Michael - The Great Album Debate

[ADKIc3mAnX]

@BUMPER SNIPPET I said this to you and others before asking a "Believer" where he hears Michael is dumb because being a "Believer" means we believe the song is performed/sung by Michael Jackson so asking us that will get you this answer 90% of the time which for some odd reason you don't like "The whole song".

 

[Chamife]

I'm sorry, I haven't had the time to read all posts..

But if I agree to join in filing a suit (and it would cost me), I want to be sure we have proof. And that's the problem.

The comparisons are proof enough to me, but they are obtained illegaly. Not sure how it works in other countries, but I'm not sure it will be allowed to use in court.

A voice analysis by a professional we could hire, still wouldn't prove a thing.

And to me that is the biggest problem. I'm willing to participate, if I'm sure we have a case.

 

[Korgnex]

Apparently too many people here have been watching Law & Order excessively and don't understand how law suits work and what is involved.

Pardon? I take this as an insult.

following suits against you by them for slander, libel, and whatever else they can think of would most definitely be imminent.

No-one can be sued for filing a consumer fraud lawsuit and losing it. It is wrong assumptions like this one which prevents you from making any effort in your quest for justice. The purpose of a consumer fraud lawsuit is to adjudge if one's belief in a punishable conduct of the accused is justified.

You can only be sued if you are careless enough to break the law because you are so convinced of yourself and your opinion that you go around and accuse people of crimes (outside of a lawsuit you're filing). But that has nothing to do with the case, that's what you guys are doing yourself without any justification (thus illegal) - because you're so frustrated. And that's criminal and can be penalized.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

@BUMPER SNIPPET I said this to you and others before asking a "Believer" where he hears Michael is dumb because being a "Believer" means we believe the song is performed/sung by Michael Jackson so asking us that will get you this answer 90% of the time which for some odd reason you don't like "The whole song".

Nothing prevents you to compare the vocals of whole songs. I'll help you out:

Billie Jean = Who is It
Speed Demon = Why you wanna trip on me = Privacy
Beat It = Dirty Diana
etc, etc. i am just tired to re-type over and over things again and again.

Voice on Monster = breaking News = Keep your head up, and not a single other song from MJ's previosu albums.

 

[Ramona122003]

Great post ginvid, I could not agree more. This "why don't you take it to court if you are so sure" argument has been used since the beginning of this debate. The actions doubters could potentially take are certainly interesting to explore (and have been a number of times), but only if free of the disdain that often comes along with the question. This whole "sue or shut up" notion is plain ridiculous and does nothing more than stifle discussion.

Wouldn't that be the same when doubters tell believers to shut up and leave the forum when we disagree or you're only listen to the estate or Sony? How about, where's your proof when we're not the ones charging someone with a crime and you don't know this debate, so shut up.

When you come into any forum with that kind of overtone, it's fair to assume that it's okay to be a little rude since being polite would get you eating alive. Believers also rarely shoved the idea that the songs are real, but simply don't understand why the doubters didn't take more action in the months since the album release. Having fans say, we know it Jason 100% and you're wrong, is not debating in good faith.

 

[OnirMJ]

I'm not 100% sure it is Jason Malachi, I think it is Jason Malachi. But I'm 100% sure it is not Michael Jackson.

 

[StellaJackson]

Wouldn't that be the same when doubters tell believers to shut up and leave the forum when we disagree or you're only listen to the estate or Sony? How about, where's your proof when we're not the ones charging someone with a crime and you don't know this debate, so shut up.

When you come into any forum with that kind of overtone, it's fair to assume that it's okay to be a little rude since being polite would get you eating alive. Believers also rarely shoved the idea that the songs are real, but simply don't understand why the doubters didn't take more action in the months since the album release. Having fans say, we know it Jason 100% and you're wrong, is not debating in good faith.

We aren't charging anyone with a crime. I don't believe anyone here is an officer of the law. The songs sound like Jason to us and that's it. We have demonstrated over and over again down to the minutest detail where we hear him. That is more proof than has been shown to prove it is Michael. And again, you can't "just file a lawsuit". It doesn't work like that. Especially when you are talking about suing people in another country.

Also, I have much to discuss regarding the copyright registrations when I get the time. So much interesting stuff in there.

 

[Ramona122003]

Pardon? I take this as an insult.




