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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Michael album already has these songs and they won't be replaced or removed. And I also think any negative effect to the sales has already happened. That can't be changed anymore either.

Another complexity is the different parties involved. Sony gave $250 Million to MJ Estate for the albums. If they are satisfied with their research they will include and use these songs.
 
ivy said:
I don't think Oprah show was about authenticity to be honest. Cascio's were one of the two/ three people that was part of the show and majority of their discussion was about their relationship with Michael. To me Oprah show was more about marketing the album, then authenticity proof.
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I did not say that the show was about authenticity. But they did have questions in advance. They knew what they were going to be asked. So instead of preparing a picture of the empty studio, something (anything) more substantially convincing would be better than their "take my word" statement.
 
Stupid question but if Eddie submitted tracks with music then how did they play a capellas during the listening session? Or did they just remove the backgrounds to make their own like some fans do?
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I did not say that the show was about authenticity. But they did have questions in advance. They knew what they were going to be asked. So instead of preparing a picture of the empty studio, something (anything) more substantially convincing would be better than their "take my word" statement.
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It's my understanding that the Cascio's were asked by Estate and/or Epic to go on Oprah and "clear this mess up". I can't for the life of me think who said that. But I think it's fair to say that without the authenticity issue, they would not have gone on there.
 
ivy said:
Michael album already has these songs and they won't be replaced or removed. And I also think any negative effect to the sales has already happened. That can't be changed anymore either.

Another complexity is the different parties involved. Sony gave $250 Million to MJ Estate for the albums. If they are satisfied with their research they will include and use these songs.
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Errors can always be repaired. When MJ used "kike me" on History album, it was replaced and it wasn't re-issued any more. They could easily remove the songs and re-issue the album with 7 songs only. At least they'd control some damage, rather than letting it go.
 
Yea, but they would have to reprint and release Michael with new songs. I think if they just move on it would be better and less costly. But if the songs are fake what would they do with the Michael album? Refunds? Rerelease the album without the Cascio tracks?
 
StellaJackson said:
Stupid question but if Eddie submitted tracks with music then how did they play a capellas during the listening session? Or did they just remove the backgrounds to make their own like some fans do?
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they would generally be separate tracks and not one composite track of everything. That's what I was mentioning the other day, Birchey told us that he saw a track called "MJ_adlibs" so that showed us that the leads were separate than the pasted adlibs therefore can be individually examined. See an unrelated protools screen

protoolsbox2screen_l.jpg


StellaJackson said:
It's my understanding that the Cascio's were asked by Estate and/or Epic to go on Oprah and "clear this mess up". I can't for the life of me think who said that. But I think it's fair to say that without the authenticity issue, they would not have gone on there.
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Actually I heard the other way around, that the Estate / Sony arranged Oprah interview and Cascios didn't really want to do it.

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Errors can always be repaired. When MJ used "kike me" on History album, it was replaced and it wasn't re-issued any more. They could easily remove the songs and re-issue the album with 7 songs only. At least they'd control some damage, rather than letting it go.
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and how would they explain the removal of the songs? I say it's quite unlikely and they won't do anything that can be seen as an acceptance of wrongdoing on their part. The "best" that can be expected IMO would be if they move on without saying anything and don't use Cascio songs in the future - kinda act like nothing happened.

edited to add: I'm thinking about it more and the edits you mention is quite common and we have clean and parental advisory versions of many songs. However removal and reissue would equal to a recall. If they did that they would need to allow the original purchasers to return the albums and replace it with the new version. It would have the acknowledgement of an error and/or wrongdoing and some financial consequences. I don't think it's even remotely likely.
 
ivy said:
If you read what Taryll etc wrote on their twitter, they choose to stop discussing this issue to not to affect the album and rest of the songs. Similar thing is rumored about Cascio's as well - that they believe any further discussion hurts Michael more than anyone.

This was what I was mentioning about this being a real complex situation. For example some people here have no problems with badmouthing the album. But even Jacksons who were initial ones to raise concerns, chose not to do that and even keep silent to not hurt the other songs that deserve to be enjoyed and realized by the fans.

I believe that's why. Obviously people would not want fake songs but they would not also want Michael to have crappy sales numbers. People might be against to fake songs but they might not want to hurt the legit songs in the process and so on.
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When you mentioned Michael, do you mean Michael the album or Michael the man we love?

If you meant Michael, the man we love, then how is he going to be hurt by a posthumous release that he's not part of. Like you said yesterday, Michael's legacy is everything from I Want You Back to This Is It. He's dead. This posthumous release is not part of his legacy. So, even if the album doesn't sell well. People can't use it against him. Michael Jackson will forever be one of the best selling artists in history.

If you meant Michael, the album. Then, how's showing evidence going to hurt sales? I'm not asking them to engage in a "he said, she said" kind of situation. Remember the Making of Michael documentary? They could show the worktape and lyric sheet the same way Neff U showed the lyrics and played the worktapes. Then, they could remain silent like the way they are now. Again, why not?
 
