Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Pentum]

"Hackers stole music intended for 10 new Jackson albums"

LOL. FAIL.

 

[if.it.aint.broke.break.it]

On to it already!

 

[Pentum]

On to it already!

What?

 

[OnirMJ]

"Hackers stole music intended for 10 new Jackson albums"

LOL. FAIL.

How can you be sure that they are talking about Birchey? If he said that he didn't stole the songs. Maybe someone else did stole "music intended for 10 new Jackson albums".. All that snippets that leaked last year (I Am The Loser, Hollywood Tonight Demo, People Of The World...)

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

How can you be sure that they are talking about Birchey? If he said that he didn't stole the songs. Maybe someone else did stole "music intended for 10 new Jackson albums".. All that snippets that leaked last year (I Am The Loser, Hollywood Tonight Demo, People Of The World...)

Because SONY accuses Birchey.

 

[Korgnex]

There is no accusation, but ability/inability to recognize MJ's voice.

Well, SOME doubters are ridiculing/accusing people INCLUDING fans.

Examples:

Birchey's & Cartman's infamous video with Eddie Cascio as a rat, Jason Malachi as a potatoe, Sony Music as aliens and Teddy Riley & Frank DiLeo being ridiculed as well

Many doubters (e.g. Cartman, Damien Shields, Charles Thompson) calling other fans "deaf", "idiots" etc. and Sony Music / The Michael Jackson Estate liars, scammers, cheaters etc.

Not to mention the Jason "goat" Malachi jokes...

 

[teli-mj]

I Believe!!!!!

But seriously, though, you failed to get my point, as expected, honestly.
Why am I here you say? To laugh at this topic still going on and occasionally add something to the "debate" that goes nowhere.
I like to call out people when they are being butthurt over nothing and only like to start drama.

And me playing the victim, I hope you really got the sarcasm in my previous comment, otherwise I'm sad and I have failed :/

No, i didn't get any sarcasm or any anything. Look, maybe for you this debate is laughable but for many people, obviously, is not. That's why is going on for so long even if for you is not going anywhere (although there were lots of people who really saw that there is indeed something wrong with those Cascio songs). If you come here only to provoke people and laugh with their reaction, then you can just just ignore this thread. People here have reasonable doubts to believe those songs are not MJ. Maybe you should show them why you believe the other way instead of coming here to call out people who are butt hurt over nothing, according to you?

So here you go, add something valuable to this useless debate.

 

[ivy]

How can you be sure that they are talking about Birchey? If he said that he didn't stole the songs. Maybe someone else did stole "music intended for 10 new Jackson albums".. All that snippets that leaked last year (I Am The Loser, Hollywood Tonight Demo, People Of The World...)

Because we know that Sony is alleging Birchey and Cartman hacked it- hence "two men" - and we already know this hearing was suppose to happen sometime January or February. It's just the timing fits.

 

[OnirMJ]

Because we know that Sony is alleging Birchey and Cartman hacked it- hence "two men" - and we already know this hearing was suppose to happen sometime January or February. It's just the timing fits.

So it's not all unreleased MJ material ("music intended for 10 new Jackson albums")? Just 12 Cascio songs?

 

[IvoDT]

No, i didn't get any sarcasm or any anything. Look, maybe for you this debate is laughable but for many people, obviously, is not. That's why is going on for so long even if for you is not going anywhere (although there were lots of people who really saw that there is indeed something wrong with those Cascio songs). If you come here only to provoke people and laugh with their reaction, then you can just just ignore this thread. People here have reasonable doubts to believe those songs are not MJ. Maybe you should show them why you believe the other way instead of coming here to call out people who are butt hurt over nothing, according to you?

So here you go, add something valuable to this useless debate.

Oh, but I have tried, only to have my words fall on deaf ears.
You see, I used to take it seriously, and wait... I do take the issue seriously. What I don't take seriously is the majority of this topic (Oh no, don't tell me to just leave now!!1!

