Michael - The Great Album Debate

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

It's a fact that they registered them 2 days after he died as samhabib has said. And yeah i'd agree with you that you would think they'd have more important things like grieving and crying and being in shock 2 days after MJ died than registering tracks whether they be fake or not. After all we have seen others register tracks long after MJ died. Why the rush? Truly bizarre.

 

[jmoses]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

So they didn't register these songs two days after he died? Yes. They did. And made millions when selling them. All fact, I'm afraid. It's amazing what people will do for money. As Michael once said.

Registering the songs doesn't necessarily suggest anything sinister.

They could've been tying up loose ends, given the passing.
A lot of legal things need to be sorted out when someone dies. It's not that far fetched.

The Cascios wouldn't have even needed to be involved. A solicitor can take care of these things given instruction.

It's not as if their grieving had to be interrupted.

Think about it.

 

[Ohood]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yeah, I'm sure Eddie sold his friend out TWO DAYS AFTER HE DIED. Yeah right!!!

Think if your mother, your brother, any sort of family member you've been raised with since childhood, died. You think only two days later you'd be able to try to register fake songs in his name?

'Yay, Michael's finally dead! We can go do this now!'

No, I'm sure they were still mourning very much so after ONLY TWO DAYS. I know I was and Michael wasn't even close to me in that way!

and Teddy who was in tears for weeks , is also ready to sell MJ for three songs although he prodcuced three albums !

 

[Aniram]

^ Exactly! I find it so highly unlikely that after two days, Eddie was more interested in the cash than mourning the passing of his dear friend, practically a family member, with the rest of his family.

I'll say it again, Jason Malachi songs are no where near the quality of Michael's Cascio tracks.

Jason comes up with cliché melodies that have been used in boy bands for the past twenty years. Michael's tracks are actually quite original.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Exactly! I find it so highly unlikely that after two days, Eddie was more interested in the cash than mourning the passing of his dear friend, practically a family member, with the rest of his family.

It doesn't matter what you, personally, find unlikely.

Michael Jackson died. The songs - LYRICS ONLY - were registered two days later. Eddie Cascio makes $5 million dollars from the sale of those lyrics to Sony.

I wouldn't have thought that was possible, but there you have it.

 

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yeah, I'm sure Eddie sold his friend out TWO DAYS AFTER HE DIED. Yeah right!!!

Think if your mother, your brother, any sort of family member you've been raised with since childhood, died. You think only two days later you'd be able to try to register fake songs in his name?

'Yay, Michael's finally dead! We can go do this now!'

No, I'm sure they were still mourning very much so after ONLY TWO DAYS. I know I was and Michael wasn't even close to me in that way!

To be fair, we really don't know the nature of Michael's friendship with Eddie. We also don't know to what extent Michael participated in the writing or formation of these lyrics. This is not to say that I believe the tracks are fake. It is quite possible that they are geniune and that Eddie registered them when he did simply to protect his interest. However, we also have to accept the possibility that an opportunity may have been taken here to exaggerate Michael's involvement in the project given what this could bring in terms of money and fame. Everything is possible even during times of grief...(remember the Joe Jackson press conference?)

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

The Cascio family were already very wealthy, I don't think they needed the cash.

You really don't think Eddie was mourning Michael's passing just two days after he died? Wow, Eddie must be quite the heartless person. I wonder what Michael must have saw in these terrible people that he'd call them his second family?

And it definitely does matter what I find, personally, highly unlikely, because you also seem to really care about how you, personally, feel.

 

[jmoses]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

After all we have seen others register tracks long after MJ died.

The songs registered later were done by the estate when logging MJ's tapes in search of unidentified songs.

The Cascio's would've had more of a burden to tie up these loose ends immediately.

You know, if the songs were registered a couple of months after MJ passed you guys would say "why did they wait so long? - clearly they were writing fake songs" etc.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

The point is Michael's been sold out and betrayed numerous times before....Why is it so hard to believe that this could possibly be happening again?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Because there's tons of footage of Eddie growing up with Michael. Michael was one of Eddie's biggest influences, and best friends. I'm positive that Eddie was devastated when he heard Michael had died, as well as the entire Cascio family.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If there's one thing I hope we can all agree on, it's that including these tracks on the album was a huge mistake.

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Look it just doesn't make sense. Samhabib is it correct that only the lyrics were registered? Nothing else?
WHY? Why would they only register lyrics?
Think about it people.

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Lets just back up for one second and consider the likelihood of MJ even agreeing to work with the Cascio's.

MJ has always worked with established, big name producers, Quincy, Darkchild, Riley, Jam & Lewis. And he's always co-written songs with professional songwriters (Bill Bottrell, Bryan Loren, David Foster, Dr Freeze etc). He has NEVER co-written songs with random unknown amateurs before.

