Michael - The Great Album Debate

After I read multiple other articles let me write this

1. It's not perfect - it's not 100% this is acknowledged by everyone. However that doesn't mean it's unusable as well. For example FBI did a fingerprint test - sent the same fingerprints to all crime labs- and the error rate was 23%. So no test is perfect.

As voice does not possess any accurate print, it's even less reliable than fingerprints. I find this error rate of fingerprints quite high actually. Only 77% is accurate then. In the case of a voice it would be even lower than 77%.


4. Interestingly soundalikes portrayed as no problem at all for computer aided testing.

I doubt it. It all depends on the ability of the soundalike.

5. Funnily best soundalikes seem to be family members.

I am not convinced. Someone who's not a family member but has extremely similar body structure (throat, larynx, lungs, etc) could be better soundalike than a family member.

As I wrote before in humans ability to identify voices that mothers cannot differentiate between their sons, family members seem to be harder to distinguish. I would assume family members would have similar physical characteristics therefore harder to differentiate.

Again, in my own experience both my wife and myself recognize the differences in voice of our two sons, even when they cry or when they laugh or sigh. They are both young boys.
 
The best thing to do if more songs are incuded on a future album is to hit them where it hurts. In the pocket. Do not buy it and discourage others from buying it. They lost a huge number in sales on "Michael" so if they didn't learn their lesson then they will get another one.

And as for people saying in the original Breaking News thread that Sony would never do such a thing. They are right. Sony/Epic did not commit a crime and were not involved in fraud.

I wonder just how much worse that thread would have been if the version that Eddie actually submitted to Epic had been heard instead?
 
ivy;3566977 said:
I did not research what musicologists do or use. My search was about humans ability to identify voices. The article had one sentence that said

Voice recognition software is not as reliable as DNA or finger print analysis but it's improving "sophisticated mathematical modeling techniques, and the ability of acoustic engineers to decompose the human voice into a host of different components have led to enormous improvement in voice recognition technology".

when you have mathematical modelling it's generally seen as objective and/or factual.

It might be a field with limited number of experts - such as Dr. Shafer being one of the few people that can do mathematical modelling in his area. American musicological society lists 23 people all PhD in this area.

From one experts website " He is Certified Voice Print analyst and expert using SIS, SoundCleaner, Editracker and Cedar Cambridge Forensic."

again if there's a software or modelling is involved it's generally be seen as objective.



I think "singing voice identification" is an area created on this thread - people act like it must be something different. However singing voice identification doesn't seem to be that different from regular - normal voice identification that has been around for years and years and the same software and procedures for voice identification can be used for "singing" voice identification. It just requires a different expert (musicologist) to use the data to come to a conclusion about the data at hand.

" Someone who listens to music really, really closely. To determine if a recording of a singer's voice is real, audio experts look at elements of the singer's tone, diction, and range. (It's the musical version of what they do when there's a new recording of Osama Bin Laden.) Just as every person has a unique fingerprint, everyone's voice has a distinct timbre, which can be measured by examining the shape of the sound waves it produces and the relative emphases of its overtones. (Whenever you sing a note, you also produce notes&#8212;or overtones&#8212;an octave higher, a fifth above that, and so on. Different voices&#8212;and different instruments&#8212;produce different kinds of overtones.) It's therefore possible to find harmonic differences between two recordings that might not be easily perceptible otherwise. Some singers pronounce words in distinctive ways, too, which yields to side-by-side comparisons. A singer's tone also changes when he's stretching to reach the upper or lower limits of his vocal range. An analyst can therefore tell if the singer's range in one song doesn't match the range in another&#8212;or if it appears that his singing has been digitally modified to be higher or lower. Other sound qualities like vibrato also help authenticate a track."</SPAN>

Let's see the normal voice identification

The feds have audio recordings analyzed by both human experts and machines. Human analysts are very good at doing the kind of thing most people do subconsciously&#8212;telling if someone comes from a particular region by recognizing basic vowel and consonant qualities. For example, a human analyst can tell whether the "Ye" sound in "Yemen" is of the right length and stress for Bin Laden's dialect. The expert would listen to previous recordings of Bin Laden's voice and painstakingly compare words&#8212;syllable by syllable&#8212;to those on the current tape. The feds might also bring in a linguist to verify whether the words on the tape generally match those uttered by someone of Bin Laden's age and educational background.</SPAN>

For a machine analysis, the feds use </SPAN>voice-authentication software, which measures the acoustic qualities of the voice&#8212;pitch, loudness, basic resonances&#8212;that can't be estimated by a human expert</SPAN>. This kind of analysis can produce </SPAN>basic spectrographic information</SPAN> (indicating overall intonation and loudness) or it can look for specific features of the voice, like if Bin Laden's voice was a bit on the nasal side. Voice authentication software is also excellent for</SPAN> cleaning up bad recordings</SPAN>; the latest tape is allegedly very noisy and possibly went down a phone line at some point. Such a system can also tell if different samples of the </SPAN>voice were recorded on different microphones and in different locations.</SPAN>

Once the recording is cleaner, the software can </SPAN>deconstruct each single sound.</SPAN> Every person creates the same sounds using a slightly different set of basic pitches. So, the set of frequencies in Bin Laden's vowels, like those in "ea" from "fear," will be marginally different from anyone else's. By examining</SPAN> this frequency detail for every vowel and comparing them to previous examples by him, a machine analysis can tell if they are the same and were all made by him</SPAN>. In cases where two examples of a word, like "bombing" and "bombing," sound exactly the same to a human expert, a </SPAN>machine can sometimes pick out frequency differences</SPAN> that indicate the words were spoken by two different people.</SPAN>

What if analysts are pretty sure the voice on a tape is Bin Laden's, but want to make sure it hasn't been spliced together from Osama's Greatest Hits? In that case, man and machine would look for tell-tale signs of fraud. The first red flag is any hitch in Bin Laden's timing. It's almost impossible to fake a speaker's rhythm, to make sure every syllable in an utterance matches the overall length and structure of that utterance. So, if the word "Kuwait" were inserted from a previous recording by Bin Laden, it would jar the basic rhythm of the rest of his speech.</SPAN>
</SPAN>

