Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Arklove]

And now I'm gonna terrorize you!

SHUT UP!

We make jokes...We're ruthless attackers..

Sit back and enjoy some popcorn with me opcorn:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

MOD NOTE:

No one is going to be allowed to talk about other members for their perceived "bullying". Not out in the thread. Any instances of things that went on between members were taken care of between those members and do not need an outside referee to impose their personal opinions on the matter.

Do not demean one another by calling people "blind" or "followers". We've asked this many times. It is not allowed from either side.

If your post is missing it has been deleted for either breaking a rule or responding to someone who has. I am just saying this so people understand.

Thank you.

Ok, but do I have your permission to terrorize you time after time in this thread?

 

[IvoDT]

I was already wondering where my post was, lol.

Anyway, I can 100% agree with that Bumper.
Like I said before, even as a believer, I want some proof so we pretty much want the same, imo.

 

[Ramona122003]

If you have come to your own conclusions and reasons for the songs being real then please demonstrate them to use. And who are this T3 you keep speaking of? Oh, and I don't have a youtube channel.

That's the thing, I don't have to demonstrate crap to you because I have nothing to prove. I think it is Michael, pure and simple. I don't need youtube or to spend my weekends editing and going through music files to prove my point.

You on the other hand do have something to prove because you are claiming fraud, which is a federal crime here in the US. Your evident is weak, pure and simple. And my evidences would be equally as weak since we will be engaging in battle of the ears here and ears are not reliable. Unless we're both willing to hire a professional and let him/her have the final say about who's, we can do this round about for another 15 months and we'll still be bumping our heads against the wall.

So, what do you want to do? Do you want to get everyone on the board, or even other fanboard, involve and hire a professional to prove who's right once and for all? I'm more than willing to do it. We can open a thread and asked everyone here for donations, spread the cost with other fan board and end this debate once and for all. We'll find the best in the business and we can even get Thomas to help. No lawsuit needed. You would have the satisfaction of knowing that you were right for 15 months.

What do you say?

 

[Korgnex]

your ignorance on the subject

I'm familiar with the U.S. law, thanks very much! You still think too one-dimensional about what the claimant would actually have to achieve. Think about a shift in the burden of proof. You still think that the claimant would have to do too much at the beginning. That's not reality here!

And no, a CONSUMER fraud lawsuit CANNOT be counter-sued unless their claim was malicious!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I was already wondering where my post was, lol.

Anyway, I can 100% agree with that Bumper.
Like I said before, even as a believer, I want some proof so we pretty much want the same, imo.

Well THAT attitude of yours in this post I call when fans come together. Compare this very post of yours with Ramona's and you'll see how she is digging even a bigger rift between the doubters and the believers in this thread.

 

[StellaJackson]

That's the thing, I don't have to demonstrate crap to you because I have nothing to prove. I think it is Michael, pure and simple. I don't need youtube or to spend my weekends editing and going through music files to prove my point.

You on the other hand do have something to prove because you are claiming fraud, which is a federal crime here in the US. Your evident is weak, pure and simple. And my evidences would be equally as weak since we will be engaging in battle of the ears here and ears are not reliable. Unless we're both willing to hire a professional and let him/her have the final say about who's, we can do this round about for another 15 months and we'll still be bumping our heads against the wall.

So, what do you want to do? Do you want to get everyone on the board, or even other fanboard, involve and hire a professional to prove who's right once and for all? I'm more than willing to do it. We can open a thread and asked everyone here for donations, spread the cost with other fan board and end this debate once and for all. We'll find the best in the business and we can even get Thomas to help. No lawsuit needed. You would have the satisfaction of knowing that you were right for 15 months.

What do you say?

So if you just believe it is Michael "just cos" and you have nothing to add to this debate then why are you even here? And it is NOT a crime in the United Kingdom to state that I hear Jason on these tracks so stop with all this federal crime nonsense. And my ears are evidence enough to me. I have been listening to Michael for 18 years, I do not hear him on these tracks. I hear Jason Cupeta. If you think I am committing a crime by saying that then perhaps you want to think about how you are slandering me?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

And BUMPER SNIPPET, that's the first step, admitting that you have a problem

I'd be happy if I had only A problem. At least I am admitting it. How about you?

