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Michael - The Great Album Debate

love is magical said:
My wish list: Bad, Dangerous and History tours on Blu-ray. If Sony thinks it's not commercially viable, then could they just release the Blu-ray as special collector edition. I'm willing to pay an obscene amount of money for them. :lol:
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Nice! I think I'm just way too cynical to even think about what I want :lol:
 
albums / projects doesn't matter. 250 / 10 = $25M paid for per project or album. My point is that if they are paying for $25 million for every project or album, they can have different approach to what to include or not. It's easy to say do not include them, it's another story to not use them when you are paying millions for any release and any purchase. Companies don't want to see their investments go to waste. I still think Sony will use these songs in some fashion in the future.
 
ivy said:
albums / projects doesn't matter. 250 / 10 = $25M paid for per project or album. My point is that if they are paying for $25 million for every project or album, they can have different approach to what to include or not. It's easy to say do not include them, it's another story to not used them when you are paying millions for any release and any purchase. Companies don't want to see their investments go to waste. I still think Sony will use these songs in some fashion in the future.
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Then they are completely stupid if they do. There will be an absolutely damning campaign against any future album that includes Cascio tracks. Wasting their investment in these tracks (which were paid for on top of the 250 mil) will be an understatement.
 
And things could have been way different.

Just imagine if they put a little effort.

1) This is it was brilliant and perfect. - Genious at work
The Thriller and the Earth Song should (have) definitely be (been) released in 3-D as it was meant to be.

2) The video game MJ - The experience! Although the character looks a bit odd, it's still a good idea!

3) Immortal - the Cirque show - I haven't seen it, but I saw the trailer, looks amazing!

MJ's posthumous legacy could have been a real success if they did not screw up with

4) the Cascio songs and

5) low quality videos on DVD.

Regarding teh Estate's/SONY's album Michael, they could have brought much more life to it via modren techniques and by creating awesome videos for the songs such as Behind The Mask, Hollywood Tonight, and some other songs that they shoulmd have included such as Slave To The Rhythm, Blue Gangsta and 12 o'clock!

I mean come on, what do we have instead on this album:

a) 3 questionable vocals (out of 10 songs, that is 30% of the album!)
b) "Hold my hand" which had leaked in 2008 (then why not including Escape too? or some other leaks?) (that's 40% of the album)
c) "The way you love me", a song that has already been released (that's already 50% of the album)

so with a 50% effort album without slightest new idea for an original video, I mean really come on. Let's not forget that the last song is about 2 minutes only, which means that the choice to include it on a 10 (sorry 5)-track album wasn't a brilliant one.

And they hope what? To release other Cascio songs such as Fall in love (eeeeew) or Solider boy in which we will supposedly hear MJ sing "he was stabbed in the back as a matter of fact"? This is pathetic!
 
Has Michael earned $25 million in sales? It shipped 3 million. But, I don't think it sold over 2 million.

Assuming album sells at $10, there is no way Sony could earn $25 million.

Im curious to see what Sony thinks. The strategy on Michael didn't work if $25 million was their goal.
 
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love is magical said:
Has Michael earned $25 million in sales? It shipped 3 million. But, I don't think it sold over 2 million.

Assuming album sells at $10, there is no way Sony could earn $25 million.

Im curious to see what Sony thinks. The strategy on Michael didn't work if $25 million was their goal.
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Considering it's being sold for 44p brand new on amazon market place then I doubt it. Serves them right.
 
love is magical said:
Has Michael earned $25 million in sales? It shipped 3 million. But, I don't think it sold over 2 million.

Assuming album sells at $10, there is no way Sony could earn $25 million.

Im curious to see what Sony thinks. The strategy on Michael didn't work if $25 million was their goal.
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LOL! They were even giving away free copies of the Michael album included with The Experience on xbox..
 
love is magical said:
Has Michael earned $25 million in sales? It shipped 3 million. But, I don't think it sold over 2 million.

Assuming album sells at $10, there is no way Sony could earn $25 million.

Im curious to see what Sony thinks. The strategy on Michael didn't work if $25 million was their goal.
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I would say probably it sold around maximum 2.2 million ( 2010 sales were 1.2 Million -listed at position 29 and 2011 it must be below 1.1 M - as it's not listed).

