Michael - The Great Album Debate

Out of respect to Michael I won't go into details, but he also did accuse the sheriff's department of Santa Barbara police of rough treatment without proof.

Enough said.

Stop comparing.
 
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The 'power abusing' comment wasn't addressed to that single individual who handled Michael but to the US police officers as a whole. They have a reputation for doing that, but that's a whole different topic.
 
you're no different than those who see MJ as a child molester. You offer no compelling proof yet you expect people to side with you just like those who think MJ was a child molester.

I find your comments offensive, hurtful, ignorant and cowardly. Let me explain something to you because you, and others, clearly don't understand. When the controversy surrounding these songs first came from the Jackson family, I was appalled but not surprised at their comments. I thought here we go again, more drama from the Jackson family. Why can't we just enjoy the new music? I hadn't any reason to doubt the story behind the Cascio tracks. We knew that Michael had stayed there at that time and that he had recorded music that had already been released there (WBSS 2008). Also, the Cascio family had been so loyal and so close to Michael for so long, I saw no reason to be concerned. On the day that Breaking News streamed I received a text from my friend who is a big MJ fan, saying that she was so disappointed because the song wasn't Michael. My reaction was that she must have heard that awful Destiny remix that had been put out by Howard Mann. But no, she assured me it was Breaking News. I was still not concerned as I figured that maybe it was just the case that Michael's voice had been autotuned or maybe it was a rough demo etc. Later on that day I finally got the chance to listen. I knew from the 30 second preview that the "aow" at the start had been pasted in, but as Michael was unable to finish the tracks I saw nothing suspicious in that. I was also excited as this song had a similar opening to Tabloid Junkie, which is one of my favourite songs. I should be clear, that at this point in time I was confident in my ability as a fan to recognise Michael's voice. I had been listening to Michael extensively on a daily basis for 17 years - more than half my life. I had seen Michael 19 times, I had had the chance to meet him once. I may not know much in life, but I like to think of myself as an expert when it comes to MJ. I didn't read any comments on the forums because I didn't want any spoilers so I had no idea of the controversy that was erupting in the fan community. I started listening to the song and I was hyped. Then the vocals started. I had to stop the song before the first verse had finished. Clearly something was wrong here. I started the song again. I listened all the way through. I had two problems. I recognised the voice. But it wasn't Michael's voice I recognised. It was a voice that I had known since 2006, when a song called Mamacita had me fooled for a grand total of 2 lines. I had followed Jason, listened to his music. I liked him. Sure, he was a big arrogant to say the least, but I could never understand why fans had such a problem with him. But this was something different.

Looking at the live reactions to the song on forums, I wasn't alone. For example, I sat and read through all the reactions to BN on the King of Pop forum. Like me, other fans were criticising the family in the hours and minutes leading up to the premiere. Then as the hour hit, opinions changed. The very same fans were asking who on earth was singing and Jason Cupeta (Malachi) was identified within 19 minutes. Over the next few days I got to hear Monster and KYHU via various leaks. I thought those songs would sound like Michael and something would come along to "explain everything". Instead, the songs sounded worse. Not the quality, but the vocals. All we got officially was a statement that didn't really explain anything, or back itself up whatsoever, and a cringeworthy appearance on Oprah by Eddie and Teddy who tried to convince us it was Michael by showing a picture of an empty studio and telling us "no one can do a scream like that" (well obviously because the screams are pasted on). As much as I would like to believe them, it was not enough for me.

To suggest that those of us who are concerned about these songs are no better than those who believe MJ is a child molester is not only a very low thing to say but it says a lot about your argument, or lack thereof. You have no proof to backup your belief that the songs are Michael so you resort to insults. In fact, let's have a look at what you do have. There are only two known witnesses to these recording sessions; Eddie Cascio and James Porte (who has never spoken publicly). They are the very same individuals who obviously made a lot of money from these songs by selling them to Sony and also collecting royalties. So we have Eddie Cascio's word. We have a claim by the Estate that vocal analysis was done but no details are given and nothing is shown to back that up. We have some people who heard the songs being played at a listening session and said it was Michael, but this point is kind of mute as there were others in the session who said it wasn't. Not really any different to the fan divide then. Some fans have suggested that some of those who raised concerns such as members of 3T were jealous because their songs were removed from the album in favour of the Cascio tracks. Where is the evidence to support this? What are these songs? This point seems kind of mute when Taryll Jackson, one of the most vocal dissenters, appeared on the album anyway. So what do we have to say it is Michael? The word of the people who sold them.

