Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Jesta]

The doggin' part is where the first "hauntin' me" is in Monster, but it could be an effect of speeding up the vocals.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

Actually, it's not where the "hauntin'" is. It's actually after the first "hauntin" in which he follows with "Why you stalkin' me". Except it doesn't say "stalkin'" in the dance mix, it says "Doggin'". It's only heard once then the regular lyrics come in after it.


It's either "Doggin'" or the way the vocals have been sped up, altered "stalkin'", but that wouldn't explain why the other "stalkin'" is heard just fine merely a few seconds later.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

@bumper

you really should read Frank's book to understand the relationship and the family aspect.

Ivy, I am not interested in violating Michael's privacy out of respect for what he wanted to keep away from the public eye. I respect Michael's will. It's a question of ethics and moral values for me.

I am interested in Michael's art, in Michael Jackson as a wonderful human being as he chose to show himself to the public. People writing about Michael's private life and relationship isn't my cup of tea, I let that to the gossipists. What Michael had to say about himself and his relationships and private life, he had already said it himself.

 

[love is magical]

Well, you advocate for objectivity in reasoning, so I am a bit surprised to see among all seemingly loigical reasoning a choice to believe ones and doubts other based simply on people's track record, despite the fact that 3Ts don't have any. At the same tim you yourself used the argument of not mixing up people because they come from the same family, for example when it came to the Cascios. Let's be fair and do the same with the 3Ts.




Yet, Michael trusted Katherine enough to take care of the most precious he had - his children.
We don't know the relationship between 3T and Michael, and we don't know actually more with the Cascios. We don't have Michael's version at all. We have only hersays. It's too easy now that MJ is dead.

And please, Roger Friedman is just an opportunist, I am sick of him.



Have you ever tried to imagine how would it be if you were judged by people who don't know the relationship between you and your family, only the top of the iceberg.

No matter what we say, the Cascios were there for Michael when he was alive, fine. But have they ever had the chance to argue about anything? You know, a real family is when you can argue with them. If you've never argued with your family, your boyfriend or your friends, then something is really wrong.

Very true. Many fans assume that Michael was closer with the Cascios than with Katherine or any of the Jacksons. We fail to recognize that we all are seeing things from afar. We simply have no idea what the true family relationship was.

At the end of the day, Michael trusted Katherine with his children. He named Diana Ross as secondary guardian. And, when was the last time Michael saw Diana? We dont know. There is no record. Family communication is often held in private. We can't determine the closeness or fondness of the relationship as it is not our place to do so.

Some fans' perpetual judgemental attitude towards anyone with the last name Jackson is appalling.

 

[StellaJackson]

@bumper

you really should read Frank's book to understand the relationship and the family aspect.

Frank's book is not accurate. For example: the events of Munich 99 are heavily embellishd. I shoud know. I was there. But ultimatly, none of this changes the way the tracks sound. While certain family members are not to be trusted (LaToya for example who has proven this by spouting nonsense over the years), I have seen no reason to doubt the very legitimate concerns raised by Taryll and Taj. Having said that, I recognised Jason in the album tracks before I was aware of any family concerns and before I saw any fans mention him online. I stayed away from forums so as not to have the songs spolit.

 

[Pentum]

Actually, it's not where the "hauntin'" is. It's actually after the first "hauntin" in which he follows with "Why you stalkin' me". Except it doesn't say "stalkin'" in the dance mix, it says "Doggin'". It's only heard once then the regular lyrics come in after it.


It's either "Doggin'" or the way the vocals have been sped up, altered "stalkin'", but that wouldn't explain why the other "stalkin'" is heard just fine merely a few seconds later.

It's actually "why you do it" and it's in the album version @ 4:16..

 

[WhoIsIt89]

It's actually "why you do it" and it's in the album version @ 4:16..

It's not that either. I know the lyrics of this song from top to bottom.

In this dance mix it goes from 5:20..."she don't wanna be a star, she don't wanna go far, why do you be stalkin' me, ahhaaaa, what you do to me, why did you do it, why you fake it, yeaaaa, why you hauntin' me, why you doggin' me."

