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Michael - The Great Album Debate

ADKIc3mAnX said:
#1 I said a while ago that the voice sounds a bit different due to the Melodyne and other programs the songs went through.

#2 Yes they were over produced.

#3 I like the Cascio tracks ever since Breaking News premiered, I love all of Michael's music he has unreleased songs that can amaze us 10 years from now just like Thriller did back in the 80's and I think that the Cascio songs if produced right can be some of them.

Michael is not here with us anymore so any music that releases now will not be like Michael left it he never thought he was going to die young no one does so it's up to his friends, producers and family to finish/release it as he would like it no one knew him more like the people he worked with.
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Well lets hope that your wishes are not going to be heard by the Sony people so we don't have another disastrus album like "Michael" was.
 
SoCav said:
So according to your simple answer, Michael did several takes of each song, and conveniently left out a different part on each take (e.g., hummed the first verse on the first take but sang the second verse, and on the second take sang the first verse and hummed the second verse), so that it neatly could be combined into one 'complete' vocal track. Most importantly, if it was just a guide vocal, why would he record several takes anyway?
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ask the experts and the people who examined the tracks. the copy pastes aren't verse + verse. The copy pastes even happen on the same sentences.

work in progress could be partial. I have experienced artists to record a partially done song, mumble or do harmonies at some parts, record a later written verse/bridge later. it's normal for work in progress songs. you can be assured that michael's other songs most probably had multiple demos, guide vocals etc - search for billie jean demos for example.

for example let's see this


0:08 - 0: 14 talking to the engineer

0:17 recording error - a scratch sound

0:20 heeeeeeeeeeee - anyone has anything similar to that ?

0:22 - 0:41 too low, incomplete - most probably unusable in a release - unless somewhat processed , amplified

1:04 - 1:13 : Mumbling, harmonies etc

1:18 "buttercup a day"

1:32 hear the sniffs ? :)

assume that Michael died and you have 3 demos / guides similar to this and you are going to do a complete song.

what you gonna do?

yep cut and paste of the 3 demos to come up with a complete and usable vocals

ps: do you realize that this is not even remotely close to the released song? why is he even recording it?

oh yeah cause it's a work in progress and musicians do record multiple takes , versions of the songs
 
Chamife said:
In reply to Ivy's last sentence...

"Most of the time the simplest answer is the right one":



question: Why doesn't Michael sound like Michael?

answer: because it isn't.




Couldn't resist :D
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unfortunately your question is subjective. :) very easily the opposite question can be asked and an opposite answer can be given.

for example

question : why does 2 experts, multiple musicians that worked with Michael and a group of fans think it's Michael?

answer: because it is Michael.


to be clear I was talking about theory wise. Let's summarize shall we

Cascio / Sony / Estate (take your pick) decided to fake some songs for some reason risking reputation, fraud lawsuits, financial penalties and even removal from their positions (executors and Malachi from law enforcement).
They went with Malachi.
Malachi is a Michael Jackson soundalike and apparently according to people here he has the most experience and best technique.
Yet he cannot get through a single song , he needs multiple takes and selection of the "most convincing" parts
So he's both has the "most experience" and "best technique" and also has no ability as well. the people going all the trouble for "most convincing" parts, don't consider his "goat vibrato" at all.
Even though Cascio/ Sony/ Estate has Malachi at their disposal and record multiple takes to pick the best of them, they leave obvious errors (such as snort on Breaking News) on the recordings.
Even though they have Malachi at their disposal they do not record in MJ style with MJ soundalike (Jason) laying multiple lead and background vocals.
Even though they have Malachi at their disposal they do not also create other takes - in other words also create their proof - to convince and shut up 3T.
These faking happens with the knowledge of Cascio / Porte / Malachi / all members of Cascio family and they also effectively include Dileo, Friedman and even TMZ to back them up.
Although the work put out is so crappy and incomplete (see above) and so "obvious" for some fans , yet this "crappy and obvious" fake can effectively fools 2 experts, multiple musicians that worked with Michael including Bruce Swedien and fans. Or the alternative Sony is also involved in this and buying these experts and musicians for their silence and/ or support.
Even though all of the above happened there's no single evidence that would hold in court and prove any of the above claims and nothing is done. And Sony / Estate / Cascio is well protected.
and all of these for what? a 2 Million selling album for Sony/ Estate, Eddie keeping recording in his basement, Porte doing audio work from his home and Malachi continuing to be a cop.

honestly now. does that even make sense to you?

or let's go with the simplest route: this is michael not so good recordings and processed / edited to make them releasable.