Who knows how much money they made? Physical stores are selling the album more expensively - Walmart initially were selling it around $15 now it's $12. Amazon ranged from $8 to $12. Fye is still selling it for $15. International countries generally charge higher (I just checked my home country it's selling around $18) With special packages (that came with t-shirt and such) they might have made $25Million.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
And things could have been way different.

Just imagine if they put a little effort.

1) This is it was brilliant and perfect. - Genious at work
The Thriller and the Earth Song should (have) definitely be (been) released in 3-D as it was meant to be.

2) The video game MJ - The experience! Although the character looks a bit odd, it's still a good idea!

3) Immortal - the Cirque show - I haven't seen it, but I saw the trailer, looks amazing!

MJ's posthumous legacy could have been a real success if they did not screw up with

4) the Cascio songs and

5) low quality videos on DVD.

Regarding teh Estate's/SONY's album Michael, they could have brought much more life to it via modren techniques and by creating awesome videos for the songs such as Behind The Mask, Hollywood Tonight, and some other songs that they shoulmd have included such as Slave To The Rhythm, Blue Gangsta and 12 o'clock!

I mean come on, what do we have instead on this album:

a) 3 questionable vocals (out of 10 songs, that is 30% of the album!)
b) "Hold my hand" which had leaked in 2008 (then why not including Escape too? or some other leaks?) (that's 40% of the album)
c) "The way you love me", a song that has already been released (that's already 50% of the album)

so with a 50% effort album without slightest new idea for an original video, I mean really come on. Let's not forget that the last song is about 2 minutes only, which means that the choice to include it on a 10 (sorry 5)-track album wasn't a brilliant one.

And they hope what? To release other Cascio songs such as Fall in love (eeeeew) or Solider boy in which we will supposedly hear MJ sing "he was stabbed in the back as a matter of fact"? This is pathetic!
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Instead of promotional and marketing efforts that make sense, they came up with "the world's largest poster" -_-

The Making of Michael is known among fans only. I really can't comprehend the sloppiness of the campaign.

Ivy, as someone who studies marketing, how would you grade the Michael album promotion? Do you see something I don't?
 
ivy said:
I would say probably it sold around maximum 2.2 million ( 2010 sales were 1.2 Million -listed at position 29 and 2011 it must be below 1.1 M - as it's not listed).

Who knows how much money they made? Physical stores are selling the album more expensively - Walmart initially were selling it around $15 now it's $12. Amazon ranged from $8 to $12. Fye is still selling it for $15. International countries generally charge higher (I just checked my home country it's selling around $18) With special packages (that came with t-shirt and such) they might have made $25Million.
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Ivy, what's the typical profit margin for record label on each album sold? $25 million in revenue hardly translate to $25 million in profit.
 
love is magical said:
Ivy, as someone who studied marketing, how would you grade the Michael album promotion? Do you see something I don't?
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Actually I think international promotion was a lot better. From my home country I have heard a lot of events and a lot of TV, radio based promotion. I haven't seen much promotion for Michael in USA but I don't see much promotion for any other artist either. The industry is terrible - sales dropped another 5 % this year so it's probable that the companies are cutting from promotion - that's always the first thing to go. Immortal on the other hand are being a lot better promoted but it might be due to Cirque involvement as well.

Ivy, what's the typical profit margin for record label on each album sold? $25 million in revenue hardly translate to $25 million in profit.
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I can't say and I didn't claim they made $25M profit. They might have just break even or made a little profit. All I meant was Michael probably was't a cost item - it might not be a high profit item as well. Such as if we assume they sold 2.2 M copies with an average price of $15 - it would equal 33M minus 25 they paid to Estate = 8 Million and assume half of it are other costs (such as promotion and money paid to producers etc) it might mean $4M profit.
 
ivy said:
Actually I think international promotion was a lot better. From my home country I have heard a lot of events and a lot of TV, radio based promotion. I haven't seen much promotion for Michael in USA but I don't see much promotion for any other artist either. The industry is terrible - sales dropped another 5 % this year so it's probable that the companies are cutting from promotion - that's always the first thing to go. Immortal on the other hand are being a lot better promoted but it might be due to Cirque involvement as well.
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True. I dont see large scale promotion for other artist either, with the exception of Lady Gaga's Born This Way.
 
