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Michael - The Great Album Debate

StellaJackson said:
Have you any idea what we have been doing for the last 15 months? Which is actually not two years by the way. Have you any idea how much money and time is involved in filing a lawsuit like that? In this country it is not as simple as that. I suggest you do a lot of reading up on what has been going on with Birchey etc and you might realise just how out of touch you are with this situation.

It would be nice if you could actually identify where you hear Michael in the tracks and give explanations for the vibrato, accent, pronounciation and snorts or spend some time making comparison audios to match up Mj with the Cascio tracks. instead of insulting us.
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You have thousands of fans, yet you couldn't find one to donate to hire a professional, but instead fill this forum with youtube posts? Really, you act like some middle schooler. You hardly done nothing with all the time you have. You could have the US fans, as I said before, file suit for you. So saying, I'm from such and such, is an excuse and you know it.

I also know Birchey and I like him as a poster, but I disagree with him on this. If he showed me real proof for this cause, then I will be more than okay to admit I was wrong. That's why I didn't really post here because I figure within this timespan, people like Birchey would have real proof and take his case to court, or nothing would be found. Guess what happened.

OnirMJ, 2.5 million is a flop? Do you know how many artists would love to sell that love and for a release like this. Granted, it could had done better, but that number is hardly a flop.

BUMPER SNIPPET, 'And I take my precious time to even answer...Poor Michael.' Funny, I think the exact same thing every time I read your post. I guess we're even.
 
Ramona122003 said:
And really, 'No one else cares about MJ in this world other than his fans.', how arrogant can you be? If you really cared, you would had file suit against everyone you thought were involve, including T3 for withholding evident.
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What? Am I not telling the truth? You're saying that your friends who do not care for Michael... care for Michael? It's the fans only. (and his family of course).

And why are you saying "if you really cared"? You already said I have been here for 2 years (why are you even saying 2 years?) sitting here and whined, don't I CLEARLY care then? SMH...

Doubters have done a lot of things, except hire a professional, file suit, and continue to hammer T3 except for half a dozen fans. I hardly calling pulling all your power together.
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We tried to hire a professional once or twice, but he told us somethings that his opinion simply wouldn't be strong enough. And I have hammered T3 since day 1. I even tweeted them a few times per week for months.

I also heard Jason Malachi too, thank you very much. He sounds like Michael on some parts, but he never sounds right to me. I listen to Michael and I don't hear Jason Malachi. Besides, even if it was a fake, it isn't like Jason is the only person they could find to mimic Michael's voice. Especially since Jason can be sued if he did take part in fraud. So the fact is, we're both fans, but we don't hear the same thing. Who's right, who knows, which is why we have professionals.
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Jason might not be the only guy who can mimic MJ's voice, but he is the only guy that can actually sing a little and have had studio experience (2 albums +).
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PLEASE READ Mod Note
Please stop attacking and belittling each other _ That is not what this thread is for
This thread is open for discussion pro or con (believer or doubter) to tackle the topic not each other
 
OnirMJ said:
The Jacksons are scared, because if they sue Sony - they are suing Estate. And the Estate would be pissed.. the Estate would than sue them for something, they would stop paying Katherine so she would stop financing the whole parazite Jackson family.. all their kids would have to move from Michael's property...
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And my guess is that even more likely, if the songs were proven fake the Estate would be liable along with Sony... which is why they will never sue, because essentially they would be suing themselves.
 
StellaJackson said:
We have tried to hire a professional. The exchanges between the musicologist and doubters were shown and discussed extensively on Maximum Jackson over a year ago. Money was the barrier which prevented us from going forward. Yes there are other soundalikes but all the similarities are with Jason - vibrato, accent etc.
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What, you couldn't get one person to donate? You had this board, Maximum Jackson, and others and you couldn't find a handful people to just donate 10 dollars a month or something? You couldn't tweet Thomas, a doubter, to help the cause and get donors to by a professional.

You doubters much be either unsure or cheap.

Also, sound similar doesn't mean it's Jason. If it was that easy, you wouldn't need a professional to begin with.
 
