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IvoDT
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Chamife;3579634 said:
Sorry for the late response on this comment, but those lyrics for Burn Tonight are Incredibly inaccurate, lolol.
It's more like this,
Quema esta noche
Uh
Mi amor
Haaa-uh heey heey
Read you from a mile away
Lips that make it easy to adore
A taste of me
Let the fountain pour
Girl I'm in a state of sin
Ooh I wanna taste your skin
Ooh I wanna
Girl I kinda wonder
If we can drown again
If you can touch me again
See we will dance
Like fire to my skin, we burn again
Girl I wanna testify
Ooh come on and let me light the fire (Ooh-ooh-ooh)
We can make it burn tonight
Baby come on and let me light ya fire (Haaa-aah-aaay)
Ain't no need to justify (Haa-aah-aah)
Ooh come on and let me light the fire
We can make it burn tonight (Fi-i-ire)
Rain and thunder when you burn tonight
I can't believe I've sinned in heaven now
Feel the fire
We're burning like hell again tonight
My sole desire
A-can't nobody stop the thing we got
It makes you wonder
A friend of mine
Sexy wind
Baby why play me like a toy?
When you say
Take me again
The way that we dance
We passionately stop to burn again
Girl I wanna testify (Ooh ooh)
Ooh come on and let me light the fire (Yeah,girl)
We can make it burn tonight (We make it burn)
Baby come on and let me light ya fire (We make it burn)
Ain't no need to justify (Hee-hee)
Ooh come on and let me light the fire (Eeh-hee-hee)
We can make it burn tonight
Rain and thunder when you burn tonight (We, we make it)
Uh, ah, ow, ah
(Uhh)
Girl I wanna testify (Oh yeah)
Ooh come on and let me light the fire (Gonna’ makin’ me)
We can make it burn tonight (You’ making me burn)
Baby come on and let me light ya fire (We can make it burn)
Ain't no need to justify (Burn,burn,burn)
Ooh come on and let me light the fire (Burn,burn,burn)
We can make it burn tonight
Rain and thunder when you burn tonight (Just let it burn)
Girl I wanna testify (Just,uh)
Ooh come on and let me light the fire (Just let it burn)
We can make it burn tonight (Hee-hee)
Baby come on and let me light ya fire (Fi-i-i-re)
Ain't no need to justify (We make it burn)
Ooh come on and let me light the fire (We can making it burn)
We can make it burn tonight (Ow)
Rain and thunder when you burn tonight (Uh ah)
Quema esta noche…
And to be offensive,
If you really think Barbie Girl is better than you are either trolling or... wait nvm, doubters think the songs are pure crap anyway. =D
See what I did there?
ADKIc3mAnX
Proud Member
Sony claimed that the vocals were confirmed real.
Calisto
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ivy;3579299 said:
Read Howard Weitzman's statement again:
- - -
"Six of Michael's former producers and engineers who had worked with Michael over the past 30 years – Bruce Swedien, Matt Forger, Stewart Brawley, Michael Prince, Dr. Freeze and Teddy Riley – were all invited to a listening session to hear the raw vocals of the Cascio tracks in question. All of these persons listened to the a cappella versions of the vocals on the Cascio tracks being considered for inclusion on the album, so they could give an opinion as to whether or not the lead vocals were sung by Michael. They all confirmed that the vocal was definitely Michael."
"The Estate then retained one of the best-known forensic musicologists in the nation to listen to the vocals without any instrumental accompaniment ("a cappella"), and to compare them with a cappella vocals from previous Michael songs. This expert performed waveform analysis, an objective scientific test used to determine audio authenticity, on the Cascio tracks, as well as previously released tracks with Michael's voice, and reported that ALL of the lead vocals analyzed (which included Cascio tracks) were the voice of Michael Jackson."
"Sony Music conducted their own investigation by hiring yet a second well-respected forensic musicologist who also compared the a cappella lead vocals from [the] Cascio tracks against previously released vocals of Michael's, and found that Michael's voice was on all sets of the raw vocals. The Cascio tracks were also played for two very prominent persons in the music industry who played crucial roles in Michael's career. Both of these individuals believed that the lead vocals were Michael's."
- - -
The words "raw" and "a cappella" never appear directly side-by-side, but instead are used interchangeably to represent the same thing.
Now refer back to what Cory Rooney wrote on Facebook:
- - -
"I can't believe they released a Michael Jackson single that's not really him! Trust me, people! I sat in a session where we solo'd the vocals and it was just someone set up to sound like [Michael], and the only parts that really sounded like him were the samples from older records of his. There was nothing that was consistent with any of his previous recordings as far as vocal control or just plain habits. Last but not least, when we asked if there were any outtakes or alternate tracks, they said that they were erased because they needed to make room on the hard drive! Who does that? Tell me who would erase anything with Michael Jackson's voice?"
- - -
So, the "raw" tracks that were played at the Estate's listening session still contained sampled Michael Jackson vocals.