I wish people who act nice and polite on here would stop being rude, insulting and exhibiting such disgusting behaviour on other sites. Or if your going to do it, at least have the sense to change your username. You know who you are.
 
ivy said:
I can't say and I didn't claim they made $25M profit. They might have just break even or made a little profit. All I meant was Michael probably was't a cost item - it might not be a high profit item as well. Such as if we assume they sold 2.2 M copies with an average price of $15 - it would equal 33M minus 25 they paid to Estate = 8 Million and assume half of it are other costs (such as promotion and money paid to producers etc) it might mean $4M profit.
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Hmm.. And, out of the $4M, how much do the retailers take? I guess we don't have enough info to determine.

Anyway, it seems to me they may want to re-think their future strategy. Michael wasn't a money maker that they hope to be.
 
love is magical said:
Hmm.. And, out of the $4M, how much do the retailers take? I guess we don't have enough info to determine.

Anyway, it seems to me they may want to re-think their future strategy. Michael wasn't a money maker that they hope to be.
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retailers take around 2-5%. and yeah we are just assuming here. and it's true it probably wasn't a money maker. my whole point it probably wasn't a devastating loss either. it might be no loss no gain type of thing.


anyway for doubters

Taj Jackson @tajjackson3
I pray @PerezHilton is wrong about @GLEEonFOX using the song "Monster" for it's MJ tribute episode. Glee is one of my fav shows. :-(
 
ivy said:
retailers take around 2-5%. and yeah we are just assuming here. and it's true it probably wasn't a money maker. my whole point it probably wasn't a devastating loss either. it might be no loss no gain type of thing.


anyway for doubters

Taj Jackson @tajjackson3
I pray @PerezHilton is wrong about @GLEEonFOX using the song "Monster" for it's MJ tribute episode. Glee is one of my fav shows. :-(
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Lol... Whatever Taj. Tweeting won't get him anywhere.

I think the executives at Epic are going to do a lot of thinking. I don't see Vision and Immortal as money makers neither. How are they going to make this $250 million deal works?

Say they want 1% average annual return on $250 million investment, they need to make $17.5 million in seven years. Let's hope the remaining six projects perform better.
 
StellaJackson said:
I'm glad Taj has spoken out again.
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Yeah, he's sure making a difference with his tweets. A lesser man might have walked the walk and sued the Cascios/the Estate/Sony, but he's doing what everybody who knows about fraud and has evidence of it should do : tweet about it in less than 140 characters.
 
kreen said:
Yeah, he's sure making a difference with his tweets. A lesser man might have walked the walk and sued the Cascios/the Estate/Sony, but he's doing what everybody who knows about fraud and has evidence of it should do : tweet about it in less than 140 characters.
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And what is he supposed to sue them for? How is he a victim? He presented everything he had to the Estate and they chose not to listen. Oh well, at least Eddie etc were brave enough to come forward and provide hard proof that Michael recorded these suspicious songs that didn't materialise until almost a year after his death, that sound just like an impersonator who has since disappeared and done nothing to clear his name, that are full of sampled breaths and adlibs, lacking any MJ trademarks on any of the lead vocal takes and that were sold for millions of dollars eh?
 
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Now this is interesting. From the US Copyright Office:

Type of Work: Music
Registration Number / Date: PAu003546425 / 2010-10-15
Application Title: Monster.
Title: Monster.
Description: Electronic file (eService)
Copyright Claimant: Bradley Buxer. Address: 553 Summit Oaks Ct., Nashville, TN, 37221, United States.
The Michael Jackson Estate d.b.a. c/o Hoffman, Sabban & Watenmaker, Transfer: By Will. Address: 10880 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 2200, Los Angeles, CA, 90024, United States.
Date of Creation: 2009
Authorship on Application: Bradley Buxer; Domicile: United States; Citizenship: United States. Authorship: music.
Michael Jackson; Domicile: United States; Citizenship: United States. Authorship: music.
Rights and Permissions: Bradley Buxer, Songwriters Guild of America, 209 10th Avenue South, Suite 321, Nashville, TN, 37203, United States, (615) 742-9945, sfein@songwritersguild.com
Copyright Note: C.O. correspondence.
Names: Buxer, Bradley
Jackson, Michael
Michael Jackson Estate

Brad Buxer had nothing to do with the Cascio Monster and neither Cascio nor Porte are credited here. Which means it's more than likely a different song. So Michael just happened to have two songs called Monster? Hmmmm.
 
