Latest on MJJC

Michael - The Great Album Debate

ivy said:
I realize no one is probably reading the long article excepts but the more I read these tests seems more reliable than they were portrayed and not that easily fooled by soundalikes.
Click to expand...

Ivy, at least six months ago I had tons of pages on audio expertise and forensic analysts that I summerized and posted in this thread. They covered all aspects of voice analyses not only within CIA, FBI, but also in other countries' police departments and secret services. I stopped summerizing because it was too long and actually irrelevant to the debate.

You yourself told me back then that the experts that were hired by SONY and the Estate were not audio forensics, but musicologists. Now you come back with the articles on audio forensics. All that you bolded, I already posted it months ago.
 
Chamife said:
How on earth is it possible the experts/wave format analysis didn't notice the 't' in 'wanting' (wan'in a piece of Michael Jackson) in Breaking News and another 't' in 'waiting' (she never thought she'd be here wai'in on me) in 'Stay' is missing ?:bugeyed. It's obvious to me they never examined Breaking News and Stay. Michael always pronounced the 't' in those kinds of words. Maybe not always clear, but never like the Cascio singer (totally skipping it).

Maybe they heard only Michaels background vocals (if he recorded those for whatever reason, could be he's in there in some songs). Maybe that's what the Estate calls raw material or lead vocals. If only the background vocals were on that tape (?), then these automatically become lead vocals, right?
Click to expand...

If you read the information about Osama identification - it wasn't 100% but in the 90-95% range.

so let's assume that words are the 5-10% "not matching" part. what if the rest is a match and you have a 90% match? What then?
 
ivy said:
If you read the information about Osama identification - it wasn't 100% but in the 90-95% range.

so let's assume that words are the 5-10% "not matching" part. what if the rest is a match and you have a 90% match? What then?
Click to expand...

Then it means there's still a shadow of doubt unlike all other MJ songs which are 100% Michael.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Ivy, at least six months ago I had tons of pages on audio expertise and forensic analysts that I summerized and posted in this thread. They covered all aspects of voice analyses not only within CIA, FBI, but also in other countries' police departments and secret services. I stopped summerizing because it was too long and actually irrelevant to the debate.

You yourself told me back then that the experts that were hired by SONY and the Estate were not audio forensics, but musicologists. Now you come back with the articles on audio forensics. All that you bolded, I already posted it months ago.
Click to expand...

Dear Bumper. I don't know who they hired or what is their exact credentials. Estate statement refers to them as "forensic musicologists". There have been also information that these people worked for FBI and so on. It might also be audio forensics or a combination. (as I don't think FBI would care about singing voices). Regardless the computer methods used such as waveform and spectogram seems to be the same (and based on a method determined decades ago) even though it might be "audio forensics" or "forensic musicologists".

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Then it means there's still a shadow of doubt unlike all other MJ songs which are 100% Michael.
Click to expand...

with any test there will be that shadow of doubt. I wrote it multiple times today. No test - even DNA- is 100% certain.
 
ivy said:
Dear Bumper. I don't know who they hired or what is their exact credentials. Estate statement refers to them as "forensic musicologists". There have been also information that these people worked for FBI and so on. It might also be audio forensics or a combination. (as I don't think FBI would care about singing voices). Regardless the computer methods used such as waveform and spectrum seems to be the same (and based on a method determined years ago) even though it might be "audio forensics" or "forensic musicologists".
Click to expand...

Well in any case, when I had posted articles about audio forensics it looked irrelevant to your eyes because your own argument was that the Estate and SONY didn't hire audio forensics but musicology experts.

Now that you decided to read and post on those audio forensics, all of sudden it seems that it doesn't matter whether the Estate / SONY hired ones or the others as if they were both.

But let me tell you something, your first remark was right: they did not hire audio/voice recognition experts but musicology experts.