Michael the person and I'm not meaning in a long term "legacy" sense of the word, it's more short term than that.

Think like this they released Michael the album and assume that it didn't sell well. Media will report to it as "Michael Jackson no longer sells, people aren't interested in him anymore, he's forgotten and so on". They will never report it as "the low sales are due to controversy about the vocals". Obviously this will not affect his already established legacy of Thriller and so on. That's what I meant.

For example we have seen people here saying "go to amazon and give the album 1 star". Isn't that hurting Michael the man? and why? Sure the album might have some controversy but it has legit and wonderful songs as well. Perhaps it won't deserve a 5 star but 1 star might be overkill as well.

That's what I meant. Taryll had a twitter message that said "people asked me about KYHU but let's not discuss that so that Hold My Hand can receive the interest that it deserves". That's what I meant by hurting Michael the man - although there might be some concerns there's no reason to hurt the other songs, album sales or album reviews - it's a short term thing. Nothing and I mean nothing would change what Michael achieved in his life time - his legacy.

And again the why is - because it's not conclusive and it wouldn't resolve anything. It would cause a lot more discussion, confusion, anger and so on. What Neff-u showed isn't something that would create a discussion because there wasn't a question to start with. Cascio songs are a different situation all together.

edited to add:

I think each artists has 2 parts : in life and after death.

I call what they did "in life" as their legacy and something that cannot be changed after death.

"after death" is separate but still an important part of the artist. We see "top earning death celebrities" lists and the level of interest ( such as elvis impersonators, how many people visited graceland etc). Posthumous releases fall into this category.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Errors can always be repaired. When MJ used "kike me" on History album, it was replaced and it wasn't re-issued any more. They could easily remove the songs and re-issue the album with 7 songs only. At least they'd control some damage, rather than letting it go.
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Lol no they cannot remove 3 songs officially published on an album.

Update: If the songs are proven "Fake" then maybe with a recall by a court order.
 
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ADKIc3mAnX said:
Lol no they cannot remove 3 songs officially published on an album.Update: If the songs are proven "Fake" then maybe with a recall by a court order.
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After the severe backlash post BN's premiere, the songs should not have been included in the first place (especially if it was bad enough to warrant an official statement from the Estate...fake or not, the songs really don't have any business on an album in the state they're in..
 
ivy said:
Michael the person and I'm not meaning in a long term "legacy" sense of the word, it's more short term than that.

Think like this they released Michael the album and assume that it didn't sell well. Media will report to it as "Michael Jackson no longer sells, people aren't interested in him anymore, he's forgotten and so on". They will never report it as "the low sales are due to controversy about the vocals". Obviously this will not affect his already established legacy of Thriller and so on. That's what I meant.

For example we have seen people here saying "go to amazon and give the album 1 star". Isn't that hurting Michael the man? and why? Sure the album might have some controversy but it has legit and wonderful songs as well. Perhaps it won't deserve a 5 star but 1 star might be overkill as well.

That's what I meant. Taryll had a twitter message that said "people asked me about KYHU but let's not discuss that so that Hold My Hand can receive the interest that it deserves". That's what I meant by hurting Michael the man - although there might be some concerns there's no reason to hurt the other songs, album sales or album reviews - it's a short term thing. Nothing and I mean nothing would change what Michael achieved in his life time - his legacy.

And again the why is - because it's not conclusive and it wouldn't resolve anything. It would cause a lot more discussion, confusion, anger and so on. What Neff-u showed isn't something that would create a discussion because there wasn't a question to start with. Cascio songs are a different situation all together.
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Again, I'm not asking Eddie Cascio to do something dramatic or have war of words with the doubters. The Making of Michael was a perfect opportunity for him to clear things up. I agree with you the worktapes and lyrics sheet are not conclusive. But, at least he did his part if he was more upfront. He could rest his case.

You know my view on Eddie. I don't see him as this evil person. Actually, I quite like him for being at Michael's side after the trial. Michael called him Angel for a reason. He named his new born Victoria Michael. To me, that said a lot. I can't imagine a man naming his new born after a person he betrayed. You know what I mean?

Without the evidence, the discussion will carry on. I bet the disussion will become even more heated if more Cascio tracks are released in the next posthumous release.
 
Arklove said:
After the severe backlash post BN's premiere, the songs should not have been included in the first place (especially if it was bad enough to warrant an official statement from the Estate...fake or not, the songs really don't have any business on an album in the state they're in..
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I don't really see what's so bad about them I've been listening to MJ for 15 years now and to me they sound great.

The voice is different ? Yes a little but it's not the first time and Teddy Riley Michael's producer since 1991 explained why it happened well.

And for the people who don't own the album I was reading back on this thread and some people were complaining about the Earth Song ad-libs well FYI on the album version they are not there.

