Michael - The Great Album Debate

He recorded multiple takes of a dozen songs just for fun? Right. You simply don't understand or aren't aware of the way these songs were put together. They were recorded professionally, in a good studio setup on high quality equipment. Neither the Cascio's nor anyone else have stated that Michael was recording them just for fun. The songs were sold as complete. And if they sound so bad due to the recording environment then explain why WBSS 08 sounds fine. And this whole thing about over produced vocals is nonsense. There is a little melodyne on there. That's all.

I'm interested in to know
- on what credentials/ qualifications/ education / background are you classifying Eddie Cascio as " professional" recorder
- the list of the equipment / specifications you used to come to the conclusion of "good studio" and "high quality equipment"
- direct quote saying the songs "complete"
- raw vocals that you use to determine "little melodyne"

Taste is subjective.

Assessment of quality is not.

actually quality is subjective as well.

For a second I'll quote wikipedia.

Quality in business, engineering and manufacturing has a pragmatic interpretation as the non-inferiority or superiority of something; it is also defined as fitness for purpose. Quality is a perceptual, conditional and somewhat subjective attribute and may be understood differently by different people.

as a person with business background I can tell you that each individual determines quality based on their expectations - therefore it's subjective and based on perception.

for example for some people Walmart could be selling inferior products and for some other people they could be perfect products.

There are objective criteria people use to grade a product.

No. everyone's criteria is based on their expectations and perceptions.The subjective nature of quality can be seen by asking "what is the best / worst xyz (for example what is the highest quality car)?" question. You'll see that the answers differ. If it was objective like you claimed we should have get the same answer from everyone but we don't.


For instance, I love the Nike t-shirt I'm wearing. But, I can't call it a better piece of clothing than an Alexander McQueen dress. My Nike t-shirt is not as well made. The craftsmanship is note here. One can't compare a machine made mass produced T-shirt to a tailored made maticoulously designed dress.

correct that these two cannot be compared but it's only because they are apples and oranges. You need to consider "fitness for purpose" the Wikipedia definition mentioned. For example if the criteria is "keeping dry when running" most probably a Nike sportwear will be rated as a better quality than an Alexander McQueen dress.

Objectively speaking, it's quite hard to say the Cascio tracks are well made and of high quality. How can we called guide vocals that are so weak and need to be augmented by others, mixed with previous recordings, proceeded and blended to be of high quality? Calling the Cascio tracks well made is similar to calling the New York Post literary enlightening.

and the answer to this depends on again your expectations. For an unfinished, posthumous release they could be "high quality". We'll see the answer to this in the upcoming years and releases.
 
Wait was Michael living with the Cascio's in November 2007 ?

He left in early November. He would have taken the complete vocals that were recorded there with him. So the Thriller 25 booklet, which states that the remix was produced in November is entirely correct.
 
He left in early November. He would have taken the complete vocals that were recorded there with him. So the Thriller 25 booklet, which states that the remix was produced in November is entirely correct.
Isn't early 2007 from January to June ?

Michael stayed at the Cascio home for 4 months according to Frank Cascio so even if MJ went to live with the Cascio's in June 07 4 months later would be October.

And Jesse Jackson's birthday is October 8th and Michael attended which was in California I was wrong it was NOT Vegas where Jesse celebrated his birthday.
 
Isn't early 2007 from January to June ?

Michael stayed at the Cascio home for 4 months according to Frank Cascio so even if MJ went to live with the Cascio's in June 07 4 months later would be October.

And Jesse Jackson's birthday is October 8th and Michael attended which was in California I was wrong it was NOT Vegas where Jesse celebrated his birthday.

Wrong. I said early November. Where did early 07 come from? Jesse Jacksons birthday was November NOT October. As has been stated, Michael did not stay there for 4 months. It was 9 weeks. He arrived in mid August and left early November. His stay wasn't even continuous. He spent time in New York in September. I demonstrated all this months ago.
 
Wrong. I said early November. Where did early 07 come from? Jesse Jacksons birthday was November NOT October. As has been stated, Michael did not stay there for 4 months. It was 9 weeks. He arrived in mid August and left early November. His stay wasn't even continuous. He spent time in New York in September. I demonstrated all this months ago.
Jesse Jackson's birthday October 8th, 1941

Who said 9 weeks ?

Was that person there with Michael ?

