Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Grent]

Erased everything else. Everything that was not used.
That's at least what he meant.

They claim my uncle was so happy with the performance he instructed them to delete all the other files. I had the honor to learn and watch my uncle record my entire life and that is NOT how he worked. No outtakes, no other tracks, no backups, no proof. roughly 10 songs they turned in… same story for all of them. I asked for the computer it was created on... they said it broke. I asked for the original hard drive... they said it was destroyed. One dubious excuse after another.

I can't imagine why Taryll would make that up. Of course - everything is possible. But I see no sense in that.


I'm also curious about the pan thing!

 

[ivy]

Erased everything else. Everything that was not used.
That's at least what he meant.

I understood like he meant there was only one track and no other tracks as they were erased. however Birchey said there were multiple tracks.

If you question the validity of a professional photo you can ask the photographer for more pictures from that photo shoot. If it is authentic the photographer will turn over different shots. Some with different poses, some even with eyes closed. I questioned the validity of the vocal's on "breaking news" and several other songs of theirs that I've heard and they told me no other takes or tracks exist. They claim my uncle was so happy with the performance he instructed them to delete all the other files.

see what I'm saying? It seems like he says it's one take / one track - it doesn't go with the multiple track composite leads.

also see this

I was at the studio when these questionable files were delivered. I heard these "so-called" Michael Jackson songs raw and without the distraction of the well produced music by Teddy Riley.

he also acknowledges that "raw" versions exists.

 

[StellaJackson]

Multiple takes were used to make the songs but once they were put together all the unused ones were erased. That is what Taryll was told, or at least what we can summise based on what he said. Of course it is highly unlikely that anyone would actually erase a bunch of MJ vocals. They would only say that if there was something in the takes that they didn't want people to hear.

The reason I was asking about the pan thing was because I was going through all the old posts from Birchey, which contain some extremely interesting and important insights, and I was curious about this comment:

"And this is the biggy, there are 2 vocals tracks at the end of "Water" named "MJTelephone" & "MJTelephonenopan" which are clearly 2 different takes of the same line, whilst the rest of the song is primarily made from the vocal "MJLd" meaning "Michael Jackson Lead Vocals" now if the whole thing was telephone vocals why differentiate between the 2?

one thing about both the "telephone" and "lead" vocal that works in favour of the Cascio tracks is that they are both heavily clipped, I belive this is the only track which they are clipped. Yet one track of backing vocals is also clipped, abnother is not, and another is a "ghost" which means someone else singing too."

 

[Grent]

I understood like he meant there was only one track and no other tracks as they were erased. however Birchey said there were multiple tracks.

There must be multiple tracks since some are overlapping. He could not possibly have sung that in one take. Taryll as well as Birchey know enough about music production. They both know there are several takes.

he also acknowledges that "raw" versions exists.

He explains what he means with raw: acapella.
Edit: I was wrong (the word 'and' in Tarylls statement indicates it). I guess he means acapella and without effects on the vocals, probably like compression and reverb.

So this is, what Eddie gave to Teddy.

 

[ivy]

The reason I was asking about the pan thing was because I was going through all the old posts from Birchey, which contain some extremely interesting and important insights, and I was curious about this comment:

you made it sound like such an urgent thing.

so what insights did we get from it?

"And this is the biggy, there are 2 vocals tracks at the end of "Water" named "MJTelephone" & "MJTelephonenopan" which are clearly 2 different takes of the same line, whilst the rest of the song is primarily made from the vocal "MJLd" meaning "Michael Jackson Lead Vocals" now if the whole thing was telephone vocals why differentiate between the 2?

so they have a line that they modified (pitch , delay etc) and they panned or doubled. I think it's a very common thing to do. and "whole thing telephone vocals" is Birchey's assumption. The naming alone differentiates them as lead and phone IMO.

What significance does it have?

one thing about both the "telephone" and "lead" vocal that works in favour of the Cascio tracks is that they are both heavily clipped, I belive this is the only track which they are clipped. Yet one track of backing vocals is also clipped, abnother is not, and another is a "ghost" which means someone else singing too."

isn't this also the same thing that he mentioned some takes were too loud? I don't know anyone else but such things to me show that these were inferior recordings, the engineer wasn't that good and so on. I have never experienced such in a professional recording.

so what is the insight that we got from all those?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

When I read all the comments by Birchey, and now the re-discussion and when I compare it to the claim that the reason why the Cascio tracks were included on the album (because they're the most finished ones?! duh! loool! wasn't that Roger Friedman who said that?), there is a big problem in some people's minds regarding the concept of "most finished tracks".