 

[StellaJackson]

It's why you hauntin me, why you stalkin me, same as the album version.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Someone please provide me with the link of that remix? What seems to be the problem actually?

 

[love is magical]

@bumper

you really should read Frank's book to understand the relationship and the family aspect.

I read Frank'sbook and enjoyed it. But, i would not trust Frank's version of events completely, for his account is third person account. Often, he wrote about his point of view. I'm not saying he's a liar. It's just that his memory and his version may not be accurate or factual.

Regarding Michael's relationship with his family, I honestly don't think I obtained additional insights from Frank's book. He spok very diplomatically about the Jacksons.

 

[ivy]

So let's look over to some Jacksons versus Estate situations.

Randy, Latoya and Joe are overly against Estate. Jermaine is a lot more mild. Janet doesn't give any opinions but she's highly close to Randy.

Jackie, Tito and Marlon seem to be supportive of the Estate. Especially recently. Jackie is highly involved and supportive of Estate projects.

Katherine's position changes at one moment she says Michael feared Branca on the other moment she says executors do a good job or protect them against Latoya's claims. Honestly it seems her change of heart seems to be money related. For example when she's in a deal with Howard Mann and need HTWF trademarks she seems to be against the Estate but when Estate bails her from Korean lawsuit she moves to their side.

There's been serious attempts against Executors both legally (lawsuits from both Joe and Katherine) and in public opinion (Randy, Latoya, Joe and Katherine have spoken against the Estate). Privately they have been supporting groups against Estate and even riling them up for protests. Recently a video of Latoya and Joe in such event surfaced, Randy also maintains communications.

These fan groups against Estate has used everything they can from misinformation to protests. They openly say their goal is to remove Executors and replace them with Jacksons. This is still ongoing. For example Branca will receive an award in February based on his service in legal life - not related to Michael - but these groups plan to protest and embarrass him.

Now let's talk about facts. The only person that had any chance to remove the executors was Katherine but she withdrew her objection. So that ship has sailed. The only way now the executors can be removed is by wrongdoing on their part such as fraud. Remember this it will become very important.

As these fan groups and as the Jacksons desire has been to replace the executors with Jackson family members. We learned through a payment request, they wanted to replace or include one or more of 3T (Taj, Taryll and TJ) as an executor. This brings 3T into the Jacksons versus Estate debate.

Now all of the above are the reason that I said I wouldn't be surprised if this in the future turns out to be something to be against the Estate. As I said before I'm not saying Taryll etc are lying. They genuinely can have concerns. All I'm saying is if it turns out to be not genuine I wouldn't be surprised.

Let's return to the executors and their position and their removal.

First of all they get 5% each and they make millions of dollars for being executors (probably over 10 million a year as gross income). Even without sony deal and michael album they would be making millions from other projects (Cirque, Bravado, Experience, Fan fest and so on). And they will be making millions as they stay as executors. So you can see that their best interest is to keep their position.

Now remember that as they are court appointed , as any objections are withdrawn and as time to pay any objections have passed, the only way they can be removed from their position is a wrongdoing on their part. This also shows us that they are the least likely party to be involved in any wrongdoing or a fraud. They earn millions every year and they have no motive to jeopardize the future millions of dollars that they are going to earn. That also explains why they went and did costly investigations because this is the only thing that can remove them from their position and they cannot afford to ignore or say we are sure and that's that. They need to cross their t's and dot their i's.

Now if you flip the coin, and add the fact that Estate is in probate and their deals are approved by the court and their accounting has been reported to court, there's limited - if any- chance for any wrongdoing on Executors part and therefore their removal. So these songs and this debate could have been what the people waiting for against the Estate. Claiming that they are fake could serve a purpose. Yes it's a conspiracy theory and just a possibility in millions of other possible scenarios, just after seeing and knowing everything I do, if it turns out to be real, it wouldn't surprise me.


