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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Chamife said:
There's no honest passion in these songs. Not in the ballads and not in the up-tempo songs.

Just read the interview with Lenny Kravitz: "

-"Extremely professional, a perfectionist. Still having the passion all those years later, you know?
-"I think that he was -- he was a child and he sang with the same talent and soul and intensity of an Aretha Franklin or a James Brown or any great vocalist".

Much too soon has honest passion, All in your name..everything Michael sang he sang with passion. Different passions maybe like sad, angry, lonely, hopeful, intensly greatful or whatever.....but always honest and passionate.

I really cannot discover any real passion on any Cascio song I heard.

I don't know a thing about musical technique's, so I can't say anything about that, but I know what I miss on each of these songs.
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Michael said himself ''I don't sing it unless i mean it'' well who ever is singing on those cascio tracks certainly isn't singing it like he means it
 
Grent;3564235 said:
He was NOT for christ's sake. A vocal, combined from multiple takes is NOT the same as those multiple takes on their own.


And why does he sound so different all of a sudden, just because it is a demo? Ever heard MJ singing Smile on the street? Or anything in the car? Or at expositions?

I really don't get where your strength to fight for these songs is coming from.
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ivy;3564265 said:
First of all I know about professional recording - thank you. The idea that a song recorded in a home basement with a no name / no education person is suitable for a final release on a internationally famous and professional artist - and not a demo - is an insult to every professional musician / engineer and studio. Honestly YOU are the last person (if you are really in the industry) that I expected to go with this logic.

I experienced initial work in process home recordings, demos. I also sat down in a studio and see only a national artist spend 1500 hours on an album with professional musicians charging tens of thousands of dollars a day. THAT's a professional album recording. That makes a difference.

what is "nonsense" is some of you argue about demo , tracks, takes etc but when cornered you all turn into "that don't sound like him" ex-planation. (hi. what you thought you are the only one with a brain?!!). Like I said either only stick to whether it sounds like Michael or not and stop discussing other stuff, or be able to discuss one issue at hand on its own and do not hide behind "not sound like"

Explain to me why All in your name was recorded in 2002 against invading Iraq but never released in Michael's life time.

and in case people forget

All In Your Name” that was filmed in Middle Ear Studios in December of 2002. - comparing a basement home studio to an actual studio is nonsense
It was also disclosed that there is over 2 hours of both Gibb and Jackson as they are filmed during the whole studio process. - it only took 2 hours to record it.



demo/guide could be anything that's not intended for a final release. it doesn't need to be ramblings, it can be "full" song. I have experienced - and already written multiple times - that demo / guide vocals can be in a relaxed, not going all out format.

and to be clear : I'm discussing takes and demo issues. Nothing else.



you. how you all get riled up. :) how people turn the topic at hand. for example how I asked "so what insight did we get from Birchey's post?" and it was all crickets.

hey I just remembered , Stella what happened to "Several other people at the listening session"?

It's all fun :p and believe me you need that fun. otherwise this will be one boring thread with all you going "it's malachi" times a million.
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It still does not explain why the supposed Michael Jackson on those Cascio tracks sounds like never before. The home studio, although poorer than a professional studio, is still much better than singing in the street, yet Michael sounds Michael even in the street, as much as Lenny Kravitz sounds Lenny Kravitz in the street, none of them sound differently because of poor equipment.
 
ivy said:
... I hear Michael.
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You hear Michael in "Fall in love"? You hear Michael in "Sodier Boy" when he says "victim"? You hear Michael's snorts in "Breaking News"? You hear Michael in "Monster" when the singer sings "then you're runnin', you're runnin' just to escape it" or "mamma got you in a zig zag"?

Have you ever tried to make a list of how many details sound like Michael and how many details actually don't sound like Michael?

ivy said:
I feel no need to go through all the songs find the parts to make comparisons and to convince people. It's a nonsense activity that would require a lot of time and effort that I think personally can be spend better. I'm content - so are the other believers.
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It's a nonesense from the moment you can't put the vocals aside (because they're not identical) and indeed a waste of time. But it makes a lot of sense to do it if you want to make a valid or believable point. By the way, putting aside vocals isn't that hard, especially for someone who claims to know how a professional studio works.