 

[ivy]

So it's not all unreleased MJ material ("music intended for 10 new Jackson albums")? Just 12 Cascio songs?

I believe it's more than Cascio songs. At least in one point "I am Loser" was being discussed.

 

[passy001]

I find your comments offensive, hurtful, ignorant and cowardly. Let me explain something to you because you, and others, clearly don't understand. When the controversy surrounding these songs first came from the Jackson family, I was appalled but not surprised at their comments. I thought here we go again, more drama from the Jackson family. Why can't we just enjoy the new music? I hadn't any reason to doubt the story behind the Cascio tracks. We knew that Michael had stayed there at that time and that he had recorded music that had already been released there (WBSS 2008). Also, the Cascio family had been so loyal and so close to Michael for so long, I saw no reason to be concerned. On the day that Breaking News streamed I received a text from my friend who is a big MJ fan, saying that she was so disappointed because the song wasn't Michael. My reaction was that she must have heard that awful Destiny remix that had been put out by Howard Mann. But no, she assured me it was Breaking News. I was still not concerned as I figured that maybe it was just the case that Michael's voice had been autotuned or maybe it was a rough demo etc. Later on that day I finally got the chance to listen. I knew from the 30 second preview that the "aow" at the start had been pasted in, but as Michael was unable to finish the tracks I saw nothing suspicious in that. I was also excited as this song had a similar opening to Tabloid Junkie, which is one of my favourite songs. I should be clear, that at this point in time I was confident in my ability as a fan to recognise Michael's voice. I had been listening to Michael extensively on a daily basis for 17 years - more than half my life. I had seen Michael 19 times, I had had the chance to meet him once. I may not know much in life, but I like to think of myself as an expert when it comes to MJ. I didn't read any comments on the forums because I didn't want any spoilers so I had no idea of the controversy that was erupting in the fan community. I started listening to the song and I was hyped. Then the vocals started. I had to stop the song before the first verse had finished. Clearly something was wrong here. I started the song again. I listened all the way through. I had two problems. I recognised the voice. But it wasn't Michael's voice I recognised. It was a voice that I had known since 2006, when a song called Mamacita had me fooled for a grand total of 2 lines. I had followed Jason, listened to his music. I liked him. Sure, he was a big arrogant to say the least, but I could never understand why fans had such a problem with him. But this was something different.

Looking at the live reactions to the song on forums, I wasn't alone. For example, I sat and read through all the reactions to BN on the King of Pop forum. Like me, other fans were criticising the family in the hours and minutes leading up to the premiere. Then as the hour hit, opinions changed. The very same fans were asking who on earth was singing and Jason Cupeta (Malachi) was identified within 19 minutes. Over the next few days I got to hear Monster and KYHU via various leaks. I thought those songs would sound like Michael and something would come along to "explain everything". Instead, the songs sounded worse. Not the quality, but the vocals. All we got officially was a statement that didn't really explain anything, or back itself up whatsoever, and a cringeworthy appearance on Oprah by Eddie and Teddy who tried to convince us it was Michael by showing a picture of an empty studio and telling us "no one can do a scream like that" (well obviously because the screams are pasted on). As much as I would like to believe them, it was not enough for me.

To suggest that those of us who are concerned about these songs are no better than those who believe MJ is a child molester is not only a very low thing to say but it says a lot about your argument, or lack thereof. You have no proof to backup your belief that the songs are Michael so you resort to insults. In fact, let's have a look at what you do have. There are only two known witnesses to these recording sessions; Eddie Cascio and James Porte (who has never spoken publicly). They are the very same individuals who obviously made a lot of money from these songs by selling them to Sony and also collecting royalties. So we have Eddie Cascio's word. We have a claim by the Estate that vocal analysis was done but no details are given and nothing is shown to back that up. We have some people who heard the songs being played at a listening session and said it was Michael, but this point is kind of mute as there were others in the session who said it wasn't. Not really any different to the fan divide then. Some fans have suggested that some of those who raised concerns such as members of 3T were jealous because their songs were removed from the album in favour of the Cascio tracks. Where is the evidence to support this? What are these songs? This point seems kind of mute when Taryll Jackson, one of the most vocal dissenters, appeared on the album anyway. So what do we have to say it is Michael? The word of the people who sold them.