Frank and the people that say it was 4 months were.
 
Jesse Jackson's birthday October 8th, 1941

Who said 9 weeks ?

Was that person there with Michael ?

Frank and the people that say it was 4 months were.

http://www.life.com/celebrity-pictu...on-attends-jesse-jacksons-65th-birthday-party

The party was held on November 8th. There are countless sources showing that. The actual date of his birthday wasn't the same day as his party. The only person who has said 4 months is Frank Cascio. It's called embellishment. Michael arroved mid August and left first week of early November, minus the time he was away in New York = apprx 9 weeks. It sure as hell wasn't four months.
 
http://www.life.com/celebrity-pictu...on-attends-jesse-jacksons-65th-birthday-party

The party was held on November 8th. There are countless sources showing that. The actual date of his birthday wasn't the same day as his party. The only person who has said 4 months is Frank Cascio. It's called embellishment. Michael arroved mid August and left first week of early November, minus the time he was away in New York = apprx 9 weeks. It sure as hell wasn't four months.
Okay I guess +1 for you on the party I thought it was held the same day as his birthdate but where are you hearing 9 weeks ? And he could have lived in NJ and go to NY on a daily basis it's right there like a 30-40 minute drive.
 
kreen;3572322 said:
Man, you hear MJ on all of those songs, and « don’t hear MJ » on the Cascio tracks, because you know they’re from the Cascios. Your knowledge of what those songs are, who they’re from, etc., influences what you hear. Our senses are influenced by what we think, especially if we have strongly-held beliefs and emotions.

I can assure you, because it’s human nature and you are human, that in an alternate universe, if KYHU had been presented by mistake on “Michael” as being a self-written MJ composition that he recorded, say, in 2009 in Las Vegas, you’d say you recognize MJ on the song, but don’t on “Beautiful Girl”, if THAT one was presented to you as being from the Cascios.
Wow, pure nonsense. "Utter bullshit".
 
http://soundcloud.com/billyjeanplxiv/hold-my-trippin-news



anyways, the controvesial vocals arent used here.

Thanks for the comical note (no offense)

No idea what you did, but I know every time Hold my Hand comes through, I can totally see what attracted Michael to this song. The beautiful melody comes shining through even better.

You all probably heard this before, but for those of you who didn't: some say this could be the inspiration:

[youtube]JvNQLJ1_HQ0[/youtube]
 
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Because the leaked one doesn't have it, it doesn't mean it's not on the other versions because it's leaked so how do we know it wasn't removed before the leak went out by who ever got it uploaded to the internet ?

I have two versions of All I Need. Theres no porte. However, Burn Tonight, Black Widow, Soilder Boy and Ready2win are leaked and they have porte vocals? Give me a few hous and ill post his vocal parts the the best of my distunguishing ability. The leaks clearly have porte vocals. Abd if the vocals were removed you would be able to tell, not only that but why would cool cat75 go through the trouble of messing with the leaks other than adding (and later removing) his DJ tag.


And Chamife, it was alot of copy and paste and rime shifting. Though 2 parts are off. I say i did a decent job for two hours
 
You think Sony and the MJ estate are gonna throw away 9 Michael Jackson songs ?

I can almost guarantee we haven't seen the end of the Cascio era (I just made that up).

"Michael" was not a failure it sold around 2-3 million or more it's just 1 year people are acting like it released a decade ago.


Cascio era? Ok...
 
Re: utter bullshit

let me remind you that samhabib's access to this thread was taken due to continuous use of that and disrespect to other people's opinions. if you make a habit of using that as an actual response , your fate won't be any different. Don't mix up joking about it versus actually using it and meaning it.
 
And some people should really try to be less provocative with the things that they are posting, especially when some of them really don't give a damn about MJ and his career and they are being deliberatelly provocative just to piss other people off.
 
Re: utter bullshit

let me remind you that samhabib's access to this thread was taken due to continuous use of that and disrespect to other people's opinions. if you make a habit of using that as an actual response , your fate won't be any different. Don't mix up joking about it versus actually using it and meaning it.
I'm sorry, but you're calling what "kreen" wrote which I quoted an opinion? Read again. Look at all his assumptations, he think he knows everthing. It's like he is God. I think it's nonsense what he is writing and I'm sharing my thoughts on that.