 

[MJPhillip]

MJDHF warning from Sony over leaking Cascio songs

mjdiehardfan.com Mj forum, Has been warmed by Sony lawyer and websheriff about The cascio songs. The member who leaked those songs has been sued,
And they removed the whole Multimedia section without the admin knowledge.
Mad!!!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Given your reputation, I see no option but to believe you.

Before I think you lie, I rather think you're dumb.

Now we're two

 

[ivy]

When I read all the comments by Birchey, and now the re-discussion and when I compare it to the claim that the reason why the Cascio tracks were included on the album (because they're the most finished ones?! duh! loool! wasn't that Roger Friedman who said that?), there is a big problem in some people's minds regarding the concept of "most finished tracks".

I think people have a different idea about what is "finished". For example I was at Max Jax reading about Joe Vogel's comments that probably "shut up and dance" will not be released because there's so little vocals are recorded. I think Cascio songs might have been considered as "finished" by Friedman as they have full leads recorded. I don't see that "finished" comments as "ready to be released".

There must be multiple tracks since some are overlapping. He could not possibly have sung that in one take. Taryll as well as Birchey know enough about music production. They both know there are several takes.

so then why Taryll is complaining? like a photographer can show multiple pictures, he was give multiple takes. what more does he want?

 

[StellaJackson]

I think people have a different idea about what is "finished". For example I was at Max Jax reading about Joe Vogel's comments that probably "shut up and dance" will not be released because there's so little vocals are recorded. I think Cascio songs might have been considered as "finished" by Friedman as they have full leads recorded. I don't see that "finished" comments as "ready to be released".



so then why Taryll is complaining? like a photographer can show multiple pictures, he was give multiple takes. what more does he want?

Because what Taryll, and others, asked for are the out takes ie the takes that weren't used. Essentially what we call "work tapes". All Taryll heard are the versions of the songs as we know them. He didn't get to hear any of the work tapes because he was told they had deleted them to make space on the hard drive. Then he was told the computer was broken. Clearly they contain something that they don't want people hearing.

 

[ivy]

Because what Taryll, and others, asked for are the out takes ie the takes that weren't used. Essentially what we call "work tapes".

I'm curious how many takes do you expect a person to record for a demo seriously? 2,5, 10, 20, 50?

perhaps he recorded only 2-3 takes and all of them were used in someway.

Clearly they contain something that they don't want people hearing.

didn't you ever lie to make a person to go away? such as "the dog ate my homework", "I don't have it", "It got lost" etc..

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Ok I get it, Taryll the devil is lying (because he's a part of the greedy Jackson family), and Eddie the angel is telling the truth (because he's a part of the Cascio family), hell, why should I care what my ears hear.

 

[StellaJackson]

I'm curious how many takes do you expect a person to record for a demo seriously? 2,5, 10, 20, 50?

perhaps he recorded only 2-3 takes and all of them were used in someway.



didn't you ever lie to make a person to go away? such as "the dog ate my homework", "I don't have it", "It got lost" etc..

Who says these songs are demos? This is not like any demo Michael has ever recorded. The vocalist is going full out. And it is clear that they had a lot of different takes to choose from meaning that there are indeed others. Otherwise they would have just told Taryll that everything was used so there is nothing else to hear

 

[ivy]

Ok I get it, Taryll the devil is lying (because he's a part of the greedy Jackson family), and Eddie the angel is telling the truth (because he's a part of the Cascio family), hell, who cares what my ears hear.

well I didn't say that did I? On the contrary I said perhaps Taryll wasn't told everything because simply they wanted him to get lost.

That "there were no other takes" versus " there are multiple takes" is conflicting IMO. And I personally wouldn't expect Michael to record tens of takes for 12 demo songs over 4 months. It's not realistic. I remember for one song Birchey said the lead was combination of 2 takes and had 1 back vocals. That's 3 takes already. How many more do you expect for a demo / guide vocals that wouldn't be used in the final release?

 

[StellaJackson]

well I didn't say that did I? On the contrary I said perhaps Taryll wasn't told everything because simply they wanted him to get lost.

That "there were no other takes" versus " there are multiple takes" is conflicting IMO. And I personally wouldn't expect Michael to record tens of takes for 12 demo songs over 4 months. It's not realistic. I remember for one song Birchey said the lead was combination of 2 takes and had 1 back vocals. That's 3 takes already. How many more do you expect for a demo / guide vocals that wouldn't be used in the final release?

But it has never been stated by anyone on the Cascio end that these songs are demos. And Birchey stated that one song was comprised of 12 different takes. It wasn't just taryll that asked about the work tapes. It was asked in the listening session and the excuse that the computer was broken was stated there. And where has this idea of 4 months come from? Michael was there for 9 weeks. And even that wasn't a continuous stay. He spent time in New York as well.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

well I didn't say that did I? On the contrary I said perhaps Taryll wasn't told everything because simply they wanted him to get lost.