 

[Ramona122003]

Well THAT attitude of yours in this post I call when fans come together. Compare this very post of yours with Ramona's and you'll see how she is digging even a bigger rift between the doubters and the believers in this thread.

BUMPER, you did that long before I got here.

 

[Ramona122003]

I'd be happy if I had only A problem. At least I am admitting it. How about you?

Yes, i do have a problems, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted two hours of my life in this forum talking to people like you in a 15 mouth old debate. So, we're both hopeless. Isn't it great?

So, are you going to take me up on my offer?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

BUMPER, you did that long before I got here.

I did what exactly?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Yes, i do have a problems, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted two hours of my life in this forum talking to people like you in a 15 mouth old debate.

So, are you going to take me up on my offer?

I can't. I am not a psychiatrist.

 

[IvoDT]

So if you just believe it is Michael "just cause" and you have nothing to add to this debate then why are you even here?

That's kinda the reason why I'm here too, though. I do like to discuss this issue, but I have no proof like the rest of the people.

 

[ivy]

Apparently too many people here have been watching Law & Order excessively and don't understand how law suits work and what is involved.

some corrections

It is not as simple as "Just filing a lawsuit". It is not nearly that easy. First of all, to find a lawyer that would even take on a case of that caliber would be very difficult. Lawyers want to be paid and are not going to attack the repytations of major corporations and respected people when the case is doomed to fail. It does not matter what you believe or what you know, legally it only matters what you can prove. To begin a lawsuit you will need evidence, you will need questions answered and proven.

I think you are mixing up "filing a lawsuit" versus "having a legit lawsuit". You don't need a lawyer or evidence to file a lawsuit. Today I can as pro se (representing myself) can write a complaint file go to the court and pay several hundreds dollars of filing fee and can sue Sony. United States is full of examples of this such as Nona Jackson filing a motion in MJ Estate probate saying that she's entitled to half of Neverland. So filing a lawsuit is real easy and cheap.

How much did Sony know? Were they involved before hand or afterwards. How complicit was the Estate? What actually went on behind the scenes? Was the Fraud committed primarily by Jason (or whomever) and eddie? Who else was involved? Who performed the inital comparisons? What materials did they use? Was it original materials or comparisons made after the voice had been altered? Many questions that are hard to answer without someone coming forward (which would never happen.)

Those are all discovery questions that would come after the lawsuit stands the dismissal request. For coming to that stage all you need is a legit question. For example if today someone went to court with a professional vocal analysis as Charles Thomson said, a judge would grant that there's a legit question / issue for a jury to look and decide and the case would have gone to trial. The above would only become relevant and will determine if you win the case or not.

Example would be Katherine arguing there's an oral contract between Murray and AEG and AEG arguing there wasn't a signed contract. The judge decided both were legit points and it was a decision for a jury. Similarly if someone went to court with any piece of legit information - such as an expert analysis showing fraud - it would have been a legit question to go on to the next stage - an intergorratory and discovery and then an actual trial.

Contrary to popular belief, going willy nilly into a court and suing a major company will not only cost you in the initial suit, but following suits against you by them for slander, libel, and whatever else they can think of would most definitely be imminent.

If you lose they can ask you to pay the legal costs however you are wrong about the slander /libel lawsuits. No one can sue you for libel or slander due to a lawsuit you filed. Lawsuits claims , testimonies etc are exempt of defamation lawsuits.

No-one can be sued for filing a consumer fraud lawsuit and losing it. It is wrong assumptions like this one which prevents you from making any effort in your quest for justice. The purpose of a consumer fraud lawsuit is to adjudge if one's belief in a punishable conduct of the accused is justified.

absolutely correct.

Sorry, you're wrong. Firstly you could not bring a consumer lawsuit against anyone because it would be nearly impossible to show damages.

not quite. damages can be as simple as the money paid for the item. In Milli Vanilli lawsuit the damages was the money paid for the albums and concert tickets which was only a few dollars. So in this case damages are the money paid for the CD.

If you cannot show this, then a fraud case will not fit.

False advertising, consumer fraud and so on will fit. see above.

Therefore, you would have to find some way to prove that Sony (or whoever) is criminally negligent under some other law in order for this case to be brought out in the open. The crux of that case would have to prove that Whoever was willfully, knowingly, aware of what was going on, that they were complicit in it, and that they had a hand in covering up said crime. All very difficult for people like us to prove without someone on the inside coming forth with proof.

only determinant in winning a lawsuit and not filing a lawsuit.