Lets be honest here, if MJ was still alive and he released a brand new album, do you really believe that the songwriting skills of Eddie Cascio would feature alongside songs produced by the likes of will.i.am, Teddy Riley and Darkchild? Do you honestly think that Michael Jackson is that charitable to his friends that he would co-write and produce songs with complete amateurs? We're talking about Michael Jackson here. He wouldn't even work with The Neptunes even though they practically begged him. He refused to work on songs even with his own family. And we're expected to believe that he co-wrote these songs with an Italian restaurant owner??? They don't even sound like MJ's style, except in subject matter.

As for the authenticity of the vocals, the biggest question I have for the believers is this: Why is that there isn't even one moment where he sings all out on the Cascio songs? I'm talking about the kind of vocals only MJ can do, where he's spitting out the lyrics in that grovelly aggressive way - the way he sings on practically every single up-tempo song he's done since Bad. He even sings like this on his ballads, look at a song like Heaven Can Wait for example ("Can't stand to see nobody kissing touching her"), One More Chance ("tell her this from MEEE-EEEE") or his ad-libs at the end of You Are My Life.

There is not one single moment of this on any of the five Cascio tracks we've heard. The feeble attempts at ad-libbing on songs like Monster and Breaking News don't have an ounce of the vocal strength that Michael usually delivers. Listen to the ad-libs on Unbreakable or Slave To The Rhythm or Threatened and compare it to the cringeful, weak falsetto ad-libs on Monster. It's an absolute insult to suggest that these songs are sung by Michael Jackson.

 

[samhabib]

Look it just doesn't make sense. Samhabib is it correct that only the lyrics were registered? Nothing else? WHY? Why would they only register lyrics? Think about it.

It sure is!

"Indeed, two days after Jackson died–on June 27, 2009–Cascio filed a copyright claim along with Michael Jackson and another songwriter for something called “MJ Songbook.” The filing is just for lyrics."

From the Cascios biggest bandleader, Roger Friedman.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2010/05/03/new-michael-jackson-album-may-pose-legal-problems

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Well my response has always been that these songs are first and foremost demos. Ergo, he wouldn't sing all out. Plus, MJ was always looking for new talent and for a new sound. I wouldn't say it's unbelievable that he'd sing and write with Eddie, considering how MJ has collaborated with people all of his life.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ When was Slave to the Rhythm recorded? And maybe Michael was only recording the songs with Eddie because he was staying there, never stopped writing music, and needed some way to get his ideas recorded?

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If MJ recored the tracks in 2007 why on earth did they only register lyrics? Only one possible answer to that question i'm afraid.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^^ Definitely scary to think about....

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'd say a good answer is that there was no names to the songs. As Aniram said, perhaps MJ just needed to record his ideas, as his musical process never stopped. None of us know how extensively he recorded there.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Well my response has always been that these songs are first and foremost demos. Ergo, he wouldn't sing all out. Plus, MJ was always looking for new talent and for a new sound. I wouldn't say it's unbelievable that he'd sing and write with Eddie, considering how MJ has collaborated with people all of his life.

Firstly, the demo excuse has been argued hundreds of times before and simply has no legs. We've heard dozens of demos in various stages of maturity and all of them sound like MJ. That excuse does not wash.

On your second point, I don't think MJ would seriously consider using anything done with the Cascios (if indeed he did anything) on an album, but would certainly not say no to a friend. He may have done it out of politeness, but not with any serious intention.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

These are what we know according to Roger Friedman, who has done all he can to sell these tracks as legitimate:

"Indeed, two days after Jackson died–on June 27, 2009–Cascio filed a copyright claim along with Michael Jackson and another songwriter for something called “MJ Songbook.” The filing is just for lyrics. An earlier filing. from March 2008, is labeled “JPEC Collection.” The song titles in each collection are not specified in the Library of Congress’s database, but it’s possible that Cascio updated his 2008 filing after Jackson died to reflect the superstar’s contribution to material Cascio had already written–and wisely registered."

...If that's the case, why did they need to update the 2008 copyright two days after he died? If he recorded them in 2007???... Tell me...I'm all ears...

My timeline:

Before MJ stayed @ cascio home in 2007: Porte & Cascio write some songs. Having in mind presenting them to MJ & working with him on these tracks. (Porte worked with MJ before)

MJ stays @ cascio home 2007: Michael starts working with cascio on these tracks, sings some demos/guide vocals. Not the best equipment, not MJ in his best form, not as motivated, as he would be, if recording a real take (he, MJ, works in a basement). But as songs are already in an advanced state (he has lyrics which only need MJ-modification & tweaks) he is able to record different verses, some adlibs, aditional sounds, does some experimenting/changes with the lyrics, but not complete. And not in a vocally state he would release it, even not as a demo.

Late 2008: MJ gets in 'This Is It' negotiations. Later he decides to work further on these tracks with eddie, in London 2009.

Midway 2009: The sadest Day. MJ can't work on these songs any further, he passed away.

June 27th '09: Cascio registers the lyrics in the state, in which MJ left them with him.


Why should he pull a fake stunt 2 days after MJ died? He would have all time in the world, wouldn't he?
Why would he register lyrics, which make (according to you) so no sense, like KYHU/Monster?
When he has all time in the world, to write, to record with the best impersonator out there & then to register that fake stuff? Why???