What do we have to say it is Jason? Each song, and I am counting all 12 here, contains vocal aspects that are not familiar with the voice of Michael Jackson. However, they do seem to match Jason. If there were one small thing in one song maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal. But it isn't. We have:

An unusual and shaky, uncontrolled vibrato that can not be found in any Michael Jackson recording. It is a common trait in every song by JM.
A totally different type of pronounciation - "waiing" "hauniin" etc. Michael never pronounced his words like this. Jason does.
A lack of maturity in the voice.
A lack of grit in the voice.
An accent that doesn't match that of MJ. It matches JM.
A snort sound that the vocalist makes when going from one line to the other. This exact type of snort is not found on any MJ recording. This very same snort is found on JM's recordings.
No explanation has been given by any official entity to explain the reasons for these vocal discrepancies. The only exception to this was when Teddy Riley stated in an interview that the vibrato was caused by speeding up the vocals and using melodyne. However, the vibrato is present on all songs yet he only worked on 3 (BN, Monster, Burn 2Nite). The vibrato still appears on the slower tempo version of Monster.
Other explanations have been given such as "they are demos or guide vocals". Ok but we have many demos of Michael where he still sounds just like himself. The recording equipment has also been blamed. But the vocals on WBSS 08, recorded in the same studio and at the same time, thus presumably on the same equipment sound fine. People have suggested that Michael's voice changed because he was older. Yet his voice doesn't sound anything like that in HMH or TII. And why would his voice get younger with age?
A lack of any MJ trademarks on the lead vocals such as handclaps, finger snaps, footstamps. These are absent from every lead of every track.
Each song seems to be a rip off from previous Mj songs, right down to word for word copied lyrics in some instances (Water). Yes Michael repeated his own themes and ideas in his music, but never so extensively and never so amateurshly.
The extensive use of pasted adlibs and pasted words, despite the large number of takes used. Michael recorded all those takes but couldn't find time to do one single adlib?
A lack of any corroborating evidence that supports Michael's involvement. No notes. No outtakes. No recordings of Michael asking for another take etc.
A reluctance to discuss the issue publicly by Jason and his management except when asked by the media or fan club representatives. It is now over 12 months since Jason removed himself from the public eye as "Jason Malachi". His last public performance was 4 weeks before the premiere of Breaking News.
Jason's own former manager (Tony Kurtis) coming forward and identifying Jason on the tracks. He gained nothing from doing this.
Clear evidence (via Thad Nauden) that the Estate were concerned enough to make contact with Jason to question his involvement several weeks prior to the premiere of BN. Comments from the likes of Taryll and Jackie Jackson indicate that even once the final tracklisting had been selected, there were still great concerns behind the scenes, including concerns held by co-exector John McClain.
The very fact that these songs existence was not revealed until almost a year after MJ's death.
There is also a wealth of info regarding the copyright registrations for these songs, including several registrations that have never been discussed here. I will go into these in a later post due to the length and detail involved.

The reason that those of us have raised so many concerns about these songs is because we love Michael and we want his legacy to be treated with dignity and respect. We don't want this mess. I think we would all gladly be proven wrong. We want these songs to be proven to be Michael. We don't want Michael, his children or his fans to have been betrayed in this way. We have been asking for 15 months for proof. Comparing us, which judging by all the comments on numerous fan forums, is about half the fan community, at least those active online, to ignorant people who choose to believe Michael is a child molester is unbelievably offensive and inappropriate and shouldn't be acceptable on any forum. We all want the best for Michael so rather than attacking us and belittling us, I suggest you either ignore us if you don't agree with us or show something to counter our concerns. People like me can't just "file a lawsuit", at least not in this country, without great financial, emotional and time expense. Something which is not practical when we have our own life, family and work commitments. I have offered what I personally believe is compelling proof which you accused me of not having, along with the many comparisons, only a small number of which are allowed here. I now challenge you to offer equally compelling proof including audio comparisons. If you have nothing to add to this debate other than insults then why are you here? I am talking for all the doubters here, but I made this long post initially because your insult, and yes I take it as a great insult, was aimed at me. It is those kind of comments that have brought divide and destruction in the community so I suggest you stop.

