Michael - The Great Album Debate

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'd like to see that in writing Ivy. Do you have a link?

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Well my response has always been that these songs are first and foremost demos. Ergo, he wouldn't sing all out. Plus, MJ was always looking for new talent and for a new sound. I wouldn't say it's unbelievable that he'd sing and write with Eddie, considering how MJ has collaborated with people all of his life.

They don't sound like demos. They are clear cut vocals with complete lyrics. If MJ's recording a demo take he usually mumbles half the lines, talks a little bit before or after the song etc.

Even on a song like Blue Gangster - which has an absolutely stellar vocal delivery - you can still tell it's not quite complete, there are a few lines where he sounds as if he's improvising. There's none of this on the Cascio songs. There is no way that those vocals are supposed to be demo guides, the vocals are clearly finished and complete.

Which begs the question: Why is he not singing all out on ANY of these songs??

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I think he sings all out on Monster and Breaking News. They are both powerful, upbeat songs. KYHU, Stay, and All I Need are more typical slow Michael Jackson tracks.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

- Late registration of the songs (2007 vs 2009)

doesn't mean a thing and make songs fakes. Brad Buxter and MJ estate registered "Hollywood Tonight" at December 2009 and that's a song done during Invincible (2001)

Can you prove that wasn't an update to an already recorded copyright, to reflect Teddy and Taryll's contributions???

- 2 days after MJ's death registration

Why don't you look to the whole picture. Michael died on Thursday. By Monday morning Katherine was assigned as Special Administrator (Katherine's lawyers went to the court saying that Michael died without a will and Katherine should be in control of her son's estate. )

If Cascios and Jacksons didn't get along (we all seen Cascio's being called betrayers by Taryll) and they thought Jacksons will run the estate , they had a short window of time to register the songs and legally protect their rights.

Man, they really made the most of that window then, didn't they? $5 million dollars better off! Great timing. Shows that their primary concerns weren't mourning Michael Jackson, but trading him in.

sorry but this is wrong - it's a mistake done by Roger Friedman.

when you look to the registration it's clearly not lyrics only - it has "Sound Recording and Music" classification. and they claim authorship of " Authorship: sound recording, performance, production, compilation, lyrics"

And to be classified as "sound recording and music" they need a copy of the song and
the registration date they list is the date they receive all the necessary documents/files.

It all shows that copyright office were given an audio copy of the songs on June 27.

But the songs weren't finished by the 27th of June. In fact, Teddy Riley wasn't involved until 2010. And 50 Cent hadn't written and he didn't record his part by 27th of June. So the songs WEREN'T finished by June 27.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Registering the songs doesn't necessarily suggest anything sinister.
They could've been tying up loose ends, given the passing.
A lot of legal things need to be sorted out when someone dies. It's not that far fetched.

Thats it, there is absolutly NOTHING sinister to it.

When some "normal" person dies, there are a hell of a lot of things to do and to organize.

And when someone like MJ dies, i imagine, it is crazy of what you have to think & do.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

@MattyJam

It's really not that unbelievable. They wouldn't keep any spoken parts before or after the song in songs that have been brought to completion. Plus there have been demos where he has sung most, if not all of the lyrics, like "Monkey Business". That being said, they would cut out any mumbling bits in a bid to complete it.

EDIT: If you listen to the a capella of "Breaking News", you can see that the lead vocals are "empty". You could say that he could've mumbled during those empty times. But the Cascio songs have less MJ lead vocals than most of the songs on the album. Ergo, it seems to me that he didn't record extensively.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

@MJJuniorSinceMW: Oh, I'm sure it was absolutely insanity. It's hard to think about... It still makes me very sad every day to realize he's gone. I can't imagine what it's like for the Cascios. God bless them.

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I think he sings all out on Monster and Breaking News. They are both powerful, upbeat songs. KYHU, Stay, and All I Need are more typical slow Michael Jackson tracks.

No he doesn't. Which parts of those two songs do you think he sings all out?

On Breaking News he ad-libs in falsetto for pete's sake! When Michael Jackson is doing an angry up-tempo track he doesn't ad-lib at the climax of the song in a whispery falsetto. He sings all out, he sounds pissed off, he uses that amazing grovelly aggressive tone which I've never heard a single impersonator successfully duplicate. See Unbreakable, Jam, Threatened, Slave To The Rhythm, Scream.

Put it this way, when I try and sing along to Michael's vocals, I usually can't hit at least half the notes. I could sing all of Monster and Breaking News without a struggle.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Well then someone is lying, in that case. Because Roger Friedman claims he heard these songs back in 2006 without Michael on them (even though he later says they were written in 2007).

