the live streaming of 'Breaking News'. If there was I wouldn't have tried to hear Michael in there and be confused. There were so many new things to listen to in that one song: the melody, the instruments, the lyrics, and yeah...Michael. The thought of someone else didn't come to my mind at that point. Never heard of Jason Malachi before also. I just expected it was Michael singing and thought: That's what you get when others 'finish' it. It sounded strange altogether to me. I think I was pretty much aware of what was talked about over there and I honestly can't recall the name Cascio was mentioned there. There was however much debate about whether it was a right thing to let others 'finish' his work (not meaning vocals, of course) I wasn't in favour of that at that time.

I feel that maybe the debate about the authenticity of the vocals merely was on other forums, which I didn't visit at that time. Living under a rock? Yeah, maybe so...

Garden, you were there too...can you recall people talking about The Cascio's and impersonators on there before 'Breaking News' streamed?

 

[ivy]

Garden, you were there too...can you recall people talking about The Cascio's and impersonators on there before 'Breaking News' streamed?

people weren't talking about impersonators here either. there was discussion of "is it or isn't it Michael?". I don't remember anyone mentioning Malachi before the song streamed but one of the 3T mentioned Malachi within minutes the songs was streamed.

 

[Pentum]

I said it was Jason Malachi within very few minutes of the stream.

 

[kreen]

Listen with your heart--listen to "fall in love." the truth is right there if you listen for it.

And here we have, in one short sentence, everything that is wrong with the anti-Cascio position. Never mind that such a hoax would be impossible to think of and carry out, never mind that it would be impossible to keep everybody involved quiet, never mind that no lawsuit has been filled by the very people who would know and would care if there had been a hoax, never mind that nothing fits -- the dates, the personalities involved, the aftermath, never mind all of that : if "you listen with your heart", you will know those Cascio songs form the greatest, most improbable and most successful fraud in the history of modern music.

 

[Chamife]

people weren't talking about impersonators here either. there was discussion of "is it or isn't it Michael?". I don't remember anyone mentioning Malachi before the song streamed but one of the 3T mentioned Malachi within minutes the songs was streamed.

That's what I mean with impersonators: if it was or wasn't Michael. Maybe I used the wrong word. There wasn't any discussion about that as far as I can remember, so I personally wasn't influenced by that whilst listening to the song.
By things I read later on I got more and more convinced it wasn't Michael.

I said it was Jason Malachi within very few minutes of the stream.

Yes, you knew Jason's voice well. Me, on the other hand, expected to hear Michael and thought it sounded very strange. I wasn't that enthousiastic as some other fans, that's what I remember. My attitude was very reserved. (It's been a while ago, lol)

 

[Garden]

I spent a lot of time on MJFC and I can't recall ANY conversation, thread or post about the authenticity of the vocals before the live streaming of 'Breaking News'. If there was I wouldn't have tried to hear Michael in there and be confused. There were so many new things to listen to in that one song: the melody, the instruments, the lyrics, and yeah...Michael. The thought of someone else didn't come to my mind at that point. Never heard of Jason Malachi before also. I just expected it was Michael singing and thought: That's what you get when others 'finish' it. It sounded strange altogether to me. I think I was pretty much aware of what was talked about over there and I honestly can't recall the name Cascio was mentioned there. There was however much debate about whether it was a right thing to let others 'finish' his work (not meaning vocals, of course) I wasn't in favour of that at that time. I feel that maybe the debate about the authenticity of the vocals merely was on other forums, which I didn't visit at that time. Living under a rock? Yeah, maybe so... Garden, you were there too...can you recall people talking about The Cascio's and impersonators on there before 'Breaking News' streamed?

Indeed there was no talk about Cascio's and impersonators on the forums . I only said that someone there was gathering fans for talking about Sony and not wanting an album, there were PM's done and there were hints in a thread, and they came together regularly in a password protected chatroom on MJJC. To me it looked like a lobbying.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I said it was Jason Malachi within very few minutes of the stream.

Me too. Especially when I heard the word "stalking" (stocking) in the song Monster. It struck me immediately and I posted it immediately in the forum (I think it was in the Mosnter thread at that time).

A year after some research, I found out that in Maryland's dialect the words in "-alk-" like talk, walk, stalk, etc. are pronounced as "-ock-", so talk is pronounced "tock", walk = "wock" and stalk = "stock", just like the singer in the song Monster.

When I heard Stay for the first time, I found it extremely unusual, first to hear such a voice timbre, second to hear the word "waiting" clearly pronounced with the "t" ellision = "wa'ing". It struck me. Guess what, in Maryland dialect speakers elide "t"s in the middle of the words.

In "Breaking News" towards the end you clearly hear unusual voice timbre singing/shouting "breaking the news" with lots of either difficulties (actually it's a copy paste of words in the midfdle of the sentence) or actually what sounds very much like Jason's voice "breaking the news".

When I heard Soldier Boy, the way the word "victim" is pronounced is first of all extremely strange, as if the voice was either choked or copy-pasted. Very unnatural.

Water contains a rip off of break of dawn, etc, etc.

I mean, as far as I am concerned, do I really need anyone to tell me that the songs are either genuine or fake after hearing so many discrepancies? Seed of doubt introduced or not, something is clearly wrong with those vocals and songs as a whole. And of course I am referring to the lead vocalist, not to the auxilary vocals.

I just wish I don't hear what I hear and I just wish I could hear Michael and be at peace with it. I wouldn't even bother coming inhere and torture myself over what's wrong with either those songs or my hearing capacity. But the truth of the matter as far as I am concerned is that something about those songs is extremely fishy and my ears are trying to warn me that the voice isn't as smooth as it should be, whic has nothing to do with the fact that is a posthumous release, but with the fact that the vocals sound frustratingly unusual and foreign.

 

[Chamife]

And the lyrics don't make it any easier...:no:. They are a bit amateuristic as far as I'm concerned. Hard to believe Michael (co)wrote them.