Ramona122003 said:
What, you couldn't get one person to donate? You had this board, Maximum Jackson, and others and you couldn't find a handful people to just donate 10 dollars a month or something? You couldn't tweet Thomas, a doubter, to help the cause and get donors to by a professional.

You doubters much be either unsure or cheap.

Also, sound similar doesn't mean it's Jason. If it was that easy, you wouldn't need a professional to begin with.
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Still waiting for your post about where you think the Cascio singer sounds just like MJ in the MJ songs.
 
Ramona122003 said:
You have thousands of fans, yet you couldn't find one to donate to hire a professional, but instead fill this forum with youtube posts? Really, you act like some middle schooler. You hardly done nothing with all the time you have. You could have the US fans, as I said before, file suit for you. So saying, I'm from such and such, is an excuse and you know it.

I also know Birchey and I like him as a poster, but I disagree with him on this. If he showed me real proof for this cause, then I will be more than okay to admit I was wrong. That's why I didn't really post here because I figure within this timespan, people like Birchey would have real proof and take his case to court, or nothing would be found. Guess what happened.

OnirMJ, 2.5 million is a flop? Do you know how many artists would love to sell that love and for a release like this. Granted, it could had done better, but that number is hardly a flop.

BUMPER SNIPPET, 'And I take my precious time to even answer...Poor Michael.' Funny, I think the exact same thing every time I read your post. I guess we're even.
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Yes, it is a major flop. I think Sony Music will agree. With what artists are you comparing Michael Jackson?
 
Ramona122003 said:
You have thousands of fans, yet you couldn't find one to donate to hire a professional, but instead fill this forum with youtube posts? Really, you act like some middle schooler. You hardly done nothing with all the time you have. You could have the US fans, as I said before, file suit for you. So saying, I'm from such and such, is an excuse and you know it.

I also know Birchey and I like him as a poster, but I disagree with him on this. If he showed me real proof for this cause, then I will be more than okay to admit I was wrong. That's why I didn't really post here because I figure within this timespan, people like Birchey would have real proof and take his case to court, or nothing would be found. Guess what happened.

OnirMJ, 2.5 million is a flop? Do you know how many artists would love to sell that love and for a release like this. Granted, it could had done better, but that number is hardly a flop.

BUMPER SNIPPET, 'And I take my precious time to even answer...Poor Michael.' Funny, I think the exact same thing every time I read your post. I guess we're even.
Click to expand...

You do realise that Birchey is currently fighting Sony music in court over the ProTools material right?
 
Pentum said:
Still waiting for your post about where you think the Cascio singer sounds just like MJ in the MJ songs.
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And I'm still waiting for an explanation for the snorts, vibrato, accent etc etc etc. In fact I've been waiting over a year.
 
Ramona122003 said:
What, you couldn't get one person to donate? You had this board, Maximum Jackson, and others and you couldn't find a handful people to just donate 10 dollars a month or something? You couldn't tweet Thomas, a doubter, to help the cause and get donors to by a professional.

You doubters much be either unsure or cheap.

Also, sound similar doesn't mean it's Jason. If it was that easy, you wouldn't need a professional to begin with.
Click to expand...

You need to stop insulting people. It isn't necessary.
 
Pentum said:
Ramona122003 said:
What? Am I not telling the truth? You're saying that your friends who do not care for Michael... care for Michael? It's the fans only. (and his family of course).

And why are you saying "if you really cared"? You already said I have been here for 2 years (why are you even saying 2 years?) sitting here and whined, don't I CLEARLY care then? SMH...

We tried to hire a professional once or twice, but he told us somethings that his opinion simply wouldn't be strong enough. And I have hammered T3 since day 1. I even tweeted them a few times per week for months.

Jason might not be the only guy who can mimic MJ's voice, but he is the only guy that can actually sing a little and have had studio experience (2 albums +).
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When I specially said, 'you don't care' I was talking generally about doubters. You can't really care if you have resources to get justice yet do nothing buy stay behind a computer screen and defraud people. Seating behind a computer does not say you care. It says you just want to be right.