My "Michael" album plays this month
http://gyazo.com/823908efc50f12d0f21dcce99e9c0fc5
 
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ADKIc3mAnX said:
I don't really see what's so bad about them I've been listening to MJ for 15 years now and to me they sound great. The voice is different ? Yes a little but it's not the first time and Teddy Riley Michael's producer since 1991 explained why it happened well. And for the people who don't own the album I was reading back on this thread and some people were complaining about the Earth Song ad-libs well FYI on the album version they are not there.
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Well hey, if they sound great to you ..great...but to a large amount of people these songs are not even close to the calibre of work that Michael has released in the past...I've said it over and over again - IF the songs are real, the way they've tinkered with the voice and production so far to a point where no one can even recognize him...judging from Michael's past perfectionist ways and work habits, the songs, IMO, do not do him justice...If the songs are fake, then that's just sick, obviously...Sonically, vocally, and lyrically, they are weak songs when compared to his other pieces of work, which are at best, masterpieces, and at worst, amazing....I really don't see how anyone can put these Cascio songs in either category...To me, they're not worthy of Mike's legacy ...period...
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
I don't really see what's so bad about them I've been listening to MJ for 15 years now and to me they sound great.

The voice is different ? Yes a little but it's not the first time and Teddy Riley Michael's producer since 1991 explained why it happened well.

And for the people who don't own the album I was reading back on this thread and some people were complaining about the Earth Song ad-libs well FYI on the album version they are not there.

My "Michael" album plays this month
http://gyazo.com/823908efc50f12d0f21dcce99e9c0fc5
Click to expand...

If you had listened for 25 years and more on daily basis, then you'd hear what's wrong with them.
 
Arklove said:
Well hey, if they sound great to you ..great...but to a large amount of people these songs are not even close to the calibre of work that Michael has released in the past...I've said it over and over again - IF the songs are real, the way they've tinkered with the voice and production so far to a point where no one can even recognize him...judging from Michael's past perfectionist ways and work habits, the songs, IMO, do not do him justice...If the songs are fake, then that's just sick, obviously...Sonically, vocally, and lyrically, they are weak songs when compared to his other pieces of work, which are at best, masterpieces, and at worst, amazing....I really don't see how anyone can put these Cascio songs in either category...To me, they're not worthy of Mike's legacy ...period...
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It's a posthumous release you need to learn to NOT expect anything like Thriller but a little less since he is not here with us his producers and friends will know what MJ wanted and how he wanted it.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Well I'm 20 so I couldn't but I listen to MJ daily all his albums start my day with Off The Wall and end it with "Michael"

Next day J5/Jacksons albums, etc and so on.
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In ten years time you'd maybe hear what's wrong with them. :p
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
It's a posthumous release you need to learn to NOT expect anything like Thriller but a little less since he is not here with us his producers and friends will know what MJ wanted and how he wanted it.
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Did I say that I expect anything like Thriller? A little less?? LOL...as Bumper said, if ALL u listen to is MJ, you'd be able to tell what's wrong with them...Listen to MJ's work....Listen to the stuff he's done with Teddy...the production is tight and perfect....now, listen to Teddy's work on these Cascio songs? Do they sound like Teddy really paid heed to the work he produced WITH Michael back in the day? Actually, don't bother answering...You think the songs sound great, so I guess you won't notice...
 
Arklove said:
Did I say that I expect anything like Thriller? A little less?? LOL...as Bumper said, if ALL u listen to is MJ, you'd be able to tell what's wrong with them...Listen to MJ's work....Listen to the stuff he's done with Teddy...the production is tight and perfect....now, listen to Teddy's work on these Cascio songs? Do they sound like Teddy really paid heed to the work he produced WITH Michael back in the day? Actually, don't bother answering...You think the songs sound great, so I guess you won't notice...
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I just listen to Michael Jackson no one else so I know all his songs from the J5 days and you guessed it to me they sound good the problem with doubters is they always wanna be right.

Example: "The songs are not by Michael Jackson"
1 year later: "Even if they are by Michael Jackson they should have not been released"

First problem was authenticity and now it's quality what's next ?
 
Arklove said:
Did I say that I expect anything like Thriller? A little less?? LOL...as Bumper said, if ALL u listen to is MJ, you'd be able to tell what's wrong with them...Listen to MJ's work....Listen to the stuff he's done with Teddy...the production is tight and perfect....now, listen to Teddy's work on these Cascio songs? Do they sound like Teddy really paid heed to the work he produced WITH Michael back in the day? Actually, don't bother answering...You think the songs sound great, so I guess you won't notice...
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Yes you did say that you expected something like Thriller, and even better. :p
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
I just listen to Michael Jackson no one else so I know all his songs from the J5 days and you guessed it to me they sound good the problem with doubters is they always wanna be right.

Example: "The songs are not by Michael Jackson"
1 year later: "Even if they are by Michael Jackson they should have not been released"


First problem was authenticity and now it's quality what's next ?
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If you had followed this thread from the beggining you would have seen that this is not one year later statement. This was put forward from the very beginning!
 
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