Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Chamife]

Who is Birchey and how come everyone is putting a lot of trust in him? It makes me curious on who is and what he did (no pun intended).

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Who is Birchey and how come everyone is putting a lot of trust in him? It makes me curious on who is and what he did (no pun intended).

He had access to some of the audio files we have never heard. He suggested that the songs have been fabricated from those files, which actually confirms our doubts about the authenticity of the songs and the reason why we hear some things are wrong on those tracks.

After hearing those files he also expressed his opinion that the lead vocals are sung by Jason Malachi. He suggested that only a tiny part such as some background vocals were sung by Michael Jackson.

 

[Chamife]

^^Thanks Bumper.

He had access to some of the audio files we have never heard. He suggested that the songs have been fabricated from those files, which actually confirms our doubts about the authenticity of the songs and the reason why we hear some things are wrong on those tracks.

Wish I could've listened to them too.

After hearing those files he also expressed his opinion that the lead vocals are sung by Jason Malachi. He suggested that only a tiny part such as some background vocals were sung by Michael Jackson.

That's a very plausible theory, IMO.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

^^Thanks Bumper.


Wish I could've listened to them too.


That's a very plausible theory, IMO.

Well, the thing is we have no idea where the vocals come from and what were they intended for.

According to Birchey, the names of the audio files were suggesting that the MJ's vocals were sorted by relevance, for example: MJ's breaths, MJ's telephone audio, etc. This probably explains the copy pastes that we hear. After hearing all the files Birchey thinks that the majority of the lead vocals (90% if not more) was sung by Jason Malachi.

Before Soldier Boy came out he said that it was quite catchy, and as far as Black Widow is concerned, he said that it was the most convincing.

As far as I am concerned I find Black Widow the most convincing too, but I still have impression that the beginning of Black Widow are copy pastes and when the voice starts singing, I find the yelps/gulps overdone and exaggerated, as if the singer tried to imitate a voice rather than as if it flowed naturally.

 

[Pentum]

Hi BUMPER, what's your opinion on the Cascio songs? It's been over a year now of debating, time for your opinion since you clearly haven't shared it or even hinted it!

Thanks!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Hi BUMPER, what's your opinion on the Cascio songs? It's been over a year now of debating, time for your opinion since you clearly haven't shared it or even hinted it!

Thanks!

Are you kidding me? loool

 

[Dorian]

Hi BUMPER, what's your opinion on the Cascio songs? It's been over a year now of debating, time for your opinion since you clearly haven't shared it or even hinted it!

Thanks!

I bet he's a believer...h34r:

 

[Grent]

That "there were no other takes" versus " there are multiple takes" is conflicting IMO.

It is not. Multiple takes were combined into one - that's the usual practice. That's the one lead vocal track we have.
What we don't have, are those multiple takes in full ... those, where he says "let's go" or "ready?" or "sorry" or "let's do it that way". Because you always 'take' from them, but never delete them, in case you need them again.

"MJ was so happy, he let Eddie delete everything else" ... right. Now THAT'S conflicting with demo / guide vocal.

And I personally wouldn't expect Michael to record tens of takes for 12 demo songs over 4 months. It's not realistic. I remember for one song Birchey said the lead was combination of 2 takes and had 1 back vocals. That's 3 takes already.

Those where he is snipping to count the beat until his overdub sets in. That means, it doesn't have to be a FULL take from start to finish. Just one phrase again, because he did it wrong or has another idea or anything. Even if those takes existed, they were worked into the one lead vocal file and the 'work tapes', the takes themselves, were deleted / destroyed.

How many more do you expect for a demo / guide vocals that wouldn't be used in the final release?

Does it really sound like such a demo / guide vocal to you? The way it is sung?
Or does it sound like a demo / guide vocal to you, because it doesn't sound like MJ?


IMO it doesn't sound like a demo vocal, it doesn't sound like MJ.

 

[Grent]

again how many more takes do you expect? Taryll was going on "a photographer can show you multiple pictures" , so he was shown 12 takes. What more did he ask for?

He was NOT for christ's sake. A vocal, combined from multiple takes is NOT the same as those multiple takes on their own.


And why does he sound so different all of a sudden, just because it is a demo? Ever heard MJ singing Smile on the street? Or anything in the car? Or at expositions?

I really don't get where your strength to fight for these songs is coming from.

 

[Grent]

Anyone who says
- Cascio songs are finished,
- they aren't not demos
- claim they equals/as good as to final vocals or studio vocals
don't know anything about professional recording or what a professional sound engineer brings to the table.

Ok, now you go too far. And I will to. YOU don't know anything about professional recording. That's the problem.
All in your name. Did he record that like Bruce did on some but not all records? "A wonderful effect" ... you think MJ sounds like him because of "a wonderful effect" and does sound like someone else, because this effect is missing?

I'm out. This is nonsense.

 

[Chamife]

Well, the thing is we have no idea where the vocals come from and what were they intended for.

According to Birchey, the names of the audio files were suggesting that the MJ's vocals were sorted by relevance, for example: MJ's breaths, MJ's telephone audio, etc. This probably explains the copy pastes that we hear. After hearing all the files Birchey thinks that the majority of the lead vocals (90% if not more) was sung by Jason Malachi.