Also a side note: As I mentioned there have been fan groups against Executors and I attracted some attention due to by informational posts. All of my information has been through public sources or court documents that I have paid from my own wallet, yet these fans alleged that it was Estate supplied to me to hurt my credibility. Similarly more than once I have heard feedback about my posts from Estate. Sometimes even without my asking they contact me and provide me information as well (such as recently after seeing my assumptions about Michael album sales on News and Happenings, they provided me the sales numbers). Anyway I used this chance to ask for some documents from Branca so that it can stop this group against the Executors (To be clear it had nothing to do with the songs or the doubters - We are talking about a different group here). The answer I got was understandable : Court had already determined their position, there would be always some detractors regardless of how much information they provide so they would rather focus their whole attention to their duties.

As I said million times before I think the same applies in this situation. Regardless of how much they provide it's not going to make a difference. For example even though they provide you the most detailed report from the unarguably worlds best expert it's not going to change what you believe or what you hear. (example: a few posts above you have Stella saying "none of this change how this tracks sound" - that's exactly my point). Their time can be better spent by accepting there will always be doubters and focus on the duties ahead of them.

 

[StellaJackson]

I don't think anyone here believes the Estate were involved in fraud.

And they didn't provide a report because there isn't anything of substance. Their duties shoud have been to show any and all proof to show the songs are real, both for Michael's credibility from the estate perspective and to sell more copies of the album from the Sony prspective.

 

[Pentum]

It's not that either. I know the lyrics of this song from top to bottom.

In this dance mix it goes from 5:20..."she don't wanna be a star, she don't wanna go far, why do you be stalkin' me, ahhaaaa, what you do to me, why did you do it, why you fake it, yeaaaa, why you hauntin' me, why you doggin' me."

I understand that you hear "dogging" me, but it's actually "stalking me" like in the album version, only sped up along with some effect over the voice (like in the whole mix).

Listen closely: http://hulkshare.com/kffkzzdi3nul

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I read Frank'sbook and enjoyed it. But, i would not trust Frank's version of events completely, for his account is third person account. Often, he wrote about his point of view. I'm not saying he's a liar. It's just that his memory and his version may not be accurate or factual.

Regarding Michael's relationship with his family, I honestly don't think I obtained additional insights from Frank's book. He spok very diplomatically about the Jacksons.

I really am not attracted by he said, she said kind of literature.

Michael could have written his autobiography after Moonwalk. He chose not to. Instead he gave some interviews, and that's it.

As you said, despite all, he preferred knowing that his children are surrounded by the Jacksons than by the Cascios anyway, no matter what people say.

I see Frank's literature as pure gossips and opportunity to cash in thanks to the fact that he knew Michael. I am not saying, telling a few anecdotes, everyone does it. But making business out of it? I am not buying it.

 

[StellaJackson]

Edit.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

So let's look over to some Jacksons versus Estate situations.

Randy, Latoya and Joe are overly against Estate. Jermaine is a lot more mild. Janet doesn't give any opinions but she's highly close to Randy.

Jackie, Tito and Marlon seem to be supportive of the Estate. Especially recently. Jackie is highly involved and supportive of Estate projects.

Katherine's position changes at one moment she says Michael feared Branca on the other moment she says executors do a good job or protect them against Latoya's claims. Honestly it seems her change of heart seems to be money related. For example when she's in a deal with Howard Mann and need HTWF trademarks she seems to be against the Estate but when Estate bails her from Korean lawsuit she moves to their side.

There's been serious attempts against Executors both legally (lawsuits from both Joe and Katherine) and in public opinion (Randy, Latoya, Joe and Katherine have spoken against the Estate). Privately they have been supporting groups against Estate and even riling them up for protests. Recently a video of Latoya and Joe in such event surfaced, Randy also maintains communications.

These fan groups against Estate has used everything they can from misinformation to protests. They openly say their goal is to remove Executors and replace them with Jacksons. This is still ongoing. For example Branca will receive an award in February based on his service in legal life - not related to Michael - but these groups plan to protest and embarrass him.

Now let's talk about facts. The only person that had any chance to remove the executors was Katherine but she withdrew her objection. So that ship has sailed. The only way now the executors can be removed is by wrongdoing on their part such as fraud. Remember this it will become very important.