That would mean the aforementioned tracks were possibly a cappella versions of the "pre-mixes," would it not? (Either the early pre-mixes that leaked online or later pre-mixes produced by Teddy Riley and company...)
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I personally think the session Taryll was in and the producers was in two different things.
This is my scenario :
Teddy on his twitter rants said that 3T wasn't allowed in the studio and after he left McClain's studio and went to his own he invited Taryll (and possibly other Jacksons). Taryll said he was in the studio when the songs was delivered - probably to Teddy - probably pre-mixes - already has the pasted adlibs.
Taryll (and other Jackson's) started to question the songs and started to ask questions but Estate / Sony didn't even entertain them and simply said "don't have any, deleted them etc.". Look to Cory's quote "if there were any outtakes or alternate tracks", well according to Birchey there are alternate tracks. He told us that the leads aren't one track (or one copy pasted track) but some songs had several tracks. Since Birchey told us that I have questioned if Jackson's know everything. It's important to remember that the Estate - Jackson relationships aren't or weren't that good.
So anyways after these complaints was raised, Branca acted like any lawyer and asked Weitzman to show due diligence and investigate it. So they did the calls to Jason, musicians worked with Michael sessions and hired forensic experts. They felt "confident" with their investigation as Epic statement said and decided to go forward with it.
Now let's assume that they played the pre-mixes to the producers but it still doesn't matter in regards to expert testing. Because 1) we know that the added adlibs are separate tracks (according to birchey they were labelled as MJ grunts and so on) and not a composite with the leads 2) from previous posting about voice identification experts / machines are able to differentiate between different takes and copy pastes. I mean look even here people just by listening is pointing out places that sound different and then go to find the match. I think that leading experts in forensics would be capable of that as well.
Another reason that I think there are raw vocals is that Teddy said that he had Porte's backgrounds separately , however we never heard about separate tracks for Porte vocals on the premixes.
ps : I also think Cory Rooney is just repeating what Taryll is saying. I can't imagine why he would be in a listening session.
This is my scenario :
Teddy on his twitter rants said that 3T wasn't allowed in the studio and after he left McClain's studio and went to his own he invited Taryll (and possibly other Jacksons). Taryll said he was in the studio when the songs was delivered - probably to Teddy - probably pre-mixes - already has the pasted adlibs.
Taryll (and other Jackson's) started to question the songs and started to ask questions but Estate / Sony didn't even entertain them and simply said "don't have any, deleted them etc.". Look to Cory's quote "if there were any outtakes or alternate tracks", well according to Birchey there are alternate tracks. He told us that the leads aren't one track (or one copy pasted track) but some songs had several tracks. Since Birchey told us that I have questioned if Jackson's know everything. It's important to remember that the Estate - Jackson relationships aren't or weren't that good.
So anyways after these complaints was raised, Branca acted like any lawyer and asked Weitzman to show due diligence and investigate it. So they did the calls to Jason, musicians worked with Michael sessions and hired forensic experts. They felt "confident" with their investigation as Epic statement said and decided to go forward with it.
Now let's assume that they played the pre-mixes to the producers but it still doesn't matter in regards to expert testing. Because 1) we know that the added adlibs are separate tracks (according to birchey they were labelled as MJ grunts and so on) and not a composite with the leads 2) from previous posting about voice identification experts / machines are able to differentiate between different takes and copy pastes. I mean look even here people just by listening is pointing out places that sound different and then go to find the match. I think that leading experts in forensics would be capable of that as well.
Another reason that I think there are raw vocals is that Teddy said that he had Porte's backgrounds separately , however we never heard about separate tracks for Porte vocals on the premixes.
ps : I also think Cory Rooney is just repeating what Taryll is saying. I can't imagine why he would be in a listening session.
Let's read between the lines
similar to TII, similar to Michael's masters at Cirque, I think originals , raw vocals, acapellas etc including but not limited to Cascio songs are at physical lock and key and not online at a server.
family wasn't given access or information. this might have continued after the concerns as well. Estate didn't want them involved and even when they asked questions they could be given "don't have it", "it's lost", "the dog ate it" etc to brush them off.
so they heard pre-mixes at Teddy's studio.
although many people don't accept it I think releasable, complete songs could be limited. There have been an interview with Branca a year ago in which he said there's only 1-2 album worth of material, Randy Taraborellu saying there's 17-18 songs, Teddy Riley saying Michael recorded partially and one album will be duets, and recent article that says there will be one more unreleased material album.
Although Michael might have hundreds of ideas not many of their vocals might be recorded enough for release. That explains why Cascio songs described as "complete" when let's say compared to just a verse being recorded. It also explains why even they might be poor quality got released and why still Sony is so adamant to stop leaks and might entertain future release of them.
Jacksons wasn't at the musicians listening session. Randy wasn't there and other Jackson's wasn't there as randy uses the word "someone" . As he refers to Taryll as "my nephew", he's not "someone".