Interesting excerpts! Thanks.</SPAN>

I&#8217;m not suggesting that &#8220;singing voice recognition&#8221; is a completely different discipline from &#8220;speaking voice recognition&#8221;. Nevertheless, it&#8217;s fair to acknowledge that it&#8217;s even more challenging to analyze and identify a singing voice. Human&#8217;s voice is dynamic to begin with. Singing voice is even more so. Many factors can contribute to the change in singing voice, including experience and training. In the first excerpt above, a singer&#8217;s pronunciation and vocal range are mentioned as attributes to be analyzed. Isn&#8217;t it true that a singer can stretch or subtly vary his pronunciation in different songs to better convey his feelings? Michael is known for mis-pronouncing many words. Also, it&#8217;s not unusual for a singer to gain or lose vocal range depending on the efforts he spent throughout the years. Michael could sing lower and deeper while not losing his higher range when he got older. The same could not be said to Whitney Houston. </SPAN>

While singing voice recognition and speaking voice recognition are related, but singing voice recognition is more complicated. The way I speak now and the way I spoke ten years ago is similar. My speaking tone and my speaking rhythm are pretty consistent. However, if I were to take singing lessons and practice rigorously, my singing voice could be very different in 10 years. The way I project my voice could be different. The tone of my voice could be different. My vocal range could be different. </SPAN>


ivy;3566977 said:
This is an assumption that is suggested here but in reality no one knows the margin of error. The article I posted says it's not as reliable as DNA - which has around 99% reliability. For example voice identification could be 80% which would make it less reliable than DNA (19% worse) but it would make it a whole better than human ears (which is around 55%-60% reliability - therefore 20-25% better than humans)

I agree with you that comprehensive systemic voice identification is more reliable than human ears. But, it&#8217;s important to stress that the technology is far from fool proof.

ivy;3566977 said:
you are still mentioning "hearing" which I have already said - in my previous posts - that humans ability is not that good. But if you have a mathematical modelling, or a software or a waveform and so on, it doesn't include bias and subjective approach.
</SPAN>


I believe I mention hearing because I have absolutely no idea what kind of mathematical modeling or software the musicologist utilized to perform. I assume they did use such modeling to aide them form their conclusions.</SPAN>

Many of the frustrations are caused by lack of information. I understand Sony is not obligated to share any additional details. However, more transparency can definitely ease people&#8217;s doubts. Thus far, we don&#8217;t know what Bruce Swedien, whom I have utmost respect to, based his opinion. Only words saying he agreed it&#8217;s Michael from the Estate statement. If people were to ignore their gut feelings, then people appreciate more relevant and direct information in order to &#8220;think&#8221; more accurately. We can ask people to think logically by reasoning that Sony would not engage in fraud, Eddie Cascio is loyal to Michael, no lawsuit against Sony and the Estate re the tracks. Still, there is always something directly related to the songs missing from the equation. Nothing has been said and done to explain why people had such negative and repulsive feelings &#8211; feelings that many still have. </SPAN>


ivy;3566977 said:
The length of people listen to Michael's music is not overlooked. It's just people's ability that is questioned. If you remember the post I had they said people feeling confident about their identification doesn't mean it was right. There was no correlation between confidence and being right.

What I'm meaning is that I can come here and say I'm a legal expert because I have this and that background. However my expert ability should be put into test to see if my information is reliable.

More relevant example was the experiment Pentum did and another recent soundalike being confused as Michael. So if you look to those examples and if you have a group of people that thinks that Michael isn't the vocalist on the Cascio songs and at the same time had a hard time to identify the soundalike or was fooled by the soundalikes then we can conclude that their ability in identification is not that good. So what I'm saying is that "I listen to Michael for 25 years" isn't enough, people should have an established track record and reliability to accept them as "experts".
</SPAN>

Pentum&#8217;s experiment was indeed interesting. I agree with you not all fans are experts. </SPAN>



MJJ7777;3566995 said:
:wild:Its a great book! I read it 3 years ago because it was required reading for all entering freshman at my university. Its definately shaped the way I evaluate things today. Very well suited to the issue being discussed in this thread. Like the quote in my siggy says, sometimes we THINK too much and that gets in the way of the simple and ultimate truth. When I hear these songs side by side with every sound that is authentically Michael, I don't get the same feeling, they just ring fake to me and I don't know why I'm getting this signal but reading Blink would definitely explain why we automatically+ accurately sense some things are just plain WRONG in the time it takes to blink one's eye.
</SPAN>

I highly recommend Gladwell&#8217;s Outliers, which is an even more fascinating read. After reading the book, you&#8217;ll never see success story the same way.

ivy;3567015 said:
I really enjoyed your post about the information about the book but I'm curious and wonder if fans reaction could really named an "intuition" based on the fact that the idea of the vocals might not be authentic had been pre-introduced.

If nothing was said and when the song first streamed and people went "hey hold on a minute this does not sound like Michael" , I would have given a lot more weight to it. But as we have Friedman, TMZ talking about authenticity weeks before the first song release and Jackson's starting tweeting mere hours before it was streamed makes me question the reliability of people's "intuition" and wonder if it can be mainly due to the introduced "bias".
</SPAN>

Yeah&#8230; I wish that the &#8220;bias&#8221; was never introduced to fans. Our intuition can indeed be corrupted by our bias. But still, what gets me wondering is the sheer number of initial repulsive reactions. An overwhelming majority of fans said the song doesn&#8217;t sound like Michael or they couldn&#8217;t make up their minds. Almost no one said in confidence that he/she heard Michael shortly after the song premiere. While it&#8217;s established that people&#8217;s intuition can be influenced by bias, but it&#8217;s stretching to say all who had negative feeling were under influenced (i.e. some fans were truly bias-free or did not know any of the Friedman, TMZ and Taryll tweets.)</SPAN>

Also, Teddy Riley, a highly respected professional before the controversy, disputed all the fake claims before the song premiered. Many fans, myself included, praised Teddy and condemned Taryll. Moreover, we all had a huge desire to hear genuine new Michael Jackson song. We all wanted the song to be good. Could such desire influence our intuition? Could the introduced bias overwhelm our own inherent bias (desire to hear more Michael Jackson)? </SPAN>

P.S: you guys are too fast for me today. i haven't read the latest bumpy/ivy exchange yet.
 
