Michael - The Great Album Debate

[ADKIc3mAnX]

How can fans clamour for the songs when no one knows about their existence? You make it sound like the Cascio tracks are known unreleased tracks like Al Capone, Michael McKellar, that Michael personally cited in his court disposition. Don't forget the first time fans knew about the tracks was when Roger Friedman mentioned them when the songs were sold to Sony. Before 2010, no one knew the names of any Cascio tracks and no one had any expectation.

And, have you seen anyone over-hyping Al Capone, Michael McKellar, etc.? Fans were not the one who hyped about the Cascio tracks. We simply had no idea what those unreleased materials are all about. It's Harvey Levine, Roger Friedman and the likes who hyped about the tracks. Fans weren't the one who called those tracks "the best Michael Jackson's works in the last decade." Fans aren't a bunch of insatiable crazies like how you always portrayed to be.

And, would you please explain what is the historical significance of a crappy recording?

Then I guess by no one knowing about their existence they did a good job since they were Unreleased songs it's good to keep them unknown.

 

[love is magical]

I have said this before if I say it's one of Michael's best work it's my opinion and if I did say it, it was because it's my favorite song from the "Michael" album. Now I also said don't expect a Thriller because posthumous releases should not be expected to be something like Thriller because you will be disappointed.

I also said yesterday that Michael has enough unreleased material to amaze us like Thriller did in the 80's because we love new music by the King and many of his unreleased songs are amazing to me the Cascio track are among them. .

So, Monster is Michael's best work because it's your favorite song from Michael. Okay.

But, you went on to say don't expect the Cascio traks to be anything like Thriller because it's a posthumous release.

Now, do you see you are contradicting yourself. First, you said it's among Michael's best (meaning as good as Thriller or even better than Thriller, because it's Michael's best.) Then, you said don't expect it to be as good as Thriller.

Again, which is it? Michael's best? Or, not as good as Thriller.

One more thing I said this to you "I know but you said "I think it's perfectly fine to like the songs. But, some go on to say Monster is one of Michael's best effort. It's simply not true." and by you saying it's not true that is one of the things that spark a believer/doubter war." because you are saying it like "I know what's good and bad IDC what you say Monster is bad" that is one of the things that pisses off the believers because their opinions are taken from them as soon as they say they like the Cascio tracks and many of them leave the thread because of it.

Never ever in my post I said "I know what's good and what's bad." It's not my problem that you choose to twist my words.

If I don't see you as equal and if I don't take your opinion seriously like I take others, I would not spend time responding your posts.

 

[Willy]

Remember a youtube vlog entry about Malachi allegedly admitting to the fraud? Well, it's just been removed by IFPI.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcX4gs1f7fk

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Okay... let's not get mixed up in our analogy here.

An unreleased play Shakespeare wrote in his bathtub in 30 minute. Is it a complete play? Or, just one act? Or, just several lines?

If it's a complete play, then the newly discovered play does have high historical value. But, if it's just a very rough manuscript with just a few lines written, and some contemporary writters are asked to complete the work, can it still be called a newly discovered play by Shakespeare?

I'm sure Shakespear scholars would want to read those few lines written by Shakespeare. However, assuming those few lines are just some crappy random lines, what value can they add to the existing works?

Because you think the Cascio tracks are "Crappy" it does not make them "Crappy" or to other fans.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

So, Monster is Michael's best work because it's your favorite song from Michael. Okay.

But, you went on to say don't expect the Cascio traks to be anything like Thriller because it's a posthumous release.

Now, do you see you are contradicting yourself. First, you said it's among Michael's best (meaning as good as Thriller or even better than Thriller, because it's Michael's best.) Then, you said don't expect it to be as good as Thriller.

Again, which is it? Michael's best? Or, not as good as Thriller.



Never ever in my post I said "I know what's good and what's bad." It's not my problem that you choose to twist my words.