That "there were no other takes" versus " there are multiple takes" is conflicting IMO. And I personally wouldn't expect Michael to record tens of takes for 12 demo songs over 4 months. It's not realistic. I remember for one song Birchey said the lead was combination of 2 takes and had 1 back vocals. That's 3 takes already. How many more do you expect for a demo / guide vocals that wouldn't be used in the final release?

What's not realistic is the voice itself.

Why would they try to get rid of Taryll? Did he do anything bad? He simply wanted to hear more to be convinced, nothing more. You don't get rid of people when they ask you such things, do you?

 

[StellaJackson]

What's not realistic is the voice itself.

Why would they try to get rid of Taryll? Did he do anything bad? He simply wanted to hear more to be convinced, nothing more. You don't get rid of people when they ask you such things, do you?

There are just too many oddities, bizarre coincidences and lack of supporting evidence to suggest that Michael was involved in these songs. And that's before we even get to the vocals.

 

[ivy]

Who says these songs are demos? This is not like any demo Michael has ever recorded. The vocalist is going full out. And it is clear that they had a lot of different takes to choose from meaning that there are indeed others. Otherwise they would have just told Taryll that everything was used so there is nothing else to hear

roger friedman - who you love to quote for "most finished songs" - called it "guide vocals".

Estate statement calls it "demo" - vocals we heard on the Cascio songs, which were basically in demo format

dominic Cascio says - that is a glimpse of what he was still working on - hence a demo

so you are the one who in his own mind creates and expectation and standard for these songs. everyone saying they are demo/ guide vocals.

And it is clear that they had a lot of different takes to choose from meaning that there are indeed others.

speculation. yes they might have a few takes and they might have used ALL of them in the final work. It doesn't mean that there's more than they used.

 

[ivy]

But it has never been stated by anyone on the Cascio end that these songs are demos.

see dominic cascio quote.

also frank cascio in his book says Eddie and Michael would record the songs in London - again it shows that those were demos/guides and never intended for a final release.

And Birchey stated that one song was comprised of 12 different takes.

again how many more takes do you expect? Taryll was going on "a photographer can show you multiple pictures" , so he was shown 12 takes. What more did he ask for?

It wasn't just taryll that asked about the work tapes. It was asked in the listening session and the excuse that the computer was broken was stated there

how do you know that discussion happened in the listening session. it could have been another meeting. Taryll clearly says he was in the studio when they were delivered. and Taryll and Cory Rooney are the only 2 person that's denying the Estate statement about the listening session. No one else came forward, interesting right?

And where has this idea of 4 months come from? Michael was there for 9 weeks. And even that wasn't a continuous stay. He spent time in New York as well.

frank cascio says he stayed for 4 months in NJ in his book - didn't you read it?. And even your 9 weeks with NY as well , I'll again ask how many takes do you expect him to be able to do in that time period? and more importantly why would anyone record the same demo over and over again in a home basement studio? what would be the motive and logic in that?

"oh look there's a bathroom, I'll go in the shower and record 15 takes that are clipped" really?

Why would they try to get rid of Taryll? Did he do anything bad? He simply wanted to hear more to be convinced, nothing more. You don't get rid of people when they ask you such things, do you?

I guess you don't follow Estate related matters right? News Flash Jacksons and Estate doesn't get along and they do keep each other out. Due to all the events it's probable that Estate doesn't see them as legit concerns but more like problem creation perhaps?

edited to add: In case you don't know Katherine Jackson's lawyers spent months trying to get one of the 3T to be an executor on the Estate. There seems to be bad blood in there.

 

[StellaJackson]

see dominic cascio quote.

also frank cascio in his book says Eddie and Michael would record the songs in London - again it shows that those were demos/guides and never intended for a final release.



again how many more takes do you expect?




how do you know that discussion happened in the listening session. it could have been another meeting. Taryll clearly says he was in the studio when they were delivered.



frank cascio says he stayed for 4 months in NJ in his book - didn't you read it?. And even your 9 weeks with NY as well , I'll again ask how many takes do you expect him to be able to do in that time period?




I guess you don't follow Estate related matters right? News Flash Jacksons and Estate doesn't get along and they do keep each other out. Due to all the events it's probable that Estate doesn't see them as legit concerns but more like problem creation perhaps?

What quote from Dominic Cascio? You mean the ramblings that appeared on some blog that has never been verified as coming from him?

I've never quoted Roger Friedman as saying the songs are complete.

Just because the Estate said it in a statement doesn't make it true.