All of this stuff are mere suspicions. nothing more. nothing less. in fact if i were cynical I'd say this is sheer paranoia. in any cases, I'd go with the Estate version of the story. They have hired sound specialists to authenticate MJ vocals and went ahead with the project the moment they received confirmation from the sound specialists that those vocals are MJs. The reason I'd go with the executors is simple: they wouldn't risk their career and reputation just to deliberately con MJ fans with fake MJ songs. They have far more to lose by doing so. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on this issue since they took, in my honest estimation, reasonable steps to verify the authenticity of the recordings, despite all the controversies.

Besides this issue was put to rest two years ago so i don't see the need to harp on this indefinitely. what's done is done and it's time to move on.

 

[Arklove]

All of this stuff are mere suspicions. nothing more. nothing less. in fact if i were cynical I'd say this is sheer paranoia. in any cases, I'd go with the Estate version of the story. They have hired sound specialists to authenticate MJ vocals and went ahead with the project the moment they received confirmation from the sound specialists that those vocals are MJs. The reason I'd go with the executors is simple: they wouldn't risk their career and reputation just to deliberately con MJ fans with fake MJ songs. They have far more to lose by doing so. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on this issue since they took, in my honest estimation, reasonable steps to verify the authenticity of the recordings, despite all the controversies.

Besides this issue was put to rest two years ago so i don't see the need to harp on this indefinitely. what's done is done and it's time to move on.

That's all fine and dandy if you feel the songs are Mike and you're cool with the statement and the tests they said they did...Awesome...But, really, this issue hasn't been put to rest for a lot of us because so much has been left in the air, so many unanswered questions...Maybe you should move on then if you're content with what you're hearing? The lot of us in this thread are not content, and that's why this thread is still going on....I really don't understand all the Jackson's obsession threads, but I don't step foot in there because I have absolutely nothing constructive to say in there...People wanna talk about it, cool, that's their prerogative....We're passionate about this man's music and his legacy and that's why we're in here....Period....We get ONE thread to talk about it...Just one....Is it so much to ask for those who don't wanna contribute anything constructively to just steer clear of this thread if all they wanna tell us is that we're no different than people accusing MJ of pedophilia, or to tell us to go to court, or to tell us to move on, we're obsessed, etc, etc, etc? Is it really just a way to provoke or.....? I'm not trying to be rude at all or tell you to get lost, but really, it just stirs the pot...we all don't want that....

Thanks

 

[KingMikeJ]

All of this stuff are mere suspicions. nothing more. nothing less. in fact if i were cynical I'd say this is sheer paranoia. in any cases, I'd go with the Estate version of the story. They have hired sound specialists to authenticate MJ vocals and went ahead with the project the moment they received confirmation from the sound specialists that those vocals are MJs. The reason I'd go with the executors is simple: they wouldn't risk their career and reputation just to deliberately con MJ fans with fake MJ songs. They have far more to lose by doing so. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on this issue since they took, in my honest estimation, reasonable steps to verify the authenticity of the recordings, despite all the controversies.

Besides this issue was put to rest two years ago so i don't see the need to harp on this indefinitely. what's done is done and it's time to move on.

Wouldn't it be better to forget about reasons why the Cascios/Sony/The Estate would have done this and jsut listen to it yourself and judge it by what you hear?

And this issue was put to rest 2 years ago? Then please explain this 1655 page thread.