That's a whole a lot simpler explanation then the above scenario.
 
teli-mj said:
Well lets hope that your wishes are not going to be heard by the Sony people so we don't have another disastrus album like "Michael" was.
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You think Sony and the MJ estate are gonna throw away 9 Michael Jackson songs ?

I can almost guarantee we haven't seen the end of the Cascio era (I just made that up).

"Michael" was not a failure it sold around 2-3 million or more it's just 1 year people are acting like it released a decade ago.
 
Great example but I think complicated answers can be the right ones too.

Example: It's really complicated to explain to people (and even to some fans) in detail why MJ settled with the Chandlers, when the simplest answer could be: he was guilty.
 
Sorry Ivy, i will never think that is Mj voice and everybody knows it all over Mj worldwide fan clubs, all over the net, all over the Jackson family... etc etc... I am really sad anyone think it is really Mj.. :(And the only reason of snorts on Breaking News is that Eddie, Porte, Jason & Frank are really bad producers and they expected to fool the fans as Jason did with Let me let go and Mamacita.But they only needed to fool executives of Music company and Estate.... they didn't know about typical snorts and yelps from Cupeta.
 
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lucilla said:
Great example but I think complicated answers can be the right ones too.

Example: It's really complicated to explain to people (and even to some fans) in detail why MJ settled with the Chandlers, when the simplest answer could be: he was guilty.
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I don't think it's complicated to explain why he settled (he was a major earning artist and his insurance firm settled to make it go away and not risk in court and not affect his career and did not want a civil trial happen before a criminal trial) - I can explain it under 30 seconds. What's is complicated or hard is changing people's predetermined opinions or misconceptions - in your example guilt of Michael. We actually see the same here. I said this multiple times. Regardless of what explanation, proof or evidence (call it what you want) is given people will not change their opinions about these songs.
 
ivy said:
I don't think it's complicated to explain why he settled (he was a major earning artist and his insurance firm settled to make it go away and not risk in court and not affect his career and did not want a civil trial happen before a criminal trial) - I can explain it under 30 seconds. What's is complicated or hard is changing people's predetermined opinions or misconceptions - in your example guilt of Michael. We actually see the same here. I said this multiple times. Regardless of what explanation, proof or evidence (call it what you want) is given people will not change their opinions about these songs.
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Oh, those are several words and still is missing the explanation about how the law changed since the early 90's.
I thought we were talking about explanations in few words like "It's MJ singing" "He was guilty", etc.

But I agree about the misconceptions, that's why I mentioned "some fans" too.
 
Kapital77 said:
Sorry Ivy, i will never think that is Mj voice and everybody knows it all over Mj worldwide fan clubs, all over the net, all over the Jackson family... etc etc... I am really sad anyone think it is really Mj.. :(And the only reason of snorts on Breaking News is that Eddie, Porte, Jason & Frank are really bad producers and they expected to fool the fans as Jason did with Let me let go and Mamacita.But they only needed to fool executives of Music company and Estate.... and they didn't know about typical snorts and yelps from Cupeta.
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That's what you call an opinion not a proven fact.

And I love the Jackson family and all but they
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
#1 I said a while ago that the voice sounds a bit different due to the Melodyne and other programs the songs went through.

#2 Yes they were over produced.

#3 I like the Cascio tracks ever since Breaking News premiered, I love all of Michael's music he has unreleased songs that can amaze us 10 years from now just like Thriller did back in the 80's and I think that the Cascio songs if produced right can be some of them.

Michael is not here with us anymore so any music that releases now will not be like Michael left it he never thought he was going to die young no one does so it's up to his friends, producers and family to finish/release it as he would like it no one knew him more like the people he worked with.
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No, the Cascio songs, no matter how well they might be produced, will never ever be songs like Thriller or Keep the Faith or Threatened. Never ever. Why? Because the genius is gone. No one can produce a song like Michael did. I'm not saying there is only one good producer in this world. I'm not detifying Michael. But, there is only one Michael Jackson. No one can replicate his magical touch.

And, it's not up to his friends or producers to release anything becasue they knew Michael. No one knows Michael except Michael himself. Just look at the way Teddy Riley produced Breaking News. Don't know about you. But, the Teddy Riley who produced In The Closet and the Teddy Riley who produced Breaking News seem like two different people to me. That to me shows how big an influence Michael was as an producer. That shows me how far he pushed his producers. That shows me how hard he produced his producers.