As these fan groups and as the Jacksons desire has been to replace the executors with Jackson family members. We learned through a payment request, they wanted to replace or include one or more of 3T (Taj, Taryll and TJ) as an executor. This brings 3T into the Jacksons versus Estate debate.

Now all of the above are the reason that I said I wouldn't be surprised if this in the future turns out to be something to be against the Estate. As I said before I'm not saying Taryll etc are lying. They genuinely can have concerns. All I'm saying is if it turns out to be not genuine I wouldn't be surprised.

Let's return to the executors and their position and their removal.

First of all they get 5% each and they make millions of dollars for being executors (probably over 10 million a year as gross income). Even without sony deal and michael album they would be making millions from other projects (Cirque, Bravado, Experience, Fan fest and so on). And they will be making millions as they stay as executors. So you can see that their best interest is to keep their position.

Now remember that as they are court appointed , as any objections are withdrawn and as time to pay any objections have passed, the only way they can be removed from their position is a wrongdoing on their part. This also shows us that they are the least likely party to be involved in any wrongdoing or a fraud. They earn millions every year and they have no motive to jeopardize the future millions of dollars that they are going to earn. That also explains why they went and did costly investigations because this is the only thing that can remove them from their position and they cannot afford to ignore or say we are sure and that's that. They need to cross their t's and dot their i's.

Now if you flip the coin, and add the fact that Estate is in probate and their deals are approved by the court and their accounting has been reported to court, there's limited - if any- chance for any wrongdoing on Executors part and therefore their removal. So these songs and this debate could have been what the people waiting for against the Estate. Claiming that they are fake could serve a purpose. Yes it's a conspiracy theory and just a possibility in millions of other possible scenarios, just after seeing and knowing everything I do, if it turns out to be real, it wouldn't surprise me.


Also a side note: As I mentioned there have been fan groups against Executors and I attracted some attention due to by informational posts. All of my information has been through public sources or court documents that I have paid from my own wallet, yet these fans alleged that it was Estate supplied to me to hurt my credibility. Similarly more than once I have heard feedback about my posts from Estate. Sometimes even without my asking they contact me and provide me information as well (such as recently after seeing my assumptions about Michael album sales on News and Happenings, they provided me the sales numbers). Anyway I used this chance to ask for some documents from Branca so that it can stop this group against the Executors (To be clear it had nothing to do with the songs or the doubters - We are talking about a different group here). The answer I got was understandable : Court had already determined their position, there would be always some detractors regardless of how much information they provide so they would rather focus their whole attention to their duties.

As I said million times before I think the same applies in this situation. Regardless of how much they provide it's not going to make a difference. For example even though they provide you the most detailed report from the unarguably worlds best expert it's not going to change what you believe or what you hear. (example: a few posts above you have Stella saying "none of this change how this tracks sound" - that's exactly my point). Their time can be better spent by accepting there will always be doubters and focus on the duties ahead of them.

Ok I read it, but there is one thing that I really disagree with.

Contrary to their claim, they did not provide a single further information after the investigation other than their word. So saying that no matter how much information they provide it wouldn't make any difference is outragesly false!

As I said earlier, before they released the tracks I do hope they had genuine tracks and they were 100% sure thgey had them, so they say.
However, after hearing those tracks, regardless of anything what you rported here in your post, there is a real problem either with those tracks or with some of the fans ears. Other explanations than that does not exist.

So they investigated and analysed those tracks. So, after their investigation, what other proof than their word did they provide? Nothing. Just words.

So before or after the investigation nothing was provided, thus nothing changed. So they should stop saying that no matter how much info they provide there'l bee doubts. It's completely false because they as a matter of fact did not provide anything at all.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

I suppose you don't know the relationship between Jackson's and the Estate.

Katherine Jackson tried to remove them, Joe Jackson tried to remove them, some family members said the will was fake and that Branca made the will fraudulently, for months they tried to add one of the 3T as an executor, Latoya wrote on his book and went on TV saying that Michael hated Branca, Katherine Jackson gave similar statement, family tried to do many projects all of which was stopped by Estate - and there's a huge anger there even today, they even accused of him being in someway involved in his death.