Yup. MJ *recorded 2 songs called "Monster".

* - I'm not sure if the 2009 one is recorded, though.
 
The Brad Buxter one doesn't have a "sound recording" or performance , as of now the registration only seems to be lyrics + musical notes.

r we sure they are different things? I mean it's possible this to be new lyrics or music to the same song. Separate authors that do separate things can register them separately - I mean if he wanted to retain his own rights and not wanted a joint work he can do a separate registration.

Or it could be a totally different thing.

-------------------------------------------
Select Performing Arts (PA) if you are registering a musical work (with or without lyrics)

Select Sound Recording (SR) if you are registering a sound recording. Also, select Sound Recording if you are registering both the sound recording and the underlying recorded musical, dramatic, or literary work(s), along with the sound recording of the work(s). Sound recordings are works that result from the fixation of a series of musical, spoken, or other sounds.
 
love is magical said:
If any fan who openly said he believes MJ is still alive, people would jump to him and call him a crazy hoax theorist. But, if Teddy Riley did the same thing, he's excused??? Sorry, it doesn't fly by me. Judging people with double standard is as bad as judging people without understanding.

It's not easy for anyone to lose a son, a brother, an uncle and a father. But, that can't be used as an excuse. In additional to that "Michael is not dead" talk, Teddy called female fans bithches and whores. I'm sorry. I have lost a lot of respect for Teddy.

I don't know why you keep claiming you don't want to talk about the leaked tracks, while being as curious and interested as the rest of us. This is the thread to talk about the Cascio tracks. No one is a moral police here.
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I don't keep saying it I said it before and ended up talking about Burn 2 Nite.
 
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Catching up . . .

love is magical said:
Lol... Yokohama is still better than nothing. There is rumor that the tour DVD is not in the work. Bad 25 will just be re-release with a couple more remixes.

I'm telling you i'll pull my hair out if Bad 25 is similar to Thriller 25. I have bought the same song enough times.
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WHY WON'T THE BAD TOUR WORK!?!? can they at LEAST give me the yokohama version of thriller without the stupid dripping effect on it?! MY GOD.

love is magical said:
Out of the four projects, only TII can be called a hit. And, if they are going to release another GH, don't count me a customer. I'm tired of GH.

Like Arky, I have no expectation and lose excitement about future release. :(
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you know, i really don't fault them for releasing greatest hits cds. As a fan, of course i don't want them. I'd rather have an unedited 3 hour video of michael drinking tea or tying his shoes or breathing . . . but the average person doesn't. the average person doesn't even know songs (masterpieces) like little susie--they want to hear billie jean and the way you make me feel. I don't think anything's wrong with that. the more greatest hits come out, the more people will listen and hopefully, fall in love with mj's music and seek out more of it. I'm FINE with greatest hits, as long as they sprinkle some stuff in for the diehard fans (of which there are many) every once in a while. The only thing i'm not fine with is dissrespect. like, you know, fraud.

KOPV said:
A bit off topic but if I were ever to make a song to sound like Michael I would never use Jason as a sole singer because I feel like only in sertain regiters does he sound like him..

I would use Jason for strained vocals (not agressive, but Mike does have a sound to him when he is expressing sertain emotion that Jason does bring).. I would use Tom Fox for the Falsetto and some other registers.. and that one kid that has the video in Picadilly Line Subway in London for mid range tempo
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Because they're stupid and lazy. But you're right. you make a lot of good points. mixing up diff vocalists who can imitate certain parts better than others would be a more effective way to scam us. Pentum's right too, this is only going to be harder in the future, IF they ever try this again. i'm still confident no one could ever sound exactly like mj to me, except mj himself. but god it could be close.