If I don't see you as equal and if I don't take your opinion seriously like I take others, I would not spend time responding your posts.

Read it again....

I have said this before if I say it's one of Michael's best work it's my ->opinion

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

So, Monster is Michael's best work because it's your favorite song from Michael. Okay.

But, you went on to say don't expect the Cascio traks to be anything like Thriller because it's a posthumous release.

Now, do you see you are contradicting yourself. First, you said it's among Michael's best (meaning as good as Thriller or even better than Thriller, because it's Michael's best.) Then, you said don't expect it to be as good as Thriller.

Again, which is it? Michael's best? Or, not as good as Thriller.



Never ever in my post I said "I know what's good and what's bad." It's not my problem that you choose to twist my words.

If I don't see you as equal and if I don't take your opinion seriously like I take others, I would not spend time responding your posts.

Please read the whole thing again

I have said this before if I say it's one of Michael's best work it's my opinion and if I did say it, it was because it's my favorite song from the "Michael" album. Now I also said don't expect a Thriller because posthumous releases should not be expected to be something like Thriller because you will be disappointed.

I also said yesterday that Michael has enough unreleased material to amaze us like Thriller did in the 80's because we love new music by the King and many of his unreleased songs are amazing to me the Cascio track are among them.

 

[love is magical]

I give up.

 

[Jesta]

I give up.

Just stay calm and think of the amazing year ahead of you, Love. the IMMORTAL show, new Queen album with MJ/Freddie collaborations, Bad 25. BTW, have you got a Bad 25 calendar? I just got it the other day while in my town centre!! What about you, Arky?

 

[Arklove]

Just stay calm and think of the amazing year ahead of you, Love. the IMMORTAL show, new Queen album with MJ/Freddie collaborations, Bad 25. BTW, have you got a Bad 25 calendar? I just got it the other day while in my town centre!! What about you, Arky?

I probably won't buy a calendar, no...If I see one kicking around here, maybe...

 

[bluesky]

When you re-read your posts, have you realized how contradictive your points are?

At one point, you told people to set a lower expectation for the Cascio tracks, as they are just demos/guide vocals – not full blown MJ efforts.

At another point, you said Monster is great and is among MJ’s best.

So, which is it? It can’t be both. It’s “either-or.” By saying the Cascio tracks are demos/guide vocals, one automatically refutes the second claim.

Now, if you think my statement is not true. By all means, counter it. Tell me what you think. Why it’s true that Monster is among Michael’s best effort? What makes you think that? Is it the vocal range? Is it the tone of his voice? Is it the composition? Is it the instrumentation? There are OBJECTIVE criteria you can use to validate your opinion, instead of saying “it’s my opinion.”

I really hope that people can stop saying fans are at war. This thread has been in existence for more than a year. We’ve came a long way. We are all victims. We don’t come here to attack each other. Despite our difference in this topic, we are all fans. We are here for the same man. There isn’t any war. Heated conversation, yes. War, no. Since when heated conversation means war? I can have a very heated conversation with you here. But, if I were to meet you tomorrow and talk about other topics, we probably will have a very good time.

Also, we have learned to understand each other much better now than a year ago. But, have you read my entire posts? Have you tried to understand my points? Have you thought about the examples that I gave?



People’s perception and interpretation are subjective. I totally agree with that. Our perception is shaped by our background and culture. However, quality in business does not only have a pragmatic interpretation, but also an objective attribute that is measurable.

The above quote is above people’s expectation and perception. However, there are measurable objective data that are not influenced by people’s perception. For instance, quality in automobile can be measured by mileage per gallon of gas, how good the automobile handles impact, etc. Quality in clothing can be measured by craftsmanship, fit and material used. Quality in medical care can be measured by death rate, length of hospital stay, emergency room wait time, cost of care. There are OBJECTIVE measures to determine quality in business world. If not, BMW can spend all its money on hiring Tom Cruise and George Clooney to appear on commercials to build an image and influence people’s perceptions and forget about mechanical engineering to improve actual performance of its sedans and SUV’s.