Pentum's experiment proved the same thing the Cascio songs did to the fans: people were fooled by a soundalike.

No one denies that soundalike can fool people. I can understand why people can be fooled by soundalikes. Because their purpose IS either to fool people or simply to sound as close as possible to Michael. No wonder some people got fooled.

Soundalikes -> Michael = people can be fooled.


However the real question remains:
Has any of the fans been fooled by MJ's authentic voice and thought it was a soundalike and not Michael? If it is MJ's voice on the Cascio tracks how come so many fans all of sudden think they hear a soundalike?

Michael -> soundalikes = can Michael fool people?
 
Where did the Breaking News acapella go? Funny, I always thought the acapella sounded more like Michael than the actual released song. Doesn't make much sense, I know, but to this day I hear more Michael in the acapella than I do the album version.
 
If it is MJ's voice on the Cascio tracks how come so many fans all of sudden think they hear a soundalike?

Perhaps because the internet has been plastered with fakes on every corner in recent years.
It's been more than 4 years now since the Malachi plague has infected fans...



Can anyone still remember the song where the Jason dude sings the chorus of "She's Trouble"?
It was labelled as a duet between MJ and Whitney Houston but it was just the annoying Jason dude.
 
Where did the Breaking News acapella go? Funny, I always thought the acapella sounded more like Michael than the actual released song. Doesn't make much sense, I know, but to this day I hear more Michael in the acapella than I do the album version.



:)

Ivy, please delete if it's illegal...
 
Perhaps because the internet has been plastered with fakes on every corner in recent years.
It's been more than 4 years now since the Malachi plague has infected fans...



Can anyone still remember the song where the Jason dude sings the chorus of "She's Trouble"?
It was labelled as a duet between MJ and Whitney Houston but it was just the annoying Jason dude.

What is more likely:

Soundalikes fooling people or MJ fooling his fans?
 
^ first one, of course.

However the Cascio tracks are perceived differently, this has actually nothing to do with fooling. You might think so because you still believe they would be sung by the Jason dude there. ;)



It will be interesting how you will think about this in some years:
Not only do you think that on the one side they would have hired the most prominent soundalike that lots of fans on the forums are used to but on the other side they would have made it impossible to get proven wrong - "the perfect crime". No-one's able to expose the alleged fraud.

The future will not be in favor of the doubters, you'll see.
 
Last edited:
^ first one, of course.

However the Cascio tracks are perceived differently, this has actually nothing to do with fooling. You might think so because you still believe they would be sung by the Jason dude there. ;)

That's my point. Why would MJ's voice fool me?
 
In order to brainwash people you need much more than just a pre-introduced idea. Some people have been raised in different religious backgrounds for years, they don't necessarily share the same ideas at all despite years-long brainwashing education.

I didn't mention brainwash at all. It simply introduced bias and an idea to the minds. To be clear I'm not saying people read Friedman and went "they are fakes for sure" - that would be brainwashing. All I'm saying is that people had "these could be fakes" in the back of their minds when they first listened to the songs. That's all. It wasn't a "Eureka" or "wait I realized something" moment. It was already mentioned as a possibility. I personally approached as "is it Michael or not" when listening to the songs. That's what I'm talking about. It would be a different ball game if fans themselves with no external stimuli questioned these songs.

I do have a problem with them, because despite the doubts they included those songs on an official MJ album.

that's a separate problem. to emphasize they never claimed their research to be fool-proof or 100% correct. You cannot blame them for that.



You missed my point. Musicologists should be able to make clear differences between any voice among 7 billion people without necessarily putting a name on it, just pointing out the differences. But they can't, because waveformats as much as they are neutral could be as much different for one single person as for different people. So it's a dead end to claim that they are 100% sure based on objective research.

again no one is claiming to be 100%. It's again something that you doubters introduced. Even DNA test - which is believed to be the most perfect test - isn't 100%. Nothing is 100%.

Not useless, but helpful knowing that the error is never to be excluded. I didn't call any expert or profession crap. I am drawing attention to the fact that when it comes to voice recognition, if the expert isn't quite familiar with the voice, then he/she could be wrong. Again, all depends on what has been analysed by the experts. How do we know if the experts analysed thoroughly each voice on all 12 tracks? How do we know how familiar those experts are with Michael Jackson's voice? If they are familiar with MJ's voice, then it means they are also familiar with all the voices that they have to analyse, and I really doubt they are familiar with all the voices they analyse.

and again error is always included. We have articles here after each other saying "not perfect but improving", talking about "probabilities". It all addresses the error rate. For example if a test said it's 90% probability that this vocals are Michael, it means that they acknowledge a 10% error rate. No one is denying that. and again I wrote before that's the situation for every test.

Those experts might not be familiar with Michael's voice. That's why the Estate went and asked people who worked with Michael. If you seen my latest note it said the best voice identification is to use objective testing and people familiar with the voice in combination. For Osama CIA did the mathematical tests and then asked people who knew his voice what they thought as well. Similarly Estate hired experts and then held a listening session to ask people who worked with Michael and knew his voice their opinions. That's the best of the two words.


You mention Birchey. Have you read his tweets regarding the voice? Not Michael.

I didn't mention Birchey to discuss his opinions. He is the one that mentioned the protools sessions. By his information leads were separate tracks then the adlibs and grunts and screams. So the doubters have no basis for their assumption that the experts were given an all merged together composite vocal track. Birchey's information also confirms leads to be standalone tracks. That's all.

I suppose you already have raw vocals and/or acapellas of some of MJ's songs. Are they drastically different from the studio album versions?

how many acapellas of MJ has been subjected to tempo change, pitch correction, auto tune and others doing additional vocals in the studio album versions?


Ask yourself this question, who knows Michael Jackson's songs/voice/style/dance/artistry/... better, his long date hardcore fans or one-time hired musicologists?

musicologists do a specified task. People who know Michael's songs, voice, style etc has been achieved by the musicians that worked with Michael such as Bruce Swedien, Matt Forger, Stewart Brawley, Michael Prince, Dr. Freeze and Teddy Riley.


I posted an article and a link of an independent label studio who openly stated that those songs were not Michael. Now, why would other musicologists voice their opinion without being hired? Not everyone in this world is MJ's fan.

which was simply their opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong did that studio do any tests, any comparison? or was it just a studio owner saying it ain't Michael.