You download audacity, you open the audio files with audacity, you cut the wanted parts of the songs and you paste them next to each other. It takes only a few minutes, not ages.

ivy said:
Doubters are the ones who aren't content and who have the need to demonstrate to the world what they believe - they are kinda like in a war. that's why you would get comparisons, audios and videos from doubters and not from the believers. You don't see anyone comparing Hollywood tonight to establish it's a MJ song. To the believers Cascio songs are just like that. You listen that and you listen to Michael and they hear the same. they don't need parts and bits to argue that they hear Michael all around. I guess people are failing to realize two sides approach to this differently.
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With that logic I can also say that Santa Claus exists and I don't need anything to show to anyone to prove that he exists. Nonsense!
 
LOL

Three-Blind-Mice-nursery-rhymes.png
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Have you ever tried to make a list of how many details sound like Michael and how many details actually don't sound like Michael?
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do you know the TV show, Friends?

Chandler: Didn't you read Lord of the Rings in High School?
Joey: No. I had sex in High School.

and to answer your question seriously - and not to offend anyone - no, I have a job, a family, multiple responsibilities, housework and so on. I only see myself making such pros-cons lists in major life changing events. and if that's required here and I'll say "weird" and leave you all alone with your obsession of Cascio songs.

You download audacity, you open the audio files with audacity, you cut the wanted parts of the songs and you paste them next to each other. It takes only a few minutes, not ages.
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see above

and why? I have a million more important things to do rather than to 1)download a software, 2)learn to use it 3) cut and paste audio files to 4)trying to convince people that are set in their belief. It's futile. even watching my ceiling for that time period would be time better spent. and honestly I'd rather have sex.


With that logic I can also say that Santa Claus exists and I don't need anything to show to anyone to prove that he exists. Nonsense!
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you make me sad, when you don't understand the point and exaggerate to the maximum.
 
ivy said:
is someone blind?
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What are those B/l/U, font, size, color, etc. options for? Decoration supposed not to be touched? Or an option for blind people? I didn't know blind people could read bolded red letters.

When I read two monologues instead of one dialogue, then I really have impression that some people don't read everything. And here again in this very post instead of focusing on what has been said in red, you manage to turn blind eye on the content in order to change the subject.

So, is there a rule now not to use some of the options provided by the forum when we want to emphasize particular parts? I didn't put in red nor underline the whole post did I?
 
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ivy said:
do you know the TV show, Friends?

Chandler: Didn't you read Lord of the Rings in High School?
Joey: No. I had sex in High School.
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Now, that's some reference...

ivy said:
and to answer your question seriously - and not to offend anyone - no, I have a job, a family, multiple responsibilities, housework and so on. I only see myself making such pros-cons lists in major life changing events. and if that's required here and I'll say "weird" and leave you all alone with your obsession of Cascio songs.
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Obsession with the Cascio songs? You think you are the only one with multiple responsibilities, a family, a job and so on? Wait till you have kids and then we'll talk responsibilities in life.

One of the major changes in my life is the death of Michael Jackson. Over his dead body some businessmen cash in in his name thanks to the songs that have more discrepancies than authenticity. You can call me weird for bothering, the way Michael was called weird for other stuff or as you called it: obsessions.


ivy said:
and why? I have a million more important things to do rather than to 1)download a software, 2)learn to use it 3) cut and paste audio files to 4)trying to convince people that are set in their belief. It's futile. even watching my ceiling for that time period would be time better spent.
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You know after one year of spending your time debating in this thread without offering a single theoretical proof --yet gladly criticizing people's comparisons-- and saying that you haven't had time to spend few minutes for an easy software such as audacity is contradictory to the whole "to do" list you just made.

ivy said:
and honestly I'd rather have sex.
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Some people puts it in a "to do" lists, some people have it spontaneously.
While you were typing all your posts I was having sex, multiple times.


ivy said:
you make me sad, when you don't understand the point and exaggerate to the maximum.
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Well, to me when you say in a controversy thread that you don't need to provide anything to prove what you hear opens the door to all kinds of possibiites, including Santa Claus.
 