An audio/voice recognition expert forensic is indeed not the same as a musicology forensic.
 
ivy said:
If you read the information about Osama identification - it wasn't 100% but in the 90-95% range.

so let's assume that words are the 5-10% "not matching" part. what if the rest is a match and you have a 90% match? What then?
Click to expand...
I skimmed through your posts, so I didn't read that particular part. I'm sure they can analyse an awful lot. But as long as we don't know what the experts analysed exactly, it's hard to comment on this.
 
ivy said:
with any test there will be that shadow of doubt. I wrote it multiple times today. No test - even DNA- is 100% certain.
Click to expand...

If there is a doubt, then the songs are unreleasable.

DYKWYCA is 100% MJ, no slightest doubt, not even 0.0.01% of doubt.
 
It never looked irrelevant to me. I simply said I wasn't knowledgeable enough to comment and discuss. Why is it so hard to understand that?

Today I was still interested in the "reliability" of the tests and not necessarily the methods.

I learned that waveform / spectogram analysis is dated back to decades ago, is commonly used, able to differentiate between soundalikes easily , works best when there's ample recording examples and can be quite reliable up to high 90s.

Estate also said that objective "waveform" analysis is done by the experts. I'll personally think that they used the same and very old method (that I read and learned in today's articles).

To me it personally seems highly reliable method.

If you choose to not agree that's your choice. I really don't care.
 
ivy said:
It never looked irrelevant to me. I simply said I wasn't knowledgeable enough to comment and discuss. Why is it so hard to understand that?

Today I was still interested in the "reliability" of the tests and not necessarily the methods.

I learned that waveform / spectogram analysis is dated back to decades ago, is commonly used, able to differentiate between soundalikes, works best when there's ample recording and quite reliable up to high 90s.

Estate also said that objective "waveform" analysis is done by the experts. I'll personally think that they used the same and very old method (that I read and learned in today's articles).

To me it personally seems highly reliable method.

If you choose to not agree that's your choice. I really don't care.
Click to expand...

I give up.
 
love is magical said:
Ivy, thanks for the article. It's very informative. Do you know anything about the Julio Eglasias and Mariah Carey authenticity cases that Tom Owen mentioned? I'm interested to know what the cases are about and how he utilized the methods and procedures on singing voice. I'd imagine it's more challenging. The aural cues listed by Sgr. Smrkovski are mostly not applicable. For instance, how can you tell one's mannerism, amplitude, speech quality and rate in singing?

Thanks for the research! This is getting interesting. You are absolutely right. I may have underestimated the capability of voice recognition. Obviously, there are a lot in the field that I don't know about.



Have you heard Blue Gangsta, DYKWYCA and STTR? If so, do you have problem commenting on those songs, which are also stolen MJ songs.
Click to expand...
I heard many unreleased songs.

Since they are stolen songs and since the leak can ruin sales for example Hold My Hand did not hit #1 on the Billboard 200 due to the leak I'm against leaks but like everyone else I enjoy the song.
 
Chamife said:
And like the song Water, I also have a strong feeling Burn Tonight could've been written after and/or inspired by TII (Michael saying "Let it burn" in Beat it), because these exact same words are sung in Burn tonight. What a coincidence.
Click to expand...
What about if MJ was inspired to say "Let it burn" on This Is It because he recorded Burn Tonight (Burn 2 Nite) in 2007.
 
^^ Or maybe he just wanted to stress that he wanted his jacket to be literally set on fire so it could burn....:p
 
Arklove said:
^^ Or maybe he just wanted to stress that he wanted his jacket to be literally set on fire so it could burn....:p
Click to expand...
That was the whole idea of it but I was just countering the other post.

"And like the song Water, I also have a strong feeling Burn Tonight could've been written after and/or inspired by TII (Michael saying "Let it burn" in Beat it), because these exact same words are sung in Burn tonight. What a coincidence."

MJ did that before with the jacket but he never burned it he just threw it on the floor now he was serious :)
 
'He was stabbed in the back....as a matter of fact....then his life became seeerrrrriiiiiouuuuuussss.....'....

Genius.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
That was the whole idea of it but I was just countering the other post.

"And like the song Water, I also have a strong feeling Burn Tonight could've been written after and/or inspired by TII (Michael saying "Let it burn" in Beat it), because these exact same words are sung in Burn tonight. What a coincidence."