Assuming all these Cascio tracks are 100% authentic legally, meaning there isn't any uncredited vocal. It doesn't take away the fact that these songs are not only over produced, but also highly mixed with someone else's vocals. James Porte is the name being mentioned often. These songs might as well be called James Porte songs, featuring Michael Jackson. Michael's voice is totally overwhelmed. The soul, energy and richness in his voice are sucked out.

Why would people who love and appreciate Michael's music want such mess in an album that carries his name? Forget about legal sense or business sense. Just think about how he spent seven years on Earth Song. Think about the work ehtics he put into his works ever since he's a kid.

I'm not living in la-la-land. I know the nature of posthumous release (grab bag of whatever they can find to make money. forget about tribute. this isn't any tribute. you don't pay tribute to someone by piecing together vocals that are so sub-par.) But still, the fan in me is still very upset.

I like to hear songs like I Am A Loser and People of the World, so I want to listen unreleased songs aw well. But, if I Am A Loser is just a demo with one verse recorded and in order to make it releasable, they have to hire a supporting vocalist to back the song up. Then, I'd rather the song stay in the vault.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
[youtube]4US8jOB9dwI[/youtube]
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Never heard this one before. Do you think Michael wanted to sing the background vocals because of the lyrics? (some lines are the same as in Swing Time)

Sorry for an off topic post, but I keep thinking about it since Bumper has posted it ;)
 
love is magical said:
No, the Cascio songs, no matter how well they might be produced, will never ever be songs like Thriller or Keep the Faith or Threatened. Never ever. Why? Because the genius is gone. No one can produce a song like Michael did. I'm not saying there is only one good producer in this world. I'm not detifying Michael. But, there is only one Michael Jackson. No one can replicate his magical touch.

And, it's not up to his friends or producers to release anything becasue they knew Michael. No one knows Michael except Michael himself. Just look at the way Teddy Riley produced Breaking News. Don't know about you. But, the Teddy Riley who produced In The Closet and the Teddy Riley who produced Breaking News seem like two different people to me. That to me shows how big an influence Michael was as an producer. That shows me how far he pushed his producers. That shows me how hard he produced his producers.

Assuming all these Cascio tracks are 100% authentic legally, meaning there isn't any uncredited vocal. It doesn't take away the fact that these songs are not only over produced, but also highly mixed with someone else's vocals. James Porte is the name being mentioned often. These songs might as well be called James Porte songs, featuring Michael Jackson. Michael's voice is totally overwhelmed. The soul, energy and richness in his voice are sucked out.

Why would people who love and appreciate Michael's music want such mess in an album that carries his name? Forget about legal sense or business sense. Just think about how he spent seven years on Earth Song. Think about the work ehtics he put into his works ever since he's a kid.

I'm not living in la-la-land. I know the nature of posthumous release (grab bag of whatever they can find to make money. forget about tribute. this isn't any tribute. you don't pay tribute to someone by piecing together vocals that are so sub-par.) But still, the fan in me is still very upset.

I like to hear songs like I Am A Loser and People of the World, so I want to listen unreleased songs aw well. But, if I Am A Loser is just a demo with one verse recorded and in order to make it releasable, they have to hire a supporting vocalist to back the song up. Then, I'd rather the song stay in the vault.
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How do you know that I Am A Loser just has 1 verse recorded ?
 
ivy said:
ask the experts and the people who examined the tracks. the copy pastes aren't verse + verse. The copy pastes even happen on the same sentences.

work in progress could be partial. I have experienced artists to record a partially done song, mumble or do harmonies at some parts, record a later written verse/bridge later. it's normal for work in progress songs. you can be assured that michael's other songs most probably had multiple demos, guide vocals etc - search for billie jean demos for example.

for example let's see this


0:08 - 0: 14 talking to the engineer

0:17 recording error - a scratch sound

0:20 heeeeeeeeeeee - anyone has anything similar to that ?

0:22 - 0:41 too low, incomplete - most probably unusable in a release - unless somewhat processed , amplified

1:04 - 1:13 : Mumbling, harmonies etc

1:18 "buttercup a day"

1:32 hear the sniffs ? :)

assume that Michael died and you have 3 demos / guides similar to this and you are going to do a complete song.

what you gonna do?


yep cut and paste of the 3 demos to come up with a complete and usable vocals


ps: do you realize that this is not even remotely close to the released song? why is he even recording it?

oh yeah cause it's a work in progress and musicians do record multiple takes , versions of the songs
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Although I love to hear demo's from Michael, I'd say: Don't make a complete song out of it. Leave them the way they are. They aren't ready to be released as a complete song.

ivy said:
unfortunately your question is subjective. :) very easily the opposite question can be asked and an opposite answer can be given.

for example

question : why does 2 experts, multiple musicians that worked with Michael and a group of fans think it's Michael?

answer: because it is Michael.
Click to expand...
Thinking it's Michael is a bit different than sounding like Michael.