As to your question this is Michael Jackson. Any musicologist that could have proven otherwise would have jumped on this to make a name to themselves.

Why do you think Murray's lawyers represented him without being paid for sometime, why do you think Dr.White and other experts jumped to that ship? Because such high profile cases bring recognization to the parties involved. It's not always about money.

Forensic does not have extra knowledge nor extra credentials. Forensics are listed as experts in their domains and as such can work for justice, police, official documents, contracts, etc. Anyone with already acquired credentials and diplomas can become a forensic, you just have to apply for it in your city or local district. The appropriate department attached to Justice or local Tribunal select the applicants. After selection the police pay you a visit in order to check your credibility and to have an idea of where and how you live. After that you go to the police and have to answer all their questions about yourself which they type/record and store in their archives. When/if the application is accepted your name appear on a list of forensics so that you can be contacted by any citizen, company, police or tribunal if necessary. At the same time you can do your usual job with usual clients.

this might be the basics however I don't think FBI or CIA works with anyone who provides such service. I would assume to be considered as "best in the field", these people need to have something extra that they can do. For example we all know that Dr.Shafer is not the only anesthesiologist in the world. Probably there are millions of other anesthesiologist with same knowledge. However he's seen as a leading expert because he can do modeling and he have clinical + educational + academic and so on credentials. I don't think everyone is equal.

@ivy...you talk about the authenticity issue being pre-introduced, but what about the Estate's statement? After that was issued, a lot of people who initially DID NOT hear Michael on BN, we're satisfied that it was him singing after this statement...works both ways...

of course. I always said everyone is biased here. That's another bias and another idea introduced. No one - or at least I'm - not denying that. Still what I say stands. If people on their own with no external stimuli went "Hey hold on a minute" this would have been a completely different thing. Authenticity issue was pre-introduced, then we had statements, comparisons , discussions and so on all influenced the opinions of people. No one is without a bias here.

As voice does not possess any accurate print, it's even less reliable than fingerprints. I find this error rate of fingerprints quite high actually. Only 77% is accurate then. In the case of a voice it would be even lower than 77%.

it doesn't always have 23% error rate. It ranges between 0.01% to 23% based on different research done to determine reliability levels of fingerprinting tests in different situations. It simply shows that no test is perfect yet they can still be used as they are better than the alternative.

Nothing is perfect in real world. And even a 77% true identification is better than chance.


I doubt it. It all depends on the ability of the soundalike.

Well according to that explanations it's not a case of ability, it's a case of physical similarity of the organs involved.


I am not convinced. Someone who's not a family member but has extremely similar body structure (throat, larynx, lungs, etc) could be better soundalike than a family member.

there you have it. You acknowledge that it's not an ability issue but a similar body structure issue. And as it turns out siblings, father/son, mother/daughter etc are the most likely combinations to have similar features.

Again, in my own experience both my wife and myself recognize the differences in voice of our two sons, even when they cry or when they laugh or sigh. They are both young boys.

true identification was 55% in that cases. I think the research - that I posted before - was focused on grown adults.

and here's a quote

I like to consider myself an expert in the voices of my wife and my two daughters. I notice them even in a crowded and noisy room. When one of them telephones me, I instantly recognize her -- but often incorrectly. The one I name is the one I expect, not the one who called. (They find this very amusing.) I don't know if the similarity of their voices is genetic or learned, but I know that others have similar problems. Parents and children tend to sound alike, and that effect is exaggerated when bandwidth is poor, such as in a telephone call or on a cassette recording. In fact, commercial speech recognition software that is "trained" to respond to a particular person's voice often will have a hard time distinguishing the voice of a family member. The more sophisticated systems that intelligence agencies presumably use may of course be less prone to such confusion -- but I suspect that this vulnerability to child and sibling spoofing remains.

I wrote my own experience months ago - my father (and some of my other relatives including my uncle) cannot correctly identify between my mother and me. They would recognize us but often mix us up.
 
[youtube]IWxlfndjoWw[/youtube]


Acapella makes it more obvious it's the same voice:

[youtube]Nv0vn3kM40Y[/youtube]

1.41-1.43 "wha-a-a-ai....." from 'Breaking News' is the same style ad-libs as 2.36-2.38 "hey-yeah..." from 'Runner-up'.

I don't think Michael swings like that...:D

whaay...hey-yeah....whaay.......hey-yeah.....whaaay.....hey-yeah: same style
 
I didn't mention brainwash at all. It simply introduced bias and an idea to the minds. To be clear I'm not saying people read Friedman and went "they are fakes for sure" - that would be brainwashing. All I'm saying is that people had "these could be fakes" in the back of their minds when they first listened to the songs. That's all. It wasn't a "Eureka" or "wait I realized something" moment. It was already mentioned as a possibility. I personally approached as "is it Michael or not" when listening to the songs. That's what I'm talking about. It would be a different ball game if fans themselves with no external stimuli questioned these songs.

Hearing a different voice is not a question of being biased, but brainwashed. No one can make you think you hear someone else based simply on a biased idea. It requires brainwashing.



that's a separate problem. to emphasize they never claimed their research to be fool-proof or 100% correct. You cannot blame them for that.

The result is the same. You don't include tracks on an album if you don't believe it's 100% MJ (or if you try to fool people).





again no one is claiming to be 100%. It's again something that you doubters introduced. Even DNA test - which is believed to be the most perfect test - isn't 100%. Nothing is 100%.

See above.



and again error is always included. We have articles here after each other saying "not perfect but improving", talking about "probabilities". It all addresses the error rate. For example if a test said it's 90% probability that this vocals are Michael, it means that they acknowledge a 10% error rate. No one is denying that. and again I wrote before that's the situation for every test.

First: who said it was 90% accurate?
Second: 90% is not 100%, so the tracks should have stayed in the vault untill they were 100% sure. So far with your 90% vs. 10% statement even the believers are the doubters then.

Those experts might not be familiar with Michael's voice. That's why the Estate went and asked people who worked with Michael. If you seen my latest note it said the best voice identification is to use objective testing and people familiar with the voice in combination. For Osama CIA did the mathematical tests and then asked people who knew his voice what they thought as well. Similarly Estate hired experts and then held a listening session to ask people who worked with Michael and knew his voice their opinions. That's the best of the two words.