This confirms that there was indeed vocal authentication is done and they have given it's Michael results. Randy explains "it's Michael" result by them either being given some other material or it was due to money.
similar to TII, similar to Michael's masters at Cirque, I think originals , raw vocals, acapellas etc including but not limited to Cascio songs are at physical lock and key and not online at a server.
family wasn't given access or information. this might have continued after the concerns as well. Estate didn't want them involved and even when they asked questions they could be given "don't have it", "it's lost", "the dog ate it" etc to brush them off.
so they heard pre-mixes at Teddy's studio.
although many people don't accept it I think releasable, complete songs could be limited. There have been an interview with Branca a year ago in which he said there's only 1-2 album worth of material, Randy Taraborellu saying there's 17-18 songs, Teddy Riley saying Michael recorded partially and one album will be duets, and recent article that says there will be one more unreleased material album.
Although Michael might have hundreds of ideas not many of their vocals might be recorded enough for release. That explains why Cascio songs described as "complete" when let's say compared to just a verse being recorded. It also explains why even they might be poor quality got released and why still Sony is so adamant to stop leaks and might entertain future release of them.
Jacksons wasn't at the musicians listening session. Randy wasn't there and other Jackson's wasn't there as randy uses the word "someone" . As he refers to Taryll as "my nephew", he's not "someone".
This confirms that there was indeed vocal authentication is done and they have given it's Michael results. Randy explains "it's Michael" result by them either being given some other material or it was due to money.
BUMPER SNIPPET
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I don't see any reason why ESTATE/SONY would lie to have deleted the tracks. If ESTATE/SONY lied about this they could lie about many other things. In a professional world, you diplomatically refuse to hand over things, you don't lie when you have nothing to hide.
The relationship shouldn't be the cause of any lie. For example if you and I disagree on things, this won't be a reason to lie to each other. It just does not make sense. And anyway, if anyone lied, where would it stop? Would it be credible and professional?
Am I the only one to see through what trouble they've gone only because they would lie about not having what the Jacksons had been asking for? So they refuse a simple thing to the Jacksons' requests (they prefer lying), yet they go through all kinds of (costly) investigations? By the way, calling Jason to ask him if he was involved isn't any different than asking you at the airport to fill in a form among which there are questions such as "Are you a terrorist?" Who would ever answer "Yes"?
Now, regardless of the same reactions the fans had when they listened to those tracks:
first why would Taryll lie?
second why would fans lie to hear a soundalike?
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Chamife
Proud Member
I posted the accurate lyrics to Burn 2 night a few times before, when we were discussing the song. On MaxJax, but I'm not sure here. Anyway, didn't pay too much attention this time...ooops. Twas late.
And you're not offensive. I don't think anyone can offend me :scratch:
With what I said about the lyrics: They are average. The music is catchy and it's not a bad song. Like I said before, many other artists would we very happy to record it.
It's not that a song always have to have deep and meaningful lyrics and the music always has to have the newest technical state of the art. But it has to have SOMETHING. And with Burn Tonight I can't find that SOMETHING. And from what I know of Michael (having read all sorts of interviews etc.) I believe a song had to have something special, whether it were the lyrics, the melody or the overall feeling it would give you, that was special.
I've no idea what attracted him in this song enough to record it .
Calisto
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ivy said:
ivy said:
Quoting Teddy Riley:
"At the last minute of working on this project, these issues about [Michael's] vocals not being real came into par. The vocal, yes, I feel they are MJ [...] they are very processed. [...] Michael is not hear to voice himself and let you know the truth. I asked the company to bring in everyone: professionals, friends, family, and the people who worked with Michael many years and before me. Everyone said it is Michael except the family, who says it's not, because there's no proof. All I'm gonna say here is that I believe it's MJ. The truth of this -- of it all -- no one knows [but] MJ."
Quoting Taryll Jackson:
"In regards to the statement, I tried calling Howard's cell but couldn't reach him. (I wanted to hear from him directly.) After calling his office, somebody confirmed that the statement did come from Howard. As I said before, there are many inaccuracies and omissions in that statement. For one, I was also in that meeting and that was not the outcome. Saying that, I don't want to go into further details and take away from the attention "Hold My Hand" truly deserves. You will hear my story because this is way too important for my uncle's legacy. The truth will prevail."
Quoting Cory Rooney:
"I have read the statement [in defense of the Cascio tracks] from the MJ Estate, and I have to say that it's just more bullshit! I was in that room, and the majority of the people mentioned did not agree that it was MJ! Some felt it sounded like him, but all agreed that there was nothing there that was consistent with any MJ habits like finger snaps, headphone bleeding, foot stomping or just simple things like his voice asking for another take. Both Dr. Freeze and Teddy Riley sat with Taryll Jackson and myself and stated that they felt what we felt. As for the specialists that were brought in, I don't think anyone from the actual Jackson family got any direct confirmation that made them feel any different than what they have felt all along."