So lyrics with no music, minus Michael Jackson, equals??? Absolutely nothing.

You're claiming that Michael Jackson recorded 12 songs without any music? Is that what you're honestly proposing?

Again twisting words!!!

And assuming to conspiracy...

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

When he screams "YOU KEEP ON BREAKING, THE NEWS (HOO!), BREAKING! THE NEWS (HOO!)" and goes "On the news today, they say we're crazy (celebrity), and on the screen today we're on display" sounds superb, in my opinion.

The ending of Monster is very powerful. I'll admit, there's some ad-libs from other tracks in there, but the whole thing sounds great.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Again twisting words!!!

And assuming to conspiracy...

No. YOU assume a conspiracy if you believe those despicable songs are Michael Jackson's.

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

When he screams "YOU KEEP ON BREAKING, THE NEWS (HOO!), BREAKING! THE NEWS (HOO!)" and goes "On the news today, they say we're crazy (celebrity), and on the screen today we're on display" sounds superb, in my opinion.

The ending of Monster is very powerful. I'll admit, there's some ad-libs from other tracks in there, but the whole thing sounds great.

That part in Breaking News sounds like a terrible imitation. There's none of the usual grit in his voice.

The ending of Monster is where it's most obvious. Especially the part where he sings "why you stalkin me, why you hauntin me, why'd you do it"... That is the sound of a vocal impersonator who has blatantly studied the ad-libs from Privacy.

Shameless.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

What's so bad about them? Two of them are about how terrible the media is and paparazzi, which is very true. Keep Your Head up sounds incomplete, but is very uplifting. All I Need is absolutely beautiful. Stay is fun, romantic, and pretty.

Jason Malachi tracks seem self-absorbed, amateur, and produced by some hip-hop artist who repeats the same loop for 3 minutes.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

In all fairness, assuming that everything is correct at face-value doesn't seem to indicate a conspiracy. The belief in a big cover-up with several people in on it is the conventional belief, if I recall.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

My timeline:

Before MJ stayed @ cascio home in 2007: Porte & Cascio write some songs. Having in mind presenting them to MJ & working with him on these tracks. (Porte worked with MJ before)

MJ stays @ cascio home 2007: Michael starts working with cascio on these tracks, sings some demos/guide vocals. Not the best equipment, not MJ in his best form, not as motivated, as he would be, if recording a real take (he, MJ, works in a basement). But as songs are already in an advanced state (he has lyrics which only need MJ-modification & tweaks) he is able to record different verses, some adlibs, aditional sounds, does some experimenting/changes with the lyrics, but not complete. And not in a vocally state he would release it, even not as a demo.

Late 2008: MJ gets in 'This Is It' negotiations. Later he decides to work further on these tracks with eddie, in London 2009.

Midway 2009: The sadest Day. MJ can't work on these songs any further, he passed away.

June 27th '09: Cascio registers the lyrics in the state, in which MJ left them with him.


Why should he pull a fake stunt 2 days after MJ died? He would have all time in the world, wouldn't he?
Why would he register lyrics, which make (according to you) so no sense, like KYHU/Monster?
When he has all time in the world, to write, to record with the best impersonator out there & then to register that fake stuff? Why???

Eddie knew MJ's biggest effort in the last ten years were his Kids & getting through this F***ed Up Case. He didn't put as much energy in writing & recording, as in Bad-, Dangerous-, HIStory-, Invincibletimes. So Eddie & James P. did some writing for him.

This songs were crafted in a different way, then MJ worked before. Before he had month & month studio time. He could concentrate on music, composing & the lyrics came last.
This time the lyrics where there in some form, from the beginning. So he was able to work in another way. He wouldn't have had the time, nor the joy spending month after month in a studio, knowing his kids would grow out of childhood in this time. Plus the huge concert series...


Of course this is ALL IMO. And is also often speculative.
But your cascio betraying their 25 year long friend - story is NOTHING more.


And then...


OMG, OMG, OMG! What was Michael thinking of Sony after Thriller 25? After the Success of 'The Essential'? After 'Visionary'?
And LONG AFTER Tommy M. wasn't at Sony anymore?

Tell me please, what he was thinking?

@ mattyjam:

The crafting of these songs has been different than on others!
Thats why there are full (more or less) lyrics.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Michael also seemed like someone who was in a rush to get songs as complete as he could before the ideas went away. He would work for hours and hours and hours on a song, late in to the night, just to finish it.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Can you prove that wasn't an update to an already recorded copyright, to reflect Teddy and Taryll's contributions???