Who's 'he'? You said his opinion would be enough, or he told you, you should had tried anyway. If it wasn't enough, get another professional and see what she/he says. Build your case and take the people who defiled Michael's name to court. Don't just take the word of one person, who may or may not know what he/she is talking about.

You may have of hammered T3, but you should had gotten everyone involve. Although, I will admit you did more than most. That's more than I can for other doubters on this board.
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Ramona, are you even reading what people answer in response to your post? You keep going on about doubters 'whining' and not doing anything but seem to ignore the examples people have posted of what they have tried to do. Besides, the topic of this thread is the authenticity of these tracks, so I am not sure what you expect people in here to be posting about.
 
Ramona I will tell you again that there is currently a court case involving fans going on. Please explain all the issues that have been raised with the vocals if you are so confident it is Michael. You must have a solid explanation.
 
Ramona122003 said:
When I specially said, 'you don't care' I was talking generally about doubters. You can't really care if you have resources to get justice yet do nothing buy stay behind a computer screen and defraud people. Seating behind a computer does not say you care. It says you just want to be right.

Who's 'he'? You said his opinion would be enough, or he told you, you should had tried anyway. If it wasn't enough, get another professional and see what she/he says. Build your case and take the people who defiled Michael's name to court. Don't just take the word of one person, who may or may not know what he/she is talking about.

You may have of hammered T3, but you should had gotten everyone involve. Although, I will admit you did more than most. That's more than I can for other doubters on this board.
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Yup, we doubters don't give a damn. End of debate, can we move on?
 
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Pentum said:
Still waiting for your post about where you think the Cascio singer sounds just like MJ in the MJ songs.
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So your mindset is, I have no proof, so show me yours.

I don't have to show proof, because I'm don't have the burden of proof nor am I am accusing people of fraud. And if you want my opinion, the vast majority, 60 to 70%, of those fakes songs are Michael. There is some copy and paste, yes, but it's still Michael. It's obvious those tracks were not complete and it sounds empty and some spots, but it is still Michael in there.

OnirMJ said:
Yes, it is a major flop. I think Sony Music will agree. With what artists are you comparing Michael Jackson?
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Over two-million is no flop. Most albums in this day and age are luck to break the million mark. Not to mention, other than this BS, the album was even really promotion. Now, could the album have sold more, of course it could, but releases like this usually don't sell the same as one by an actually living artist. That's a fact.

StellaJackson said:
You do realise that Birchey is currently fighting Sony music in court over the ProTools material right?
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Birchey is suing over ProTools material, not fake songs. If e was suing over the Cascio's song it would be more than just Sony. I also assume you would had brought his information here if it was about these songs right, but you all admitted that you have no real proof because you can't afford it.

StellaJackson said:
You need to stop insulting people. It isn't necessary.
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Funny, I've read your past posts and you have a habit of insulting people, especially Ivy. What, it's rude to ask for proof for defraudment, forgery, and character assassination?
 
SoCav said:
Ramona, are you even reading what people answer in response to your post? You keep going on about doubters 'whining' and not doing anything but seem to ignore the examples people have posted of what they have tried to do. Besides, the topic of this thread is the authenticity of these tracks, so I am not sure what you expect people in here to be posting about.
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I read there proof and post for over a year now. At this point, it's tiresome they're still going and they have nothing really to show for it. Posting clips on youtube is hardly anything, sorry.

And I am talking about the authenticity of these tracks. The issue I have that people the doubt the authenticity, which is fine I don't care, but they go around pushing their opinion as fact. I believe the songs to be real, but I've never once said I knew for sure that they were Michael. I've always said it sounds like Michael to me and I'm willing to admit that I maybe wrong. The doubters here are not willing to say the same and they pushed their flimsy evident as proof and blast anyone who says otherwise.

I have no patient to humor such people.
 
Ramona122003 said:
So your mindset is, I have no proof, so show me yours.

I don't have to show proof, because I'm don't have the burden of proof nor am I am accusing people of fraud. And if you want my opinion, the vast majority, 60 to 70%, of those fakes songs are Michael. There is some copy and paste, yes, but it's still Michael. It's obvious those tracks were not complete and it sounds empty and some spots, but it is still Michael in there.