I proved several months ago that Michael arrived at the Cascios mid August and was gone by the first week of November. I showed pictures and videos that proved this. Yes I read Frank's book. I take what he says with a grain of salt as I do with anything that is written about Michael for profit. I know it would be hard for Michael to record all those takes, plus Thriller 25 work in such a short time. That was the whole point of me demonstrating that his stay was considerably shorter than they would have us believe. He simply didn't record this stuff there.

Several people from that listening session, not just Trayll, have stated that was said.

Regardless of how many takes there are or aren't, there would be work tapes, Michael talking etc or just mumbling lyrics like he did in pretty much every demo ever. It's obvious thy don't want people to hear them.

I don't create a standard of expectation for these songs in my mind. I just expect them to sound like Michael Jackson. They don't.

 

[ivy]

Just because the Estate said it in a statement doesn't make it true.

but just because you say so it makes it true? ehehehee love the double standard.

Several people from that listening session, not just Trayll, have stated that was said.

show me anyone else other than Taryll and Cory Rooney please. I'll wait.

 

[arnspecs]

Re: MJDHF warning from Sony over leaking Cascio songs

The warning was probably that the songs are crap and those fake ass things should never be allowd to be heard. So yay .. keep them off the internet.

 

[StellaJackson]

but just because you say so it makes it true? ehehehee love the double standard.

Where have I implied that anything I've said it absolutely true? Obviously it is my opinion. However, I am basing my opinion on the evidence available and the songs themselves.

 

[ivy]

Where have I implied that anything I've said it absolutely true? Obviously it is my opinion. However, I am basing my opinion on the evidence available and the songs themselves.

still an opinion

and I'll give you another evidence. This is Bruce Swedien talking about recording Michael.

"When Michael, Quincy and I have recorded the background vocals and harmonies on all his albums, I’ll begin by recording a monophonic melody track with Michael fairly close to the microphone. Of course, Michael sings all these backgrounds himself. Next I'll have him double the same track at the same position at the mic. After that track, I'll have him step back two paces and record a third pass of the same melody with the gain raised to match the level of the previous two. That raises the ratio of early reflections to direct sound. Blended with the first two tracks, this has a wonderful effect. Finally, I might even have him step back further and record a stereo pass of the same line using the microphones set-up in X-Y pair, or “Blumlein Pair”, and blend those tracks in as well. "

Anyone who says
- Cascio songs are finished,
- they aren't not demos
- claim they equals/as good as to final vocals or studio vocals
don't know anything about professional recording or what a professional sound engineer brings to the table.

That's my opinion based on evidence, logic and common sense.

-----------------------------------------------------
what happened to "several people in the listening session" ?

 

[MJPhillip]

Re: MJDHF warning from Sony over leaking Cascio songs

they told to the guy they sued that some cascio songs will be on a future released album!!

 

[StellaJackson]

What does that have to do with anything? I don't care what the songs are supposed to be. They aren't Michael and that's all that matters to me.

 

[ivy]

What does that have to do with anything? I don't care what the songs are supposed to be. They aren't Michael and that's all that matters to me.

then why were you posting they weren't demos and takes and such, one post after another?

if you want to focus on the vocals - keep your posts about vocals and how they sound only.

If you gonna introduce "demo / not demo" argument prepare for an answer back.

---------------

and again what happened to "several people in the listening session"? did they vanish to thin air? or was it just Taryll and Cory?

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Who says these songs are demos? This is not like any demo Michael has ever recorded. The vocalist is going full out. And it is clear that they had a lot of different takes to choose from meaning that there are indeed others. Otherwise they would have just told Taryll that everything was used so there is nothing else to hear

Does Cheater sound like a demo ? No it's sounds like MJ was singing all out.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Does Cheater sound like a demo ? No it's sounds like MJ was singing all out.

Contrary to the Cascio songs, it sounds Michael Jackson without a slightest shadow of doubt.

I guess you don't follow Estate related matters right? News Flash Jacksons and Estate doesn't get along and they do keep each other out. Due to all the events it's probable that Estate doesn't see them as legit concerns but more like problem creation perhaps?

edited to add: In case you don't know Katherine Jackson's lawyers spent months trying to get one of the 3T to be an executor on the Estate. There seems to be bad blood in there.

How about I heard the same thing as Taryll without knowing what Taryll had said? Newsflash: So what if one of the 3T tries to be an executor if it's in the interest to protect MJ's legacy? So far the current executors were crap anyway for allowing such songs and quickly cashing in without worrying about the quality.

 

[Beluga2805]

Re: MJDHF warning from Sony over leaking Cascio songs

^^ If it's indeed true...I guess Sony and the Estate are real fools :-/ They haven't learned anything!