This is not a professional relationship with a disagreement. This is a "I hate you, you are a criminal, I'll badmouth you in every chance, you stop what I want to do, I'll get you removed" type of relationship. Read Taryll's tweets, they didn't know that Estate will release a statement and when he tried to learn if it's indeed from the Estate, he couldn't get ahold of Weitzman. Reportedly Estate didn't want them to be involved from the start.

I think it's very possible that Estate might be totally ignoring and not forthcoming towards them.

Note: Do not underestimate human nature and do not generalize it as "professional relationship". For example : Here a lot of people said Eddie must answer their questions but totally omitted how they acted towards him. In reality it's you reap what you sow. For example in my real life when working with the music band, I had been a target of hate of a group and I choose to ignore them. I wouldn't take their calls - get assistants/other people say that I'm not available. I wouldn't answer any of their questions, reply with "I don't know" etc. Was it professional? Probably not but I didn't care. They were a group of people that hated me and threatened me and I ignored them as much as I could and I didn't feel like I must answer their questions or fulfill their requests.



Bumper the reason that you ask is not because you expect a confession, it's because you show due diligence and move the responsibility to the other party. So they don't ask Jason with an expectation of "yes", they ask him so that they can say "we also asked the alleged soundalike and he denied his involvement" and if it turns out that it's Jason singing they can say "he lied to us, he made us believe it wasn't him". Is it clear now?

Yesterday I said Branca is a lawyer and he acted like a lawyer. Try to approach the situation from a legal perspective. You would see that the behavior then makes sense.

furthermore if Taryll was in a state that he wouldn't believe anything that can be said to him as Teddy says, They could have gone with a costly investigation method. Most people will accept objective results. Such as if a woman comes forward and says "you are the father of my baby" and then a DNA test proves it, most people will accept it. They might have gone to rational investigation / tests way to provide that and bring the debate to something more than "he said - he said". You see that in this thread "he said - she said" doesn't bring anything to the table, everyone still thinks the same way, we reject what other is saying and running in circles. so they might have thought "let's get the costly forensic experts" and hope that it would be enough to stop a reasonable eperson's concerns. It's also an insurance policy for the future - from legal perspective.



no one said they are lying but they could be simply mistaken. We also see that "proof" doesn't matter. Even though Randy Jackson acknowledges the forensic experts he doesn't accept their results and come with "they did not hear what I hear" and "they work for money" reasons for rejection.

secondly you again need to reconsider the relationship. Could the months and hundreds thousand of dollars spent by Jacksons to put one of the 3T as an executor be a reason? For example Latoya Jackson wrote on her book that there were a note in Michael's house that said "I hate Branca". We have seen the notes during the trial - there's no hate messages. It's all future plans and motivational notes. And when I asked that to the online team they said scoffed and said ask Latoya to show a copy of the note - and there is not a copy. So why is Latoya lying? (Even in a situation when all the notes are photographed by the LAPD. note: she also said that his room was "littered" with hundreds of notes) . We all saw the photos there's only a handful of notes on his bathroom mirror and on some doors.)

similarly why would Joe Jackson and Brian Oxman and Leonard Rowe in affidavits claim that Michael supported Joe by giving him 50-60K a month but then when asked in an interview Joe would say Michael wasn't supporting him. Why would they lie?

Why would HTWF spent a year fighting Estate and not mention Michael's alleged approval but then produce a letter from Brian Oxman dated in 2011 saying Michael gave permission to them in 2005. Wouldn't that be the first thing you say when people accuse you of not being authorized? Why do they lie and create documents against the Estate?

Unfortunately Jackson's do not always act by considering what is in the best interest of Michael. There have been example after example that they put their own interests first.



Teddy says "my session" so it seems like there could be multiple sessions. Still it doesn't matter from forensic experts perspective.



that's not the point. Some argue that because the hacked server didn't have any raw acapellas, they don't exist. The point of it such originals, masters, raw vocals etc can be under lock and key in a physical location and not uploaded to a server. This is not limited to Cascio songs and has nothing to do with authenticity. All I'm saying is that we can't come to conclusions based on what is found or not found on one server.