And Ivy, not to attack you, but it seems to me that you never, ever bother replying believer's posts (where they are very wrong or absurd, etc), but always the doubter's posts. I know this is normal because you are on their "side", but it's not really fair like in situaions like this.
 
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kreen;3572275 said:
Yep, it sounds like MJ, with Porte basically replacing him on the chorus. It's not a good MJ vocal, though, and it sounds like it was recorded in a basement, by amateurs, just for fun, and was never meant to be released. It also sounds like it was overproduced to make it releasable. And it sounds like MJ wasn’t exactly at the top of his form vocally or otherwise when he recorded those vocals in 2007.

Basically, it sounds exactly like what it was always supposed to be. No need to resort to a big conspiracy. It’s MJ, just not high-quality, ready-to-be released MJ.


The funny thing about this whole controversy, of course, is that if those 12 Cascio vocals had never been released, they would already be legendary among fans; we’d be clamouring for them to be released, we’d be imagining they’re amazing, we’d be angry at the Estate for saying they’re not ready for release. And whey they were finally released, we’d convince ourselves they’re great, and would have been classics had MJ lived to finish them.
Oprah: "Years later, fast forward to, I would say, the beginning of '07, he came ready to work. And that's what we did. We spent long hours working in the studio, recording."
Doesn't sound it was just for fun only. Sounds like they meant serious business.

"I think Michael would be very excited right now, that the music he was making for his fans, they were finally getting a chance to hear it.

"Michael made it for his fans, he recorded for his fans and they deserve for it to come out."

Doesn't sound like it was never meant to be released. He wanted his fans to hear it, that he recorded it for us, according to Eddie Cascio.

And another of Jackson's regular collaborators, producer Teddy Riley, is standing by Cascio's claim, even though he admits it might not be the superstar at his very best.

Riley adds, "We must continue his legacy. Michael's worst days were better than all of these people's (critics') worst days. This is still Michael."

If it was for fun, amateuristic and Riley says it might not be Michael at his best, talking about his worst days, then why release it? They were friends, weren't they?
 
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Of course I think that we should respect each others opinions and I understand that you do not want people to use terms like 'utter bullshit', but how is this an acceptable way to express an opinion:
kreen;3572322 said:
Man, you hear MJ on all of those songs, and « don’t hear MJ » on the Cascio tracks, because you know they’re from the Cascios. Your knowledge of what those songs are, who they’re from, etc., influences what you hear. Our senses are influenced by what we think, especially if we have strongly-held beliefs and emotions.

I can assure you, because it’s human nature and you are human, that in an alternate universe, if KYHU had been presented by mistake on “Michael” as being a self-written MJ composition that he recorded, say, in 2009 in Las Vegas, you’d say you recognize MJ on the song, but don’t on “Beautiful Girl”, if THAT one was presented to you as being from the Cascios.

It's not about the opinion itself (I strongly disagree with it, but if that's kreen's opinion, fair enough), but about the way it is expressed. Imagine if I would write something like this:

Man, you hear MJ on all of those Cascio tracks, just because they're released on an official Michael Jackson album. Your knowledge of what the Estate says about these songs, the fact that you really want to hear new Michael Jackson music, etc., influences what you hear. Our senses are influenced by what we think, especially if we have strongly-held beliefs and emotions.

I can assure you, because it’s human nature and you are human, that in an alternate universe, if Let Me Let Go had accidentally been presented by the Estate as a Michael Jackson song, you'd say you recognize MJ on the song, but not on KYHU, if THAT one just happened to leak on YouTube without an endorsement from the Estate.

I wouldn't fault kreen for responding with "utter bullshit" to that to be honest (even though I might think there is some truth to it).
 
Not sure what to make of this but Jason Malachi, or someone with access to his account, posted on MaxJax in a topic about whether Jean Walker of Jason Malachi is a better impersonator.

I love that Jason dude.

