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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Chamife said:
But that is what these people are trying to make us believe..that he had a part in this.
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I meant in releasing alleged fake songs . If they turn out to be fakes, no one is going to held it against Michael.

StellaJackson said:
Whilst I disagree with you wholeheartedly on this subject (I believe the songs to be JM), I can say you are indeed right on this and we need to all work together to get to the bottom of what happened. Hopefully those actions will lead to that. Whatever the outcome, I hope that the fans can join together and that neither side has a "told you so" attitude. It won't help. One thing I will say is that there has been appaling behaviour from people on both sides of the debate. I sat and read a bunch of old tweets from believers and doubters alike a little while ago and some of the comments were absolutely disgusting. I've said things I shouldn't too, which is down to sheer frustration, but i'm prepared to throw my hat in the ring and say let's work together. After all we are all here because of one thing in common: Michael Jackson.
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and I whole heartedly agree with you. The most sad thing was fans seeing other fans as enemies and trying to divide up the fan community by creating groups. I just wish that everyone realizes that the fans aren't involved in this, they just have personal and sometimes differentiating opinions and aren't the enemies. In either situation whatever group is proven right or wrong, we'll be victims.
 
^^

yes, Connie and her younger kids. It looks like he signed her coat. their father is there as well.
 
ivy said:
^^

yes, Connie and her younger kids. It looks like he signed her coat. their father is there as well.
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Oh okay thanks, but it looks as if she didn't know MJ did it since she was trying to tie someones shoe.

IDK why I think he wrote Kick Me with an arrow going down.
 
I don't know for sure either but to me it looks like this

2956154131_1_7_Mvw1jG70.jpg
 
StellaJackson said:
"but i'm prepared to throw my hat in the ring and say let's work together. After all we are all here because of one thing in common: Michael Jackson."
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I'm sorry if I misunderstand this, but isn't this all the same like I said like.. 1 month ago???
Working together instead of insulting each other to FINALLY solve this issue?

I'm very sorry, but damn, that took long for everyone to realize...
 
The posts on this page are very heartwarming. It shows how we are loving and caring deep inside, despite our difference. Being considerate is a lesson Michael taught us and a lesson I keep in my heart.

There are times that I'm very frustrated with the tone in this board, not limited to this thread, but other sections. I couldn't believe the amount of cynicism and irrational anger. But, I'm always tempted to come back.

It's important for us to remember what Michael's messages are. We are here to celebrate his legacy.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Off topic: Are these the Cascio's with MJ in an elevator ?

If they are what did Michael write on Connie's back ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btN2s-YKAac
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It seems to me that Michael just signed on Connie's coat for no particular reason. Connie wasn't asking. Aww... Michael. :wub:

Fan girl mode on - The girl in blue shirt: GET OFF MY MAN. You are pinning him against the elevator. :smack:
 
love is magical said:
The posts on this page are very heartwarming. It shows how we are loving and caring deep inside, despite our difference. Being considerate is a lesson Michael taught us and a lesson I keep in my heart.

There are times that I'm very frustrated with the tone in this board, not limited to this thread, but other sections. I couldn't believe the amount of cynicism and irrational anger. But, I'm always tempted to come back.

It's important for us to remember what Michael's messages are. We are here to celebrate his legacy.
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Yes the fan base might have separated into 2 but deep inside we are all 1 thing Michael Jackson fans.
 
And what if they are willing to answer our direct questions and they simply say: "We don't have anything, nothing has been recorded, nothing has been filmed, sorry fans, but live with it?". Could be a scenario.

I know it's a bit of a premature question..:D. First try to get them to answer.
 
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Well...i dont understand. Im sure they didnt record Michael in the studio basement recording these songs. Unless they were doing some family home video thing. I heard there were texts about the songs? if so is it possible for us to see them, or are they gone forever too? So all they would have then is the worktapes, which has been said to be destroyed.

What does that leave us with? A photo and Eddie showing us a shower where he recorded vocals for WBSS 2008.
 
No one mentioned a video and if that existed it wouldn't come to this stage. They could simply show it to Jacksons and the complaint would have ended completely.