What do we have to say it is Jason? Each song, and I am counting all 12 here, contains vocal aspects that are not familiar with the voice of Michael Jackson. However, they do seem to match Jason. If there were one small thing in one song maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal. But it isn't. We have:

An unusual and shaky, uncontrolled vibrato that can not be found in any Michael Jackson recording. It is a common trait in every song by JM.
A totally different type of pronounciation - "waiing" "hauniin" etc. Michael never pronounced his words like this. Jason does.
A lack of maturity in the voice.
A lack of grit in the voice.
An accent that doesn't match that of MJ. It matches JM.
A snort sound that the vocalist makes when going from one line to the other. This exact type of snort is not found on any MJ recording. This very same snort is found on JM's recordings.
No explanation has been given by any official entity to explain the reasons for these vocal discrepancies. The only exception to this was when Teddy Riley stated in an interview that the vibrato was caused by speeding up the vocals and using melodyne. However, the vibrato is present on all songs yet he only worked on 3 (BN, Monster, Burn 2Nite). The vibrato still appears on the slower tempo version of Monster.
Other explanations have been given such as "they are demos or guide vocals". Ok but we have many demos of Michael where he still sounds just like himself. The recording equipment has also been blamed. But the vocals on WBSS 08, recorded in the same studio and at the same time, thus presumably on the same equipment sound fine. People have suggested that Michael's voice changed because he was older. Yet his voice doesn't sound anything like that in HMH or TII. And why would his voice get younger with age?
A lack of any MJ trademarks on the lead vocals such as handclaps, finger snaps, footstamps. These are absent from every lead of every track.
Each song seems to be a rip off from previous Mj songs, right down to word for word copied lyrics in some instances (Water). Yes Michael repeated his own themes and ideas in his music, but never so extensively and never so amateurshly.
The extensive use of pasted adlibs and pasted words, despite the large number of takes used. Michael recorded all those takes but couldn't find time to do one single adlib?
A lack of any corroborating evidence that supports Michael's involvement. No notes. No outtakes. No recordings of Michael asking for another take etc.
A reluctance to discuss the issue publicly by Jason and his management except when asked by the media or fan club representatives. It is now over 12 months since Jason removed himself from the public eye as "Jason Malachi". His last public performance was 4 weeks before the premiere of Breaking News.
Jason's own former manager (Tony Kurtis) coming forward and identifying Jason on the tracks. He gained nothing from doing this.
Clear evidence (via Thad Nauden) that the Estate were concerned enough to make contact with Jason to question his involvement several weeks prior to the premiere of BN. Comments from the likes of Taryll and Jackie Jackson indicate that even once the final tracklisting had been selected, there were still great concerns behind the scenes, including concerns held by co-exector John McClain.
The very fact that these songs existence was not revealed until almost a year after MJ's death.
There is also a wealth of info regarding the copyright registrations for these songs, including several registrations that have never been discussed here. I will go into these in a later post due to the length and detail involved.

The reason that those of us have raised so many concerns about these songs is because we love Michael and we want his legacy to be treated with dignity and respect. We don't want this mess. I think we would all gladly be proven wrong. We want these songs to be proven to be Michael. We don't want Michael, his children or his fans to have been betrayed in this way. We have been asking for 15 months for proof. Comparing us, which judging by all the comments on numerous fan forums, is about half the fan community, at least those active online, to ignorant people who choose to believe Michael is a child molester is unbelievably offensive and inappropriate and shouldn't be acceptable on any forum. We all want the best for Michael so rather than attacking us and belittling us, I suggest you either ignore us if you don't agree with us or show something to counter our concerns. People like me can't just "file a lawsuit", at least not in this country, without great financial, emotional and time expense. Something which is not practical when we have our own life, family and work commitments. I have offered what I personally believe is compelling proof which you accused me of not having, along with the many comparisons, only a small number of which are allowed here. I now challenge you to offer equally compelling proof including audio comparisons. If you have nothing to add to this debate other than insults then why are you here? I am talking for all the doubters here, but I made this long post initially because your insult, and yes I take it as a great insult, was aimed at me. It is those kind of comments that have brought divide and destruction in the community so I suggest you stop.
 