Well with error margins no matter how objective the testings are, the result is always tainted with doubt.

I didn't mention Birchey to discuss his opinions. He is the one that mentioned the protools sessions. By his information leads were separate tracks then the adlibs and grunts and screams. So the doubters have no basis for their assumption that the experts were given an all merged together composite vocal track. Birchey's information also confirms leads to be standalone tracks. That's all.

That's like taking a menu in the restaurant, you take things that please you and ignore things that don't please you. Anyway, when mentioning Birchey's discovery, his whole point was that everything was a huge fabrication involving the strong possibility of a soundalike.

how many acapellas of MJ has been subjected to tempo change, pitch correction, auto tune and others doing additional vocals in the studio album versions?

I don't know, but how many times people doubted that voice on the acappelas?

musicologists do a specified task. People who know Michael's songs, voice, style etc has been achieved by the musicians that worked with Michael such as Bruce Swedien, Matt Forger, Stewart Brawley, Michael Prince, Dr. Freeze and Teddy Riley.

Who were pieces of a bigger puzzle. How many of them participated in creating the Cascio songs (except Teddy for the processing part)?


which was simply their opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong did that studio do any tests, any comparison? or was it just a studio owner saying it ain't Michael.

I don't know if they did the analysis. But are you saying they were also influenced by a pre-introduced idea? Wow what effect the 3T have on people's minds! They surely are able to influence a hell lot of people, only thanks to their pre-ntroduced idea. I think you are overestimating the effects of pre-introduced idea and underestimate people ability to have their own opinion. Why would you have an unbiased opinion and all doubters victims of a pre-introduced biased idea?

As to your question this is Michael Jackson. Any musicologist that could have proven otherwise would have jumped on this to make a name to themselves.

Or harm their reputation to be contradicted (by SONY/Estate) knowing that analysis is anyway not a 100% exact science.


this might be the basics however I don't think FBI or CIA works with anyone who provides such service. I would assume to be considered as "best in the field", these people need to have something extra that they can do. For example we all know that Dr.Shafer is not the only anesthesiologist in the world. Probably there are millions of other anesthesiologist with same knowledge. However he's seen as a leading expert because he can do modeling and he have clinical + educational + academic and so on credentials. I don't think everyone is equal.

That's why the appropriate department select their applicants, it's not the applicants that decides if he/she's going to be hired or labeled as forensic. I don't think everyone's equal either, that's why I said a diploma or an official paper doesn't mean equality between experts. Some experts choose not to apply to be forensics, it doesn't mean they're less expert or less knowledgable.




there you have it. You acknowledge that it's not an ability issue but a similar body structure issue. And as it turns out siblings, father/son, mother/daughter etc are the most likely combinations to have similar features.

Well yes and no. Everything depends on the transmission of genes.
 
From Forensic Examiner magazine , interview with Tom Owen - CHS-III, member of ACFEI's Executive Advisory Board for the American Board for Certification in Homeland Security and the Chair of the American Board of Recorded Evidence

Does a person's voice change?

Yes, after puberty. Once you reach maturity your voice stays the same, and then if things change it's because you did something--you had an operation, got sick, had a lung removed. For instance, take Winston Churchill, who was a heavy cigar-smoker and drinker for at least 50 years of his life. If you compare his spectrograms from his 20s to those from his 70s saying the same words, there's a huge difference. It didn't make his voice unidentifiable, but the structure, format and pitch changed.


Please walk us through the basic steps you would follow in analyzing an audio recording for voice identification.


Normally you receive the tape from the prosecutor or a defense team and check it to make sure it's not physically damaged, take pictures of it, make sure it hasn't been spliced and that somebody didn't spill a Coke on it. Then you play it into a computer from a specialized recorder playback device that keeps constant tension on the tape. The computer lets you know that the tape is running at the speed at which it was initially recorded. Many times tapes are made on recorders that are running off-speed, and you compensate for that.

Next you critically listen to the tape, listening for things that are indigenous to the voice. We call them oral cues and visual cues Then there are other unique factors that might be relative to a particular voice (i.e., someone who sniffs all the time or has a sinus problem--we call it "snorking"--or someone who's always clearing his or her throat).

Then we look at a spectrogram for the visual cues. A spectrogram is just a visual representation of time, energy and frequency. Time is fixed at 2.2 seconds, energy is the amplitude and the frequency is set by the machine--we can go up to 8 kilohertz or 8000 cycles per second. A hertz is a vibration. For example, cycles per second refers to the vibrations of our vocal chords. Our vocal chords make sounds by vibrating and pushing air through these vocal chords from the diaphragm and the esophagus, and our articulators format the words. By recording vibrations, a spectrogram can create a visual representation of a voice.

When we've loaded the tape, we're looking on a computer at spectrograms. To do a comparison of an unknown voice and the voice of the person who you suspect is on the tape, you have to make a short-term memory tape. Up to this point we've been looking at the unknown tape. Now we're going to take an exemplar of a voice, the voice you're comparing to the unknown voice.

For example, I had a recent case where "Annie" got a job that was promised to another woman. That woman was mad and called Annie up and said "You dirty ... son of a so and so. I should have gotten that job. You didn't deserve it; you were sleeping with the boss." This would be your example of the unknown voice, and all the steps I've told you about have been taken with the unknown voice.

Now the company plays the tape around the office and people say, "That sounds like 'Mary Jo.'" So they go to Mary Jo and she says, "Well, it's not me, and I'm willing to take a voice exemplar." I get Mary Jo on the phone and ask her to say the same thing, in exactly the same manner that is on the unknown tape. Then I go through this whole process with her tape (the known sample) with the oral and visual cues. Next I'll make a short-term memory tape, which allows us to compare short phrases from the two tapes back to back. The unknown tape will say "I should have gotten the job." Then Mary Jo will say "I should have gotten the job," and then the next phrases and so on for about 10 phrases. At the end you have a large sample of verbatim speech, the unknown next to the known. In listening to it, you can tell if the voices sound the same or different. Then you do the spectrograms of the known and unknown, of just the phrases you're going to use for your sample. Now you compare the two--do they sound the same, do they look the same? If it looks the same and sounds the same, it is the same. For example, if it sounds the same but doesn't look the same, that's an indication that it may be a sound-alike voice, bur it may not be the same person.