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Proof that Santa Claus is Real!
( This evidence is just as reliable as comparison tapes)


Even though I don't believe the Casico tracks are 100% MJ
 
qbee said:
Proof that Santa Claus is Real!
( This evidence is just as reliable as comparison tapes)

Even though I don't believe the Casico tracks are 100% MJ
and also dont believe these Santa tracks are 100 % real
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And this is as much reliable as saying "I hear Michael" and "I don't need to show anything to prove it".

p.s. Why don't you hear Michael? Because you automatically compare the voice in your head with his previous songs. And as a matter of fact they are different voices as showed by the comparisons. But if you say that you hear Michael in the Cascio songs and you don't show a single audio file where those identical voices are, then it's even less reliable than believing in Santa Claus.
 
ivy said:
see above

and why? I have a million more important things to do rather than to 1)download a software, 2)learn to use it 3) cut and paste audio files to 4)trying to convince people that are set in their belief. It's futile. even watching my ceiling for that time period would be time better spent. and honestly I'd rather have sex.
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I'm sorry but you have spent all these hours in this debate, making your extra long posts, counter-posts, defending, etc for over a year now, I don't buy that you don't "have time" to cut and paste in Audacity. You could do a little day, just anything.

You have time.
 
The way I see it is neither side has the ability to prove it is or isnt Michael. The comparison tapes dont prove its not. But I dont see why you would try force someone to use the same type of unreliable evidence to prove thier case. Becuase even if they could find other vocals of MJ that match the casico songs its still proves nothing. Its fun making comparisons but as far as actual proof it is a waste of time. Its only for the sake of debating this issue but actually proves nothing.

Ivy cant prove it is Michael and (she knows that) and you cant prove it isnt Michael . (but do you know that ?)

I might be over speaking but I dont think Ivy is as invested as the doubters . She likes a good debate but she
isnt all that invested in proving it is Michael. She just more or less is debating to show you have no proof it isnt.
Thats how I see it anyway.


and myself Im more intersted in proving Santa is real :)

 
Hey ADKI, I was just wandering why when Jesta posted that long statement, you only replied to very specific points. thanks.
 
In my mind, I can't see how any fan could be satisfied with this situation. I realise there are some who believe the lead vocals on the Cascio songs are MJ - I don't have an issue with that, everyone's entitled to an opinion. However, there are many of us fans who are convinced that someone has just got away with large scale fraud. Surely, surely, if there was a possibility of that being the case, with so many fans seeing/hearing it, and it surely damaging any future MJ releases (and revenue for the kids), surely everyone would want to fight for transparency??

This is what I don't get. We just get shady excuse after shady excuse, with absolutely no evidence, and some people seem to be quite satisfied with that. It doesn't sit right with me. The Michael Jackson fans I know wouldn't let this slide. It seems like when MJ died, something else died with him.

Dress it up how you like - something stinks.
 
qbee said:
The way I see it is neither side has the ability to prove it is or isnt Michael. The comparison tapes dont prove its not. But I dont see why you would try force someone to use the same type of unreliable evidence to prove thier case. Becuase even if they could find other vocals of MJ that match the casico songs its still proves nothing. Its fun making comparisons but as far as actual proof it is a waste of time. Its only for the sake of debating this issue but actually proves nothing.

Ivy cant prove it is Michael and (she knows that) and you cant prove it isnt Michael . (but do you know that ?)

I might be over speaking but I dont think Ivy is as invested as the doubters . She likes a good debate but she
isnt all that invested in proving it is Michael. She just more or less is debating to show you have no proof it isnt.
Thats how I see it anyway.


and myself Im more intersted in proving Santa is real :)

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You know nobody was claiming that comparisons were "actual" proof, but only theoretical.

I would agree with you that it is a waste of time for Ivy to make the comparisons, but the matter of the fact is that Ivy did spend (or waste if you prefer) hours, days, weeks, months, a year now in posting lengthy posts and not a single one with some vocal comparison, not for the actual proof sake, but for the debate sake in order to show the doubters which parts sound Michael. Is it that difficult to do? Nobody's asking the impossible though, so why is it easier (or less a waste of time) to post miles long posts than a simple voice to voice comparison?

You know, comparing the voices doesn't have to be any kind of proof, but also a share of opinion. It's a part of a simple discussion among people, nothing more. From the moment the believers stick to the only televised proof there is: Eddy's and Teddy's word: "It is Michael" and "Nobody can scream like that" + the extremely vague report by the Estate, and at the same time criticize the comparisons, I am asking them where are the official results of the analysis of the tracks by those "best experts"? No need to show them despite unhappy fans? Is that a healthy situation for the MJ fan community? Sorry, but not to me.