ITS NOT THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We got 12 SONGS WE CAN HEAR WITH OUR OWN EARS!!!! DID WE HAVE A TAPE OF MJ **** WITH KIDS!?! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP IT! STOP comparing this with the pedophilia case!!!!!



Thank you. Whoever brings the molestation cases up, they are trying to emotionally black mail fans who don't believe that those songs are MJ's. Do you understand that you are mixing to completely different cases. And do you understand there are proofs that MJ was innocent? Where are the proofs that those songs are real?

Do us a favor and stop comparing different between them things because then you are not better than those fools out there who say that OJ got away with it, so did MJ without knowing a damn thing about the two cases.
 
I just listened Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008 few times, and Michael's vocals sound like those on Hollywood Tonight to me. But nothing like the vocals on the Cascio tracks even though WBSS 2008 was recorded at their basement.
 
Thank you. Whoever brings the molestation cases up, they are trying to emotionally black mail fans who don't believe that those songs are MJ's.

Oh, yeah, sure.. You guys are the "victims" again.
Don't mind me laughing at this even though I agree the cases are completely different and shouldn't be compared.

I think only MJ has the full right to be emotional about that case since he was the one getting accused. So really now, this is way over exaggerating, stop trying to be a victim when you aren't.
This is about the songs, not the case.

Also @ OnirMJ,
Good for you, yet if I am correct, Hollywood Tonight was already partly recorded in 1999. Even then I think they have nothing alike in sounding like each other by listening to the acapella without autotune and WBSS 2008.
Yet, the voice of WBSS reminds me alot of Monster myself. =)
 
Well said, Stella! :clapping: Seriously?? MJ fans comparing MJ fans to those people who accused MJ of being a pedophile? WTF? Don't even bother coming in here with that sick twistedness...if u believe the songs are MJ, how about enlightening us as to why? :smilerolleyes: I know it's futile, but maybe if someone would FINALLY do this, we wouldn't have to keep asking...:DOooooh right....I guess it's not that easy....I couldn't possibly imagine why...
 
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Well said, Stella! :clapping: Seriously?? MJ fans comparing MJ fans to those people who accused MJ of being a pedophile? WTF? Don't even bother coming in here with that sick twistedness...if u believe the songs are MJ, how about enlightening us as to why? :smilerolleyes: I know it's futile, but maybe if someone would FINALLY do this, we wouldn't have to keep asking...:DOooooh right....I guess it's not that easy....I couldn't possibly imagine why...

Because whatever we say we get a "very original" answer in return that doesn't help you "doubters" in any freaking way like it doesn't help us in any way.

I'm still waiting to get some proof from your side of the issue, some proof for your accusations that the songs are fake, oh wait, I guess it's not that easy, I couldn't possibly imagine why...

Not so friendly now, was it?
I'll play the role of victim and say I'm offended.
 
The worst thing with the misplaced comparison of Tom Sneddon's case is that the doubters first of all do not accuse per se. We just don't recognize Michael. Period. As far as I know, we are not divided into accusers and defendants, but believers (of the authenticity) and doubters (of the authenticity). There is no accusation, but ability/inability to recognize MJ's voice. Why can't the doubters recognize MJ's voice is not the result of any kind of accusation. This latter is just a collateral thinking in case there is fraud.

The so called 'accusations' however, are merely suppositions in order to explain the doubters' inability to hear Michael. The doubters don't even know who to accuse if there is fraud. So if people compare the doubters to child molestation accusers, then why they omit to compare themselves to the followers of the official "facts", i.e. Sneddon's case?
 
Because whatever we say we get a "very original" answer in return that doesn't help you "doubters" in any freaking way like it doesn't help us in any way.