But the songs weren't finished by the 27th of June. In fact, Teddy Riley wasn't involved until 2010. And 50 Cent hadn't written and he didn't record his part by 27th of June. So the songs WEREN'T finished by June 27.

answer to both : producers and additional vocals do not need to be credited on copyright. (If Teddy or Taryll were added their names will be on the list so no. Estate and Brad registered 7-10 songs all on the same date)

example 2bad copyright registration

Type of Work: Music
Registration Number / Date: PA0000787770 / 1996-03-21
Title: 2bad.
Appears in: History--past, present, and future, bk. 1. Epic E2K 59000, c1995. 2 compact discs
Publisher Number: Epic E2K 59000
Performer: Performed by Michael Jackson.
Publishing, Mijac Music
Date of Creation: 1995
Date of Publication: 1995-06-20
Authorship on Application: words: Michael Jackson; music: Dallas Austin, Rene Moore, Bruce Swedien.

example this time around

Type of Work: Music
Registration Number / Date: PA0000826413 / 1995-08-15
Title: This time around
Appears in: History--past, present and future. Epic EK 59000, c1995. 2 compact discs
Publisher Number: Epic EK 59000
Performer: Performed by Michael Jackson.
Copyright Claimant: Mijac Music, Darp Music, EMI April Music
Date of Creation: 1995
Date of Publication: 1995-06-20
Authorship on Application: words & music: Michael Jackson; music: Dallas Austin.

Neither registration lists Notorious BIG or Shaquille O'Neal or lists any producer credits.

And these are different than the Cascio registrations, these are released songs updated registration - still they don't include any of those people you mention. Simply because registration is mainly about who wrote the lyrics and who wrote the music.

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

What's so bad about them? Two of them are about how terrible the media is and paparazzi, which is very true. Keep Your Head up sounds incomplete, but is very uplifting. All I Need is absolutely beautiful. Stay is fun, romantic, and pretty.

Jason Malachi tracks seem self-absorbed, amateur, and produced by some hip-hop artist who repeats the same loop for 3 minutes.

They just sound like somebody trying to be Michael Jackson.

It's not too hard to imitate a lower register, which is why the first verse on Monster and KYHU sound as if they could be Michael.

But it's impossible to imitate the kind of powerful, all out singing he does at the end of Earth Song, or the end of Slave To The Rhythm or the second verse of Blue Gangster. You just KNOW nobody can sing like that except Michael Jackson.

The person singing on the Cascio songs does none of that.

 

[Graf]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I understand the whole "It's a demo, he wasn't using his full voice." Then why are we able to tell it's Michael for sure on his previous demos...why is it that the Cascio tracks exclusively are causing the troubles? Why is there a debate about if the vocals are actually him, isn't that kind of a sign that they should have just left them off?

I can understand why people will defend or attack the hell out of these songs, because we are are sticking to our beliefs, we are all defending what we believe in.

Then you have people going "Oh look, your a conspiracy theorist and I'm logical because I believe they are him." Give me a break, those who don't believe it's him is because, honestly it doesn't sound like him fully. I see a lot of "I think it's Michael.." , Should we really be saying that we "think" it's him? That doubt exists so strongly, basically ever since the random streaming of "Breaking News". Regardless if they are him or not, I honestly just want all the Cascio songs to just go away, there is so much doubt in them that they will never be perceived in a fully positive light, ever.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I understand the whole "It's a demo, he wasn't using his full voice." Then why are we able to tell it's Michael for sure on his previous demos...why is it that the Cascio tracks exclusively are causing the troubles?

Because we've been influenced or brainwashed and have no capacity to make our own judgements.

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Iwhy is it that the Cascio tracks exclusively are causing the troubles?

Exacty.

No doubt someone will reply with "He was trying out a new style."

:smilerolleyes:

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

They just sound like somebody trying to be Michael Jackson.

It's not too hard to imitate a lower register, which is why the first verse on Monster and KYHU sound as if they could be Michael.

But it's impossible to imitate the kind of powerful, all out singing he does at the end of Earth Song, or the end of Slave To The Rhythm. You just KNOW nobody can sing like that except Michael Jackson.

The person singing on the Cascio songs does none of that.

Are you sure? Earth Song is an amazing song, but Michael really outdid himself on it, and he couldn't do a very good job at recreating it live, so he had to lipsync it. Have you watched This Is It? Listen to him on Earth Song, he sounds old, tired, and weak. He can hardly do it, and it sounds kind of painful, as much as I love Michael.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Are you sure? Earth Song is an amazing song, but Michael really outdid himself on it, and he couldn't do a very good job at recreating it live, so he had to lipsync it. Have you watched This Is It? Listen to him on Earth Song, he sounds old, tired, and weak. He can hardly do it, and it sounds kind of painful, as much as I love Michael.

