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Michael - The Great Album Debate

StellaJackson said:
I didn't insult it. I simply said it was irrelevant if you hadn't heard the demos, which you haven't. It was not an insult. It was a fact. You are commenting on songs that you haven't even heard, hence it is irrelevant. I did not insult you. Of course you had to insult me though. Twice now. Act like a moderator and grow up.
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I thought that unless someone reports someone any moderator here is just debating like any other person.
 
StellaJackson said:
I'll refer you to the TPI's extensive comparison clips which show the following:

Jason's snorts/accent/vibrato/pronounication/timbre/husk all present in the Cascio tracks.
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Is that all ?

Any creditable proof ?

Update: So now your saying the snort is Jason's because ?

These were just GUIDE vocals Michael could have done it what are you gonna compare snorts now ?
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Is that all ?

Any creditable proof ?
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It's a lot more proof than there is that it's Michael. Which is none. At least TPI took the time to meticulously point out all the matches between the Cascio vocalist and Jason, rather than just saying it sounds like Michael. Please show me proof that they are guide vocals and then find a previous MJ demo or guide vocal where he does the same sounding snorts as Jason. You can't.
 
Jesta said:
Now Ivy, you are right. I myself am guilty of saying that Malachi sounded more convincing on ONE of those tracks than the Cascio vocalist. That just tells me I have to learn Malachi's voice more. But please answer this: you say the flow of the Cascio vocalist doesn't match Malachi. Say Malachi isn't trying to imitate Michael's technique/style in his own songs, yet in the Cascio tracks he (hypothetically) would try his best to copy it because he's passing himself off as Michael. Is that scenario somewhat believable?
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technique isn't imitated, it's learned. For example one of the first things that you learn from vocal coaches etc is proper breathing. Jason simply doesn't have the same technique in that regard and there's no sense that he would actually be better but intentionally use an inferior technique on his own songs.

I don't know how to explain this. You can get a famous painting and copy it to look the same- on the outside. But the brush techniques, use of it, stroke style etc. is unique to the person and cannot be imitated that easily.

Jason cannot be that good and that bad simultaneously.
 
StellaJackson said:
It's a lot more proof than there is that it's Michael. Which is none. At least TPI took the time to meticulously point out all the matches between the Cascio vocalist and Jason, rather than just saying it sounds like Michael.
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I added more to that post I guess you replied before you read it, but so now are we gonna compare snorts now ?
 
StellaJackson said:
I didn't insult it. I simply said it was irrelevant if you hadn't heard the demos, which you haven't. It was not an insult. It was a fact. You are commenting on songs that you haven't even heard, hence it is irrelevant. I did not insult you. Of course you had to insult me though. Twice now. Act like a moderator and grow up. You should lead by example.
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ehehehe at the fact comment. You have no idea about what I heard or didn't hear and you have no idea about if I write everything or not. so keep believing that I didn't hear the demos and it's a fact and I'll laugh long and good to your "facts" when you know absolutely nothing.

I'm not acting like a moderator here, I said it over and over again.. and believe me you wouldn't want me to act like a moderator here. If I did I would have long banned you for disrespect from this thread. So perhaps reconsider what you are asking for.
 
A lot of Jason's own songs are convincing enough to fool people who are casual fans (there are still people who think Let Me Let Go is Michael) but there are major give aways that's it's not Michael. When you add in a bunch of MJ pasted ad libs, have Jason deliberately trying to BE Michael as opposed to just sounding LIKE him, throw in the production talents of Teddy Riley/Tricky Stewart, slap them on an MJ album, and have songs that are designed to sound like MJ songs in the first place then you are going to fool a lot of people. But it is still obvious to a great many hard core fans that it is Jason singing.
 
ivy said:
technique isn't imitated, it's learned. For example one of the first things that you learn from vocal coaches etc is proper breathing. Jason simply doesn't have the same technique in that regard and there's no sense that he would actually be better but intentionally use an inferior technique on his own songs.

I don't know how to explain this. You can get a famous painting and copy it to look the same- on the outside. But the brush techniques, use of it, stroke style etc. is unique to the person and cannot be imitated that easily.

Jason cannot be that good and that bad simultaneously.
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But taking into account the multiple takes, arduous cut-and-paste jobs within the songs and the empty silence between vocals (as seen in the Breaking News acapella) wouldn't a style/flow similar to Michael be achieved, even with vocals by an artist of an inferior technique?
 
ivy said:
ehehehe at the fact comment. You have no idea about what I heard or didn't hear and you have no idea about if I write everything or not. so keep believing that I didn't hear the demos and it's a fact and I'll laugh long and good to your "facts" when you know absolutely nothing.

I'm not acting like a moderator here, I said it over and over again.. and believe me you wouldn't want me to act like a moderator here. If I did I would have long banned you for disrespect from this thread. So perhaps reconsider what you are asking for.
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First of all I haven't done anything that deserves a banning. You don't have to be in moderator mode in every post but the fact that you are one means that you shouldn't insult people. You should lead by example. And I know you haven't heard that stuff because you stated it yourself.
 