If you filed such a suit against someone that essentially tarnished their reputation, affected future earnings, whatever, you could absolutely be countersued for all of the above.

and was Michael able to sue Chandlers and Arvizos? So any statements or documents are done for the purpose of a trial cannot be sued for defamation. See below:

"Defamatory statements made during court proceedings or written in legal documents for purposes of LITIGATION generally are privileged, or protected, from slander or libel lawsuits"

We aren't charging anyone with a crime. I don't believe anyone here is an officer of the law.

You are accusing Sony, the estate, Cascios, and others of fraud. Your entire argument is that someone, probably the Cascios, knowingly and purposely made fake track using an imposer and sold it to the mass market. That is a crime. So you are accusing someone of a crime .

I have never accused Sony or the Estate of fraud. I do not believe they were involved in any way. I simply believe, based on the evidence, that Jason Cupeta is performing these tracks, and if that means a fraud was committed by certain individuals then so be it. And I think you will find that you are now accusing me of a crime which I find laughable.

Actually Stella - whether it is Sony / Estate / Cascio or Malachi you are accusing someone of fraud - a criminal activity - and it is defamation per se. There's no need for a law enforcement here. If they wanted they can take your or anyone's statements and sue you for defamation as most you don't write stuff as an "opinion" but rather like a "fact". Opinions are protected under first amendment but making criminal accusations - saying the songs are fake hence there's a fraud - like a fact is defamation.

I have seen this thread and their haven't been in real believers here in months. Yes, in the beginning believers solved their opinion down people throats and the doubters did the same. It was a real mess. In time, however, all the believers disappeared from this forum to do other things. For me, I went to enjoy my album, which I still listen to.

Some doubters, on the other hand, has stood on this forum and had degrade, mocked, terrorize, and belittle those who disagree with them, even other doubter. You said you think Hollywood Tonight is fake, you're an idiot. You said you hear Jason on this part, but not this one, you're deaf. Sorry, but the behavior of the doubters in this forum over the last couple months have been a disgrace.

Ivy, who is one of the calmest and intelligence people on this forum has been ruthlessly attacked by posters like StellaJackson and BUMPER SNIPPET, who continue to make mocking post even now. Was it really necessary for BUMPER to write to ADKIc3mAnX, 'Barry White = Michael Jackson done'? Isn't that kind of rude instead of going deeper into ADKIc3mAnX's beliefs. She wasn't rude or demanding, so why the aggressive post.

I wanted to say I agree.

--------------

The last I heard was that lawyers representing said fans were attempting to question Jason. The case still hasn't gone to court yet. It will be in the crown court so you can follow the proceedings if you know what names to search for

Last I heard neither Cascio's or Jacksons were aware of such lawsuit. Interesting isn't it? Is this a lawsuit that is actually filed with the court or is it something that is just being planned? Because if it was filed there would be no need to "attempt" and you can simply use court subpoenas to get people talk to you and the parties involved would actually know about it. So to me it seems like it's a plan rather than a actual lawsuit.

 

[Chamife]

Ivo, you said Michael's voice in 'Fall in love' reminded you of a young Michael in the 'Thriller' era.

Can you give me an example? Curious to know what part of a song it reminded you of.

 

[Ramona122003]

I can't. I am not a psychiatrist.

That explains a lot about you.

Joking aside, I offered StellaJackson a chance to end this. We will start a thread on this board and any other board that you wish. We will have a neutral party, most like Gaz, collect money so we can hire our own music specialist. One that is not under the control of Sony or the estate. You can even get Thomas, a fellow doubter, to help too by gathering money from his followers. We will have this professional, professionals if you wish, look at each song and make up their own mind what's real or fake. We'll even let them hear the 'real' songs and see if they can tell the different themselves. Whatever they say will be the word of all fan committees. If they say their fake, I'll shut up. If they say their real, you do the same. If they for some reason say that a real song is fake, it moots everything.

What do you say? We both get what we want.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

That explains a lot about you.