I can think it's Michael even though it doesn't sound like him. Thinking if it's Michael isn't good enough, but you have to hear/recognize him. It has to be obvious. He has to sound like himself.

I have the impression almost every fan thinks he sounds strange. All kinds of fans.


to be clear I was talking about theory wise. Let's summarize shall we

Cascio / Sony / Estate (take your pick) decided to fake some songs for some reason risking reputation, fraud lawsuits, financial penalties and even removal from their positions (executors and Malachi from law enforcement).
They went with Malachi.
Malachi is a Michael Jackson soundalike and apparently according to people here he has the most experience and best technique.
Yet he cannot get through a single song , he needs multiple takes and selection of the "most convincing" parts
So he's both has the "most experience" and "best technique" and also has no ability as well. the people going all the trouble for "most convincing" parts, don't consider his "goat vibrato" at all.
Even though Cascio/ Sony/ Estate has Malachi at their disposal and record multiple takes to pick the best of them, they leave obvious errors (such as snort on Breaking News) on the recordings.
Even though they have Malachi at their disposal they do not record in MJ style with MJ soundalike (Jason) laying multiple lead and background vocals.
Even though they have Malachi at their disposal they do not also create other takes - in other words also create their proof - to convince and shut up 3T.
These faking happens with the knowledge of Cascio / Porte / Malachi / all members of Cascio family and they also effectively include Dileo, Friedman and even TMZ to back them up.
Although the work put out is so crappy and incomplete (see above) and so "obvious" for some fans , yet this "crappy and obvious" fake can effectively fools 2 experts, multiple musicians that worked with Michael including Bruce Swedien and fans. Or the alternative Sony is also involved in this and buying these experts and musicians for their silence and/ or support.
Even though all of the above happened there's no single evidence that would hold in court and prove any of the above claims and nothing is done. And Sony / Estate / Cascio is well protected.
and all of these for what? a 2 Million selling album for Sony/ Estate, Eddie keeping recording in his basement, Porte doing audio work from his home and Malachi continuing to be a cop.

honestly now. does that even make sense to you?

or let's go with the simplest route: this is michael not so good recordings and processed / edited to make them releasable.

That's a whole a lot simpler explanation then the above scenario.
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I don't know what all the experts listened to.

And I'm not sure wheather the Cascio singer recorded in multiple takes. No idea.

And no, this doesn't make sense at all. Can't believe this happened.
 
When you listen to Teddy Riley's work on the Michael album you can really see who the true mastermind behind the Dangerous album was. Teddy seems to be completly lost without Michael.
 
Chamife said:
Although I love to hear demo's from Michael, I'd say: Don't make a complete song out of it. Leave them the way they are. They aren't ready to be released as a complete song.
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that would be true if he was alive but this is a posthumous release. and I wrote in detail about the reality of it. For Tupac they released his old songs (his style had changed a lot), his raw demos and so on. For Biggie they even used his previously released verses and created new songs. even his rap in Invincible is from a previously released song with Shaq. In short in posthumous releases you see normally not releasable songs to be worked and get released. And you'll ask why? and the answer is simple. There's two choices. Either you would accept that the artist is dead and you'll never get any new release. or you would want to get anything and everything and not care about how complete or incomplete or perfect / imperfect a song is.

Seeing that how fans want everything to be released we cannot blame Sony / Estate for releasing these normally not finished songs.


Thinking it's Michael is a bit different than sounding like Michael.

I can think it's Michael even though it doesn't sound like him. Thinking if it's Michael isn't good enough, but you have to hear/recognize him. It has to be obvious. He has to sound like himself.

I have the impression almost every fan thinks he sounds strange. All kinds of fans.
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don't focus my word choice of think. It was just to show that even an alternative can be said.
 
analogue said:
When you listen to Teddy Riley's work on the Michael album you can really see who the true mastermind behind the Dangerous album was. Teddy seems to be completly lost without Michael.
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It's not easy for anyone when you have a job as big as producing a Michael Jackson song (s) without him.
 
ivy said:
that would be true if he was alive but this is a posthumous release. and I wrote in detail about the reality of it. For Tupac they released his old songs (his style had changed a lot), his raw demos and so on. For Biggie they even used his previously released verses and created new songs. even his rap in Invincible is from a previously released song with Shaq. In short in posthumous releases you see normally not releasable songs to be worked and get released. And you'll ask why? and the answer is simple. There's two choices. Either you would accept that the artist is dead and you'll never get any new release. or you would want to get anything and everything and not care about how complete or incomplete or perfect / imperfect a song is.