I wrote that some people reject this but I don't understand what more people need. Branca on record said 1-2 more full new material albums. People has been asking questions to Joe Vogel and he's been confirming some songs aren't recorded or isn't in a stage to be released. There's been another recent mention of the duets album. It seems possible.

Plus I didn't say Estate / Sony is lying to everyone, I said they might not be forthcoming to Jacksons. We only heard that erased and so on. from Taryll. It doesn't fit with what we know, it's not mentioned at Estate statement, and even Teddy's tweets say different things.



and no one is denying that, the point is they are probably not complete. Look even hollywood tonight has a bridge missing. So he could have recorded a thousand songs but they could be one verse or a chorus and so on. There might not be enough vocals to release them on their own. In posthumous releases this is handled with duets. Teddy said this and there have been a recent article that said duets idea is scrapped.

We'll wait and see. I didn't say it as a definitive thing but if you add 1 + 1 , it makes sense. If we are to ask "why they are so adamant on these Cascio songs?" question to ourselves and if the possible answer is "because perhaps they don't have that many releasable material", it makes sense.



you can always challenge them in court. Joking aside generally it would be based on their work background. Not Estate statement but later inside rumors for example labelled these experts as "worked for FBI". So if an expert is the choice for USA government to identify Bin Laden's voice for example, that would probably make him "best in nation", again work experience would be the thing to differentiate any experts.

Remember Murray trial and how they spent sometimes an hour going over the experts credentials, education, work history, CV? I'm sure there's no ranking list for "best anesthesiologist in USA" but after hearing Dr. Shafer's credentials can anyone deny that he's one of the best in the nation and perhaps even in the world?






Jason has nothing to do with New Jersey or even New York. He's born raised and still lives in Maryland.

That's why I try to ignore everything from the Jackson family.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

OK, I see your point. But first, I don't know if the Jacksons act as one body, second, despite all these, there is no reason to lie from the Estate's or SONY's part to them. A firm "no" from their part would be sufficient rather than even seem to engage in any kind of justification or lie.



Ignoring them is one thing, lying to them is completely another thing and frankly unnecassary.



You always seem to think that people either overestimate things or underestimate things. When we are talking about SONY company or the Estate, supposedly experienced businessmen. It is absolutely not underestimating when talking about lies and business. What experienced businessman would lie? Either you ignore people or you issue a clear (diplomatic or not) "we regret to inform you that we are unable to consider your request" phrase rather than "we erased the data" or "the computer broke down" or "the hard disk couldn't be saved". I mean, those lies can't be taken seriously by anyone, especially if you want to brush people off.




I think you missed my point here. You assmued that I didn't know why they simply asked Jason was it him or not. I know very well that his "yes" could backfire to him if ever it appears that he lied. But hey, when Clinton said he never had a sexual relationship, he lied, didn't he. He didn't say yes I had a sexual relationship. Further on when it was shown that he as a matter of fact did have a sexual intercourse, he replied to it "it depends how you define a sexual relationship".

So, two points, first Jason, despite knowing the risks could lie anyway, and probably later on defend himself by some other stuff he knows but doesn't reveal.
Second, and that was my point that you seem to have missed, why on Earth would Estate or SONY prefer to go trhough costly investigations rather than simply saying "yes" or "no" to the Jacksons' request?



Well yes, Branca opted to do it, but those were not the only options.

First of all, he could have provided the copies to the Jacksons' request. What's the big deal?
Second, they could simply say "no" instead of lying.
Third they could simply ignore the Jacksons' request.
Fourth, when you know that your vocals are 100% Michael's, you don't even need to do any kind of investigation, do you?

If you tell me I am not the author of my book, Pentum is. Then fine, think it's Pentum. Why would I need to investigate something I know 100%? It would be up to you to investigate, not up to me.

So, in this case, the Jacksons, and us the doubters are to investigate, not Branca or anyone else. A part of our investigation is to ask Branca, SONY, about the tracks. And also a part of our investigation is to get further info about Estyate's/SONY's investigation.

Who did they act for? Themselves? By lying, investigating and then hiding the details? Or, us the fans who are requesting more transparency, more details and more communication? None of them seem to cooperate with the fans.