Over two-million is no flop. Most albums in this day and age are luck to break the million mark. Not to mention, other than this BS, the album was even really promotion. Now, could the album have sold more, of course it could, but releases like this usually don't sell the same as one by an actually living artist. That's a fact.



Birchey is suing over ProTools material, not fake songs. If e was suing over the Cascio's song it would be more than just Sony. I also assume you would had brought his information here if it was about these songs right, but you all admitted that you have no real proof because you can't afford it.



Funny, I've read your past posts and you have a habit of insulting people, especially Ivy. What, it's rude to ask for proof for defraudment, forgery, and character assassination?
Click to expand...

So now your digging up posts from weeks ago, which were already dealt with, to back up your argumnent? Do you even know what the ProTools material is? Are you aware of the findings? If you were confident in your belief it is Michael then you would be able to actively demonstrate where you hear Michael in the tracks and you would provide a solid argument against the evidence provided for it being Cupeta, as is shown in the comparisons. And not just the ones posted here. Let me give you a start...please explain the reason for Michael pronouncing his words just like Jason Cupeta for these 12 songs only.
 
Apparently too many people here have been watching Law & Order excessively and don't understand how law suits work and what is involved. It is not as simple as "Just filing a lawsuit". It is not nearly that easy. First of all, to find a lawyer that would even take on a case of that caliber would be very difficult. Lawyers want to be paid and are not going to attack the repytations of major corporations and respected people when the case is doomed to fail. It does not matter what you believe or what you know, legally it only matters what you can prove. To begin a lawsuit you will need evidence, you will need questions answered and proven. How much did Sony know? Were they involved before hand or afterwards. How complicit was the Estate? What actually went on behind the scenes? Was the Fraud committed primarily by Jason (or whomever) and eddie? Who else was involved? Who performed the inital comparisons? What materials did they use? Was it original materials or comparisons made after the voice had been altered? Many questions that are hard to answer without someone coming forward (which would never happen.) I already quoted from my friend who was a lawyer who said that the case would be complicated and that she wouldn't even touch it. There is too much to be lost. Contrary to popular belief, going willy nilly into a court and suing a major company will not only cost you in the initial suit, but following suits against you by them for slander, libel, and whatever else they can think of would most definitely be imminent.

There is no proof the person on the album is Michael. There is no proof it is Michael. There are comparisons done of vocals that appear to be more similar to Jason than they are to Michael and fans' own opinion of what they hear. However, similar will not win a lawsuit. Your opinion will not win a lawsuit. Sony or the Estate are not listening to fans' concerns because they know ultimately (unless one of them turned or another which would not happen) the fans don't have concrete enough undisputable proof to force them in a case to listen. That is the bottom line. The fans who have done the comparisons these few years have done more in trying to prove that it is not Michael than those who are in controil of the Estate and Sony have done to prove it is him. By doing comparisons and speaking about it continuously there is the hope that an increase in numbers can make possible what is not possible from a few thousand. That sheer numbers may be enough to make waves (even if it is not legally) and show we know what took place and won't stand for it. Even if those cannto change the past but at least prevent anymore of those songs from being used a t a future time, that is certainly better.

I just get so sick and tired of hearing people say "do something or stop talking about it" as if US law is so easy to master and execute. People continuously talk about the family on the board. Why? Your talking about it won't change anything. People talk about Paris and her guardians. Why? Talking about it won't change it. But we come to a MJ forum to talk about things related to MJ because even if we cannot change what others do, we can at least find some comraderie and fellowship and people who have an interest in Mj and talk about it without people telling us it is futile.

MOD NOTE: If anyone just wants to come in here and complain about people continuing to talk about the Cascio tracks, please exit the thread. That is what this thread was made for. Do not come into a thread meant for a specific purpose and then harp on the people who actually want to use that thread for that purpose.

Thank you.
 
IvoDT said:
I'm happy the issue gets more attention, yet I'm sad Hollywood Tonight and other songs are getting included in this debate.
Even today I spoke to some people (both listening to MJ) and they were 100% sure HT was fake and told everyone about it.
It's a sad thing to see, imo, how such a "conspiracy" by fans and the jacksons makes people question pretty much everything...
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See how it feels for us "Believers" when you call the Cascio tracks fake.
 