Quoting Teddy Riley:
"Cory is a [liar] and when he came to my session, he was the only one on Taryll's side. The people who were in that room didn't want to argue and go back and forth with Taryll who spoke the whole session. What I said in that meeting was it don't make me no difference whether these songs get [used] or not. It's the Estate's decision. We let Taryll talk, 'cause he was very hostile in the meeting. We let him talk as we nod our heads, 'cause you can't tell an adamant person anything. They came prepared to convince everyone and it didn't work."
Note: "Cory is a [liar]" was in response to an inaccurate tweet that read, "Cory Rooney is saying that when you (Teddy) first heard the vocals, you agreed with him and Taryll that it was not MJ!"
- - -
It looks to me as though Taryll and Cory were at the same listening session as the other musicians. (And so the tracks described by the Estate as "raw" did feature MJ samples.)
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BUMPER SNIPPET
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But they wouldn't make any different procedure if the vocals were fake either.
Again, that would be lying. There is no reason to lie to brush them off. And if they can lie about the tracks being erased, they can lie about anything else.
We don't know that. If SONY/ESTATE already lied about erasing tracks, they could be lying about realisable material. Also, SONY is not necessarily in possession of all what MJ recorded.
This statement also contradicts many outtakes that never made it on any album. In the past I read more than once that Michael would record dozens, if not several dozens of songs before deciding which of the songs would make the cut.
Regardless, how do we know that what's in the letter is the truth or a lie to brush people off? After all, the Estate's letter is vague. We have no idea to what the forensics have listened to and who they are. However we do know that their findings could be as accurate as ...inaccurate.
The reason why they used in the letter "the best" forensics and the "second best" are extremely clear to me. They hoped no one would question or challenge their we-don't-know-what analyses, yet they don't say according to whom they are the best and second best forensics. There is no ranking list to even issue such a statement. Did they hire secret military audio-identification engineers and spies to issue such a claim "best in the nation"?
Or simply they thought they identified MJ's voice. Had there been another crew, with higher dose of personal scepticism, all of sudden they'd all say they can't identify MJ for sure. Even in this very case, we have no technical data nor ratio of accuracy. The statement is purely vague.
They didn't use alt vocals. About the eliminating vibrato, I tried speeding up the vocals myself on the original version and almost got the same result. + If the DJ got the acapella, there is a way to flatten vocals using some sort of effect
Jesta
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You sure? I hear "They keeping you 'round like a Monster" as opposed to the album "They keeping you down like a Monster", and they at least somehow altered the structure of the word "Cam-e-ra".
"Keeping you down like Monster" can be heard in the album version where it sounds like "skipping you down like a Monser".
I can't hear any "Round" like a monster. Where is it?
And the "cam-ra" thing is just speed up so fast, you can't hear the "camERa". I did the same. I also tried removing the "ER" in camera, and it sounded pretty much the same as in the mix.
I can't hear any "Round" like a monster. Where is it?
And the "cam-ra" thing is just speed up so fast, you can't hear the "camERa". I did the same. I also tried removing the "ER" in camera, and it sounded pretty much the same as in the mix.
BUMPER SNIPPET
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If they accelerated the vocals it is possible that some sounds get lost like vowels "e" in camera*, and it's possible that some "d" sound like "r".
For example if you quickly say "get up" or "shut up", the "t" will sound like "d" (as in "down"), "geddup" & "shuddup". If you pronounce it even more quickly your "d" will sound almost like rolled "r": "gerrup", "shurrup" hence down vs roun'
*This is because the stress is on the first syllable cam and the "e" is almost silent even when you pronounce the word without acceleration.
BUMPER SNIPPET
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Can someone help me please.
Jason's from New Jersey, is that right? (Northern part or southern part?) Has he always lived there? Is English his mother tongue / does he speak other languages? Whish city has he been living in?
Is there anyone here on this board from New Jersey?
Jason's from New Jersey, is that right? (Northern part or southern part?) Has he always lived there? Is English his mother tongue / does he speak other languages? Whish city has he been living in?
Is there anyone here on this board from New Jersey?
"Heard he grew up in Queens..."
On a more serious note, here's some information from his no longer existing myspace profile:
Hello, my name is Jason Malachi and Im an aspiring pop artist. I am a fourth generation Italian American. I was born in Silver Spring, Maryland; however, my family is originally from Brooklyn, New York. I graduated from Quince Orchard High School with high honors and had great extra curricular success. Music is my passion and without it, I would lack an identity.
On a more serious note, here's some information from his no longer existing myspace profile:
Hello, my name is Jason Malachi and Im an aspiring pop artist. I am a fourth generation Italian American. I was born in Silver Spring, Maryland; however, my family is originally from Brooklyn, New York. I graduated from Quince Orchard High School with high honors and had great extra curricular success. Music is my passion and without it, I would lack an identity.
I suppose you don't know the relationship between Jackson's and the Estate.
Katherine Jackson tried to remove them, Joe Jackson tried to remove them, some family members said the will was fake and that Branca made the will fraudulently, for months they tried to add one of the 3T as an executor, Latoya wrote on his book and went on TV saying that Michael hated Branca, Katherine Jackson gave similar statement, family tried to do many projects all of which was stopped by Estate - and there's a huge anger there even today, they even accused of him being in someway involved in his death.
