Michael - The Great Album Debate

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

You seriously don't think he sounds like Jason? Have you taken a look at the comparison videos?

Look at this:
[youtube]mNZZOkelZXE[/youtube]

How can you say that "Michael Jackson" in these songs does NOT sound like Jason?

Being ill and all that doesn't change his "voice" this much. We have plenty of demos of MJ simply mumbling words here and there, not evey trying to sing, where he sounds 100% like himself.

Anyone who listens to that video and claims the vocals aren't identical is lying. Simple as that. If they try to claim that there's any difference, any deviation, they better point it out. Because, to anyone with a functioning set of ears those vocals are absolutely identical.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

No, the section you posted is not political at all. (At least to me)
It is social criticism in it's purest!
It is about sticking together (the world/countries, neighbors), helping eachother & holding eachothers hand. It's about asking why it is, that you can't ask your neighbor for a favour anymore.
That's not political. It's criticism of the peoples social behavior.

I already wanted to speak out on that matter, the last time you brought that topic and this quote up. I think you clearly got the difference, between what is social and what is political, wrong.

Dear Lord...

Making a comment on societel behaviour, in as broad a context as 'nations to nations' is, by definition, a political comment. If you don't think so, go and read a dictionary. If he's talking about individual people's behaviour, that's something else, but when you're talking about 'nations to nations' you're making a political comment. Whether you understand that or not.

When Sam Cooke sings about going "to the movie and I go downtown, somebody keep telling me 'don't hang around'" he is making a political statement.

When John Lennon sings 'I hope some day you'll join us. And the world will live as one' he is making a political statement.

You people can deny Michael Jackson his art all you want in order to closer tie him to these bogus Cascio songs. But to the fans who actually care about the man's message, he was a political powerhouse. Whether you care to remember him for that or not.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Sam, You can say what you want. IMO, Jam is more of a social statement, than a political one. Especially the section you quoted.

And it has nothing to with any other tracks, or with the (like you call it) casicobogus.

I had to study both, political & social subjects. And i did it succesfully.

So don't get at me like this.

And when i say the voices are not identical,i mean it!
And i'm not lying!

You, telling me that i'm lying, is an effrontery.
And i think, you're again acting like wildfire. You can't distiguish between friend, or foe.

As long as you're behaving like that i don't talk to you anymore.

And one advise to some of you (esp. pentum):
Don't spend so much time listening to JM. It seems as you can't cope with it.

What is the point anyway?
If You believe it's JM on casciosongs, stop listening to them and don't spend time proving it to yourself again and again. Simply listen to MJ's backcatalogue and enjoy it.
It seems as you need to prove it to yourself over and over, because your all are not sure about what you are spreading.

To us, you don't need to prove anything to us (the believers). We won't relent, because we have our own believes.

 

[Maksima40]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Sam, You can say what you want. IMO, Jam is more of a social statement, than a political one. Especially the section you quoted.

And it has nothing to with any other tracks, or with the (like you call it) casicobogus.

I had to study both, political & social subjects. And i did it succesfully.

So don't get at me like this.

And when i say the voices are not identical,i mean it!
And i'm not lying!

You, telling me that i'm lying, is an effrontery.
And i think, you're again acting like wildfire. You can't distiguish between friend, or foe.

As long as you're behaving like that i don't talk to you anymore.

And one advise to some of you (esp. pentum):
Don't spend so much time listening to JM. It seems as you can't cope with it.

What is the point anyway?
If You believe it's JM on casciosongs, stop listening to them and don't spend time proving it to yourself again and again. Simply listen to MJ's backcatalogue and enjoy it.
It seems as you need to prove it to yourself over and over, because your all are not sure about what you are spreading.

To us, you don't need to prove anything to us (the believers). We won't relent, because we have our own believes.

Thank you. This JM obsession has gone way to far.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Sam, You can say what you want. IMO, Jam is more of a social statement, than a political one. Especially the section you quoted.

And it has nothing to with any other tracks, or with the (like you call it) casicobogus.

I had to study both, political & social subjects. And i did it succesfully.

So don't get at me like this.
.

In that case, very simply, explain how 'nations' can 'come together' and 'face the problems that we see' and 'work it out' without there being significant political upheavel? Explain how 'nations' can cure the ills of famine without there being SIGNIFICANT political upheavel in the affected regions. Explain how the African AIDS epidemic can be quelled without SIGNIFICANT political involvement?

And when i say the voices are not identical,i mean it!*
And i'm not lying!.

OK. Highlight the differences in the vocals, in that case. Point out where the vocals differentiate. Should be very simple if the vocals are 'not' identical.

What is the point anyway?
If You believe it's JM on casciosongs, stop listening to them and don't spend time proving it to yourself again and again. Simply listen to MJ's backcatalogue and enjoy it.