 

[Chamife]

Michael's artistry, musicality, way of singing (passionate, honest) and craftmanship was what attracted me to him from a young age. I was in awe of him. He had that natural talent you seldom see.

I will never accept he was so easily replaced by someone else on on his own album, because real talent deserves to be treated with respect and appreciation.

 

[Arklove]

Michael's artistry, musicality, way of singing (passionate, honest) and craftmanship was what attracted me to him from a young age. I was in awe of him. He had that natural talent you seldom see.

I will never accept he was so easily replaced by someone else on on his own album.

Exactly...and by saying 'someone else' it could go both ways...Either it's an impostor or it's so heavily processed to the point where his own fans don't recognize him because in the end, it's ultimately NOT MICHAEL JACKSON at all....Different than fraud, but still a disgusting thing to do this man's voice and legacy, especially by his 'friends' selling his music and voice in the state they were in, if it's actually Michael...

Besides, I'd rather be 'obsessed' with this man's music, voice and talent over any other aspect of his life, or his family's life, etc...That's what made me a fan in the first place...obviously...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

All of this stuff are mere suspicions. nothing more. nothing less. in fact if i were cynical I'd say this is sheer paranoia. in any cases, I'd go with the Estate version of the story. They have hired sound specialists to authenticate MJ vocals and went ahead with the project the moment they received confirmation from the sound specialists that those vocals are MJs. The reason I'd go with the executors is simple: they wouldn't risk their career and reputation just to deliberately con MJ fans with fake MJ songs. They have far more to lose by doing so. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on this issue since they took, in my honest estimation, reasonable steps to verify the authenticity of the recordings, despite all the controversies.

Besides this issue was put to rest two years ago so i don't see the need to harp on this indefinitely. what's done is done and it's time to move on.

Do you realize what has been done to tell you it's MJ on the Cascio tracks? Sorry, but if each time we need a forensic to tell us who we hear, what's the difference when listening to a soundalike?

And by the way, what Stella has written are not suspicions but reality of the facts, unless you don't hear shaky vibrato, among other things, meaning you would contradict Teddy Riley.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Well, SOME doubters are ridiculing/accusing people INCLUDING fans.

Examples:

Birchey's & Cartman's infamous video with Eddie Cascio as a rat, Jason Malachi as a potatoe, Sony Music as aliens and Teddy Riley & Frank DiLeo being ridiculed as well

Many doubters (e.g. Cartman, Damien Shields, Charles Thompson) calling other fans "deaf", "idiots" etc. and Sony Music / The Michael Jackson Estate liars, scammers, cheaters etc.

Not to mention the Jason "goat" Malachi jokes...

PREJUDICE IS IGNORANCE​

There's only one truth that prevails.
No person should be falsely accused, as Michael Jackson was, of a crime they did NOT commit.
Smear campaigns are WRONG. Their aspiration is NEVER to solve the issue BUT to create propaganda.
The actual issue gets confused and avoided in order to push the warmongering against the imagined enemy.
Lies run sprints, but the truth runs marathons.
Michael Jackson

Well, look at your signature. You are using it to tell the doubters that they are ignorant because you alledge they have prejudice when in fact everything comes down to the inability of recognizing MJ, which ultimately means that you are going against the rules of this very thread --accusing us of prejudice. How prejudicial of you

What are people supposed to do when not recognizing their idol's voice? Sit down, shut up and pretend that everything is normal? I am not excusing any ridiculing of Teddy Riley, but when no proof is shown, it is a predictable reaction of angry and unhappy people. They should have hold back the release of the tracks. They chose not to despite the protests. Now they collect the anger. And that's not what I call prejudice, but fans' anger.

 

[passy001]

Wouldn't it be better to forget about reasons why the Cascios/Sony/The Estate would have done this and jsut listen to it yourself and judge it by what you hear?

And this issue was put to rest 2 years ago? Then please explain this 1655 page thread.