I'm still waiting to get some proof from your side of the issue, some proof for your accusations that the songs are fake, oh wait, I guess it's not that easy, I couldn't possibly imagine why...

Not so friendly now, was it?
I'll play the role of victim and say I'm offended.

You're waiting for proof? Who's talking about proof? I'm asking those who believe it's Michael to point out WHY they think it's Michael...

We as doubters have pointed out a million times where we hear someone else and why we don't hear Michael...it's all over the thread...! I never once said that was 'proof'....:scratch:

But anyway, it's futile as I said, so I don't know why I bothered to ask...It was mostly for those who do nothing else to add to the conversation except to insult....if they don't wanna discuss it, why bother coming in?
 
You're waiting for proof? Who's talking about proof? I'm asking those who believe it's Michael to point out WHY they think it's Michael...

We as doubters have pointed out a million times where we hear someone else and why we don't hear Michael...it's all over the thread...! I never once said that was 'proof'....:scratch:

But anyway, it's futile as I said, so I don't know why I bothered to ask...It was mostly for those who do nothing else to add to the conversation except to insult....if they don't wanna discuss it, why bother coming in?

I typed up everything that was wrong with these tracks and everything that points to them being Jason. After 15 months there is still no sound explanation for these discrepancies.
 
I typed up everything that was wrong with these tracks and everything that points to them being Jason. After 15 months there is still no sound explanation for these discrepancies.

We all know that there is no proof on either side....We only have what our ears are telling us...So why not go into detail about that? It's just like me saying, 'I don't hear Michael...I just don't...I don't need to explain why...' and leave it at that...???? Huh? If I'm gonna hang out in a thread, I might as well discuss it and point out just where and why I don't hear Michael....

Michael's got tons of vocal tics, nuances, unique traits to his voice, pronunciation, grit, timbre, husk...Those very things are what make up MICHAEL JACKSON'S voice...that voice we all grew up with and can read like the back of our hand..instantly recognizable....So if he's singing these songs, where are those traits? That's all we're asking the believers....I'm not trying to be snarky or rude about asking....I'm just ASKING...it's a point of discussion, a way to learn from each other in the absence of any PROOF from either side....It's plain and simply JUST THAT....

If one took my asking as 'unfriendly', then fine, I shouldn't have said it so sarcastically :D I'm allowed ONE flaw :D
 
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We all know that there is no proof on either side....We only have what our ears are telling us...So why not go into detail about that? Michael's got tons of vocal tics, nuances, unique traits to his voice, pronunciation, grit, timbre, husk...Those very things are what make up MICHAEL JACKSON'S voice...that voice we all grew up with and can read like the back of our hand..instantly recognizable....So if he's singing these songs, where are those traits? That's all we're asking ask doubters....I'm not trying to be snarky or rude about asking....I'm just ASKING...it's a point of discussion, a way to learn from each other in the absence of any PROOF from either said....It's plain and simply JUST THAT....

That's what I'm saying. For me, it is the absence of those things, coupled with the presence of so many of Jason's vocal tics that are the proof. That's before we get into all the other suspicious aspects.
 
Oh, yeah, sure.. You guys are the "victims" again.
Don't mind me laughing at this even though I agree the cases are completely different and shouldn't be compared.

I think only MJ has the full right to be emotional about that case since he was the one getting accused. So really now, this is way over exaggerating, stop trying to be a victim when you aren't.
This is about the songs, not the case.

Also @ OnirMJ,
Good for you, yet if I am correct, Hollywood Tonight was already partly recorded in 1999. Even then I think they have nothing alike in sounding like each other by listening to the acapella without autotune and WBSS 2008.
Yet, the voice of WBSS reminds me alot of Monster myself. =)

Joe Vogel confirmed to me that vocals on Hollywood Tonight were recorded in 1999 and in 2007. WBSS 2008 was recorded in 2007 too. To me vocals from Monster are completely different from MJ's vocals on any song from any era.
 
So did Birchey do it or not?

Joe Vogel confirmed to me that vocals on Hollywood Tonight were recorded in 1999 and in 2007. WBSS 2008 was recorded in 2007 too. To me vocals from Monster are completely different from MJ's vocals on any song from any era.