As a person with accounting background (Accounting is a business discipline. Contrary to the stereotype, I don’t count beans. I used to practice in public – I examined other companies’ financial records as an independent auditor.) I can tell you quality is not solely based on people’s subjective expectations, but can be measured against an established set of standards.

For instance, in a hypothetical situation, say I was to examine the financial record of Lehman Brothers. I couldn’t draw a conclusion based on the company’s reputation and history. Of course I could set appropriate expectation (expectation would be low since the real estate market was tumbling and mortgage backed securities were way overvalued), but it would be unethical for me to say Lehman Brothers’ financial heath was great since the book was in better shape than my expectation. I have to assess the quality of the financial health of Lehman Brothers, based on objective measurable financial data, such as per share earnings, debt-to-asset ratio, liquidity, etc., not based on my own perceptions. Lehman Brothers had to prepare the accounting information according to generally accepted accounting principles. I, as an auditor, had to audit the book according to generally accepted auditing standards (or, more precisely, standards of the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (United States).) Why these principles and standards are “generally accepted”? Because they are objective and bias free. Different people will come to similar conclusion if adhering to the same standards. Lehman could hire me or another auditor to perform the audit, if the other auditor and I assessed the same objective data adhering to the same rules, we would come to the same conclusion. Doesn’t matter if we speak the same language, come from the same city. We could have very different perceptions, but similar assessments.



People can always say Hyundai is better than Mercedez Benz. But, that doesn’t mean the statement is true. As a matter of fact, it can be easily refuted if people start to cite measurable attributes like re-sell value, mileage, accident rate, etc…

People’s perception to quality is subjective. But, if I ask people to pick the best car based on a certain measurable attributes, not based on their perceptions, then the answers will be much more consistent.




Isn’t this my whole point? That a Nike t-shirt can not be compared to an art-piece like an Alexander McQueen dress? Say, Monster is a Nike t-shirt and Earth Song is an Alexander McQueen dress, how the two can be compared? If they can’t be compared, how can people say Monster is among MJ’s best? They are not saying Monster is among MJ’s best posthumous song, but MJ’s best in general.

Yes, “keeping dry when running” is an objective criterion. People can run test to see how well Nike t-shirt and Alexander McQueen dress absorb body moisture. Nike scores in that attribute. However, is “keeping dry when running” the only criterion to access quality? How about other objective measurable attributes that people used to assess quality? And, I asked people who think Monster is among MJ’s best to give me an criterion in which Monster is rated superior. Not just an opinion, but an criterion.




I think it’s fine to say Monster is MJ’s best posthumous release. It’s reasonable for me to say my Nike is the best work-out clothes I own (the pool being my Nike, my Gap, my Puma). But, it’s hard for me to say my Nike is the best piece of clothing in my closet (the pool being my Nike, my Alexander McQueen, my Burberry.) MJ’s entire catalog is like the entire closet. Posthumous release is like the disposable work-out clothes and Earth Song is like the once-a-life-time purchase like an Alexander McQueen.

I actually don’t have any Alexander McQueen. I just saw the exhibition.

I kind of disagree with that (quote in bold). The entire closet would mean all kind of music genre (classical, pop, jazz, etc). - again subjective as I might own some classical, or jazz or pop.

Also, in terms of quality assessment, it's not quite the same to compare a piece of music with and ojbect like a watch or an automobile .. something that you can touch , see.

Music is subjective in taste and difficult to judge because it involves emotion and feeling.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Just stay calm and think of the amazing year ahead of you, Love. the IMMORTAL show, new Queen album with MJ/Freddie collaborations, Bad 25. BTW, have you got a Bad 25 calendar? I just got it the other day while in my town centre!! What about you, Arky?

Which one did you buy the long one or the square one ?

 

[Jesta]

I probably won't buy a calendar, no...If I see one kicking around here, maybe...