Listen to the ad libs at the end Earth Song of the Royal Brunei concert....Possibly the BEST ALL OUT adlibs I've EVER heard from him....

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'm talking about This Is It. Listen to it, it sounds weak. I know he has sounded amazing at other shows, I've seen almost all of his live performances available.

Also, sounds like lipsyncing in that performance, you can tell his singing doesn't match his mouth and how much force he's using.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

answer to both : producers and additional vocals do not need to be credited on copyright.

example 2bad copyright registration

Type of Work: Music
Registration Number / Date: PA0000787770 / 1996-03-21
Title: 2bad.
Appears in: History--past, present, and future, bk. 1. Epic E2K 59000, c1995. 2 compact discs
Publisher Number: Epic E2K 59000
Performer: Performed by Michael Jackson.
Publishing, Mijac Music
Date of Creation: 1995
Date of Publication: 1995-06-20
Authorship on Application: words: Michael Jackson; music: Dallas Austin, Rene Moore, Bruce Swedien.

example this time around

Type of Work: Music
Registration Number / Date: PA0000826413 / 1995-08-15
Title: This time around
Appears in: History--past, present and future. Epic EK 59000, c1995. 2 compact discs
Publisher Number: Epic EK 59000
Performer: Performed by Michael Jackson.
Copyright Claimant: Mijac Music, Darp Music, EMI April Music
Date of Creation: 1995
Date of Publication: 1995-06-20
Authorship on Application: words & music: Michael Jackson; music: Dallas Austin.

Neither registration lists Notorious BIG or Shaquille O'Neal or lists any producer credits. And these are different, these are released songs registration.

Additional songwriters don't need to be credited? Is that what you're claiming?

It takes up to 16.5 months for the processing of a copyright claiming to be complete. The above looks like the processed claims. Hence the 2Bad registration date of 1996. Where as the Cascios FILED their claims on the 27th of June.

16.5 months from 27th of June leads us to, let's see, November 2010? Just in time for Breaking News to be leaked? Worked out beautifully...

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Are you sure? Earth Song is an amazing song, but Michael really outdid himself on it, and he couldn't do a very good job at recreating it live, so he had to lipsync it. Have you watched This Is It? Listen to him on Earth Song, he sounds old, tired, and weak. He can hardly do it, and it sounds kind of painful, as much as I love Michael.

Michael is miming Earth Song on TII. It's taken from a demo vocal of the track.

But Earth Song is just one of many examples of MJ's grovelly aggressive singing style. He does it all the time, on practically every up-tempo since Bad. The ability to sing like that is unique to Michael Jackson.

And yet he doesn't do it once on the Cascio songs.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'm talking about This Is It. Listen to it, it sounds weak. I know he has sounded amazing at other shows, I've seen almost all of his live performances available.

Also, sounds like lipsyncing in that performance.

There's no lip syncing at the end of that performance...

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Michael is miming Earth Song on TII. It's taken from a demo vocal of the track.

But Earth Song is just one of many examples of MJ's grovelly aggressive singing style. He does it all the time, on practically every up-tempo since Bad. The ability to sing like that is unique to Michael Jackson.

And yet he doesn't do it once on the Cascio songs.

I highly doubt that. I'll upload the clip of him singing it, if you don't believe me, and I'm positive it's him singing.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Are you sure? Earth Song is an amazing song, but Michael really outdid himself on it, and he couldn't do a very good job at recreating it live, so he had to lipsync it. Have you watched This Is It? Listen to him on Earth Song, he sounds old, tired, and weak. He can hardly do it, and it sounds kind of painful, as much as I love Michael.

The adlibs on This Is It are from the original Earth Song demo. They're not live vocals. And he sounds fantastic on the demo.

[YOUTUBE]mhBCbg2f8ao[/YOUTUBE]

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Are you sure? Earth Song is an amazing song, but Michael really outdid himself on it, and he couldn't do a very good job at recreating it live, so he had to lipsync it. Have you watched This Is It? Listen to him on Earth Song, he sounds old, tired, and weak. He can hardly do it, and it sounds kind of painful, as much as I love Michael.

Throughout the whole movie he is obviously saving his voice. Remember IJCSLY? He mostly uses his falsetto instead of his aggressive voice to do this, and used the demo-take vocal of Earth Song to practice with. I would have thought that was obvious (?)