Jesta said:
But taking into account the multiple takes, arduous cut-and-paste jobs within the songs and the empty silence between vocals (as seen in the Breaking News acapella) wouldn't a style/flow similar to Michael be achieved, even with vocals by an artist of an inferior technique?
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ask your friend Stella how many tracks and copy pastes that the "obviously Malachi" Water song has
 
Ivy, Fall in Love is perhaps the most damning piece in all of this. I would recommend that you listen to it. I would be fascinated to hear your opinion on it.

ivy said:
ask your friend Stella how many tracks and copy pastes that the "obviously Malachi" Water song has
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... OK, Stella? Could you give me an answer to that?
 
Jesta said:
Ivy, Fall in Love is perhaps the most damning piece in all of this. I would recommend that you listen to it. I would be fascinated to hear your opinion on it.



... OK, Stella? Could you give me an answer to that?
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You haven't heard it? I thought you had?

Anyway, it has numerous breaths and hiccups pasted in.
 
StellaJackson said:
You haven't heard it? I thought you had?
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I have, I meant about how copy-paste vocals and empty silences could imitate a flow/style similar to Michael.

The "Dan" part of Dangerous always sounded pasted to me, didn't fit in with the rest of the word.
 
StellaJackson said:
First of all I haven't done anything that deserves a banning. You don't have to be in moderator mode in every post but the fact that you are one means that you shouldn't insult people. You should lead by example. And I know you haven't heard that stuff because you stated it yourself.
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I'll make this clear: If you insult me, I will insult you back. Me being a moderator doesn't give you a free pass to insult me or be disrespectful to my opinion and you expect I shouldn't reply back to you. Heck I would even leave moderator position to reply back to you. I will not be silent and tolerate to be disrespected. Are we clear?
 
ivy said:
Let's talk about what we hear...

Few days ago Stella had posted a Malachi song saying how convincing it would be with MJ adlibs. People commented on it either saying it sounded better and like Michael or said it sounded nothing like Michael.

I set to listen to it using a technique I was told. (side bar: when the lead vocalist of the band I worked for started to take vocal lessons I heard about technique a lot and the vocal coach had told me to listen to songs in an absolute silent environment with no distractions with no lights with my eyes closed so you focus on what you hear and you listen to the delivery - not words or meaning just the style)
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The question is not if Jason can fool us to hear Michael, because he already proved in the past that he could do it.
The question is can Michael fool us to hear Jason instead of Michael? That's all what's it about with those songs anyway.

ivy said:
While I was listening to the song I laughed. Still Jason was struggling and didn't have a flow, it was forced. Still he had a different breathing pattern/ technique, had troubles with high notes , falsetto.

In short Jason might sound like Michael to some but he certainly doesn't have Michael's technique and delivery style. It makes sense because that's is learned and not copied. To me personally Jason's technique and delivery isn't a match to Cascio songs at all. I feel people micro focused on certain words and vibrato on end of lines and cannot see the bigger picture.

I wrote this before and I'll write this again. It might not be Michael but I'm also having hard time believing it's Malachi. That's one of the reasons that makes me take doubters seriously sometimes..

ps: and sorry to burst some of you's bubble that believers are all logic or believing to statements. There's a hearing factor as well.
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See above, + snorts

ivy said:
and the album sold 2.5 Million. This is the official number given by MJ Estate.

2,500,000 > 7,500

Sony et al. might not consider doubters significant, sorry but it might be a reality.
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Hardcore fans have bought the album for the remaining 7 songs. Also, if there were no controversy, Michael could have sold more copies.

ivy said:
I heard Water, very recently I heard Burn 2 nite. I think Fall in love might be the only one that I didn't hear. and you are irrelevant.
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Fall in love is the worst. You'll see it for yourself.

ivy said:
technique isn't imitated, it's learned. For example one of the first things that you learn from vocal coaches etc is proper breathing. Jason simply doesn't have the same technique in that regard and there's no sense that he would actually be better but intentionally use an inferior technique on his own songs.

I don't know how to explain this. You can get a famous painting and copy it to look the same- on the outside. But the brush techniques, use of it, stroke style etc. is unique to the person and cannot be imitated that easily.

Jason cannot be that good and that bad simultaneously.
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You can imitate and at the same time learn. Michael said multiple times: "observe the best, dissecate, learn, and be better". Someone who has talent can exceed the master. Now, the Cascio tracks are all but exceeding the master. Hence some snorts or struggling weak voice.

ivy said:
ehehehe at the fact comment. You have no idea about what I heard or didn't hear and you have no idea about if I write everything or not. so keep believing that I didn't hear the demos and it's a fact and I'll laugh long and good to your "facts" when you know absolutely nothing.
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I think no one really knows what others know. So what's the idea? Hiding what we know and act as if we knew better than others?

ivy said:
I'm not acting like a moderator here, I said it over and over again.. and believe me you wouldn't want me to act like a moderator here. If I did I would have long banned you for disrespect from this thread. So perhaps reconsider what you are asking for.
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No offense, but then I think you'd have to ban the whole community coming to this thread including yourself.
 