Not so easy to do if you actually care about the man.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Anyone who listens to that video and claims the vocals aren't identical is lying. Simple as that. If they try to claim that there's any difference, any deviation, they better point it out. Because, to anyone with a functioning set of ears those vocals are absolutely identical.

I've explained before, listening to a whole song, the voices aren't that similar, yes there is the vibrato, but as far as overall tone and vocal's I can pick out the differences. But of course, this is only my opinion, and in no way does that make me liar. I don't understand how you constantly sit here and belittle someone's belief. Personally speaking, I highly doubt Sony or The Estate would even risk such a thing. Some of the songs are still in a rather incomplete form even after production, ie. Stay, where a double is incorrectly over-layered and sounds as if some sentences were missing. I mean really, even Malachi knows how to make a complete song without all these error's in the initial production. If he's trying to pull this scam, he wouldn't put in the same effort he does on his own albums, to create a complete song?


I just don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something. :scratch:

 

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I don't think the vocals are that bad, I just think they're rough in a lot of places, but that's understandable, I think Michael would be somewhat horrified and very disappointed that these takes were used, it was never intended..."




And therein lies the real problem with these songs for me along with the music that was added after his death. No matter where you stand on the authenticity issues, these songs were too incomplete to be released as "Michael Jackson songs" IMO

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Annie, let us (the believers) be the wiser.
We've to stop the arguing. To me, the conspiracy-theorists are lost in the fog.
They have to find their way themselfs, in order to enjoy Michael Jackson & be happy again.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I don't think the vocals are that bad, I just think they're rough in a lot of places, but that's understandable, I think Michael would be somewhat horrified and very disappointed that these takes were used, it was never intended..."


And therein lies the real problem with these songs for me along with the music that was added after his death. No matter where you stand on the authenticity issues, these songs were too incomplete to be released as "Michael Jackson songs" IMO

That is a subject one could argue about! Thats a whole another story, than these bogus-talks.

But one can't discuss that subject, without someone coming in, screaming "FAKE"!

Maybe in time, we can talk about the real & important matters, regarding these songs.
Not this childish, "the americans never have been to the moon talk".

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

@ Samhabib
Like there is a "political" aspect (or at least coloring) implied in human and social thinking, feeling and behaviour... yes there is a political aspect in Michael's lyrics.
Less in some of them, more in other.
To call them political songs? I think there is political and social consciousness and caring for the fate of all man kind and the entire planet. And a special caring for the sick, the lonely, the segregated, the oppressed, terminal ill children and so on... Of course this caring implies or results in political consciousness.
Michael's lyrics are meaningfull for human kind, that's what you want to say Samhabib?
Of course they are.
But not always in the same way.
There's social consciousness, political consciousness, consciousness of Self, political consciousness, spiritual consciousness, cosmic consciousness... it's beyond words. Read Dancing The Dream.

But... you know, sometimes words are there to serve the Rhythm ... (and that can be a metaphore)...

I think sometimes you see it sooo "black or white" Samhabib. I don't see Michael like that. Don't put him in that harnass.
Don't focus only on political meanings. Don't fix Michael onto politics.
Sorry if I offended you, I don't want to, I want to be peacefull to people.

But sorry to everybody, all this is again a bit off topic!

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

@ Samhabib
Like there is a "political" aspect (or at least coloring) implied in human and social thinking, feeling and behaviour... yes there is a political aspect in Michael's lyrics.
Less in some of them, more in other.
To call them political songs? I think there is political and social consciousness and caring for the fate of all man kind and the entire planet. And a special caring for the sick, the lonely, the segregated, the oppressed, terminal ill children and so on... Of course this caring implies or results in political consciousness.
Michael's lyrics are meaningfull for human kind, that's what you want to say Samhabib?
Of course they are.
But not always in the same way.
There's social consciousness, political consciousness, consciousness of Self, political consciousness, spiritual consciousness, cosmic consciousness... it's beyond words. Read Dancing The Dream.

But... you know, sometimes words are there to serve the Rhythm ... (and that can be a metaphore)...

I think sometimes you see it sooo "black or white" Samhabib. I don't see Michael like that. Don't put him in that harnass.
Don't focus only on political meanings. Don't fix Michael onto politics.
Sorry if I offended you, I don't want to, I want to be peacefull to people.

But sorry to everybody, all this is again a bit off topic!

Thank You very much, Garden!

You've brought my exact thoughts on display!

Michael Jackson, wasn't one dimensional, he wasn't two dimensional.
Michael Jackson was catholic (not the religion), he was all-embracing & overarching.
Michael was, what he maybe would have called it, 4 dimensional.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'm not making any audio or video to prove it to myself, I'm doing it to prove it to other fans.

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

@ MJJunior
Thanks for appreciationg my post.
But what do you mean with "catholic" here?