I thought Hollywood only had one recording session in 1999?
What else did MJ add in 2007?
 
Oh, yeah, sure.. You guys are the "victims" again.
Don't mind me laughing at this even though I agree the cases are completely different and shouldn't be compared.

This is about the songs, not the case.


And why you're telling me that? Why don't you go back and read who brings up the molestation thing all the time.It's not me, it's not "the doubters" It's ....... Oh Lord, the "believers" :bugeyed


I think only MJ has the full right to be emotional about that case since he was the one getting accused. So really now, this is way over exaggerating, stop trying to be a victim when you aren't.

Right, so why are you here then, since it is not you that is being questioned of releasing questionable songs of your dead friend? I think only Eddie and all those who participated in releasing those songs have the right to be emotional about this case since they are the one who are being questioned.So really now, stop exaggerating and play the victim when you are not.
 
So did Birchey do it or not?

Depends whose version of events you listen to.

I don't think there's any denying of getting the songs. He did wrote that publicly on MJJC. However how they are gotten - theft or not, hacking or not you have different stories.

Fact is, it is thanks to him that we have so much info on the Cascio tracks.

Well let's hope that he doesn't face serious consequences due to such encouragement and obsession about these songs.
 
So did Birchey do it or not?






I thought Hollywood only had one recording session in 1999?
What else did MJ add in 2007?

I asked Joe on Twitter when were the vocals recorded (1999 or 2007). He replied to me "both".
 
I don't think there's any denying of getting the songs. He did wrote that publicly on MJJC. However how they are gotten - theft or not, hacking or not you have different stories.



Well let's hope that he doesn't face serious consequences due to such encouragement and obsession about these songs.

If I am not mistaken, he also confirmed he didn't do it and that he actually told them their servers hadn't been protected.
 
If I am not mistaken, he also confirmed he didn't do it and that he actually told them their servers hadn't been protected.

Yeah their servers were open for months. There were many leaks prior to when Birchey is alleged to have hacked them (March 2010).
 
If I am not mistaken, he also confirmed he didn't do it and that he actually told them their servers hadn't been protected.

and that's what I meant.

I don't think that no one is denying that Birchey has the songs - he wrote it publicly - at least for the Cascio songs.

Birchey says he didn't hack anything but Sony claims the opposite that it was deliberate hack. And that's what I called as different stories.
 
Birchey and his mate was not the hackers. Like Stella said, the servers was already opened months before. Then they were "re-opened" again. I don't know by who. People could just enter and snatch what they wanted.
 
And why you're telling me that? Why don't you go back and read who brings up the molestation thing all the time.It's not me, it's not "the doubters" It's ....... Oh Lord, the "believers" :bugeyed

Right, so why are you here then, since it is not you that is being questioned of releasing questionable songs of your dead friend? I think only Eddie and all those who participated in releasing those songs have the right to be emotional about this case since they are the one who are being questioned.So really now, stop exaggerating and play the victim when you are not.

I Believe!!!!!

But seriously, though, you failed to get my point, as expected, honestly.
Why am I here you say? To laugh at this topic still going on and occasionally add something to the "debate" that goes nowhere.
I like to call out people when they are being butthurt over nothing and only like to start drama.

And me playing the victim, I hope you really got the sarcasm in my previous comment, otherwise I'm sad and I have failed :/
 
I copy your tweets eheheh

Charles Thomson ? @CEThomson
@PentumMJ The two men who appeared in court are MJ fans. They hacked in looking for evidence that the Cascio tracks were fake.

Charles Thomson @CEThomson
@PentumMJ As part of their defence, they are expected to present audio analysis in open court which proves the vocals are bogus.
in reply to @PentumMJ

Celsus @PentumMJ
@CEThomson I already know all about this, just thought you should see it. I hope it ends well and that they also can use it to strike Sony.
in reply to @CEThomson

Damien Shields @damienshields
@PentumMJ @CEThomson Be waiting a while. Trial doesn't start until January 2013. Expected to run for 4 weeks.
 
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