Before Soldier Boy came out he said that it was quite catchy, and as far as Black Widow is concerned, he said that it was the most convincing.

As far as I am concerned I find Black Widow the most convincing too, but I still have impression that the beginning of Black Widow are copy pastes and when the voice starts singing, I find the yelps/gulps overdone and exaggerated, as if the singer tried to imitate a voice rather than as if it flowed naturally.

Can't find it on my comp. I'm terrible at saving stuff. I remember the song, the melody and snippets of it, but too little to say anything about the voice...

 

[ivy]

Ok, now you go too far. And I will to. YOU don't know anything about professional recording. That's the problem.
All in your name. Did he record that like Bruce did on some but not all records? "A wonderful effect" ... you think MJ sounds like him because of "a wonderful effect" and does sound like someone else, because this effect is missing?

I'm out. This is nonsense.

First of all I know about professional recording - thank you. The idea that a song recorded in a home basement with a no name / no education person is suitable for a final release on a internationally famous and professional artist - and not a demo - is an insult to every professional musician / engineer and studio. Honestly YOU are the last person (if you are really in the industry) that I expected to go with this logic.

I experienced initial work in process home recordings, demos. I also sat down in a studio and see only a national artist spend 1500 hours on an album with professional musicians charging tens of thousands of dollars a day. THAT's a professional album recording. That makes a difference.

what is "nonsense" is some of you argue about demo , tracks, takes etc but when cornered you all turn into "that don't sound like him" ex-planation. (hi. what you thought you are the only one with a brain?!!). Like I said either only stick to whether it sounds like Michael or not and stop discussing other stuff, or be able to discuss one issue at hand on its own and do not hide behind "not sound like"

Explain to me why All in your name was recorded in 2002 against invading Iraq but never released in Michael's life time.

and in case people forget

All In Your Name” that was filmed in Middle Ear Studios in December of 2002. - comparing a basement home studio to an actual studio is nonsense
It was also disclosed that there is over 2 hours of both Gibb and Jackson as they are filmed during the whole studio process. - it only took 2 hours to record it.

Does it really sound like such a demo / guide vocal to you? The way it is sung?

demo/guide could be anything that's not intended for a final release. it doesn't need to be ramblings, it can be "full" song. I have experienced - and already written multiple times - that demo / guide vocals can be in a relaxed, not going all out format.

and to be clear : I'm discussing takes and demo issues. Nothing else.

I really don't get where your strength to fight for these songs is coming from.

you. how you all get riled up. how people turn the topic at hand. for example how I asked "so what insight did we get from Birchey's post?" and it was all crickets.

hey I just remembered , Stella what happened to "Several other people at the listening session"?

It's all fun and believe me you need that fun. otherwise this will be one boring thread with all you going "it's malachi" times a million.

 

[kopwatcher]

for example how I asked "so what insight did we get from Birchey's post?" and it was all crickets.

Yes, I remember the sound of those crickets when I asked for all of the empirical evidence comparing the obvious MJ voice on the Cascio/Malachi tracks to previous MJ songs.

By the way, unrelated point I want to make. I'm not a big fan of the 'Michael' album in general. Some of you are going to think I'm nuts for saying this but bear with me; Behind The Mask is a prime example. Don't get me wrong, the song is brilliant and is one of, if not THE best on the album. However, I was listening to Greg Phillinganes' version, and instrumentally a lot of people think that version is better (myself included). MJ would never release a version of a song if he wasn't absolutely confident it was better than all other versions. He had artistic pride.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: MJDHF warning from Sony over leaking Cascio songs

Ironic really. We should be suing them for fraud.

 

[Pentum]

Re: MJDHF warning from Sony over leaking Cascio songs

Poor coolcat... BTW, the multimedia section is up now. It was a few months ago I think when they removed it for a while.

 

[ivy]

Yes, I remember the sound of those crickets when I asked for all of the empirical evidence comparing the obvious MJ voice on the Cascio/Malachi tracks to previous MJ songs.

and then you were given examples of what you have been asked for, right? what happened later? did you compare it? or just it entered from one ear and left from the another?

 

[Chamife]

Is Eddie friends with Uri Geller too? Maybe Uri can ask Eddie questions under hypnosis..

carry on....

 

[kopwatcher]

and then you were given examples of what you have been asked for, right? what happened later? did you compare it? or just it entered from one ear and left from the another?

Errr...no, I don't remember seeing any examples. Could you point me to your post where you linked to said videos?

EDIT: I just found this, is this what you're talking about?

We had done that before as well, the answer was always "no I don't here Michael"

I'll quote Birchey here

"boy on Soldier Boy is definitely Michael".

enjoy

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...Album-Debate?p=3561438&viewfull=1#post3561438

 

[Willy]

Re: MJDHF warning from Sony over leaking Cascio songs

I'm glad he leaked the songs and I feel sorry for him if he really has legal problems now but I must say that the way he chose to leak them was pretty dumb. Marking the songs with his username and the name of a forum and then sharing them under that username seemed like asking for trouble.