The doubters at least show why they doubt the authenticity of the tracks. What is use of simply saying "I don't hear Michael" or "I hear Michael"? Well for heaven's sake show it where you hear Michael if you hear Michael, it takes a couple of minutes, which is much shorter than typing neverending posts.

It's always much easier to criticize others than question oneself. So, if Ivy wants to criticize others for those comparisons, fine, but then she should suggest an alternative and instead of proving others wrong, maybe she should also try to prove she's right, which she fails to do.
 
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BUMPER SNIPPET said:
While you were typing all your posts I was having sex, multiple times.
again you totally misunderstood a whole joke and again you exaggerate


Pentum said:
I'm sorry but you have spent all these hours in this debate, making your extra long posts, counter-posts, defending, etc for over a year now, I don't buy that you don't "have time" to cut and paste in Audacity. You could do a little day, just anything.

You have time.
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I don't know how many hours you spend on this thread to make comparisons etc but my posting happens during work and during I do other things - such as I'm posting this simultaneously as I'm having breakfast, (from my phone during lunch breaks, while I'm waiting at other places). so I'm not spending extra time on it. Such programs would require me to spend extra time while at home and not doing anything else. Although I have no issues checking this thread while at work at breaks, simply I believe my personal extra free time can be better spent.

Furthermore it's not only a factor of "time". As I wrote before I have no reason or motivation to dedicate any time to it because
1. I hear Michael and I'm content
2. I feel no need to convince people on how I feel
3. I couldn't care less if no one agrees with me
4. As far as the world is concerned these are Michael Jackson songs on a Michael Jackson album hence I don't need to prove anything
5. People are set in their opinions and any attempt would be futile.

Got it now? It's not just an issue of time.

In my mind, I can't see how any fan could be satisfied with this situation. I realise there are some who believe the lead vocals on the Cascio songs are MJ - I don't have an issue with that, everyone's entitled to an opinion. However, there are many of us fans who are convinced that someone has just got away with large scale fraud. Surely, surely, if there was a possibility of that being the case, with so many fans seeing/hearing it, and it surely damaging any future MJ releases (and revenue for the kids), surely everyone would want to fight for transparency??

This is what I don't get. We just get shady excuse after shady excuse, with absolutely no evidence, and some people seem to be quite satisfied with that. It doesn't sit right with me. The Michael Jackson fans I know wouldn't let this slide. It seems like when MJ died, something else died with him.

Dress it up how you like - something stinks.
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I guess still one side doesn't understand how the other side approaches to this event.

Let think about any song, that has leaked and not a cascio song. Is anyone making lists whether it sounds Michael or not? any comparison videos? any requests for proof of video/handwritten lyrics etc? No. Why? because to then it's MJ and there's no need for such things.

Similarly people who approach to Cascio songs as MJ feel no need for such things (hence you can see that the comparison audio requests coming from the other side is meaningless to them) and they have no reason to "fight" for anything.

"The Michael Jackson fans I know wouldn't let this slide." - assumes that all the MJ fans feel the same way as you do. However as you said in your very first sentence there's a group that doesn't agree with your position and hence have reason to fight.
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BUMPER SNIPPET said:
What if I was telling the truth?

I did not misunderstand, but your joke was contradicting with the amount of time you have spent in this thread.
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think whatever you'd like to think. I have a internet capable cell phone, and I'm a fast reader / typer. This is not taking a lot of my free time. I actually do it simultaneously while I'm at work or outside doing other stuff. So my time spent here is limited.

Furthermore I don't understand the recent ganging up on me to do comparison audios. Why don't you bully the other believers as well? and funnily I wrote months ago and I have no knowledge or intention to do any videos. So I won't. And what's funny is didn't you ask Pentum to do comparisons for you? Then why do you want or expect me to do my own comparisons? I ain't doing any comparisons. Is it rubbing you the wrong way? Boo-hoo, I don't care,
 
ivy said:
I guess still one side doesn't understand how the other side approaches to this event.

Let think about any song, that has leaked and not a cascio song. Is anyone making lists whether it sounds Michael or not? any comparison videos? any requests for proof of video/handwritten lyrics etc? No. Why? because to then it's MJ and there's no need for such things.

Similarly people who approach to Cascio songs as MJ feel no need for such things (hence you can see that the comparison audio requests coming from the other side is meaningless to them) and they have no reason to "fight" for anything.