The only things that has been said were
- text messages - which would be hard to establish actually came from Michael
- hand written lyrics - according to Teddy
- tapes discussing the songs / work tapes - according to Friedman.

If these three do exists and can be proven Michael (and not a fake), it would establish Michael's involvement and not necessarily his singing.

As it's not definitive that's probably why the Estate/ Sony went on and did a research about authenticity involving experts and a listening session.

Although there's a request for proof or evidence, I don't think there's definitive proof - from either side and this will always have a personal opinion element involved in it.

For example assume that there's text messages, handwritten lyrics, a work tape and a 90% probability rate expert reports.

One person can look to it and be satisfied and conclude it has to be Michael.
Another person can look to it and say those are faked as well or show Michael's involvement but not singing, and the expert conclusion might fall in the 10% error rate in their opinion.

I personally think this is the reason why the parties involved did not try to convince anyone - nothing was definitive and it wouldn't make a huge change.

A lot of times I asked this to the doubters. I said assume there are some text messages between Michael and Eddie about the songs, there's a lyrics sheet with Michael's writing on it, there's an audio of Michael talking about his ideas for the songs. Then you are given a report from a worldwide established expert (assume that we would all agree that he/she is the best of his/her area) that says 90% it's Michael.

Would you look to this and say "oh okay it's Michael" or would you say "fine but I still don't hear Michael"?

I called it "futile attempt" before and I still think it is. Unless there's definitive proof (ie. a video) - which I don't think there is any- nothing will change people's hearing or opinion.
 
ivy said:
No one mentioned a video and if that existed it wouldn't come to this stage. They could simply show it to Jacksons and the complaint would have ended completely.

The only things that has been said were
- text messages - which would be hard to establish actually came from Michael
- hand written lyrics - according to Teddy
- tapes discussing the songs / work tapes - according to Friedman.

If these three do exists and can be proven Michael (and not a fake), it would establish Michael's involvement and not necessarily his singing.

As it's not definitive that's probably why the Estate/ Sony went on and did a research about authenticity involving experts and a listening session.

Although there's a request for proof or evidence, I don't think there's definitive proof - from either side and this will always have a personal opinion element involved in it.

For example assume that there's text messages, handwritten lyrics, a work tape and a 90% probability rate expert reports.

One person can look to it and be satisfied and conclude it has to be Michael.
Another person can look to it and say those are faked as well or show Michael's involvement but not singing, and the expert conclusion might fall in the 10% error rate in their opinion.

I personally think this is the reason why the parties involved did not try to convince anyone - nothing was definitive and it wouldn't make a huge change.

A lot of times I asked this to the doubters. I said assume there are some text messages between Michael and Eddie about the songs, there's a lyrics sheet with Michael's writing on it, there's an audio of Michael talking about his ideas for the songs. Then you are given a report from a worldwide established expert (assume that we would all agree that he/she is the best of his/her area) that says 90% it's Michael.

Would you look to this and say "oh okay it's Michael" or would you say "fine but I still don't hear Michael"?

I called it "futile attempt" before and I still think it is. Unless there's definitive proof (ie. a video) - which I don't think there is any- nothing will change people's hearing or opinion.
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I see your point.

Nevertheless, don't you think that what was even more futile is to go on Oprah and show a picture of an empty studio or simply state "it is Michael"? If they had showed those supposed worktapes, handwritten notes, text messages, nobody could blame them for at least trying to prove it by presenting something more substantial than an empty studio.

I mean, what is more futile, a picture of an empty studio or Michael's supposed text messages, handwritten notes and worktapes?
 
I want to hear the truth about these songs, from A to Z. I'd like them to show us everything they got. I don't think that's too much asked.

And when I add everything they've shown us, then the conclusion has to be logical, obvious, reasonable etc. Like 1+1=2, which it isn't now.

And the most important question has to be answered, where is Michael on these tracks and what did you do to his voice?