StellaJackson said:
You do realise that Birchey is currently fighting Sony music in court over the ProTools material right?
Click to expand...

StellaJackson said:
Ramona I will tell you again that there is currently a court case involving fans going on. Please explain all the issues that have been raised with the vocals if you are so confident it is Michael. You must have a solid explanation.
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r u sure a cross complaint is filed? The last I talked (1 + month ago), it was still just Sony suing people for theft, there was no cross complaint, there was no separate lawsuit, it was still a hope that the authenticity would be relevant topic but there was no witnesses or evidence to back it up yet.
 
PLEASE READ Mod Note
Please stop attacking and belittling each other _ That is not what this thread is for
any futher instances WILL be Deleted - Lets get this thread back on track please ..

You can discuss the songs and topic with out all that .
Do not come in here judging and attcking each other
That is against the policies of this board... that goes for both sides of this issue.

This thread is created purely for those who wish to discuss the authenticity and thier opinions of the Album "Michael"
Lets dissect analyse and make our feelings and concerns known - In a respectful manner of course.
If you do not agree to discuss in this manner then please do not come here to read and respond.
This thread is open for discussion pro or con (believer or doubter) to tackle the topic not each other
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ginvid said:
MOD NOTE: If anyone just wants to come in here and complain about people continuing to talk about the Cascio tracks, please exit the thread. That is what this thread was made for. Do not come into a thread meant for a specific purpose and then harp on the people who actually want to use that thread for that purpose.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
 
ginvid said:
Apparently too many people here have been watching Law & Order excessively and don't understand how law suits work and what is involved. It is not as simple as "Just filing a lawsuit". It is not nearly that easy. First of all, to find a lawyer that would even take on a case of that caliber would be very difficult. Lawyers want to be paid and are not going to attack the repytations of major corporations and respected people when the case is doomed to fail. It does not matter what you believe or what you know, legally it only matters what you can prove. To begin a lawsuit you will need evidence, you will need questions answered and proven. How much did Sony know? Were they involved before hand or afterwards. How complicit was the Estate? What actually went on behind the scenes? Was the Fraud committed primarily by Jason (or whomever) and eddie? Who else was involved? Who performed the inital comparisons? What materials did they use? Was it original materials or comparisons made after the voice had been altered? Many questions that are hard to answer without someone coming forward (which would never happen.) I already quoted from my friend who was a lawyer who said that the case would be complicated and that she wouldn't even touch it. There is too much to be lost. Contrary to popular belief, going willy nilly into a court and suing a major company will not only cost you in the initial suit, but following suits against you by them for slander, libel, and whatever else they can think of would most definitely be imminent.

There is no proof the person on the album is Michael. There is no proof it is Michael. There are comparisons done of vocals that appear to be more similar to Jason than they are to Michael and fans' own opinion of what they hear. However, similar will not win a lawsuit. Your opinion will not win a lawsuit. Sony or the Estate are not listening to fans' concerns because they know ultimately (unless one of them turned or another which would not happen) the fans don't have concrete enough undisputable proof to force them in a case to listen. That is the bottom line. The fans who have done the comparisons these few years have done more in trying to prove that it is not Michael than those who are in controil of the Estate and Sony have done to prove it is him. By doing comparisons and speaking about it continuously there is the hope that an increase in numbers can make possible what is not possible from a few thousand. That sheer numbers may be enough to make waves (even if it is not legally) and show we know what took place and won't stand for it. Even if those cannto change the past but at least prevent anymore of those songs from being used a t a future time, that is certainly better.

I just get so sick and tired of hearing people say "do something or stop talking about it" as if US law is so easy to master and execute. People continuously talk about the family on the board. Why? Your talking about it won't change anything. People talk about Paris and her guardians. Why? Talking about it won't change it. But we come to a MJ forum to talk about things related to MJ because even if we cannot change what others do, we can at least find some comraderie and fellowship and people who have an interest in Mj and talk about it without people telling us it is futile.