This is not a professional relationship with a disagreement. This is a "I hate you, you are a criminal, I'll badmouth you in every chance, you stop what I want to do, I'll get you removed" type of relationship. Read Taryll's tweets, they didn't know that Estate will release a statement and when he tried to learn if it's indeed from the Estate, he couldn't get ahold of Weitzman. Reportedly Estate didn't want them to be involved from the start.
I think it's very possible that Estate might be totally ignoring and not forthcoming towards them.
Note: Do not underestimate human nature and do not generalize it as "professional relationship". For example : Here a lot of people said Eddie must answer their questions but totally omitted how they acted towards him. In reality it's you reap what you sow. For example in my real life when working with the music band, I had been a target of hate of a group and I choose to ignore them. I wouldn't take their calls - get assistants/other people say that I'm not available. I wouldn't answer any of their questions, reply with "I don't know" etc. Was it professional? Probably not but I didn't care. They were a group of people that hated me and threatened me and I ignored them as much as I could and I didn't feel like I must answer their questions or fulfill their requests.
Bumper the reason that you ask is not because you expect a confession, it's because you show due diligence and move the responsibility to the other party. So they don't ask Jason with an expectation of "yes", they ask him so that they can say "we also asked the alleged soundalike and he denied his involvement" and if it turns out that it's Jason singing they can say "he lied to us, he made us believe it wasn't him". Is it clear now?
Yesterday I said Branca is a lawyer and he acted like a lawyer. Try to approach the situation from a legal perspective. You would see that the behavior then makes sense.
furthermore if Taryll was in a state that he wouldn't believe anything that can be said to him as Teddy says, They could have gone with a costly investigation method. Most people will accept objective results. Such as if a woman comes forward and says "you are the father of my baby" and then a DNA test proves it, most people will accept it. They might have gone to rational investigation / tests way to provide that and bring the debate to something more than "he said - he said". You see that in this thread "he said - she said" doesn't bring anything to the table, everyone still thinks the same way, we reject what other is saying and running in circles. so they might have thought "let's get the costly forensic experts" and hope that it would be enough to stop a reasonable eperson's concerns. It's also an insurance policy for the future - from legal perspective.
no one said they are lying but they could be simply mistaken. We also see that "proof" doesn't matter. Even though Randy Jackson acknowledges the forensic experts he doesn't accept their results and come with "they did not hear what I hear" and "they work for money" reasons for rejection.
secondly you again need to reconsider the relationship. Could the months and hundreds thousand of dollars spent by Jacksons to put one of the 3T as an executor be a reason? For example Latoya Jackson wrote on her book that there were a note in Michael's house that said "I hate Branca". We have seen the notes during the trial - there's no hate messages. It's all future plans and motivational notes. And when I asked that to the online team they said scoffed and said ask Latoya to show a copy of the note - and there is not a copy. So why is Latoya lying? (Even in a situation when all the notes are photographed by the LAPD. note: she also said that his room was "littered" with hundreds of notes) . We all saw the photos there's only a handful of notes on his bathroom mirror and on some doors.)
similarly why would Joe Jackson and Brian Oxman and Leonard Rowe in affidavits claim that Michael supported Joe by giving him 50-60K a month but then when asked in an interview Joe would say Michael wasn't supporting him. Why would they lie?
Why would HTWF spent a year fighting Estate and not mention Michael's alleged approval but then produce a letter from Brian Oxman dated in 2011 saying Michael gave permission to them in 2005. Wouldn't that be the first thing you say when people accuse you of not being authorized? Why do they lie and create documents against the Estate?
Unfortunately Jackson's do not always act by considering what is in the best interest of Michael. There have been example after example that they put their own interests first.
Teddy says "my session" so it seems like there could be multiple sessions. Still it doesn't matter from forensic experts perspective.
that's not the point. Some argue that because the hacked server didn't have any raw acapellas, they don't exist. The point of it such originals, masters, raw vocals etc can be under lock and key in a physical location and not uploaded to a server. This is not limited to Cascio songs and has nothing to do with authenticity. All I'm saying is that we can't come to conclusions based on what is found or not found on one server.
I wrote that some people reject this but I don't understand what more people need. Branca on record said 1-2 more full new material albums. People has been asking questions to Joe Vogel and he's been confirming some songs aren't recorded or isn't in a stage to be released. There's been another recent mention of the duets album. It seems possible.
Plus I didn't say Estate / Sony is lying to everyone, I said they might not be forthcoming to Jacksons. We only heard that erased and so on. from Taryll. It doesn't fit with what we know, it's not mentioned at Estate statement, and even Teddy's tweets say different things.
and no one is denying that, the point is they are probably not complete. Look even hollywood tonight has a bridge missing. So he could have recorded a thousand songs but they could be one verse or a chorus and so on. There might not be enough vocals to release them on their own. In posthumous releases this is handled with duets. Teddy said this and there have been a recent article that said duets idea is scrapped.