They will never answer all the questions. Fans tried it before on Twitter, in a decent way and Frank never responds. Even if he had nothing to do with the songs, he could've answered just one fan back in a nice way. And Eddie has totally left planet Earth.

I feel there's too much mystery surrounding these tracks. It doesn't feel right.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I see your point.

Nevertheless, don't you think that what was even more futile is to go on Oprah and show a picture of an empty studio or simply state "it is Michael"? If they had showed those supposed worktapes, handwritten notes, text messages, nobody could blame them for at least trying to prove it by presenting something more substantial than an empty studio.

I mean, what is more futile, a picture of an empty studio or Michael's supposed text messages, handwritten notes and worktapes?
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Good point.

Both you and Ivy are right. Showing proof won't make a big difference. People who don't hear Michael will not magically hear Michael after seeing the proof. However, no one can blame them for showing more substantial collaborating evidence.
 
^ Exactly, If they still had the text, or worktapes....why not show it? Sure people will still doubt, but im sure most of us would settle that at least they gave us something more concrete.


Ignoring this probelm wont make the doubt go away. Everyones not going to wake up one day and say, "You know, becuase Sony and Eddie ignore the matter everyday i think the tracks are Michael, and they dont just sound like him, or arent him at all."


^ um no. That would never happen, if it ever did....maybe i missed out on something becuase i still have my doubts.
 
love is magical said:
Good point.

Both you and Ivy are right. Showing proof won't make a big difference. People who don't hear Michael will not magically hear Michael after seeing the proof. However, no one can blame them for showing more substantial collaborating evidence.
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What I wish Michael Jackson's estate would do is release a raw demo of Monster, Breaking News, and Keep Your Head Up because I'm sure Teddy Riley made a copy and worked on the copy and left the original untouched and I also think Eddie said that the computer was destroyed, etc because now the songs are property of the estate.
 
Frankly, I'm frustrated by their disinclination to show us more. Yes, I know showing the worktapes and lyrics sheet will not drastically improve sales figure or convert ALL doubters to believers. But still, I ask why not? What are the cons of showing evidence to fans? What harms can it cause?

ADKIc3mAnX said:
What I wish Michael Jackson's estate would do is release a raw demo of Monster, Breaking News, and Keep Your Head Up because I'm sure Teddy Riley made a copy and worked on the copy and left the original untouched and I also think Eddie said that the computer was destroyed, etc because now the songs are property of the estate.
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Ditto. You are not the first one who made such suggestion. Joe Vogel also said that he would like to have the original demos to be released side-by-side with the finalzied version. So, fans can have a glimpse of the creative process.

But, will Sony do it? The general public prefers sleak products than raw materials.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
What I wish Michael Jackson's estate would do is release a raw demo of Monster, Breaking News, and Keep Your Head Up because I'm sure Teddy Riley made a copy and worked on the copy and left the original untouched and I also think Eddie said that the computer was destroyed, etc because now the songs are property of the estate.
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We have the raw demos. We have what Eddie submitted to Sony.
 
The only harm that is being caused is doubt for future MJ projects, and if Cascio tracks are included sales will drop without a doubt. Maybe they have to Michael up the tracks more, thats why they need so much time from 2010-2013? for the next posthumous album

StellaJackson said:
We have the raw demos. We have what Eddie submitted to Sony.
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yet they sound the same vocally. The final versions are just Michaeled up a bit more
 
I have some stuff

Stay Demo
All i need demo
Monster demo snippet
BN demo snippet
Burn tonight demo
Keep your head up demo snippet
and thats about all. ill have to find it all but i have them


Found them. i have a buttload of Cascio Crap. lol Ask me and ill email the trakcs to you. id need your email though.
 
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Chamife said:
Mmmm....I heard a lot. I know of a site that has Cascio songs 'in progress' on it. Are these the raw demo's you're talking about?
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It may be. Those versions are from before Riley etc worked on any of them and as far as we know no other producer worked on them so they are as close to what Cascio submitted, if not the very same, as possible. You can tell because the production is amateur beyond belief. Sounds like they were put together by a bunch of school kids. Clearly not something MJ had a hand in producing.
 