So sorry to be still off topic! I try to stop it...

 

[deano]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

For those obsessed with the "vibrato" (the 'boycotters'/'anti-'Michael' brigade'/Sony haters love using this term - people might think they are experts? :wink,. go and watch MJ's 30th anniversary concert - his "vibrato" is all over the place in 2001.

Perhaps, when he laid down the voclals for the Cascio tracks, his "vibrato" was a little all over the place then as well? Let's be honest, as with any singer, they have there good moments and there bad moments - particularly if they are on medication of one sort or another.

I certainly don't expect MJ to always sound the same as he did in 1979-1983 - as some seem to on here - particularly in his latter years.

I'm sure, if MJ was around to complete the tracks, he would have had as many takes as possible to perfect the vocals for the Cascio songs. The fact that the estate had to use what they had, and make the best they could from it, should be applauded in my view. In the main, the tracks they chose to go on this album were better than some of the suggestions the 'boycotters' have mentioned. In fact, there are other tracks I would have replaced on 'Michael' before the Cascio ones.

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

No. I've said what I wanted to say. If you can't work it out, that's your problem. What I wanted to say was exactly what I said. Michael Jackson was a political powerhouse. Anyone claiming otherwise has absolutely ZERO appreciation of the man's art.

OK I get it, in your eyes Michael was a political powerhouse. Implicite he sure was, that's one reason why "the system" didn't like him.

But he was much more than that. And his lyrics and message were more powerfull than that.

I'll leave it by this.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Good for you, if that's what's important to you. But, if Michael is looking down at what is going on, do you think he would be proud of what you are doing?

I do.

Having followed MJ for 30+ years, and knowing his love for chart success, I doubt it very much.

Knowing Michael's love for honesty and integrity, he'd be absolutely disgusted by the Cascio tracks.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

OK I get it, in your eyes Michael was a political powerhouse. Implicite he sure was, that's one reason why "the system" didn't like him.

But he was much more than that. And his lyrics and message were more powerfull than that.

I'll leave it by this.

If you can't debate with me, don't bother. Michael was a political powerhouse. I DIDN'T, however, limit him to that. So stop wasting your time trying to distance me from being a fan.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Implicite he sure was, that's one reason why "the system" didn't like him.

And there's NOTHING 'implicite' about taking on the Ku Klux Klan, invoking Martin Luther King Jnr and Malcolm X, aligning himself with the Black Panther movement, challenging views on AIDS, racism, child abuse, drug addiction, the ecology, famine, etc, etc.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING implicit about that. Nor the way he discussed it.

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If you can't debate with me, don't bother. Michael was a political powerhouse. I DIDN'T, however, limit him to that. So stop wasting your time trying to distance me from being a fan.

Well, I am glad you say you don't limit Michael! You were so highlighting that political aspect that I became worried... So now I am glad.
Your last line : don't worry, when I watch closely enough I see you.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Well, I am glad you say you don't limit Michael! You were so highlighting that political aspect that I became worried... So now I am glad.
Your last line : don't worry, when I watch closely enough I see you.

It's like this - If I say Michael Jackson is one of the greatest vocalists of all time that DOESN'T mean I don't think he's one of the greatest dancers of all time. It's as simple as that.

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

And there's NOTHING 'implicite' about taking on the Ku Klux Klan, invoking Martin Luther King Jnr and Malcolm X, aligning himself with the Black Panther movement, challenging views on AIDS, racism, child abuse, drug addiction, the ecology, famine, etc, etc.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING implicit about that. Nor the way he discussed it.

You're absolutely right!
But I think you can't say (like you insinuated) that whole his oeuvre was or should be (!!!) a political powerhouse.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

And there's NOTHING 'implicite' about taking on the Ku Klux Klan, invoking Martin Luther King Jnr and Malcolm X, aligning himself with the Black Panther movement, challenging views on AIDS, racism, child abuse, drug addiction, the ecology, famine, etc, etc.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING implicit about that. Nor the way he discussed it.

Well, even though I share some views with you regarding the Cascio tracks and some Michael's political messages, I don't see Michael aligning himself with the Balck Panther movement. I know that you probably think of the MJ logo or the panther in the Black or White video, but claiming that he aligned himself with the movement would be way too radical for someone as Michael.

The seducing aspect of the Black Panthers is their pride. Proud to be black. Black is beautiful.

Michael indeed was proud to be black as he himself claimed it on the Oprah interview, but he never aligned himsef to any radical movement only because he was proud to be black. He was rather a humanitarian transcending all the races. It was precisely him who made such mix-ingredient music that all colors and nations could identify with, something which none other artist had done before. So, I wouldn't label him too much with one movement or another; he simply took out the best ingredient of each movement he could and made his own soup.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

You're absolutely right!
But I think you can't say (like you insinuated) that whole his oeuvre was or should be (!!!) a political powerhouse.