Eddie knew MJ's biggest effort in the last ten years were his Kids & getting through this F***ed Up Case. He didn't put as much energy in writing & recording, as in Bad-, Dangerous-, HIStory-, Invincibletimes. So Eddie & James P. did some writing for him.

This songs were crafted in a different way, then MJ worked before. Before he had month & month studio time. He could concentrate on music, composing & the lyrics came last.
This time the lyrics where there in some form, from the beginning. So he was able to work in another way. He wouldn't have had the time, nor the joy spending month after month in a studio, knowing his kids would grow out of childhood in this time. Plus the huge concert series...


Of course this is ALL IMO. And is also often speculative.
But your cascio betraying their 25 year long friend - story is NOTHING more.


And then...

(And yes, I believe that the Cascio's cashed their 'friendship' chips in when Michael died. I have absolutely no doubt about it, in fact. The fact that they happily sold them to Sony - KNOWING what Michael felt about Sony - stinks to high heaven. But hey... what do I know, right?)

OMG, OMG, OMG! What was Michael thinking of Sony after Thriller 25? After the Success of 'The Essential'? After 'Visionary'?
And LONG AFTER Tommy M. wasn't at Sony anymore?

Tell me please, what he was thinking?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Also, the fact that he refused to work with his family isn't a very good argument, to me, because it seemed almost like Michael was closer to the Cascios than any of his family members, who he had kind of distanced himself from.

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Jesta i really don't think that's a good reason. How could the 'tracks' not even have names if according to what we've been told the vocals were recorded in their entirety by MJ in 2007 with James porte only doing backround vocals?
Being close to someone doesn't equate to recording music with them.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ That's pretty much what I'm saying. He'd probably only seriously working with Eddie once he had more experience, MJ probably used these sessions to mentor Eddie. As for the demo excuse, as MJ never seriously considered working with Eddie as much as other producers, so didn't really try. That being said, MJ not trying is still amazing compared to other artists, IMO.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If the lyrics are registered, wouldn't anyone using the same lyrics be stealing? If the lyrics are the same as in the songs, wouldn't the songs be practically registered in that way? Plus, how else are you going to register a capella tracks? They're only lyrics, anyway, no music to go along with it.

 

[ivy]

- Late registration of the songs (2007 vs 2009)

doesn't mean a thing and make songs fakes. Brad Buxter and MJ estate registered "Hollywood Tonight" at December 2009 and that's a song done during Invincible (2001)

- 2 days after MJ's death registration

Why don't you look to the whole picture. Michael died on Thursday. By Monday morning Katherine was assigned as Special Administrator (Katherine's lawyers went to the court saying that Michael died without a will and Katherine should be in control of her son's estate. )

If Cascios and Jacksons didn't get along (we all seen Cascio's being called betrayers by Taryll) and they thought Jacksons will run the estate , they had a short window of time to register the songs and legally protect their rights.

Michael Jackson died. The songs - LYRICS ONLY - were registered two days later. Eddie Cascio makes $5 million dollars from the sale of those lyrics to Sony.

Look it just doesn't make sense. Samhabib is it correct that only the lyrics were registered? Nothing else?
WHY? Why would they only register lyrics?
Think about it people.

It sure is!

"Indeed, two days after Jackson died–on June 27, 2009–Cascio filed a copyright claim along with Michael Jackson and another songwriter for something called “MJ Songbook.” The filing is just for lyrics."

From the Cascios biggest bandleader, Roger Friedman.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2010/05/03/new-michael-jackson-album-may-pose-legal-problems

sorry but this is wrong - it's a mistake done by Roger Friedman.

when you look to the registration it's clearly not lyrics only - it has "Sound Recording and Music" classification. and they claim authorship of " Authorship: sound recording, performance, production, compilation, lyrics"

And to be classified as "sound recording and music" they need a copy of the song to be sent (uploaded online) to copyright office and

the registration date copyright office list is the date they receive all the necessary documents/files.

It all shows that copyright office were given an audio copy of the songs on June 27.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If the lyrics are registered, wouldn't anyone using the same lyrics be stealing? If the lyrics are the same as in the songs, wouldn't the songs be practically registered in that way? Plus, how else are you going to register a capella tracks? They're only lyrics, anyway, no music to go along with it.

Well then someone is lying, in that case. Because Roger Friedman claims he heard these songs back in 2006 without Michael on them (even though he later says they were written in 2007).

So lyrics with no music, minus Michael Jackson, equals??? Absolutely nothing.

You're claiming that Michael Jackson recorded 12 songs without any music? Is that what you're honestly proposing?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Thanks for the wonderful informative reply, ivy.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Thanks for your info, Ivy! Very interesting.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

You're claiming that Michael Jackson recorded 12 songs without any music? Is that what you're honestly proposing?

No, I remember them saying there were rough background tracks, but I was pretty sure that they just used the a capellas and pretty much completely rewrote the music around them.

That's what I'm honestly proposing, samhabib. Sheesh.