No-one can be sued for filing a consumer fraud lawsuit and losing it. It is wrong assumptions like this one which prevents you from making any effort in your quest for justice. The purpose of a consumer fraud lawsuit is to adjudge if one's belief in a punishable conduct of the accused is justified.

You can only be sued if you are careless enough to break the law because you are so convinced of yourself and your opinion that you go around and accuse people of crimes (outside of a lawsuit you're filing). But that has nothing to do with the case, that's what you guys are doing yourself without any justification (thus illegal) - because you're so frustrated. And that's criminal and can be penalized.

You're so much smarter than me since you said in a paragraph something I was trying to say for ten posts. I applaud you.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

With respect, I'd like to say/take a note that you posted this like... what, 3 times already, when there isn't really any insulting/attacking going on.

Not true, Ramona's tone is just creating further rift for no reason.

The topic is about the cascio tracks still, and anything surrounding the cascio tracks is being discussed. I'm very sorry if you see it any different, but that's the case here.

Also, I love Ramona122003's posts. Why you ask?
Because she's as "real" as the doubters are in the way she speaks --> straight to the point.

She's way off the point by making doubters as if they were guilty of something. Her posts are inciting people to fight.

I've seen you guys say "horrible" things to other people and constantly asking the same questions and giving the same damn answers. I myself haven't seen anything going on/any form of action been taken.

I've seen way too many people getting off with jokes and quickly changing a topic etc etc.

How can joking be equalled to bad mood and fans' division ?

Oh and also, the topic is finally alive again (for who knows how long), but don't forget we are discussing the same stuff we did before again and again and again without anyone changing his or her beliefs. =)

Many changed their belief. Hoewever I haven't seen a single doubter become a believer.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Nothing prevents you to compare the vocals of whole songs. I'll help you out:

Billie Jean = Who is It
Speed Demon = Why you wanna trip on me = Privacy
Beat It = Dirty Diana
etc, etc. i am just tired to re-type over and over things again and again.

Voice on Monster = breaking News = Keep your head up, and not a single other song from MJ's previosu albums.

Here we go I'm going to compare them vocally.

{Monster}/Privacy/Threatened/Give In To Me/Money/Why You Wanna Trip On Me

{Keep Your Head Up}/On The Line/Will You Be There

{Breaking News}/Who Is It/Dangerous/Can't Let Her Get Away/She Drives Me Wild

Done

 

[StellaJackson]

Many changed their belief. Hoewever I haven't seen a single doubter become a believer.

I think Fall In Love changed a lot of people's minds lol.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Here we go I'm going to compare them vocally.

{Monster}/Privacy/Threatened/Give In To Me/Money/Why You Wanna Trip On Me

{Keep Your Head Up}/On The Line/Will You Be There

{Breaking News}/Who Is It/Dangerous/Can't Let Her Get Away/She Drives Me Wild

Done

Barry White = Michael Jackson

done

 

[Ramona122003]

We aren't charging anyone with a crime. I don't believe anyone here is an officer of the law. The songs sound like Jason to us and that's it. We have demonstrated over and over again down to the minutest detail where we hear him. That is more proof than has been shown to prove it is Michael.

You are accusing Sony, the estate, Cascios, and others of fraud. Your entire argument is that someone, probably the Cascios, knowingly and purposely made fake track using an imposer and sold it to the mass market. That is a crime. So you are accusing someone of a crime and are partaken in character assassin because you are saying that Michael's long-time friends and co-workers have betrayed Michael and by saying these songs are real. Quite frankly, if you accuse me of such a crime with your 'proof' I would sue you for defraudment. You don't do this to people without proof. You wouldn't want people going around calling you a thief, traitor, and a fraud based on flimsy evident. None of us would.

Sorry, youtube is not, 'down to the minute detail', since I have seen doubters disagree about where they even hear Jason. Believers, or whatever, don't need to show proof because we're accusing people, you are.

 

[StellaJackson]

Barry White = Michael Jackson

done

I want to see detailed comparisons that show instances in MJ songs that are a match for the tone, timbre, pronounciation, accent, vibrato etc. A match that is closer to MJ than Jason. And I want a solid explanation, backed up by sources and examples, for all the "Jasonisms" that are in these tracks. Why can't believers do this?