Joking aside, I offered StellaJackson a chance to end this. We will start a thread on this board and any other board that you wish. We will have a neutral party, most like Gaz, collect money so we can hire our own music specialist. One that is not under the control of Sony or the estate. You can even get Thomas, a fellow doubter, to help too by gathering money from his followers. We will have this professional, professionals if you wish, look at each song and make up their own mind what's real or fake. We'll even let them hear the 'real' songs and see if they can tell the different themselves. Whatever they say will be the word of all fan committees. If they say their fake, I'll shut up. If they say their real, you do the same. If they for some reason say that a real song is fake, it moots everything.

What do you say? We both get what we want.

Eureka?

You clearly haven't followed this thread.

 

[IvoDT]

Ivo, you said Michael's voice in 'Fall in love' reminded you of a young Michael in the 'Thriller' era.

Can you give me an example? Curious to know what part of a song it reminded you of.

It reminds me a bit of The Girl Is Mine and The Lady In My Life and some other song (Going to search for it now). =)

 

[Ramona122003]

Eureka?

You clearly haven't followed this thread.

Okay, what did I miss that clearly said, 'I haven't followed this thread'? Which is nearly impossible anyway given that it is over 1600 pages long.

Oh great one, tell this foolish believer what I have missed from you glory?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

[youtube]fJ9rUzIMcZQ&ob=av3e[/youtube]

 

[StellaJackson]

It reminds me a bit of The Girl Is Mine and The Lady In My Life and some other song (Going to search for it now). =)

But Michael was 25 years younger when he recorded those tracks. His voice had matured a lot by 2007. Jason, on the hand, would have been 29/30 when the songs were recorded (late 09/early 10 imo).

 

[IvoDT]

But Michael was 25 years younger when he recorded those tracks. His voice had matured a lot by 2007. Jason, on the hand, would have been 29/30 when the songs were recorded (late 09/early 10 imo).

Correct, but listening to MJ singing Human Nature on This Is It sounds almost exactly the same to me, imo.

 

[Rudolf]

That's the thing, I don't have to demonstrate crap to you because I have nothing to prove. I think it is Michael, pure and simple. I don't need youtube or to spend my weekends editing and going through music files to prove my point.

Yeah, we don't have to prove anything. You think it's Michael. Ok. But I think it's not MJ. That's all conclusion. Debates won't lead anywhere IMO.

 

[StellaJackson]

Correct, but listening to MJ singing Human Nature on This Is It sounds almost exactly the same to me, imo.

I think there is a lot more grit and husk in the voice in TII, something which you can hear develop over the years of Human Nature being performed. Just out of interest, when did you first start extensively listening to Michael?

 

[teli-mj]

And whoever doesn't have the money to file a law suit or whatever it is called just warn people that the album contains three fake songs and they won't buy it. I think that will prevent Sony and the Estate from messing with MJ's work again.

 

[Ramona122003]

And whoever doesn't have the money to file a law suit or whatever it is called just warn people that the album contains three fake songs and they won't buy it. I think that will prevent Sony and the Estate from messing with MJ's work again.

That's the problem, what happens if the songs are not fake? If we learn tomorrow that the doubters were wrong, how would you justify taking money out of Michael's estate and his kids? Are you just gong to say, Sony should had told us, when they did but you didn't believe them? Boycotting without proper proof is dangerous.

 

[Pentum]

MJ's voice is much, much DEEPER in the recent years. You can't even hear that deepness in the Cascio songs.

 

[IvoDT]

Just out of interest, when did you first start extensively listening to Michael?

Not to be rude or anything, but I prefer to not give out my age / saying when I "started" (not that I know exactly) listening to MJ.
Reason: Even though no one says it, being very young gives you a disadvantage in debates/your opinions don't matter as much anymore. It's just the way I see it/see it happen alot.

Same goes for the, when did you start listening?

Also, Hold My Hand also sounds like Thriller/Bad era Michael to me, to be honest.

 

[StellaJackson]

And whoever doesn't have the money to file a law suit or whatever it is called just warn people that the album contains three fake songs and they won't buy it. I think that will prevent Sony and the Estate from messing with MJ's work again.

I always hide copies of it in really random places in shops so that nobody will see it. LOL. Seriously it is like £1.55 on amazon now.

 

[IvoDT]

I always hide copies of it in really random places in shops so that nobody will see it. LOL. Seriously it is like £1.55 on amazon now.

So that's why I can never find the CD's in my local shops/find them in weird places. =P