Fair enough, but it does look pretty awesome on the inside! Classic Mike strutting his stuff from concerts and films!! Though there's one picture form the Victory Tour and one picture at the very end from the Dangerous Tour... But it's not THAT jarring. It's a full year of Bad, and I can't wait!! No-one - believer or hater - can get me down during this time!!!

 

[claudiadoina]

Hi guys! :ciao: long time no see

I need an answer please.Did you hear this?
Do you know anything about this recording?Is that even Michael?And where did it come from?

From 0:59 on.

 

[Arklove]

Fair enough, but it does look pretty awesome on the inside! Classic Mike strutting his stuff from concerts and films!! Though there's one picture form the Victory Tour and one picture at the very end from the Dangerous Tour... But it's not THAT jarring. It's a full year of Bad, and I can't wait!! No-one - believer or hater - can get me down during this time!!!

Haha...love your enthusiasm ...I've got a few MJ calendars already...

 

[love is magical]

Just stay calm and think of the amazing year ahead of you, Love. the IMMORTAL show, new Queen album with MJ/Freddie collaborations, Bad 25. BTW, have you got a Bad 25 calendar? I just got it the other day while in my town centre!! What about you, Arky?

Don't worry. I'm fine. I'm a naturally calm person. One has to learn to let go when the discussion is getting to a dead end. A good discussion is a two-way street. It takes two to tango. No, I didn't get the 201 calendar. I had the 2011 and 2010 one. I decided not to buy one this year.

 

[ivy]

Now, the estate is focusing on projects to keep the Jackson flame alive for long-time fans while introducing younger audiences to his work. Jackson left behind enough music for one more album, according to a person with knowledge of the singer’s business. (A 2010 album of new songs that the estate released sold a half-million copies.)

(ps : that number is USA sales number)

 

[Aniram]

Love you all and glad to see you're still here fighting for the truth! I'm at the local library, just decided to check up on everyone! Hi Love, Hi Jesta!! Hi Arklove! Hey ivy!!! Hey Bumper!!! Hey claudiadoina! Hey everyone!!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Hi guys! :ciao: long time no see

I need an answer please.Did you hear this?
Do you know anything about this recording?Is that even Michael?And where did it come from?

From 0:59 on.

Fake

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Now, the estate is focusing on projects to keep the Jackson flame alive for long-time fans while introducing younger audiences to his work. Jackson left behind enough music for one more album, according to a person with knowledge of the singer’s business. (A 2010 album of new songs that the estate released sold a half-million copies.)

(ps : that number is USA sales number)

Wait 1 more album ?

Update: Michael has tons of unreleased material that leaked they can release that in the future.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Don't worry. I'm fine. I'm a naturally calm person. One has to learn to let go when the discussion is getting to a dead end. A good discussion is a two-way street. It takes two to tango. No, I didn't get the 201 calendar. I had the 2011 and 2010 one. I decided not to buy one this year.

I read all your posts. I totally agree with you. The problem is that you are wasting your breath and your time. While you are talking about measurable objective quality, people ram with arguments such as "subjectivity" and "my opinion this", "my opinion that".

Honestly, who cares about whose opinion inhere? We're even not discussing personal subjective opinions, but the Cascio tracks which are uncomparable to any other previously recorded MJ song. Nor after 2007 as a matter of fact.

You can trhow the best objective arguments in the face of people, they'll answer 'it's your opinion, and I have mine'. This makes me think of people denying the existence of dinosaurs. You show them the fossiles, but no matter what, they say 'that's your opinion' and they continue believing whatever they want to believe.

p.s. Hi Aniram, welcome back.

 

[StellaJackson]

Can you perhaps elaborate on this?