A man who is a political powerhouse is a political powerhouse. It's as simple as that. You can't be a political powerhouse in moderation.

 

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

For those obsessed with the "vibrato" (the 'boycotters'/'anti-'Michael' brigade'/Sony haters love using this term - people might think they are experts? :wink,. go and watch MJ's 30th anniversary concert - his "vibrato" is all over the place in 2001.

Perhaps, when he laid down the voclals for the Cascio tracks, his "vibrato" was a little all over the place then as well? Let's be honest, as with any singer, they have there good moments and there bad moments - particularly if they are on medication of one sort or another.

I certainly don't expect MJ to always sound the same as he did in 1979-1983 - as some seem to on here - particularly in his latter years.

I'm sure, if MJ was around to complete the tracks, he would have had as many takes as possible to perfect the vocals for the Cascio songs. The fact that the estate had to use what they had, and make the best they could from it, should be applauded in my view. In the main, the tracks they chose to go on this album were better than some of the suggestions the 'boycotters' have mentioned. In fact, there are other tracks I would have replaced on 'Michael' before the Cascio ones.

Regarding your last paragraph, I honestly believe that both Sony and the Estate took too many risks by including the Cascio songs on this album despite their best efforts. It's not like they didn't have any other material to use. In the meantime, they could have done some additional work on the controversial tracks to correct some of the issues and to more importantly gather more evidence to further substantiate their validity. As Michael is no longer here, there is absolutely nothing more damaging to a project than the question authenticity whether it comes from his family, news media or fans. They should have realized this before it was too late. Now, all future projects will also be suspect not to mention the underperformance of the present album.

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

For those obsessed with the "vibrato" (the 'boycotters'/'anti-'Michael' brigade'/Sony haters love using this term - people might think they are experts? :wink,. go and watch MJ's 30th anniversary concert - his "vibrato" is all over the place in 2001.

Perhaps, when he laid down the voclals for the Cascio tracks, his "vibrato" was a little all over the place then as well? Let's be honest, as with any singer, they have there good moments and there bad moments - particularly if they are on medication of one sort or another.

I certainly don't expect MJ to always sound the same as he did in 1979-1983 - as some seem to on here - particularly in his latter years.

I'm sure, if MJ was around to complete the tracks, he would have had as many takes as possible to perfect the vocals for the Cascio songs. The fact that the estate had to use what they had, and make the best they could from it, should be applauded in my view. In the main, the tracks they chose to go on this album were better than some of the suggestions the 'boycotters' have mentioned. In fact, there are other tracks I would have replaced on 'Michael' before the Cascio ones.

Deano there's also what Teddy Riley says : that the processing (slowing down/speeding up, pitching up/down and w h a t e v e r else...) has unfortunatelly had an effect on the vibrato's, it made them sound so unusual. In my opinion Jason's vocals in some of his songs are as well processed as Michael's (IMO) in MJ (IMO) Cascio songs, that could be why both vibrato's sound unnatural, (like they say here "goatlike"). Some of them vibrato's I hear that they don't sound like what comes directly out of someone's mouth.

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Regarding your last paragraph, I honestly believe that both Sony and the Estate took too many risks by including the Cascio songs on this album despite their best efforts. It's not like they didn't have any other material to use. In the meantime, they could have done some additional work on the controversial tracks to correct some of the issues and to more importantly gather more evidence to further substantiate their validity. As Michael is no longer here, there is absolutely nothing more damaging to a project than the question authenticity whether it comes from his family, news media or fans. They should have realized this before it was too late. Now, all future projects will also be suspect not to mention the underperformance of the present album.

Unfortunately, you are right (imo).

 

[Garden]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

A man who is a political powerhouse is a political powerhouse. It's as simple as that. You can't be a political powerhouse in moderation.

That I haven't said.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Deano there's also what Teddy Riley says : that the processing (slowing down/speeding up, pitching up/down and w h a t e v e r else...) has unfortunatelly had an effect on the vibrato's, it made them sound so unusual. In my opinion Jason's vocals in some of his songs are as well processed as Michael's (IMO) in MJ (IMO) Cascio songs, that could be why both vibrato's sound unnatural, (like they say here "goatlike"). Some of them vibrato's I hear that they don't sound like what comes directly out of someone's mouth.

Or that the vocalist is someone completely different? No? Are we going to pretend that that's not a possibility? A distinct one at that?

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

That I haven't said.

Make up your mind then. Either he's a political powerhouse or he isn't. And if he is, he isn't in moderation.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

A PPH (political powerhouse) is a PPH.

And an Angel is an Angel.

And to me Michael is & forever will be more of an Angel.

Bumper, Donalb & of course Garden (like always ):
Your last comments were superb.
Sorry, but i'm too tired to go on.