( :lol: )
 
ADKIc3mAnX;3572639 said:
I know but you said "I think it's perfectly fine to like the songs. But, some go on to say Monster is one of Michael's best effort. It's simply not true." and by you saying it's not true that is one of the things that spark a believer/doubter war.
</SPAN>

When you re-read your posts, have you realized how contradictive your points are?</SPAN>

At one point, you told people to set a lower expectation for the Cascio tracks, as they are just demos/guide vocals &#8211; not full blown MJ efforts. </SPAN>

At another point, you said Monster is great and is among MJ&#8217;s best.</SPAN>

So, which is it? It can&#8217;t be both. It&#8217;s &#8220;either-or.&#8221; By saying the Cascio tracks are demos/guide vocals, one automatically refutes the second claim. </SPAN>

Now, if you think my statement is not true. By all means, counter it. Tell me what you think. Why it&#8217;s true that Monster is among Michael&#8217;s best effort? What makes you think that? Is it the vocal range? Is it the tone of his voice? Is it the composition? Is it the instrumentation? There are OBJECTIVE criteria you can use to validate your opinion, instead of saying &#8220;it&#8217;s my opinion.&#8221; </SPAN>

I really hope that people can stop saying fans are at war. This thread has been in existence for more than a year. We&#8217;ve came a long way. We are all victims. We don&#8217;t come here to attack each other. Despite our difference in this topic, we are all fans. We are here for the same man. There isn&#8217;t any war. Heated conversation, yes. War, no. Since when heated conversation means war? I can have a very heated conversation with you here. But, if I were to meet you tomorrow and talk about other topics, we probably will have a very good time. </SPAN>

Also, we have learned to understand each other much better now than a year ago. But, have you read my entire posts? Have you tried to understand my points? Have you thought about the examples that I gave? </SPAN>

ivy;3572646 said:
For a second I'll quote wikipedia.

Quality in business, engineering and manufacturing has a pragmatic</SPAN> interpretation as the non-inferiority or superiority of something; it is also defined as fitness for purpose</SPAN>. Quality is a perceptual</SPAN>, conditional and somewhat subjective</SPAN> attribute and may be understood differently by different people. </SPAN>

as a person with business background I can tell you that each individual determines quality based on their expectations - therefore it's subjective and based on perception.

for example for some people Walmart could be selling inferior products and for some other people they could be perfect products.
</SPAN>

People&#8217;s perception and interpretation are subjective. I totally agree with that. Our perception is shaped by our background and culture. However, quality in business does not only have a pragmatic interpretation, but also an objective attribute that is measurable.</SPAN>

The above quote is above people&#8217;s expectation and perception. However, there are measurable objective data that are not influenced by people&#8217;s perception. For instance, quality in automobile can be measured by mileage per gallon of gas, how good the automobile handles impact, etc. Quality in clothing can be measured by craftsmanship, fit and material used. Quality in medical care can be measured by death rate, length of hospital stay, emergency room wait time, cost of care. There are OBJECTIVE measures to determine quality in business world. If not, BMW can spend all its money on hiring Tom Cruise and George Clooney to appear on commercials to build an image and influence people&#8217;s perceptions and forget about mechanical engineering to improve actual performance of its sedans and SUV&#8217;s. </SPAN>

As a person with accounting background (Accounting is a business discipline. Contrary to the stereotype, I don&#8217;t count beans. I used to practice in public &#8211; I examined other companies&#8217; financial records as an independent auditor.) I can tell you quality is not solely based on people&#8217;s subjective expectations, but can be measured against an established set of standards.</SPAN>

For instance, in a hypothetical situation, say I was to examine the financial record of Lehman Brothers. I couldn&#8217;t draw a conclusion based on the company&#8217;s reputation and history. Of course I could set appropriate expectation (expectation would be low since the real estate market was tumbling and mortgage backed securities were way overvalued), but it would be unethical for me to say Lehman Brothers&#8217; financial heath was great since the book was in better shape than my expectation. I have to assess the quality of the financial health of Lehman Brothers, based on objective measurable financial data, such as per share earnings, debt-to-asset ratio, liquidity, etc., not based on my own perceptions. Lehman Brothers had to prepare the accounting information according to generally accepted accounting principles. I, as an auditor, had to audit the book according to generally accepted auditing standards (or, more precisely, standards of the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (United States).) Why these principles and standards are &#8220;generally accepted&#8221;? Because they are objective and bias free. Different people will come to similar conclusion if adhering to the same standards. Lehman could hire me or another auditor to perform the audit, if the other auditor and I assessed the same objective data adhering to the same rules, we would come to the same conclusion. Doesn&#8217;t matter if we speak the same language, come from the same city. We could have very different perceptions, but similar assessments.