StellaJackson said:
It may be. Those versions are from before Riley etc worked on any of them and as far as we know no other producer worked on them so they are as close to what Cascio submitted, if not the very same, as possible. You can tell because the production is amateur beyond belief. Sounds like they were put together by a bunch of school kids. Clearly not something MJ had a hand in producing.
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And the exact same voicerecording as we hear in the finished tracks. Only the music is different and 'Monster' is slower.
 
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BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I see your point.

Nevertheless, don't you think that what was even more futile is to go on Oprah and show a picture of an empty studio or simply state "it is Michael"? If they had showed those supposed worktapes, handwritten notes, text messages, nobody could blame them for at least trying to prove it by presenting something more substantial than an empty studio.

I mean, what is more futile, a picture of an empty studio or Michael's supposed text messages, handwritten notes and worktapes?
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I don't think Oprah show was about authenticity to be honest. Cascio's were one of the two/ three people that was part of the show and majority of their discussion was about their relationship with Michael. To me Oprah show was more about marketing the album, then authenticity proof.

Billyjeanplxiv said:
Ignoring this probelm wont make the doubt go away.
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love is magical said:
Frankly, I'm frustrated by their disinclination to show us more. Yes, I know showing the worktapes and lyrics sheet will not drastically improve sales figure or convert ALL doubters to believers. But still, I ask why not? What are the cons of showing evidence to fans? What harms can it cause?
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If you read what Taryll etc wrote on their twitter, they choose to stop discussing this issue to not to affect the album and rest of the songs. Similar thing is rumored about Cascio's as well - that they believe any further discussion hurts Michael more than anyone.

This was what I was mentioning about this being a real complex situation. For example some people here have no problems with badmouthing the album. But even Jacksons who were initial ones to raise concerns, chose not to do that and even keep silent to not hurt the other songs that deserve to be enjoyed and realized by the fans.

I believe that's why. Obviously people would not want fake songs but they would not also want Michael to have crappy sales numbers. People might be against to fake songs but they might not want to hurt the legit songs in the process and so on.

StellaJackson said:
We have the raw demos. We have what Eddie submitted to Sony.
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StellaJackson said:
It may be. Those versions are from before Riley etc worked on any of them and as far as we know no other producer worked on them so they are as close to what Cascio submitted, if not the very same, as possible. You can tell because the production is amateur beyond belief. Sounds like they were put together by a bunch of school kids. Clearly not something MJ had a hand in producing.
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they are not raw. as you said it has production on them. and people have no idea about what Eddie submitted and if there have been initial producers. It's just pre-Teddy Riley. So it's fine if that's your opinion but please stop writing that as it's a fact.
 
ivy said:
If you read what Taryll etc wrote on their twitter, they choose to stop discussing this issue to not to affect the album and rest of the songs. Similar thing is rumored about Cascio's as well - that they believe any further discussion hurts Michael more than anyone.

This was what I was mentioning about this being a real complex situation. For example some people here have no problems with badmouthing the album. But even Jacksons who were initial ones to raise concerns, chose not to do that and even keep silent to not hurt the other songs that deserve to be enjoyed and realized by the fans.

I believe that's why. Obviously people would not want fake songs but they would not also want Michael to have crappy sales numbers. People might be against to fake songs but they might not want to hurt the legit songs in the process and so on.
\.
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Sadly i dont have a Twitter so i havent kept up with what he posted, i only see whats on here. And of course Hold my Hand, and the others dont deserve crappy sales. Though Akon, Teddy, and McClain made their changes to the songs on Michael. They still are good and dont deserved to be held back on that album. HOWEVER, the cascio tracks could move on to a other album, and if that album has the said tracks the Cascios better address this matter so i doesnt affect the album sales negitivly. Though you said its rumoured they ignore it for that reason, if the songs are proven to be 100% Michael Jackson then i will have no probelm buying the new album. In fact i would anyways, but many others wouldnt. If the Cascios proved the songs to be Michael or replaced them with other songs the Michael Album would have sold more naturally even with its poor promotion. Atleast thats what i think
 
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