MOD NOTE: If anyone just wants to come in here and complain about people continuing to talk about the Cascio tracks, please exit the thread. That is what this thread was made for. Do not come into a thread meant for a specific purpose and then harp on the people who actually want to use that thread for that purpose.

Thank you.
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You've just summed everything up perfectly. I am too am tired of people just saying "file a lawsuit". The real world doesn't work like that. I wish people would understand that all we care about is Michael and his art. It isn't about personal politics or winning some argument. It is about wanting Michael to be treated with dignity and respect in death, something which we feel the Cascio tracks do not represent. God knows, we don't want this. I'd do anything to be wrong but I can't help what I hear. And it sure as heck ain't Michael Jackson on them songs to me.
 
Ramona122003 said:
So your mindset is, I have no proof, so show me yours.
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Wrong. Doubters were not talking of proofs per se, the doubters said "we don't hear Michael" and showed the copmparisons with Jason to point out why and where. The sam has ebeen asked to the believers in order to make us hear MJ's voice, but no believer managed to do it.

Ramona122003 said:
I don't have to show proof, because I'm don't have the burden of proof nor am I am accusing people of fraud. And if you want my opinion, the vast majority, 60 to 70%, of those fakes songs are Michael. There is some copy and paste, yes, but it's still Michael. It's obvious those tracks were not complete and it sounds empty and some spots, but it is still Michael in there.
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60% to 70% Michael, on a MJ album, wow. And I was afraid to expect to hear MJ on a MJ album...but I guess that 60% will do, I feel better...

Ramona122003 said:
Over two-million is no flop. Most albums in this day and age are luck to break the million mark. Not to mention, other than this BS, the album was even really promotion. Now, could the album have sold more, of course it could, but releases like this usually don't sell the same as one by an actually living artist. That's a fact.
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The fact is also that without creating such a split among fans, the album would have sold better than that. You cannot deny that fact.



Ramona122003 said:
Birchey is suing over ProTools material, not fake songs. If e was suing over the Cascio's song it would be more than just Sony. I also assume you would had brought his information here if it was about these songs right, but you all admitted that you have no real proof because you can't afford it.
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You don't even realize that SONY/Estate haven't shown a single proof. Their only ability is to label the songs as MJ's, nothing more.


Ramona122003 said:
Funny, I've read your past posts and you have a habit of insulting people, especially Ivy. What, it's rude to ask for proof for defraudment, forgery, and character assassination?
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And that gives you the right to do the same? Stella was banned. So you should be banned too then.
 
ivy said:
r u sure a cross complaint is filed? The last I talked (1 + month ago), it was still just Sony suing people for theft, there was no cross complaint, there was no separate lawsuit, it was still a hope that the authenticity would be relevant topic but there was no witnesses or evidence to back it up yet.
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The last I heard was that lawyers representing said fans were attempting to question Jason. The case still hasn't gone to court yet. It will be in the crown court so you can follow the proceedings if you know what names to search for ;)
 
I am just a reader but I was present here almost every day from day 1... and I just want to say 1 thing after all that time : Please, for God's sake, stop attacking each other! With angry L.O.V.E. Garden
 
ginvid said:
Apparently too many people here have been watching Law & Order excessively and don't understand how law suits work and what is involved.
Click to expand...

I suspect some people excessively watched Ally McBeal...
 
Great post ginvid, I could not agree more. This "why don't you take it to court if you are so sure" argument has been used since the beginning of this debate. The actions doubters could potentially take are certainly interesting to explore (and have been a number of times), but only if free of the disdain that often comes along with the question. This whole "sue or shut up" notion is plain ridiculous and does nothing more than stifle discussion.
 
MOD NOTE:

Again, we are not going to turn this into a real fan vs fake fan subject. A person can have their personal preferences and those preferences don't necessarily void their opinion on the subject. A person can like what they like but that does not change the fundamental issue of whether it is Michael or not so please don't start that in this thread.

This devisive and dismissive attitude that caused so much havoc all over the board when the album was first released will not be allowed.

Thank you.
 
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