ivy;3572646 said:
No. everyone's criteria is based on their expectations and perceptions.The subjective nature of quality can be seen by asking "what is the best / worst xyz (for example what is the highest quality car)?" question. You'll see that the answers differ. If it was objective like you claimed we should have get the same answer from everyone but we don't.
</SPAN>

People can always say Hyundai is better than Mercedez Benz. But, that doesn&#8217;t mean the statement is true. As a matter of fact, it can be easily refuted if people start to cite measurable attributes like re-sell value, mileage, accident rate, etc&#8230; </SPAN>

People&#8217;s perception to quality is subjective. But, if I ask people to pick the best car based on a certain measurable attributes, not based on their perceptions, then the answers will be much more consistent.


ivy;3572646 said:
correct that these two cannot be compared but it's only because they are apples and oranges. You need to consider "fitness for purpose" the Wikipedia definition mentioned. For example if the criteria is "keeping dry when running" most probably a Nike sportwear will be rated as a better quality than an Alexander McQueen dress.
</SPAN>

Isn&#8217;t this my whole point? That a Nike t-shirt can not be compared to an art-piece like an Alexander McQueen dress? Say, Monster is a Nike t-shirt and Earth Song is an Alexander McQueen dress, how the two can be compared? If they can&#8217;t be compared, how can people say Monster is among MJ&#8217;s best? They are not saying Monster is among MJ&#8217;s best posthumous song, but MJ&#8217;s best in general.</SPAN>

Yes, &#8220;keeping dry when running&#8221; is an objective criterion. People can run test to see how well Nike t-shirt and Alexander McQueen dress absorb body moisture. Nike scores in that attribute. However, is &#8220;keeping dry when running&#8221; the only criterion to access quality? How about other objective measurable attributes that people used to assess quality? And, I asked people who think Monster is among MJ&#8217;s best to give me an criterion in which Monster is rated superior. Not just an opinion, but an criterion.


ivy;3572646 said:
and the answer to this depends on again your expectations. For an unfinished, posthumous release they could be "high quality". We'll see the answer to this in the upcoming years and releases.
</SPAN>

I think it&#8217;s fine to say Monster is MJ&#8217;s best posthumous release. It&#8217;s reasonable for me to say my Nike is the best work-out clothes I own (the pool being my Nike, my Gap, my Puma). But, it&#8217;s hard for me to say my Nike is the best piece of clothing in my closet (the pool being my Nike, my Alexander McQueen, my Burberry.) MJ&#8217;s entire catalog is like the entire closet. Posthumous release is like the disposable work-out clothes and Earth Song is like the once-a-life-time purchase like an Alexander McQueen. </SPAN>

I actually don&#8217;t have any Alexander McQueen. I just saw the exhibition. ;)</SPAN>
 
Not sure what to make of this but Jason Malachi, or someone with access to his account, posted on MaxJax in a topic about whether Jean Walker of Jason Malachi is a better impersonator.



( :lol: )

Now this is pretty significant. Jason did indeed have an account with that name at Maximum Jackson, although I was under the impression that he was no longer a member. He always used to talk about himself in the third person. Now if that is him, then someone should take this opportunity to get in contact with him.

Edit: yes it is Jason's account but it appears to have been hacked. Jason never referred to himself as "that Jason dude"....
 
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If it is Jason Malachi, maybe we should try to contact him. the only probelm is his email and PM is hidden -.-

:/


sigh....if it is him we should invite him to this thread....
 
Now this is pretty significant. Jason did indeed have an account with that name at Maximum Jackson, although I was under the impression that he was no longer a member. He always used to talk about himself in the third person. Now if that is him, then someone should take this opportunity to get in contact with him.

Edit: yes it is Jason's account but it appears to have been hacked. Jason never referred to himself as "that Jason dude"....
Maybe he's been reading Korgnex's posts? :)

It's still the same account as the one he used to post under, you can still look up his post history and I don't think he was ever banned at MaxJax. No posts, prior to the one today, have been made with that account since April 2009. I do remember someone on MaxJax (I think one of the admins or mods) writing about exchanging a private message with Jason shortly after the whole Cascio controversy kicked off. I think Jason said that he could neither confirm nor deny that he was the vocalist of the Cascio tracks, or something along those lines (my memory is sketchy on this). Does anyone remember more details about this?

This is the only post 'he' has made since 'his' return. It does seem a bit weird for someone to hack it only to make just one pretty random post, but it would also be weird for Jason to suddenly show a sign of life again on an MJ forum of all places. Who knows...