Seeing that how fans want everything to be released we cannot blame Sony / Estate for releasing these normally not finished songs.
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It depends on the quality of the demo, so in which stadium the songs are. But you're right, some fans don't care about the quality, as long as it has Michael's name on it.

Not saying that nothing should be released ever again.







don't focus my word choice of think. It was just to show that even an alternative can be said.
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Ok, I said if it doesn't sound like him, the only logical explanation is that it isn't him.

You said: The experts said it's him, so the only logical explanation is that it's him. (as an alternative)

I only know what I hear. I wasn't there at this listeningsession, I only have the statement of the estate. And it's not logical for me to believe everything I read.
 
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"Damn, near any chimpanzee could record Michael - he's such a pro, he's unbelievable"

Bruce Swedien, 1993.

:glare:
I wish he could say this again.
 
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The thing is, other people can make Michael Jackson music without him right there, at least enjoyable music. Just look at Hold my Hand and Behind the Mask to an extent. Finished without him, but they're enjoyable as hell to listen to! I'm surprised that there isn't a consensus that these songs aren't representative of the man's great talent.

I have to reiterate this: just because you like something doesn't mean it's good. For example, I kinda like the game Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), but it is plagued by terrible controls, a boring/predictable story and a ton of glitches. I like it for the sense of accomplishment I get from it (plus the dialogue can be pretty fun sometimes). But do I think more games like that should be released? No, this was in itself was unreleasable and they shouldn't have pressed it for a Christmas release! I'm glad that since then, they've released games that did not feature any real resemblance to this game because it is the black mark of the franchise.

Now replace "the game Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)" with "the Cascio tracks", and replace "terrible controls, a boring/predictable story and a ton of glitches" with "poorly-sung vocals, generic/headscratching lyrics and an ambiguous vocalist". Are these songs you WANT released purely because you like them? Wouldn't you rather listen to a gem from Invincible, or even another song recorded with Barry Gibb, or Darkchild, or Dr. Freeze?

Again: Just because you like something doesn't necessarily mean it's a well-made thing. It's just your personal taste and NOT an assessment of the quality of the work itself.
 
and therefore

Just because you don't like something doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad-made thing. It's just your personal taste and NOT an assessment of the quality of the work itself.
 
ivy said:
and therefore

Just because you don't like something doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad-made thing. It's just your personal taste and NOT an assessment of the quality of the work itself.
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I was about to type that lol you beat me to it.
 
ivy said:
and therefore

Just because you don't like something doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad-made thing. It's just your personal taste and NOT an assessment of the quality of the work itself.
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You know what? I agree. That's why I give credit where credit is due with "Michael", because it's not a terrible album. Even the Cascio tracks have pretty cool instrumentals, if sounding slightly out of place with the other songs. However, by objective comparisons to even other songs on that album, the three points in my previous post stands. In comparison to say, Another Day which was recorded at a home studio, the vocals are powerful, and Michael is literally yelling his vocals out of his body. In Breaking News, the vocal track seems to stay on a calm level throughout, rarely adventuring out of the calmness. Take Hollywood for an example, it has an unfinished vocal track, but the lyrics are not straightforward and tells a coherent story. In Monster, the writer does do actually do a half-decent job of comparing the media to monsters, but at the same time the lyrics feel disjointed, like the hook doesn't belong with the rest of the lyrics. And in Keep Your Head Up, the lyrics seem to want to amalgamate ALL world problems, but it feels jarring and confusing (switching from tough economic times to environmental problems without any kind of segue). Plus the opening lyrics are VERY contrasting ("she's looking for a job...", "She's working two jobs, keeping alive...") And finally, take ANY other song on the album. All of them have classic MJ trademarks such as vocal breaths, his accent and his - at times - commanding vocals. Now look at the Cascio tracks. It's obvious that the vocalist is ambiguous, or else we wouldn't be here. The aforementioned MJ trademarks have been pasted in from other songs. The strongest vocals* are from Monster and half of the final choruses of that have pasted vocals/ad-libs.

So, looking upon this as objectively as I can, the points I made in my previous post still stands.



* Own opinion
 
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