We always have to raise the fuss before they listen to us. An example, when the controversy about the tracks broke out, they decided to maintain them on the album depsite fans' anger, yet they said in the report that we were the ones who will judge! We did judge! We did tear apart! But did they listen? No. So, their statement that the fans will be the judges was nothing else but a bad joke.

Another example, the Crique du Soleil. They knew about the controversy, yet they were about to include the controversial tracks. I mean, why would they do that? Luckily this time they listened to the fans, but what I don't get is why was it so difficult to hold back those tracks before they could provide with solid proofs they're Michael's? They're indeed playing the gods of music ignoring the effects on MJ's fans. I can't see anything else but rush for cashing in in this whole story. Branca without Michael is just helpless and hopeless.



As I said earlier. Without even listening to the tracks. When you step back and take only the facts:

a) Fan community familiar with MJ's voice
b) MJ's songs
c) Cascio songs
d) Soundalikes

(a) hear (b) = usual sound, (it's MJ, it is no one else)
(a) hear (c) = unusual/unexcusable sound for ones (is it MJ?), usual/excusable for others (MJ, but...)
(a) hear (d) = unusual sound (is it MJ?, it is for some, it is not for others)

From this observation alone, without listening to the tracks. What are the chances that MJ fools the fans into hearing a soundalike compared to a soundalike abilities to fool people into thinking that they hear MJ?




Ok, any valuable thing would be locked. Understandable. oke:




Well, I guess as far as releasable material is concerned we can only sit and wait. Let's not forget however that there are a huge number of videos that are unreleased such as concerts "Triumph", "Victory", "Bad", "History", "Captain EO" in 3D, etc.



Nobody seems to contradict Taryll's statement about telling him that everything was destroyed. Again why would he make up something like "they told me they erased them" or "the computer broke down", etc. Why would you judge Taryll without knowing him, yet opt to believe the estate not being transparent with us fans who included the songs despite fans' angry reaction after streaming of Breaking News. If you believe ones, you can believe others. If you don't trust ones, then don't trust others either.



Well, yes. But I was referring to the things I read in the 80s actually. That tehre were dozens of fully recorded songs that never made it on the albums. It is true that in the meantime some of them leaked like Niteline, Trouble, etc. But still, there must be some songs that have been recorded afterwards, for example during Invincible sessions. And I am just curious if Michael recorded full songs with Will I Am or if it was simply in process of creation.



I won't challenge anyone in court, because there is no proof. It would be a waste of time and money. I already stated it, the absence of proof does not mean that the case is either over or that the truth prevailed.

Regarding the expression "one of the best", well it's his job, I hope people are the best in their field. But how can anyone be sure that this or that person is one of the best in his field? You must work in the same field in order to claim such a thing.

By the way, saying "one of the best" doesn't mean "the best" and "the second best". There are clearly huge nuances and especially a purpose in choosing such terms.




Ok, thanks for the info.

I think that when they told Taryll that the computer broke it was in a smart ass way to get him to leave.


Taryll: Can I see the computer or hear the outtakes ?

Estate or who ever told him that: Nah it broke.

 

[ivy]

Contrary to their claim, they did not provide a single further information after the investigation other than their word. So saying that no matter how much information they provide it wouldn't make any difference is outragesly false!

So they should stop saying that no matter how much info they provide there'l bee doubts. It's completely false because they as a matter of fact did not provide anything at all.

bumper I said that discussion was in regards to fan groups against Estate and that's what they said then. I made it clear that it had nothing to do with songs issue and the doubters.

in the next paragraph I said "I think the same applies here"

so they aren't making any claims and whatever they said wasn't about the songs.

 

[Jesta]

Love, did you donate to MJJC JUST for the Dangerous eyes?

 

[Rudolf]

I dislike cascios. That's what I say.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

That's why I try to ignore everything from the Jackson family.

Well, Michael never really ignored them. His children are in the middle of the nest of "bad, bad wolves" such as the Jacksons.

I think that when they told Taryll that the computer broke it was in a smart ass way to get him to leave.