We'll wait and see. I didn't say it as a definitive thing but if you add 1 + 1 , it makes sense. If we are to ask "why they are so adamant on these Cascio songs?" question to ourselves and if the possible answer is "because perhaps they don't have that many releasable material", it makes sense.
you can always challenge them in court.
Joking aside generally it would be based on their work background. Not Estate statement but later inside rumors for example labelled these experts as "worked for FBI". So if an expert is the choice for USA government to identify Bin Laden's voice for example, that would probably make him "best in nation", again work experience would be the thing to differentiate any experts. Remember Murray trial and how they spent sometimes an hour going over the experts credentials, education, work history, CV? I'm sure there's no ranking list for "best anesthesiologist in USA" but after hearing Dr. Shafer's credentials can anyone deny that he's one of the best in the nation and perhaps even in the world?
Jason has nothing to do with New Jersey or even New York. He's born raised and still lives in Maryland.
BUMPER SNIPPET
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OK, I see your point. But first, I don't know if the Jacksons act as one body, second, despite all these, there is no reason to lie from the Estate's or SONY's part to them. A firm "no" from their part would be sufficient rather than even seem to engage in any kind of justification or lie.
Ignoring them is one thing, lying to them is completely another thing and frankly unnecassary.
You always seem to think that people either overestimate things or underestimate things. When we are talking about SONY company or the Estate, supposedly experienced businessmen. It is absolutely not underestimating when talking about lies and business. What experienced businessman would lie? Either you ignore people or you issue a clear (diplomatic or not) "we regret to inform you that we are unable to consider your request" phrase rather than "we erased the data" or "the computer broke down" or "the hard disk couldn't be saved". I mean, those lies can't be taken seriously by anyone, especially if you want to brush people off.
I think you missed my point here. You assmued that I didn't know why they simply asked Jason was it him or not. I know very well that his "yes" could backfire to him if ever it appears that he lied. But hey, when Clinton said he never had a sexual relationship, he lied, didn't he. He didn't say yes I had a sexual relationship. Further on when it was shown that he as a matter of fact did have a sexual intercourse, he replied to it "it depends how you define a sexual relationship".
So, two points, first Jason, despite knowing the risks could lie anyway, and probably later on defend himself by some other stuff he knows but doesn't reveal.
Second, and that was my point that you seem to have missed, why on Earth would Estate or SONY prefer to go trhough costly investigations rather than simply saying "yes" or "no" to the Jacksons' request?
Well yes, Branca opted to do it, but those were not the only options.
First of all, he could have provided the copies to the Jacksons' request. What's the big deal?
Second, they could simply say "no" instead of lying.
Third they could simply ignore the Jacksons' request.
Fourth, when you know that your vocals are 100% Michael's, you don't even need to do any kind of investigation, do you?
If you tell me I am not the author of my book, Pentum is. Then fine, think it's Pentum. Why would I need to investigate something I know 100%? It would be up to you to investigate, not up to me.
So, in this case, the Jacksons, and us the doubters are to investigate, not Branca or anyone else. A part of our investigation is to ask Branca, SONY, about the tracks. And also a part of our investigation is to get further info about Estyate's/SONY's investigation.
Who did they act for? Themselves? By lying, investigating and then hiding the details? Or, us the fans who are requesting more transparency, more details and more communication? None of them seem to cooperate with the fans.
We always have to raise the fuss before they listen to us. An example, when the controversy about the tracks broke out, they decided to maintain them on the album depsite fans' anger, yet they said in the report that we were the ones who will judge! We did judge! We did tear apart! But did they listen? No. So, their statement that the fans will be the judges was nothing else but a bad joke.
Another example, the Crique du Soleil. They knew about the controversy, yet they were about to include the controversial tracks. I mean, why would they do that? Luckily this time they listened to the fans, but what I don't get is why was it so difficult to hold back those tracks before they could provide with solid proofs they're Michael's? They're indeed playing the gods of music ignoring the effects on MJ's fans. I can't see anything else but rush for cashing in in this whole story. Branca without Michael is just helpless and hopeless.
As I said earlier. Without even listening to the tracks. When you step back and take only the facts:
a) Fan community familiar with MJ's voice
b) MJ's songs
c) Cascio songs
d) Soundalikes
(a) hear (b) = usual sound, (it's MJ, it is no one else)
(a) hear (c) = unusual/unexcusable sound for ones (is it MJ?), usual/excusable for others (MJ, but...)
(a) hear (d) = unusual sound (is it MJ?, it is for some, it is not for others)
From this observation alone, without listening to the tracks. What are the chances that MJ fools the fans into hearing a soundalike compared to a soundalike abilities to fool people into thinking that they hear MJ?
Ok, any valuable thing would be locked. Understandable.
oke:Well, I guess as far as releasable material is concerned we can only sit and wait. Let's not forget however that there are a huge number of videos that are unreleased such as concerts "Triumph", "Victory", "Bad", "History", "Captain EO" in 3D, etc.