MJ did that before with the jacket but he never burned it he just threw it on the floor now he was serious :)
Click to expand...

Michael Jackson when he was interviewed, he said many times "I" "you", etc. He even conjugated some verbs like "I am, you are, he is, she is", etc. And guess what. In a bunch of his songs he says the same thing! What a "coincidence". It's probably a sign.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Michael Jackson when he was interviewed, he said many times "I" "you", etc. He even conjugated some verbs like "I am, you are, he is, she is", etc. And guess what. In a bunch of his songs he says the same thing! What a "coincidence". It's probably a sign.
Click to expand...

loooool :rofl:
 
MusicMan26 said:
It seems to be the other way around in my opinion. If they really did check with Jason's people and did those voice tests like they said they did, they must have known something wasn't right. And they still put the songs on the album. And if they include any more of those songs on a future album knowing the reaction, I'd say they know very well what they're doing....and I sure won't be buying it.
Click to expand...

I see your point but let me explain. Sony purchased the songs via a deal that was brokered between Eddie Cascio and Frank Dileo. They saw no reason to doubt either party. This purchase happened sometime in the summer. It wasn't until much later (October) that things started to kick off when someone identified Jason Cupeta as the possible vocalist. It is not known who it was that first suggested Jason as a possibility. This is what caused John Branca to contact Thad Nauden who represents Jason on the 18th October. Obviously the purpose of this call was to ask if Jason had been involved and clearly Nauden denied it. Nauden received another call (possibly from Howard Weitzemann) on the following day. And then, on October 20th, Nauden was contacted by the VP of Marketing and A & R for Sony Music.

That phone call appears to be all that Sony did to investigate the songs. There is no proof that any so called tests ever took place, and if they did, then the people doing the tests would have been paid by Sony. Without more information those tests are completely irrelevant.
 
Last edited:
ADKIc3mAnX said:
What about if MJ was inspired to say "Let it burn" on This Is It because he recorded Burn Tonight (Burn 2 Nite) in 2007.
Click to expand...
That action of his in TII was that of an experienced artist, who knew how to capture/impress/play his audience. I'm pretty sure he didn't had the song Burn Tonight in mind.
The Cascio singer doesn't refer to a jacket when he sings: 'We can make it burn tonight".



ADKIc3mAnX said:
Even my little nephew spotted the difference between Jason Malachi and Michael Jackson on that audio file.

Those are somethings that made me like MJ more and more to the point that I only listen to him now and not any other artist.
Click to expand...
Hope it's a temporary thing, because, although Michael is one of the best, there are many other great artists which can give you a lot of joy listening to...:chillin: And Michael himself also didn't limit himself to only one artist or genre. He listened to a lot of different artists and styles.
 
Last edited:
Soon we will hear a Cascio song with the lyric "a fist pushing through my ear". MJ was giving us clues.
 
kopwatcher said:
Soon we will hear a Cascio song with the lyric "a fist pushing through my ear". MJ was giving us clues.
Click to expand...

With lyrics such as "stabbed in the back as a matter of fact" and "sucking the air from under me" I wouldn't be surprised.
 
Let's just reflect.........................

[YouTube]oN7HNqFIKpI[/YouTube]
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
With lyrics such as "stabbed in the back as a matter of fact" and "sucking the air from under me" I wouldn't be surprised.
Click to expand...
"we're sucking up the air in the earth from under me". How I find this sentence irritating. He sings it as if he could also sing: "the clouds are in the air, it's so beautiful to me"...yikes. That lyric doesn't go with the melody. JMO.
 
Tracklist of the next album:

1. Weee
2. Burn Tonight
3. Fist In My Ear
4. I Love To Tour
5. Water
6. Black Widow
7. Bathe In The Moonlight
8. L. O. V. E.
 
kopwatcher said:
Tracklist of the next album:

1. Weee
2. Burn Tonight
3. Fist In My Ear
4. I Love To Tour
5. Water
6. Black Widow
7. Bathe In The Moonlight
8. L. O. V. E.
Click to expand...

Bonus track: Salvation Army Tomorrow, Bill (Don't Laugh, You Find Good Stuff)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top