Jesta said:
I have, I meant about how copy-paste vocals and empty silences could imitate a flow/style similar to Michael.
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Well the Cascio tracks lack the style of Michael anyway, but if you paste breaths and adlibs like "dah", "uh" etc in between line after line then it is definately going to make them sound better than Jason's own stuff because he's never done that in his own songs. The very fact thay they have had to be pasted in in order to make the lines flow better is a dead give away in the first place.
 
ivy said:
I'll make this clear: If you insult me, I will insult you back. Me being a moderator doesn't give you a free pass to insult me or be disrespectful to my opinion and you expect I shouldn't reply back to you. Heck I would even leave moderator position to reply back to you. I will not be silent and tolerate to be disrespected. Are we clear?
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And being a moderator doesn't give you a reason to insult others. If you think I insulted you, which I certainly didn't intend to, then fine, but it doesn't mean you should insult people back.
 
I better leave this thread before I explode. God, this causes SO much anger and frustration.
 
StellaJackson said:
And being a moderator doesn't give you a reason to insult others. If you think I insulted you, which I certainly didn't intend to, then fine, but it doesn't mean you should insult people back.
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I'm not hiding behind being a moderator to "insult" anyone. As I said a million times and you still fail to comprehend I'm here as a member. And I'm fed up with some people's (you) constant disrespect towards people. If I'm insulting anyone it's because as a member I feel insulted. So look to the man in the mirror and make a change, you'll see that the behavior coming towards you will also change.

and I'm done with this topic.
 
Jesta said:
Having a joke or a dirty limerick helps.

...!!!!! LET'S BRING BACK SEXY TIME!!!
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There was a young man named Malachi
To sound like Michael, he did really try
But his snorts gave him away
Proved the songs were fake and gay
And now he's disappeared into the sky
 
ivy said:
I'm not hiding behind being a moderator to "insult" anyone. As I said a million times and you still fail to comprehend I'm here as a member. And I'm fed up with some people's (you) constant disrespect towards people. If I'm insulting anyone it's because as a member I feel insulted. So look to the man in the mirror and make a change, you'll see that the behavior coming towards you will also change.

and I'm done with this topic.
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Never said you were hiding. Just said as a moderator you should know better. If you want to keep this up we can talk about disability discrimination.
 
OK, this thread has become WAY too negative. We NEED to reinstate some sexy off-topic time to reduce tensions. While I do wish certain people would leave this thread, at this rate everyone will be alienated.

Bumper, care to start us off?
 
If I can share my opinion on this, firstly, Ivy got called out by saying her opinion was irrelevant. Infact, everyone's opinion is good so calling other people's opinions irrelevant is infact an insult.

Also, having to believe (and not bringing into account that I definately hear MJ) that Teddy Riley and all his other producers and MJ's friends knew about the fake tracks and let Jason sing on them to bring out fake tracks? Say what? Is this a conspiracy or not?
 
Ok I am ready for the debate, here's my avatar:

bg07.jpg
 
IvoDT said:
If I can share my opinion on this, firstly, Ivy got called out by saying her opinion was irrelevant. Infact, everyone's opinion is good so calling other people's opinions irrelevant is infact an insult.

Also, having to believe (and not bringing into accoutn that I definately hear MJ) that Teddy Riley and all his other producers and MJ's friends knew about the fake tracks and let Jason sing on them to bring out fake tracks? Say what? Is this a conspiracy or not?
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Teddy Riley and the other producers were not involved. No one has ever said they were. The actual vocals were recorded by Eddie Cascio and the lead singer, while James Porte may or may not have been there. None of the people like Riley, Estate etc, were actually witness to the recording or involved in any alleged fraud.
 
IvoDT said:
If I can share my opinion on this, firstly, Ivy got called out by saying her opinion was irrelevant. Infact, everyone's opinion is good so calling other people's opinions irrelevant is infact an insult.

Also, having to believe (and not bringing into account that I definately hear MJ) that Teddy Riley and all his other producers and MJ's friends knew about the fake tracks and let Jason sing on them to bring out fake tracks? Say what? Is this a conspiracy or not?
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Ivo, there's a difference when you debate and when you focus on people's opinions, and when you turn against a person.

If you attack my opinion, then fine, it's a debate. If someone says to me that my opinion is irrelevant and explains why, then I am of course fine with it. I don't feel personally attacked.

But if you say against a person "you are irrelevant", what has that to do with any kind of opinion? Sorry, but I don't share your view here.
 
Jesta said:
OK, this thread has become WAY too negative. We NEED to reinstate some sexy off-topic time to reduce tensions. While I do wish certain people would leave this thread, at this rate everyone will be alienated.

Bumper, care to start us off?
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I already done give you a funny rhyme!
 
Dammit, Bumper!!! Well if we are going to war in this debate, then I'm at least bringing in reinforcements:

theydontcare.png


StellaJackson said:
I already done give you a funny rhyme!
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Yes, but Malachi isn't sexy to the people on this board... A rhyme about gold pants would've been more effective ;)
 
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