Nobody seems to contradict Taryll's statement about telling him that everything was destroyed. Again why would he make up something like "they told me they erased them" or "the computer broke down", etc. Why would you judge Taryll without knowing him, yet opt to believe the estate not being transparent with us fans who included the songs despite fans' angry reaction after streaming of Breaking News. If you believe ones, you can believe others. If you don't trust ones, then don't trust others either.
Well, yes. But I was referring to the things I read in the 80s actually. That tehre were dozens of fully recorded songs that never made it on the albums. It is true that in the meantime some of them leaked like Niteline, Trouble, etc. But still, there must be some songs that have been recorded afterwards, for example during Invincible sessions. And I am just curious if Michael recorded full songs with Will I Am or if it was simply in process of creation.
you can always challenge them in court.
Remember Murray trial and how they spent sometimes an hour going over the experts credentials, education, work history, CV? I'm sure there's no list for "best anesthesiologist in USA" but after hearing Dr. Shafer's credentials can anyone deny that he's one of the best in the nation?
I won't challenge anyone in court, because there is no proof. It would be a waste of time and money. I already stated it, the absence of proof does not mean that the case is either over or that the truth prevailed.
Regarding the expression "one of the best", well it's his job, I hope people are the best in their field. But how can anyone be sure that this or that person is one of the best in his field? You must work in the same field in order to claim such a thing.
By the way, saying "one of the best" doesn't mean "the best" and "the second best". There are clearly huge nuances and especially a purpose in choosing such terms.
Ok, thanks for the info.
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okay again I know you hate it but you need to approach to this from legal perspective and due diligence doctrine.
"I'm sure the vocals are 100% Michael" and therefore I won't do any investigation is not an option. Whenever a concern is raised they need to do everything that is reasonably and humanly possible to resolve that concern.
Simple question. Forget this example, forget everything we know.
We are running a company. I came to you and said Bumper there's been concerns about the authenticity do anything you can to investigate this. What comes to your mind? Asking people that know the voice? Hiring people that can do authentications? Right. This is no brainier. That's a legal due diligence. It's as simple as that.
again see above. due diligence, social responsibility, business ethics. For example when there's complaints companies do not say "prove it", they investigate the complaints and come up with solutions if needed. This is no different. They were told a concern, they did their investigation and gave a statement back. They showed their due diligence and social responsibility. Now if there's any dissatisfaction or any further complaints the ball is in the doubters corner.
well let's not forget that not all fans agree. You have people on this thread that likes the songs, you have fans on other threads that doesn't mind Cascio songs on other albums. So who is this "we"? As I said before about a MJJC position, please remember your position doesn't represent me and my position doesn't represent you. So there's no "we" and it's not really fair to take one sides position and impose it on to other.
Not quite. People's track record and credibility speaks for themselves. I edited this to the previous post but you didn't see it let me post it here again.
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secondly you again need to reconsider the relationship. Could the months and hundreds thousand of dollars spent by Jacksons to put one of the 3T as an executor be a reason? For example Latoya Jackson wrote on her book that there were a note in Michael's house that said "I hate Branca". We have seen the notes during the trial - there's no hate messages. It's all future plans and motivational notes. And when I asked that to the online team they said scoffed and said ask Latoya to show a copy of the note - and there is not a copy. So why is Latoya lying? (Even in a situation when all the notes are photographed by the LAPD. note: she also said that his room was "littered" with hundreds of notes) . We all saw the photos there's only a handful of notes on his bathroom mirror and on some doors.)
similarly why would Joe Jackson and Brian Oxman and Leonard Rowe in affidavits claim that Michael supported Joe by giving him 50-60K a month but then when asked in an interview Joe would say Michael wasn't supporting him. Why would they lie?
Why would HTWF spent a year fighting Estate and not mention Michael's alleged approval but then produce a letter from Brian Oxman dated in 2011 saying Michael gave permission to them in 2005. Wouldn't that be the first thing you say when people accuse you of not being authorized? Why do they lie and create documents against the Estate?
Unfortunately Jackson's do not always act by considering what is in the best interest of Michael. There have been example after example that they put their own interests first.
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So I'm sorry to say but there have been examples of Jackson's lying, there have been examples of them to make stuff up to be against the Estate, there have been examples of them to support people against the Estate, there have been examples of putting Jackson's first and not necessarily caring for Michael. We can't deny it.
Taryll's and other T's concerns can be genuine but if in the future it turns out the vocals to be Michael and Jacksons know it for a fact but yet did what they did, it wouldn't surprise me even a little bit. This is not hating them, this is just a result of their track record and their previous actions.
I can opt to believe Cascios who have been loyal to Michael for 25 years and stood with him through two allegations over Cory Rooney who spoke against Michael in 2001 in Sony Events.
I can question Jacksons motives and honesty based on past/current events but not have similar concerns about MJ Estate as they gave me no reason to doubt them.