Taryll: Can I see the computer or hear the outtakes ?

Estate or who ever told him that: Nah it broke.

Which means it's a lie. Which also means they could lie for other things and to the fans as well.

 

[love is magical]

I think that when they told Taryll that the computer broke it was in a smart ass way to get him to leave.


Taryll: Can I see the computer or hear the outtakes ?

Estate or who ever told him that: Nah it broke.

In a civilized society, people don't solve problems by giving false information. Deceiving creates more confusion.

Imagine the following:

Reporter: "Mr. Romney, since you are a potential presidential candidate, please release your past three years' tax returns."

Romney: "No, I won't. My tax returns are burnt."

I'm sure Mitt Romney won't like to release his tax returns, since his tax bracket is lower than his secretary and most Americans. But, he sure will come up with a better excuse than "my tax returns are burnt (equivalent to the hard drive is destroyed.).

 

[love is magical]

Love, did you donate to MJJC JUST for the Dangerous eyes?

I sure did. I get to have my own pair df Dangerous eyes.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

bumper I said that discussion was in regards to fan groups against Estate and that's what they said then. I made it clear that it had nothing to do with songs issue and the doubters.

in the next paragraph I said "I think the same applies here"

so they aren't making any claims and whatever they said wasn't about the songs.

OK, I was basically concentrating my mind on the songs, because they are the real issue here.

 

[Jesta]

I sure did. I get to have my own pair df Dangerous eyes.

Hmm... That gives me an idea for a potential future present that - as is my speciality - I create rather than spending out big bucks!!!



... But what can I do with the Dangerous eyes... Hmm...

 

[ivy]

I don't think anyone here believes the Estate were involved in fraud.

okay so if we all agree they have no reason to be involved in the fraud but on the contrary to have all the more incentive to be not involved in it then there's no reason to suspect their statement or their expert.

And they didn't provide a report because there isn't anything of substance.

like I said they can only be removed due to wrongdoing and they are betting their futures on these songs. I tend to think they are probably confident in their results.

Furthermore you need to think logical:

if Estate isn't involved, if they have no incentive to be a part of it or keep silent, if on the contrary they have all the reason to legitimately make certain that these songs are real to keep their positions and protect their future, then the next logical question would be "could a fake by Cascio / Malachi fool a legitimate evaluation of authentication?"

and then you are left with two possible results

- as they passed a legitimate evaluation they are really authentic - they are Michael.
- they were able to fool a legitimate evaluation - therefore there's no way to prove it's not Michael.

Either possibility doesn't look that good for doubters.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

okay so if we all agree they have no reason to be involved in the fraud but on the contrary to have all the more incentive to be not involved in it then there's no reason to suspect their statement or their expert.



like I said they can only be removed due to wrongdoing and they are betting their futures on these songs. I tend to think they are probably confident in their results.

Furthermore you need to think logical:

if Estate isn't involved, if they have no incentive to be a part of it or keep silent, if on the contrary they have all the reason to legitimately make certain that these songs are real to keep their positions and protect their future, then the next logical question would be "could a fake by Cascio / Malachi fool a legitimate evaluation?"

The Estate can indeed not be involved, but it doesn't mean that they weren't fooled. And the same goes for the experts. The Estate is however responsible for their strategy. As I said, Branca is maybe a very good businessman, but without Michael he's short sighted to such an extent that he couldn't predict how much these songs would harm some fans,... well a big number of fans. He just opted to go by what experts say. Furthermore, if he really wanted to make some kind of damage control, he'd better release some details regarding the analyses. There's no reason to keep them secret, unless he is hiding something from the public.

 

[love is magical]

Btw, I don't understand why we are making the release of lyric sheets, work tapes and voicemail sound like such impossible daunting tasks. Didn't they do the same thing fo songs like Hollywood Tonight, Best of Joy and TWYLM?

If they have lyrics, they could have printed them in the booklet of the album, just like HT.

If they have work tapes, they could have played them like the way Neff U did in the Making of Michael documentary.

Again, why not? Not really that much of extra efforts from them, but can provide peace of minds to many.

 

[Pentum]

Cause there are none.