Are you saying that where the human ear might be fooled, the spectrogram will reveal the truth?

Right. For example, when it looks like the same person but it doesn't sound at all like the same person, then you have to be wary of the exemplar recording and wonder if you actually used the exact same words spoken in the same manner The experience of the examiner comes into play, because if you get on the phone with someone and tell him or her to say, "There's a bomb in the building," and he or she says, "There's a bomb in the building," that's not good enough, because that's going to skew your result. The individual must say the words exactly the way you direct him or her to say them.

Do you have to authenticate audio recordings for voice identification?

That's something different. Usually that's when someone says, "Yes, that's my voice on the tape, but that's not the conversation we had. You edited the tape. "To verify that, there's a process in which you have to do an authenticity examination. These are the steps: critical listening, waveform analysis, magnetic development, tape enhancement, spectrum analysis, phase continuity and speed fluctuation and voice identification. should it be necessary.

The way most people splice together multiple conversations is that they take two tape recorders and go back and forth to get the conversation the way they want it, and then they make a copy of that tape. We would be able to determine and discover all of this.

With computers, this process can be more difficult because people create the tape they want, load it into a computer, cut out all the stopping and starting signatures and try to paste together that way. That's more difficult to analyze and more difficult to arrive at a conclusive determination of whether it has been edited or not. However, creating such a tape requires special knowledge, equipment and software.

Is voice identification more of an art or a science?

I think it's both. The art part of it is getting a good exemplar and making a good short-term memory tape. The science part is that the machine makes a spectrogram from what you give it. When deciding, "Yes it is this person," or "No it's not," that's when your expertise comes in. The human analyst and the computer technology are equally important.

How reliable is voice identification?

It is extremely reliable if you good samples, meaning good recordings and a good number of words, at least 20. It is very reliable with the best samples. While it's always going to be reliable, your opinion is going to determine how strong your reliability is. In other words, there are several possible results: positive, probable, possible, etc. Each delineation has its own standards.

I understand that the government used a computer program to analyze the same bin Laden tape. Should we trust voice identification performed solely by a computer?

No, in my opinion you can't eliminate the expert. There are many studies done with just a computer spitting out a spectogram--this what biometrics is all about. Biometrics is a science where you identify people from a large pool, looking at voices, eyes, eye retinas, whatever. Biometrics is used a lot in government, and you see it in movies all the time. The problem with the voice is it's too dynamic. Because of this biometrics doesn't work very well, especially with forensic tapes, meaning bad tapes.

When I was on the news with the Osama bin Laden tapes, there were people who called in and said, "I thought the government has this program where they can throw one voice in among 150 and it spits out with 99% accuracy who the voice is." Well, those programs work fine if you're dealing with perfect tapes. But in the forensic community, very seldom do you get perfect tapes. That's where you have to rely on your skills and experience as an examiner, because there is no "throw it in the hopper and it comes out right" answer. Biometrics doesn't work with bad forensic tapes, and the bin Laden recording was a poor recording. That's why the government was hedging on coming out and saying it was or was not bin Laden. They knew that the biometrics could fool them. 1 came out on Thursday with my opinion, and they came out the following Monday. We came to the same opinion, but they kept stalling the press, and that's why the press came to me.

Would you tell me about a few of your most interesting and challenging cases?

For most people that usually means celebrity cases. I did the Woody Allen and Mia Farrow trial, which was a video authenticity case. Julio Eglasias was an audio authenticity case; Mariah Carey was an audio authenticity case. I did the Osama bin Laden case and a couple of Mob cases. There have been others that have involved huge amounts of money, and some of the most interesting ones I can't talk about because I had to sign non-disclosure agreements.


VOICE IDENTIFICATION: THE AURAL SPECTROGRAPHIC METHOD

Steps for Voice ID Case Procedure

1. Receive, mark and photograph evidence tapes, recorders and containers.

2. Physical inspection, tape inspection, lot number, condition.

3. Track configuration Mono or Stereo, 1 or 2, control track, etc.

4. Azimuth and Zenith alignment on lab recorder.

5. Playback speed analysis and adjustment.

6. Load into computer for electronic enhancement.

7. Critical listening and notes.

8. Create "unknown" word and phrase list.

9. Take verbatim exemplar and create known "best" word list and phrases,

10. Create an audio unknown/known short term memory tape for aural comparison.

11. Do the Visual comparison of the spectrograms of the unknown/known ST phrases.

12. Analyze the results and form conclusions, offer an opinion. Write report

13. Write to an archive file, make copies and send report to client with original materials (FedEx or Certified Mail). Include all Rule 26 requirements.

Voice ID Criteria

With special thanks to Sgt. Lonnie Smrkovski, Michigan State Police (Ret.)

Aural Cues

1. Perceived pitch (eg: voice sounds high or low).

2. Quality (eg: street talk vs. educated speech).

3. Rate (how fast or slow a person speaks).

4. Mannerisms (eg: Someone who speaks last and then slows down at the end of a sentence. Eg: "Sopranos" guys who end every sentence with "forget-about-it.").

5. Amplitude (how loud someone speaks).

6. Pathologies (eg: a harelip, a lisp or a stutter).
7. Breath patterns.

8. Dialect/accent.

9. Syllable coupling (the way we put the word s together when we speak).

Visual Cues

1. Bandwidth.

2. Mean frequency (vibrations of the vocal chords per second; average male has a mean frequency 130 cycles per second and average female is 150-160).

3. Trajectory of formants (on a spectrogram the formants are shapes that represent the vocal energy of the words that we're speaking, and our voices).

4. Inter-formant information/intra-formant.

5. Fricatives ("ch" sounds).

6. Plosives ("P" sounds).

7. Gaps (refers to syllable couplings, how we put words together when we speak).

8. Consonants have a distinctive look and shape on a spectrogram).

9. Transitions between consonants and vowels.

10. Transition between words.

11. Rate (average number of words spoken per minute).

12. Pitch.

13. Distribution.

14 Nasal patterns distribution.

15. Evidence of pathology (e.g., nasality, lisp, etc.).

16. Relative intensity.

17. Other spectral data.

TENANTS AUDIO AUTHENTICITY

1. Recording device was capable.

2. Operator was competent to operate the device.

3. The recording is authentic and correct.

4. Changes, additions or deletions have not been made in the recording.

5. The recording has been preserved in a manner shown to the court.

6. The speakers are identified.

7. The conversation elicited was made voluntarily and in good faith without any kind of inducement.

Basic Methodology

1. Receive evidence, photograph tapes, recorders and containers, punch tabs.

2. Physical inspection, tape inspection, run lot number, condition.

3. Track configuration, develop for tracks.

4. Azimuth and Zenith alignment on lab/evidence rercorder, speed adjustment.

5. Critical listening for things like ticks and pops and what appears to be stops and over-recordings, slurred words, speed changes, etc.).