 

[StellaJackson]

You are accusing Sony, the estate, Cascios, and others of fraud. Your entire argument is that someone, probably the Cascios, knowingly and purposely made fake track using an imposer and sold it to the mass market. That is a crime. So you are accusing someone of a crime and are partaken in character assassin because you are saying that Michael's long-time friends and co-workers have betrayed Michael and by saying these songs are real. Quite frankly, if you accuse me of such a crime with your 'proof' I would sue you for defraudment. You don't do this to people without proof. You wouldn't want people going around calling you a thief, traitor, and a fraud based on flimsy evident. None of us would.

Sorry, youtube is not, 'down to the minute detail', since I have seen doubters disagree about where they even hear Jason. Believers, or whatever, don't need to show proof because we're accusing people, you are.

I have never accused Sony or the Estate of fraud. I do not believe they were involved in any way. I simply believe, based on the evidence, that Jason Cupeta is performing these tracks, and if that means a fraud was committed by certain individuals then so be it. And I think you will find that you are now accusing me of a crime which I find laughable. I guess if we believe the songs are fake we should just shut up rather than dare to accuse anyone of doing wrong.

 

[Ramona122003]

I want to see detailed comparisons that show instances in MJ songs that are a match for the tone, timbre, pronounciation, accent, vibrato etc. A match that is closer to MJ than Jason. And I want a solid explanation, backed up by sources and examples, for all the "Jasonisms" that are in these tracks. Why can't believers do this?

And I asked again, why?

 

[ginvid]

Pardon? I take this as an insult.




No-one can be sued for filing a consumer fraud lawsuit and losing it. It is wrong assumptions like this one which prevents you from making any effort in your quest for justice. The purpose of a consumer fraud lawsuit is to adjudge if one's belief in a punishable conduct of the accused is justified.

You can only be sued if you are careless enough to break the law because you are so convinced of yourself and your opinion that you go around and accuse people of crimes (outside of a lawsuit you're filing). But that has nothing to do with the case, that's what you guys are doing yourself without any justification (thus illegal) - because you're so frustrated. And that's criminal and can be penalized.

Sorry, you're wrong. Firstly you could not bring a consumer lawsuit against anyone because it would be nearly impossible to show damages.

Fraud is a deliberate misrepresentation that causes a person or business to suffer damages, often in the form of monetary losses. All of these elements are usually required for an act to be considered fraud; if someone lied about his name, for example, it would not be fraud unless in so doing, the person caused someone else to lose money or suffer some other damage. There are many different types of fraud, from identity theft to insurance fraud to falsifying tax information, and making false statements can often be one element of another crime. Although usually prosecuted in criminal court, fraud can also be tried under civil law.

If you cannot show this, then a fraud case will not fit. Therefore, you would have to find some way to prove that Sony (or whoever) is criminally negligent under some other law in order for this case to be brought out in the open. The crux of that case would have to prove that Whoever was willfully, knowingly, aware of what was going on, that they were complicit in it, and that they had a hand in covering up said crime. All very difficult for people like us to prove without someone on the inside coming forth with proof.

If you filed such a suit against someone that essentially tarnished their reputation, affected future earnings, whatever, you could absolutely be countersued for all of the above. This is to prevent people from just going around and slinging insults at people that cannot be backed up. I'm sorry, but it is your ignorance on the subject that makes people think it is ok to come into this thread and complain about what they think people are not doing. I don't know what country you are in or what laws govern you, but that is absolutely the way it works in the good ol' US of A.

 

[SoCav]

Wouldn't that be the same when doubters tell believers to shut up and leave the forum when we disagree or you're only listen to the estate or Sony? How about, where's your proof when we're not the ones charging someone with a crime and you don't know this debate, so shut up. When you come into any forum with that kind of overtone, it's fair to assume that it's okay to be a little rude since being polite would get you eating alive. Believers also rarely shoved the idea that the songs are real, but simply don't understand why the doubters didn't take more action in the months since the album release. Having fans say, we know it Jason 100% and you're wrong, is not debating in good faith.

I have been a doubter since the first time I heard Breaking News and have never told anyone here to shut up and leave the forum. Generalizing the actions (that are generally dealt with) of a few to everyone who happens to have the same opinion on this authenticity issue is petty and does not advance the debate one bit (on the contrary). People in both camps have been out of line a few times - I have seen plenty of believers shove their opinion down other people's throats as well.