Just checked and one of the admins did respond to the post by saying 'Hiiiii Jason.
biggrin2.gif
'
 
Maybe he's been reading Korgnex's posts? :)

It's still the same account as the one he used to post under, you can still look up his post history and I don't think he was ever banned at MaxJax. No posts, prior to the one today, have been made with that account since April 2009. I do remember someone on MaxJax (I think one of the admins or mods) writing about exchanging a private message with Jason shortly after the whole Cascio controversy kicked off. I think Jason said that he could neither confirm nor deny that he was the vocalist of the Cascio tracks, or something along those lines (my memory is sketchy on this). Does anyone remember more details about this?

This is the only post 'he' has made since 'his' return. It does seem a bit weird for someone to hack it only to make just one pretty random post, but it would also be weird for Jason to suddenly show a sign of life again on an MJ forum of all places. Who knows...

Just checked and one of the admins did respond to the post by saying 'Hiiiii Jason.
biggrin2.gif
'

I find his use of phrasing strange yet familiar.
 
Regarding whether I want the other Cascio songs to be released on the next album : I must admit that since they've already leaked, I'd rather they released stuff that hasn't leaked. But I realize I can't hold it against Sony if I've made the decision to listen to illegally released songs.

Like I've said, if the Cascio tracks hadn't been released, we'd all be clamouring for them to be released now, because their mysteriousness would fascinate us, and we'd hype ourselves over them. So it's really all a matter of perspective. In the end, I of course want EVERYTHING that MJ has ever recorded to be released, no matter how incomplete or even crappy it is, because it has historical value now.

Regarding WHY MJ even recorded the Cascio tracks, it's hard to to know. Did he really believe in Eddie Cascio and want to help him? Did he really like the songs? Did he want them released? Or did he do it basically as a favor to the Cascios, who were feeding him and housing him? Did he know all along he would never put those songs out, but still let Eddie think he would? Or did he think of them almost as a "seminar" for Eddie Cascio, in the same way Frank Cascio says that MJ was always trying to teach him career skills? Maybe Eddie and MJ had different expectations. We don't really know for now; maybe we will one day.
 
Regarding whether I want the other Cascio songs to be released on the next album : I must admit that since they've already leaked, I'd rather they released stuff that hasn't leaked. But I realize I can't hold it against Sony if I've made the decision to listen to illegally released songs.

Like I've said, if the Cascio tracks hadn't been released, we'd all be clamouring for them to be released now, because their mysteriousness would fascinate us, and we'd hype ourselves over them. So it's really all a matter of perspective. In the end, I of course want EVERYTHING that MJ has ever recorded to be released, no matter how incomplete or even crappy it is, because it has historical value now.

Regarding WHY MJ even recorded the Cascio tracks, it's hard to to know. Did he really believe in Eddie Cascio and want to help him? Did he really like the songs? Did he want them released? Or did he do it basically as a favor to the Cascios, who were feeding him and housing him? Did he know all along he would never put those songs out, but still let Eddie think he would? Or did he think of them almost as a "seminar" for Eddie Cascio, in the same way Frank Cascio says that MJ was always trying to teach him career skills? Maybe Eddie and MJ had different expectations. We don't really know for now; maybe we will one day.

How can fans clamour for the songs when no one knows about their existence? You make it sound like the Cascio tracks are known unreleased tracks like Al Capone, Michael McKellar, that Michael personally cited in his court disposition. Don't forget the first time fans knew about the tracks was when Roger Friedman mentioned them when the songs were sold to Sony. Before 2010, no one knew the names of any Cascio tracks and no one had any expectation.

And, have you seen anyone over-hyping Al Capone, Michael McKellar, etc.? Fans were not the one who hyped about the Cascio tracks. We simply had no idea what those unreleased materials are all about. It's Harvey Levine, Roger Friedman and the likes who hyped about the tracks. Fans weren't the one who called those tracks "the best Michael Jackson's works in the last decade." Fans aren't a bunch of insatiable crazies like how you always portrayed to be.

And, would you please explain what is the historical significance of a crappy recording?
 
And, would you please explain what is the historical significance of a crappy recording?

If they discovered an unreleased play Shakespeare wrote in 30 minutes in his bathtub, and then threw out, do you think Shakespeare scholars all over the world would NOT want to read it? We're MJ scholars, so every bit of material he recorded has historical value, from the mere fact it exists.
 