"The Michael Jackson fans I know wouldn't let this slide." - assumes that all the MJ fans feel the same way as you do. However as you said in your very first sentence there's a group that doesn't agree with your position and hence have reason to fight.
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I completely understand what you're saying, but you still don't get it.

There are no comparison videos to the other leaked songs because everyone knows it's MJ!

If there were many fans who remained adamant that a song was not MJ (even if I didn't agree), and they posted their comparisons to demonstrate why, and it affected sales of future albums, and if Sony etc. could not provide any proof it was him singing (only lame excuses), and if it was splitting the fan community, then I would be very concerned and start to wonder what the hell is going on with no transparency.

It's like you're just being obstinate and it's why people like myself are getting so frustrated with you. Let me reiterate - you don't have to have the same opinion as me. But I can't see how you can think there's nothing wrong here. Even a little bit suspicious????

About the video comparisons - all I wanted was some audio evidence to see things from the believers' perspective. I want to understand you. God help me do I want to understand you. But it's not being made easy. You gave me the impression there was already videos out there. It turned out not to be the case. The reason why it all seems to be directed at you is because you seem to be the only consistent believer currently posting in this thread.
 
kopwatcher said:
It's like you're just being obstinate and it's why people like myself are getting so frustrated with you. Let me reiterate - you don't have to have the same opinion as me. But I can't see how you can think there's nothing wrong here. Even a little bit suspicious????
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suspicious about what - vocals, fraud etc? please clarify that I'll respond.
 
ivy said:
suspicious about what - vocals, fraud etc? please clarify that I'll respond.
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Suspicious about the lack of transparency and evidence. First the files were deleted, then the hard drive was broken, if any evidence were to exist Cascio would be ramming it down our throats, the alleged audio analysis that took place, the ever changing explanations shower/PVC pipe/melodyne/guide vocals/etc., the lack of any shred of evidence at all.
 
I'm done reading Frank Cascio's book, and after reading it, I'd like to know how the pro-fake people here can actually believe that the whole Cascio family -- father, mother, brothers, sisters -- would willingly go along with a criminal hoax that is just about the most disrespectful and evil thing they could do to their friend MJ -- someone they spent years living with, caring for, helping in moments of need, etc. The idea that this family -- who have never been suspected of being anything less than amazingly great and loyal friends to MJ -- would turn around, right after his death, and exploit his memory in the most sacrilegious way one can imagine. It makes NO sense. The father wouldn't go along with it -- he's got restaurants, a reputation, a career : he doesn't need this. The mother wouldn't go along with this. Eddie wouldn't do this -- it would be crazy, criminal, would potentially ruin his whole life if found out, would endanger his plans of making it as a legitimate producer in the biz. And Frank wouldn't go along with it either -- if the guy was as evil as going along with this implies, his book about MJ would have been a negative tell-all, and it would have sold a LOT more copies, and he would have gotten on a LOT more TV shows if it had been the case.
 
ivy said:
think whatever you'd like to think. I have a internet capable cell phone, and I'm a fast reader / typer. This is not taking a lot of my free time. I actually do it simultaneously while I'm at work or outside doing other stuff. So my time spent here is limited.

Furthermore I don't understand the recent ganging up on me to do comparison audios. Why don't you bully the other believers as well? and funnily I wrote months ago and I have no knowledge or intention to do any videos. So I won't. And what's funny is didn't you ask Pentum to do comparisons for you? Then why do you want or expect me to do my own comparisons? I ain't doing any comparisons. Is it rubbing you the wrong way? Boo-hoo, I don't care,
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You've been debating for a year haven't you?

You could have asked Pentum or anyone else to do comparisons for you, but I guess that takes too much time to type.

No one is ganging up, I actually don't care a bit if you post comparisons or not. All I care of is Michael Jackson in this thread. Whoever supports those tracks to be genuine despite the authenticity suspicion, I am sorry, I won't shut my mouth.

I did not ask you specifically to post comparisons, I asked any believer and I've been waiting for a year now. Only ADKI pointed out things that he thought to be Michael Jackson. I asked Pentum to put the voices side aside and I didn't say to ADKI that he was right or wrong, just that I don't hear the similarity where he thought he heard.

But you constantly want to prove others to be wrong and then you're surprised people answer you back. Nobody's ganging up on purpose, we too have our lives, our jobs, our responsibilities, ...
 
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