6. Waveform analysis (way to verify the things you've heard in the listening process), load into computer, from lab and original recorder (16Bit/44.1 sample rate minimum).

7. Spectrum analysis, FFT (looking in the time and frequency domain to learn certain things about the tape, about the noise on the tape, about the signatures on the tape, electronic information about everything that happens on that tape).

8. Magnetic development (put a Freon-based ionized-particle solution on the tape to develop the signatures). When you start a tape recorder the heads go up and touch the tape and leave a signature, like a fingerprint, that's indigenous to that tape recorder. When you stop it the tape heads pull away and demagnetize, leaving a signature.

9. Record test recordings for comparison.

10. Note all signal anomalies, print waveforms together with the magnetic prints of transients and signatures, spectrograms if applicable--evidence tape and recorder. Compare.

11. Write report of your findings. Authentic or not. Conform to Rule 26 of the Federal Code for Expert Witness Opinion.

12. Make an archive copy of all your findings and send the report and the original materials, including all the Rule 26 requirements, to the attorney through FedEx or Certified Mail.
 
Like a fingerprint, every voice is unique and characteristic of the instrument that creates it.

In analyzing the latest audiotaped message purported to be from Osama bin Laden, investigators can use voice verification systems that compare phrases and words to matching ones in previous recordings.

The programs search for obvious and subtle trademarks of a person's vocal instrument as well as trace commonly used words, intonations and patterns of speech. Although experts say voice identification can never be as exact as DNA or fingerprints or even iris identification, it's a technology that has become more accurate in recent years.

"Your voice is nothing more than signals," explains Jordan Byk of VeriVoice, a voice verification company in Princeton, N.J. "A machine breaks down these signals and measures your individual physiology and how sound passes through it."

Parts of Speech

To identify a person's so-called voiceprint, a computer breaks down the sounds of speech into tiny components. Voiced sounds, unvoiced sounds and plosive sounds make up the basic components of speech sounds.

Voiced sounds &#8212; like "aah" &#8212; are produced by the vibration of our vocal cords when air is exhaled from the lungs. This vibration produces a wave audio output that is passed through and manipulated by the vocal tract and then radiated at the lips.

Unvoiced sounds &#8212; like the letter "f" &#8212; are made mostly by the hissing of a steady air stream through the mouth. The vocal cords don't vibrate during these sounds and they can be distinguished by factors like air pressure and tone.


Plosive sounds, like the letter "p" in stupid, are made by completely closing the vocal tract and building up pressure behind the tract and then abruptly releasing it.

Because every person's mouth, larynx and nasal cavities are unique, each utterance they make is also unique. Also, the way people use their muscles when creating sound is imprinted in the voice and can be identified by a computer.

Comparing Voiceprints

Analysts studying bin Laden's voiceprint will be tracing computerized "wave forms" that represent the frequency, cadence, tone, pitch and volume of the voice. These traits are plotted onto a color-coded topographical map.

To identify his voice, they will likely use a topographical profile of his voice from previous recordings. The program will then break down the voice components in the new recording, compare it with the model and calculate the probability that it's a match.

Although voice verification technology has accelerated in recent years, some argue it still a technology with significant weaknesses.

"It's can't discriminate as well as other kinds of verification like an iris scan or fingerprint," says James Glass, a spoken language expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Every time you talk, your voice changes depending on the environment, your mood or if you're sick or stressed."

Others point out that variables like the way a tape was recorded and the quality of the tape can skew results and that people can often be better at recognizing recorded voices.

ABCNEWS correspondent John Miller, one of the few American journalists to ever interview bin Laden, said the voice on the new tape "certainly sounds like bin Laden, not a crudely edited tape." Yossef Bodansky, author of The Man Who Declared War on America, a book about bin Laden, said there's no doubt in his mind the tape is authentic.

"It is his language. It is his dialect. It's his voice," Bodansky said.

No matter how certain people may be, Byk argues, final verification should rest on technology.

"When a person hears a voice, they automatically associate it with a familiar voice and then reinforce that memory," he said. "Computers don't have that issue. It's almost impossible to fool a computer."

-------------

researchers built a computer model of Bin Laden's voice, based on an hour of genuine recordings. Using voice recognition systems being developed for banking security, they tested the model against 20 known recordings of Bin Laden. The system correctly identified his voice in 19 of them.

This meant there was only a 5% risk of error in their conclusion

----------------------------------

Officials said the more definitive judgment was the result of an accumulation of evidence that was all pointing in the same direction, ranging from the opinions of linguists and translators at the C.I.A. and N.S.A. and Qaeda detainees familiar with Mr. bin Laden's voice, as well as a digital analysis of the tape that indicated it had not been altered.

"At this point, there is no evidence to indicate and no reason to believe that the tape was manufactured or altered," an intelligence official said.

The technical analysis included the use of voiceprint matching, which consists of electronically comparing past samples of Mr. bin Laden's voice with the voice on the audiotape. Officials said that the voiceprint was not a 100 percent match, but that it came close.

------------------------------

Each person's voice makes a distinctive pattern of audio waves based on how the sound comes through the throat, nose and mouth, and on the shape and tension of the vocal cords. Although the pattern is not different enough to allow identification as reliable as a fingerprint, it does make imitating someone else's voice precisely almost impossible.

Experts said the sheer volume of recorded statements that bin Laden has released should make good raw material for voice identification software, giving technicians at the Department of Defense an edge in making out the voice on the new tape.

The analysis still may not show whether bin Laden is alive--for example, the task could be stymied if the recording consists of patched-together words taken from bin Laden's recordings. But the computer programs should be able to tell whether the voice is bin Laden's or just a skilled mimic's, said Bradley Horowitz, chief technology officer at Virage Inc., a California company that supplies audio and video analysis software to federal intelligence and law-enforcement agencies.