Something else pentum said was that when he first heard jean walker, especially imitating michael as a kid, it really blew him away. But that jason sounds really far from michael, because he's so familiar with jason's voice. That's a really good point too. As you get more familiar with an impersonator's voice, it's much easier to tell the difference. the VERY first time i heard jason, years ago, i honestly thought it sounded almost exactly like mj. Now, i think it's laughable (utter bullshit ;)). You get used to it. babies probably think all people look the same for the first few days of their lives, lol
 
Jesta said:
I wish the Estate had a fan committee so that nothing like the Cascio tracks can EVER happen again. I think anyone can agree that these songs - regardless of authenticity - should NEVER have been considered for release. I'm just reiterating what we're all thinking, but these are poorly written, poorly sung songs! The worst song in terms of vocals on the "Michael" album aside from these tracks is Hollywood, and even with the auto-tune and the altered bridge, it's still FAR better vocally than these tracks! A fan committee could've solved this issue before it started. And to think, it's been over a year and these tracks still remain. I've made great friendships from this discussion, and this place helped me through school. But I honestly hoped that these tracks would be hidden away as the shame of the "MJ" discography. Instead they're trying to push these down our throats as opposed to Hollywood and Behind the Mask, easily two of the best tracks on the album!

But there is a silver lining. I still enjoy these tracks in a way. They were meant to be these super-serious tracks that Michael was proud of, but all I see is a pale attempt at an MJ song. They're hilariously bad! I've become so angry at these tracks to the point where it's laughable. The very fact that they thought that it was a good idea to release this AFTER concerns were raised is laughable! Listening to these tracks makes me laugh because of all these reasons. They're so bad, they're hilarious. Don't get me wrong, it's tragic that any of this has happened, because of the permanent black mark on Michael's otherwise flawless official catalogue, but it's hard not to laugh over the fact that they seriously thought releasing these was a good idea!!!

It's like when you listen to a Jason Malachi song and you think "Aww, he's trying to imitate MJ!!! He's failing, but awww!" I'm still passionate about the topic, don't get me wrong. It's just gone on so far to the point where the songs feel more like a novelty. A fan project. Something I would do if I could sound like MJ! Of course it'd never be branded as MJ, and the fact that these are just adds to the tragedy.
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If the estate had a fan committee it would be a war when they release another Cascio track and I don't think they would want that.

Now a fan voting website so they put like 3 songs for fans to choose 1 and the rest is up to the estate, Sony, Epic Records, etc would be cool I think.
 
love is magical said:
I'm excited about the show. Can't wait to see it in April.

But, to be honest, the album doesn't blow me away. I bought it and enjoy it. But, as expected, I haven't reach out to it again after my first listen.





$250M for 10 projects, not 10 albums.

It seems Michael failed to make the Top 20 global best sellers list. I'm wondering what Sony thinks about the performance.
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Well actually Michael Jackson is selling well, slow but well.

This Is It the movie made $261,183,588 in box offices that's over 1/4 of a billion dollars and became the biggest documentary/music film of all time.

This Is It the album has a platinum status of 23.

Vision DVD box set sold pretty well and has a platinum status of 8 while 5 of those are from the U.S alone.

"Michael" was the Global #1 album of 2010 and has a platinum status of 26.

Immortal World Tour was probably the best thing that the estate did since it brings in about $500,000.00 daily from ticket sales alone.

Immortal album is being promoted by Cirque Du Soleil which is going around North America selling out concerts/shows and some people cannot make it to the concerts or afford it so they can buy the album and at least listen to it.


My list was made to show that the $250,000,000.00 deal between Sony & the estate is doing well.
 
ivy said:
I would say probably it sold around maximum 2.2 million ( 2010 sales were 1.2 Million -listed at position 29 and 2011 it must be below 1.1 M - as it's not listed).

Who knows how much money they made? Physical stores are selling the album more expensively - Walmart initially were selling it around $15 now it's $12. Amazon ranged from $8 to $12. Fye is still selling it for $15. International countries generally charge higher (I just checked my home country it's selling around $18) With special packages (that came with t-shirt and such) they might have made $25Million.
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I still haven't opened my t-shirt :)
 
love is magical said:
Instead of promotional and marketing efforts that make sense, they came up with "the world's largest poster" -_-

The Making of Michael is known among fans only. I really can't comprehend the sloppiness of the campaign.

Ivy, as someone who studies marketing, how would you grade the Michael album promotion? Do you see something I don't?
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Sorry to interrupt but that poster idea is smart because holiday season + big poster where every plane departing and landing can see it's a good idea.

Well I'm in NYC and I seen many taxi's with the "Michael" album cover on the top and in Times Square they set up many posters with the cover.
 
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