 

[IvoDT]

Not true, Ramona's tone is just creating further rift for no reason.



She's way off the point by making doubters as if they were guilty of something. Her posts are inciting people to fight.




How can joking be equalled to bad mood and fans' division ?



Many changed their belief. Hoewever I haven't seen a single doubter become a believer.

You just keep on believing Ramona creates a bigger rift when there already was one for all the "crap" that has been said in this big album debate thread.

I myself find those humor/bad jokes very annoying because they have nothing to to/to add to the discussion and it feels like we "believers" are made fun of and you guys are laughing at us. Might be only me

"She's way off the point by making doubters as if they were guilty of something. Her posts are inciting people to fight."
I'll take that one specially for an answer:
As if your posts didn't make "believers" feel as if they were guilty?
I really do remember you guys accused people before, also saying poor Michael for what? Knowing you're 100% right? (

 

[StellaJackson]

And I asked again, why?

Because all those things are present in the tracks and clearly point to Jason Cupeta being a very strong contender for the vocalist. Unlike you, I won't just blindly accept something that has Michael's name on it just because someone says it's him. I care about Michael's work and those are serious questions that need to be answered.

 

[StellaJackson]

Fall In Love sounds identical to Jason to me and nothing like how Michael has ever sounded at any point in his career. That's why the vast majority of fans that hear it think it is a joke.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

You just keep on believing Ramona creates a bigger rift when there already was one for all the "crap" that has been said in this big album debate thread.

I myself find those humor/bad jokes very annoying because they have nothing to to/to add to the discussion and it feels like we "believers" are made fun of and you guys are laughing at us. Might be only me

"She's way off the point by making doubters as if they were guilty of something. Her posts are inciting people to fight."
I'll take that one specially for an answer:
As if your posts didn't make "believers" feel as if they were guilty?
I really do remember you guys accused people before, also saying poor Michael for what? Knowing you're 100% right? (

 

[IvoDT]

Fall In Love sounds identical to Jason to me and nothing like how Michael has ever sounded at any point in his career. That's why the vast majority of fans that hear it think it is a joke.

Interesting, honestly.
I have to admit, the beginning of the song sounds like young MJ to me, like the Thriller Era.
I was surprised myself with the off key, though

 

[IvoDT]

Jokes were not aimed at any fan here Ivo!

I said poor Michael because Ramona said even if Monster was fake it was better than a real one. Indeed poor Michael!

Well then, my apologies for thinking it was aimed at us. =)
And as for Ramona,
If Burn Tonight was proved to be fake, I'd still say it's better than some real ones. I love that song ^_^

 

[StellaJackson]

So, now who's being rude. Instead of accepting I may of come to my own conclusions about why I think it is Michael, I have to believe because I've blindly accepted it was Michael because someone says it's him. Really, double standard much.

How about I tell you that you believe the songs are fake because you believe T3 and you can't accept the fact that they're wrong so you go on these rants and pointless youtube channels because the songs much be fake because a Jackson said so.

Not very nice, isn't?

If you have come to your own conclusions and reasons for the songs being real then please demonstrate them to use. And who are this T3 you keep speaking of? Oh, and I don't have a youtube channel.

 

[Chamife]

Interesting, honestly.
I have to admit, the beginning of the song sounds like young MJ to me, like the Thriller Era.
I was surprised myself with the off key, though

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Well then, my apologies for thinking it was aimed at us. =)
And as for Ramona,
If Burn Tonight was proved to be fake, I'd still say it's better than some real ones. I love that song ^_^

Ok Ivo, but we're not debating anyone's taste here. it's ok to like or not like. The doubters' main concern is to label some songs as MJ's without understanding why the voice sounds so off to us.

 

[Arklove]

opcorn:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

opcorn:

And now I'm gonna terrorize you!

SHUT UP!

 

[ginvid]

MOD NOTE:

No one is going to be allowed to talk about other members for their perceived "bullying". Not out in the thread. Any instances of things that went on between members were taken care of between those members and do not need an outside referee to impose their personal opinions on the matter.

Do not demean one another by calling people "blind" or "followers". We've asked this many times. It is not allowed from either side.

If your post is missing it has been deleted for either breaking a rule or responding to someone who has. I am just saying this so people understand.

Thank you.