I'm sorry, but you're calling what "kreen" wrote which I quoted an opinion? Read again. Look at all his assumptations, he think he knows everthing. It's like he is God. I think it's nonsense what he is writing and I'm sharing my thoughts on that.

And Ivy, not to attack you, but it seems to me that you never, ever bother replying believer's posts (where they are very wrong or absurd, etc), but always the doubter's posts. I know this is normal because you are on their "side", but it's not really fair like in situaions like this.

as we said it over and over again, the only time I (or any other moderator) come and post here with a "moderator" hat is when a post is reported. It's not my /our personal opinion or moderation. So again if similar behavior continues and if similar posts get reported, the fate will be similar as well.

and if you have any complaints about any post aimed at you or any doubter, report it. we said it a million times before. this thread requires a reported post - a complaint for moderator action or warning.

furthermore I'm in minority among moderators in regards to our opinions about Cascio songs, so doubters really have no basis to complain about "fair" treatment.

also it's important to note that moderators do not moderate on the basis of the content of the opinion (believer / doubter) or the quality of it (absurd or not , right or wrong), they moderate on the tone and wording. Try to express your disapproval in a more respectful fashion than "nonsense, utter bullshit, excuse" etc.. You are free to disagree but you are still expected to show respect while disagreeing.
 
love is magical;3572829 said:
</SPAN>

When you re-read your posts, have you realized how contradictive your points are?</SPAN>

At one point, you told people to set a lower expectation for the Cascio tracks, as they are just demos/guide vocals – not full blown MJ efforts. </SPAN>

At another point, you said Monster is great and is among MJ’s best.</SPAN>

So, which is it? It can’t be both. It’s “either-or.” By saying the Cascio tracks are demos/guide vocals, one automatically refutes the second claim. </SPAN>

Now, if you think my statement is not true. By all means, counter it. Tell me what you think. Why it’s true that Monster is among Michael’s best effort? What makes you think that? Is it the vocal range? Is it the tone of his voice? Is it the composition? Is it the instrumentation? There are OBJECTIVE criteria you can use to validate your opinion, instead of saying “it’s my opinion.” </SPAN>

I really hope that people can stop saying fans are at war. This thread has been in existence for more than a year. We’ve came a long way. We are all victims. We don’t come here to attack each other. Despite our difference in this topic, we are all fans. We are here for the same man. There isn’t any war. Heated conversation, yes. War, no. Since when heated conversation means war? I can have a very heated conversation with you here. But, if I were to meet you tomorrow and talk about other topics, we probably will have a very good time. </SPAN>

Also, we have learned to understand each other much better now than a year ago. But, have you read my entire posts? Have you tried to understand my points? Have you thought about the examples that I gave? </SPAN>

</SPAN>

People’s perception and interpretation are subjective. I totally agree with that. Our perception is shaped by our background and culture. However, quality in business does not only have a pragmatic interpretation, but also an objective attribute that is measurable.</SPAN>

The above quote is above people’s expectation and perception. However, there are measurable objective data that are not influenced by people’s perception. For instance, quality in automobile can be measured by mileage per gallon of gas, how good the automobile handles impact, etc. Quality in clothing can be measured by craftsmanship, fit and material used. Quality in medical care can be measured by death rate, length of hospital stay, emergency room wait time, cost of care. There are OBJECTIVE measures to determine quality in business world. If not, BMW can spend all its money on hiring Tom Cruise and George Clooney to appear on commercials to build an image and influence people’s perceptions and forget about mechanical engineering to improve actual performance of its sedans and SUV’s. </SPAN>

As a person with accounting background (Accounting is a business discipline. Contrary to the stereotype, I don’t count beans. I used to practice in public – I examined other companies’ financial records as an independent auditor.) I can tell you quality is not solely based on people’s subjective expectations, but can be measured against an established set of standards.</SPAN>