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
I would say yes to that only if a huge number of people (fans) raise the concern or if professionals raise the very same concern. If a random guy or a group of people talking nonsense raise that concern, I wouldn't move the slightest finger. But, the point is, they carried out that investigation because someone who apparently is talking nonsense raise dthe concern. In that case anyone would carry out investigation for the slightest concern emanating from any random guy or group of people.
My first question would be "who raises the concern"?
Second, if I am in charge of the project and I know 100% that what I possess is 100% genuine, I wouldn't be concerned about it.
Third, if however we both decide to carry out the investigation in order to reassure the public, then I would certainly provide public with proof in order to reassure them rather than just "have my word".
I don't know how you can't seem to see it. Before the investigation there were some concerns, Fine. Now they did the investigation for whom? For those who raised the concern? If yes, then why they don't provide them with more proof? If not, then to me it means they did it for themselves and nobody else, which means they themselves were not sure about the authenticity of their own product.
After the investigation the fans haven't been any more reassured. The fans still after their report haven't seen a single proof. All we have is their word. But before the investigation, all we had had was nothing more than just their word too. So what did this investigation change for the fans? Nothing at all. This again indicates that their concern was not us the fans on the one hand, and on the other, that they were not so sure about their products either. Not issuing any detail doesn't contribute to their reassuring words in the report, nor does it change anything. To the fans it is as if they didn't actually do anything at all to reassure them.
Well there was a "we" before the Cascio tracks. MJ's fans. Now there are two "we"s the believers and teh doubters. All doubters ask is to bring back what they have split up, the one "we" -MJ's fans.
And how about SONY vs Michael track record then?
vs
Michael & his family track record in 2005 for example during the trial.
You say, that we sholodn't mix up Frank and Eddie only because they have the same family name, yet you seem not to trust people only because of their family name. So, as I said, they must be given as much benefit of doubt as anyone else who don't seem to have any agenda to lie.
Further on, some fans hear the same as 3Ts. Are we going to be accused of bad action and associated to the "greedy" Jacksons because we heard the same if the vocals are proven to be Michael's?
And please don't tell me teh idea was introduced. Many of us had nothing to do or hadn't followed neither the tweeter, nor Roger Friedman, nor anyone else. Many of us were expecting to hear Michael on a new album, and we miserably have failed to hear him on any of those Cascio tracks. And the Estate doesn't do much to help us. From SONY, I am not surprised.
WhoIsIt89
Proud Member
Pretty sure in that dance mix of Monster, one of the ending lines as opposed to "Why you hauntin' me" says "Why you doggin' me".
the concern is raised by the Jacksons. I still feel that you don't understand it. Car manufacturers do crash tests, they do tests when some parts fail. they do not publish the results. They just mention the outcome. One example I kept giving was "4 out of 5 dentists" statement, nothing is public about the details of that survey but yet it's done.
Jacksons and they have been provided with the results.
that a never ending argument. how about michael not seeing his family for 4 years after trial and so on. it's not an exact science. All I'm saying not everyone will be equal like you said. There's no requirement that says we need to believe everyone. Each one of us will look to the past and determine credibility based on track record. I wrote my reasoning. If you have a different one that's yours.
and how do you know whether they have an agenda or not? Like I said Katherine hired lawyers and spent months and hundreds of thousands of dollars to place one of the 3T as an executor. How is that for resentment? When Michael was alive there have been rumors that he had strained relationships with 3T and Tito because he dropped them from his label / didn't support their second album and as he didn't attend TJ's wedding. Friedman labelled this as a jealousy towards Michael's closeness to Cascios. So depending on how you look , agenda could look different to different people.
I'll post a separate post about Jacksons versus Estate and some things happening so you'll understand some things better.
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
This is a different case! It can't be compared for the simple reason that the crash tests must abide by the standards of safety. The results are always submitted to the independent safety department, the car company never keeps the crash tests only for themselves. By the way, I have impression that the public could more easily get the info about car crash tests, than what was analysed by the audio forensics.
So the Estates provides the Jacksons with the costly results, but avoids to invite them to a free of charge listening session of what they request? Something is rotten in the state of Denmark here.
Well, you advocate for objectivity in reasoning, so I am a bit surprised to see among all seemingly loigical reasoning a choice to believe ones and doubts other based simply on people's track record, despite the fact that 3Ts don't have any. At the same tim you yourself used the argument of not mixing up people because they come from the same family, for example when it came to the Cascios. Let's be fair and do the same with the 3Ts.
Yet, Michael trusted Katherine enough to take care of the most precious he had - his children.
We don't know the relationship between 3T and Michael, and we don't know actually more with the Cascios. We don't have Michael's version at all. We have only hersays. It's too easy now that MJ is dead.
And please, Roger Friedman is just an opportunist, I am sick of him.
Have you ever tried to imagine how would it be if you were judged by people who don't know the relationship between you and your family, only the top of the iceberg.
No matter what we say, the Cascios were there for Michael when he was alive, fine. But have they ever had the chance to argue about anything? You know, a real family is when you can argue with them. If you've never argued with your family, your boyfriend or your friends, then something is really wrong.
Dorian
Smooth Criminal
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