"This is the best-case scenario, where we're matching a long audio snippet against a well-established library of other utterances," Horowitz said. He said the reliability of such an analysis could be "in the high 90s."

Although voice mimics may do an uncannily good job by human standards, computer programs usually can rule out such trickery by looking at the voiceprint pattern.

"Even if Rich Little is doing an imitation of Nixon, he might get the phrasing and intonations right, but the actual spectrum of someone's voice is very hard to replicate," Horowitz said.

Someone determined to fake an audiotape could use digital techniques to stitch together words and sentences the person had uttered, experts said. But that would require sophisticated computer work that is tedious, time-consuming and expensive--comparable to the effort that goes into a computer-generated movie, Horowitz said.

Even if the tape were stitched together, human analysts have ways of telling whether speech is natural. They can look for distinctive intonation, phrasing and how often the speaker uses certain words to conclude whether the voice was processed or came from a natural conversation.
 
Page 30. Initial reactions very interesting, especially from MJJC team.

Notice that the only reason why people believe it's him singing is because of the "Sony wouldn't do that" argument.
That's not true I believe it's him because I hear him on the all the released Cascio tracks.

Note: I don't comment on the other Cascio songs yet until they release since leaks are pretty much stolen MJ songs.
 
I realize no one is probably reading the long article excepts but the more I read these tests seems more reliable than they were portrayed and not that easily fooled by soundalikes.
 
I wish i didnt enter to relive that feeling again
OMg God I almost forgot how that went down. That is the saddest thread with 29 pages of estatic fans waiting to finally hear Michael again so high and happy and then its like someone came along and hit them in the head with a baseball bat once they heard the song . fans were in a daze confused angry upset and I was hysterical. we didnt hear Michael. this was fans honest reactions and mine too. We didnt hear Michael. That was so sad but LOL at my initial reaction - I went off and set my font to large to say it. I had no preconceived idea it wouldnt be him. I was in shock and then in tears .. like many.. We didnt distort the songs. Its not our fault they sound foreign to us and will alway sound foreign to our ears so that we cant enjoy them ..:unsure:

Ive changed my stance since then in that I think parts are Michael
but that doesnt change the distorted sound of the songs. Even if it is Michael they messed him up beyond recognition for our ears. I have to strain to try and hear him and figure out which parts are Michael which parts are Porte or some other singer. That isnt right ..its sucks - How can that be enjoyable.
I never knew you were a doubter...
 
The best thing to do if more songs are incuded on a future album is to hit them where it hurts. In the pocket. Do not buy it and discourage others from buying it. They lost a huge number in sales on "Michael" so if they didn't learn their lesson then they will get another one.

And as for people saying in the original Breaking News thread that Sony would never do such a thing. They are right. Sony/Epic did not commit a crime and were not involved in fraud.

I wonder just how much worse that thread would have been if the version that Eddie actually submitted to Epic had been heard instead?

It seems to be the other way around in my opinion. If they really did check with Jason's people and did those voice tests like they said they did, they must have known something wasn't right. And they still put the songs on the album. And if they include any more of those songs on a future album knowing the reaction, I'd say they know very well what they're doing....and I sure won't be buying it.
 
Ivy, thanks for the article. It's very informative. Do you know anything about the Julio Eglasias and Mariah Carey authenticity cases that Tom Owen mentioned? I'm interested to know what the cases are about and how he utilized the methods and procedures on singing voice. I'd imagine it's more challenging. The aural cues listed by Sgr. Smrkovski are mostly not applicable. For instance, how can you tell one's mannerism, amplitude, speech quality and rate in singing?

Thanks for the research! This is getting interesting. You are absolutely right. I may have underestimated the capability of voice recognition. Obviously, there are a lot in the field that I don't know about.

Note: I don't comment on the other Cascio songs yet until they release since leaks are pretty much stolen MJ songs.

Have you heard Blue Gangsta, DYKWYCA and STTR? If so, do you have problem commenting on those songs, which are also stolen MJ songs.
 
How on earth is it possible the experts/wave format analysis didn't notice the 't' in 'wanting' (wan'in a piece of Michael Jackson) in Breaking News and another 't' in 'waiting' (she never thought she'd be here wai'in on me) in 'Stay' is missing ?:bugeyed. It's obvious to me they never examined Breaking News and Stay. Michael always pronounced the 't' in those kinds of words. Maybe not always clear, but never like the Cascio singer (totally skipping it).

Maybe they heard only Michaels background vocals (if he recorded those for whatever reason, could be he's in there in some songs). Maybe that's what the Estate calls raw material or lead vocals. If only the background vocals were on that tape (?), then these automatically become lead vocals, right?
 
How on earth is it possible the experts/wave format analysis didn't notice the 't' in 'wanting' (wan'in a piece of Michael Jackson) in Breaking News
I was going to post about exactly the same part. I thought I'd give the BN acapella another go when it was posted, but that part just completely stuck out like a sore thumb. It sounds like a white man singing. The differences are so clear, I'm fairly convinced that there was no "analysis" performed. If there was, it was crap.
 
Ivy, thanks for the article. It's very informative. Do you know anything about the Julio Eglasias and Mariah Carey authenticity cases that Tom Owen mentioned? I'm interested to know what the cases are about and how he utilized the methods and procedures on singing voice. I'd imagine it's more challenging. The aural cues listed by Sgr. Smrkovski are mostly not applicable. For instance, how can you tell one's mannerism, amplitude, speech quality and rate in singing?

Thanks for the research! This is getting interesting. You are absolutely right. I may have underestimated the capability of voice recognition. Obviously, there are a lot in the field that I don't know about.

those cases might not be related to singing. I have found several plagiarism lawsuits against Mariah Carey and in one of them Tommy Mottola and Randy Hoffman (his partner) had wore a hidden tape recorder to record a witness. Apparently that tape was used in court , he might be mentioning that.
 
And like the song Water, I also have a strong feeling Burn Tonight could've been written after and/or inspired by TII (Michael saying "Let it burn" in Beat it), because these exact same words are sung in Burn tonight. What a coincidence.
 
Back
Top