For instance, in a hypothetical situation, say I was to examine the financial record of Lehman Brothers. I couldn’t draw a conclusion based on the company’s reputation and history. Of course I could set appropriate expectation (expectation would be low since the real estate market was tumbling and mortgage backed securities were way overvalued), but it would be unethical for me to say Lehman Brothers’ financial heath was great since the book was in better shape than my expectation. I have to assess the quality of the financial health of Lehman Brothers, based on objective measurable financial data, such as per share earnings, debt-to-asset ratio, liquidity, etc., not based on my own perceptions. Lehman Brothers had to prepare the accounting information according to generally accepted accounting principles. I, as an auditor, had to audit the book according to generally accepted auditing standards (or, more precisely, standards of the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (United States).) Why these principles and standards are “generally accepted”? Because they are objective and bias free. Different people will come to similar conclusion if adhering to the same standards. Lehman could hire me or another auditor to perform the audit, if the other auditor and I assessed the same objective data adhering to the same rules, we would come to the same conclusion. Doesn’t matter if we speak the same language, come from the same city. We could have very different perceptions, but similar assessments.

</SPAN>

People can always say Hyundai is better than Mercedez Benz. But, that doesn’t mean the statement is true. As a matter of fact, it can be easily refuted if people start to cite measurable attributes like re-sell value, mileage, accident rate, etc… </SPAN>

People’s perception to quality is subjective. But, if I ask people to pick the best car based on a certain measurable attributes, not based on their perceptions, then the answers will be much more consistent.


</SPAN>

Isn’t this my whole point? That a Nike t-shirt can not be compared to an art-piece like an Alexander McQueen dress? Say, Monster is a Nike t-shirt and Earth Song is an Alexander McQueen dress, how the two can be compared? If they can’t be compared, how can people say Monster is among MJ’s best? They are not saying Monster is among MJ’s best posthumous song, but MJ’s best in general.</SPAN>

Yes, “keeping dry when running” is an objective criterion. People can run test to see how well Nike t-shirt and Alexander McQueen dress absorb body moisture. Nike scores in that attribute. However, is “keeping dry when running” the only criterion to access quality? How about other objective measurable attributes that people used to assess quality? And, I asked people who think Monster is among MJ’s best to give me an criterion in which Monster is rated superior. Not just an opinion, but an criterion.


</SPAN>

I think it’s fine to say Monster is MJ’s best posthumous release. It’s reasonable for me to say my Nike is the best work-out clothes I own (the pool being my Nike, my Gap, my Puma). But, it’s hard for me to say my Nike is the best piece of clothing in my closet (the pool being my Nike, my Alexander McQueen, my Burberry.) MJ’s entire catalog is like the entire closet. Posthumous release is like the disposable work-out clothes and Earth Song is like the once-a-life-time purchase like an Alexander McQueen. </SPAN>

I actually don’t have any Alexander McQueen. I just saw the exhibition. ;)</SPAN>
I have said this before if I say it's one of Michael's best work it's my opinion and if I did say it, it was because it's my favorite song from the "Michael" album. Now I also said don't expect a Thriller because posthumous releases should not be expected to be something like Thriller because you will be disappointed.

I also said yesterday that Michael has enough unreleased material to amaze us like Thriller did in the 80's because we love new music by the King and many of his unreleased songs are amazing to me the Cascio track are among them.

One more thing I said this to you "I know but you said "I think it's perfectly fine to like the songs. But, some go on to say Monster is one of Michael's best effort. It's simply not true." and by you saying it's not true that is one of the things that spark a believer/doubter war." because you are saying it like "I know what's good and bad IDC what you say Monster is bad" that is one of the things that pisses off the believers because their opinions are taken from them as soon as they say they like the Cascio tracks and many of them leave the thread because of it.
 
If they discovered an unreleased play Shakespeare wrote in 30 minutes in his bathtub, and then threw out, do you think Shakespeare scholars all over the world would NOT want to read it? We're MJ scholars, so every bit of material he recorded has historical value, from the mere fact it exists.

Okay... let's not get mixed up in our analogy here.

An unreleased play Shakespeare wrote in his bathtub in 30 minute. Is it a complete play? Or, just one act? Or, just several lines?

If it's a complete play, then the newly discovered play does have high historical value. But, if it's just a very rough manuscript with just a few lines written, and some contemporary writters are asked to complete the work, can it still be called a newly discovered play by Shakespeare?

I'm sure Shakespear scholars would want to read those few lines written by Shakespeare. However, assuming those few lines are just some crappy random lines, what value can they add to the existing works?
 
The issue of what should be released and in what form it should be released has totally faded to the background to me. The issue of who's vocals they used and branded as Michael's is the main priority to me now.
 
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