Cease and desist emails for simply discussing Cascio tracks on twitter. Threats of legal action against people who have not even uploaded anything Cascio related or leaked/stolen at all for that matter. Taking fans to court for leaking Cascio material while those who leak non Cascio material get away with it. Attempts to scare fans from talking about the issue publicly by making them feel guilty by saying they are going against Michael etc. Removing twitter and facebook pages that are attempting to expose the truth, despite not having any material at all on them. Filing copyright claims against people who say it is Jason on youtube, even when their videos contain no copyrighted material. Banning people from the official MJ website who dare to question the tracks.

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

This is injustice. We must try to cure.

I want this to be over with, i believe the Cascio tracks arent sung by Michael...and the vibrato is a give away, and we know that processing cant change that. If anything it will make the vocal sound even more off......why cant we do anything? I mean doubter or believer the Cascio tracks cause to much of an issue to be released.....

 

[ivy]

Cease and desist emails for simply discussing Cascio tracks on twitter. Threats of legal action against people who have not even uploaded anything Cascio related or leaked/stolen at all for that matter. Taking fans to court for leaking Cascio material while those who leak non Cascio material get away with it. Attempts to scare fans from talking about the issue publicly by making them feel guilty by saying they are going against Michael etc. Removing twitter and facebook pages that are attempting to expose the truth, despite not having any material at all on them. Filing copyright claims against people who say it is Jason on youtube, even when their videos contain no copyrighted material. Banning people from the official MJ website who dare to question the tracks.

Google Defamation / Slander / Libel.

You'll see that it's illegal to accuse people of criminal activities (in this instance fraud) - in USA it's automatic defamation (defamation per se). Not only they can sue but they can also ask for damages (such as lost sales). So be careful and be sure that you are actually "discussing" and not accusing. and your language is clearly a "personal opinion" and not written as it's a "fact" (to argue freedom of speech defense)

 

[Jesta]

Gaz, is there a way you can help us finally put this issue to bed? Given that you're the owner of this site, which is one of the biggest MJ sites in the world, can't you help us get some answers from the Estate? We need answers, or else this debate won't end. This has been going on for a year and it's still strong. Believe me when I say, this debate will never end until we have a result.

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

I second what Jesta said. Im tired of this debate it will not end unless earth is blown up...lol

 

[Jesta]

These songs have done more harm than good. We just want proof, Gaz. A lot of us don't want to believe that these are fake, it's a terrible thing to believe But with the circumstances, the lack of proof and the obvious vocal anomalies, we need something to be done! We don't enjoy going around in circles, and contrary to what may be popular belief, no-one here gets a kick out of arguing. I would personally prefer to not argue because it's fruitless to even try to put your point of view across without someone using their opinion like a fact or just trying to reinforce their opinion without expressing why they think the way they do.

Again, we want proof. Not from a statement that just "assures" us, but tangible proof that's undisputable. Is that really too much to ask, to put a year-old matter to rest?

You yourself said that the sheer fact that the authenticity has been put into question raises alarms! And a good fraction of the fanbase believe these songs to either be fake or a black mark on MJ's discography. We need confirmation, transparency, being addressed to like equals and treated with respect by FINALLY putting an end to this all!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

...carry on.

Isn't that one of the Cascio songs that you are singing?

 

[Jesta]

We are looking at doing a Q&A with Eddie Cascio, which hopefully we will be able to tackle the issue of the vocal sound different to the usual Michael Jackson songs.

OK, thank you Gaz. We appreciate you helping us like this. As I said, we just want proof. If we can get this proof, then we can at least all agree on something.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

We are looking at doing a Q&A with Eddie Cascio, which hopefully we will be able to tackle the issue of the vocal sound different to the usual Michael Jackson songs.

Well done, but if I may, last time we did this with Frank, he didn't answer any of the direct questions asked on the forum. So, can we be sure if it happens, that the interviewer quotes the questions rather than paraphrasing them?

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Thanks Gaz for reassuring me, surely an Q&A with Eddie Cascio will sort this out once and for all. hopefully he can prove without a doubt that these songs are Michael...becuase if he comes out and says its not the Media will have a field day....