I have listened to the songs and acknowledged some sort of disconnect in the recordings. But then I also realized that these recordings were still work in progress at the time of MJ's death, hence the poor quality.

the 1655 pages for this thread are quite perplexing. To me, they only represent a long speculative list of twisted theories about a controversial subject matter.

 

[passy001]

Do you realize what has been done to tell you it's MJ on the Cascio tracks? Sorry, but if each time we need a forensic to tell us who we hear, what's the difference when listening to a soundalike?

And by the way, what Stella has written are not suspicions but reality of the facts, unless you don't hear shaky vibrato, among other things, meaning you would contradict Teddy Riley.

Those are not FACTS. Those are her honest belief based on her interpretations of the recordings. They are NOT FACTS. They are speculative at best.

 

[Arklove]

^^ Have you read all 1655 pages?

 

[Arklove]

Those are not FACTS. Those are her honest belief based on her interpretations of the recordings. They are NOT FACTS.

Shaky vibrato is not a fact? Different pronunciations? Lack of Michael's vocal tics? These aren't fact? We can't pretend they're not there...we can't pretend Michael's vocal traits can be found on these tracks other than the copy-pastes..unless you can point them out, by all means, have at 'er...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Those are not FACTS. Those are her honest belief based on her interpretations of the recordings. They are NOT FACTS. They are speculative at best.

So if the vibrato is not shaky, how would you describe it?

 

[KingMikeJ]

I have listened to the songs and acknowledged some sort of disconnect in the recordings. But then I also realized that these recordings were still work in progress at the time of MJ's death, hence the poor quality.

But how would that make Michael sound so unlike his usual self? Why is there no debate with I Am A Loser or Slave To The Rhythm?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I have listened to the songs and acknowledged some sort of disconnect in the recordings. But then I also realized that these recordings were still work in progress at the time of MJ's death, hence the poor quality.

the 1655 pages for this thread are quite perplexing. To me, they only represent a long speculative list of twisted theories about a controversial subject matter.

poor quality?

Here's poor quality without studio:

[youtube]uN5cgjQiFoI[/youtube]

[youtube]130Qv-aPeGc&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]Ti52BtUZmKg[/youtube]


sounds nothing like the Cascio tracks recorded in a studio

 

[passy001]

So if the vibrato is not shaky, how would you describe it?

Look they were many aspects of the recordings which i found irregular as well but not sufficient to convince me that they are fake. As I said earlier, these recordings were pretty much work in progress. Meaning that they could have been recorded when MJ was experimenting, trying a few things here and there. Given this it's quite possible in this context for the recordings to sound a bit off.

 

[Pentum]

^ LOL, the experimenitng excuse!

Go listen to Fall Again. Sounds perfeclty like Michael, even though he mumbles and doesn't even sing properly.

ALSO, the worse quality, the more it should sound like Michael. I already explained this.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Look they were many aspects of the recordings which i found irregular as well but not sufficient to convince me that they are fake. As I said earlier, these recordings were pretty much work in progress. Meaning that they could have been recorded when MJ was experimenting, trying a few things here and there. Given this it's quite possible in this context for the recordings to sound a bit off.

Experimenting with 12 songs? I have no doubt that they were experimenting them, I only have doubt Michael was involved.

 

[Chamife]

Would a friend show Michael's 'experiments' to the world as complete works? Eddie to Oprah: "I think Michael would be very excited right now, that the music he was making for his fans, they were finally getting a chance to hear it".

So, Michael would be very excited to know the fans finally getting a chance to hear his 'experiments'?

Mmmm..

eta: Don't think any artist likes it if their experiments are released. Not until they put their signature below it. And the fact that Eddie is a friend and also a musiclover and producer makes it even harder to understand. He should know better.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Eddie's words:

"...I would say, the beginning of '07, he came ready to work. And that's what we did. We spent long hours working in the studio, recording."

"I can tell you that it is Michael's voice. He recorded right there in my basement,..."

"It was a home studio and, you know, we worked. I was there pushing the buttons. He was right there directing, and that's Michael Jackson."


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