 

[ivy]

^^
and the following posts/discussion about background vocals and black widow.

and I can't do any videos sorry it's firstly because I don't know how and secondly I don't have the ample time or patience for it.

 

[Pentum]

I can assure you that Birchey believes these songs are fake including Soldier Boy and BW. He later changed his mind about MJ being in the BG vocals in some parts. However, so what? It's much harder to identify a person singing in the background that in the main vocals so I can understand his confusion at that point.

 

[kopwatcher]

Ivy - But you asked me to compare it, before facetiously asking if it went through one ear and out the other. How can I do that if there's nothing to compare? All you've given me is some "he said/she said" which you've primarily taken from private messages. From what you've said I was under the impression there was some wealth of audio comparison material for me to listen to. If there isn't, please just say so.

 

[ivy]

I can assure you that Birchey believes these songs are fake including Soldier Boy and BW. He later changed his mind about MJ being in the BG vocals in some parts. However, so what? It's much harder to identify a person singing in the background that in the main vocals so I can understand his confusion at that point.

and I think we already acknowledged that he changed his mind - after the lawsuit. but to be clear he wasn't talking about background vocals when he was mentioning Black widow - (and Soldier Boy to some extent). He had told me he believed that to be 80-90% Michael singing and I told him it doesn't make sense saying one song to be Michael and the rest not to be him.

Ivy - But you asked me to compare it, before facetiously asking if it went through one ear and out the other. How can I do that if there's nothing to compare? All you've given me is some "he said/she said" which you've primarily taken from private messages. From what you've said I was under the impression there was some wealth of audio comparison material for me to listen to. If there isn't, please just say so.

why do you need comparison videos? listen to what was mentioned and then listen to any michael jackson song. there's your comparison audio material.

reminder: also due to the rules no video/ audio with such songs can be posted or shared on or through MJJC.

 

[kopwatcher]

why do you need comparison videos? listen to what was mentioned and then listen to any michael jackson song. there's your comparison audio material.

Sometimes what you don't say is as important as what you say. I hope I'm not the only one who sees it.

 

[ivy]

Sometimes what you don't say is as important as what you say. I hope I'm not the only one who sees it.

honestly I don't know what you see. But I can tell you what you don't see. I hear Michael. I feel no need to go through all the songs find the parts to make comparisons and to convince people. It's a nonsense activity that would require a lot of time and effort that I think personally can be spend better. I'm content - so are the other believers.

Doubters are the ones who aren't content and who have the need to demonstrate to the world what they believe - they are kinda like in a war. that's why you would get comparisons, audios and videos from doubters and not from the believers. You don't see anyone comparing Hollywood tonight to establish it's a MJ song. To the believers Cascio songs are just like that. You listen that and you listen to Michael and they hear the same. they don't need parts and bits to argue that they hear Michael all around.

I guess people are failing to realize two sides approach to this differently.

 

[kopwatcher]

Ok

 

[love is magical]

How many here were 100% sure that they hear Michael and were 100% content the FIRST time they heard Breaking News? I browsed the Breaking News last week and was reminded the overwhelmingly negative initial reaction to the song.

I guess it's fair to say that at one point the vast majority of members here were doubters. If not, people didn't need to have explanations like wrong mix, the vocals sound better on HMV site, etc... I was one of the people who thought I heard more Michael on the HMV site. I guess I tried very hard to convince myself.

It's sad that we couldn't enjoy the first new Michael Jackson song in years the same way we enjoy and appreciate All In Your Name.

An event that was supposed to be celebrated by fans ended up causing confusions and sadness.

 

[Chamife]

There's no honest passion in these songs. Not in the ballads and not in the up-tempo songs.

Just read the interview with Lenny Kravitz: "

-"Extremely professional, a perfectionist. Still having the passion all those years later, you know?
-"I think that he was -- he was a child and he sang with the same talent and soul and intensity of an Aretha Franklin or a James Brown or any great vocalist".

Much too soon has honest passion, All in your name..everything Michael sang he sang with passion. Different passions maybe like sad, angry, lonely, hopeful, intensly greatful or whatever.....but always honest and passionate.

I really cannot discover any real passion on any Cascio song I heard.

I don't know a thing about musical technique's, so I can't say anything about that, but I know what I miss on each of these songs.

 

[love is magical]

There's no honest passion in these songs. Not in the ballads and not in the up-tempo songs.

Just read the interview with Lenny Kravitz: "

-"Extremely professional, a perfectionist. Still having the passion all those years later, you know?
-"I think that he was -- he was a child and he sang with the same talent and soul and intensity of an Aretha Franklin or a James Brown or any great vocalist".

Much too soon has honest passion, All in your name..everything Michael sang he sang with passion. Different passions maybe like sad, angry, lonely, hopeful, intensly greatful or whatever.....but always honest and passionate.

I really cannot discover any real passion on any Cascio song I heard.

I don't know a thing about musical technique's, so I can't say anything about that, but I know what I miss on each of these songs.

I agree with you. I can't find any passion in the Cascio tracks neither. The voice lacks richness and depth. As a result, it sounds soul-less.

Just look at the way Michael recorded in a studio. See how animated he was. See how he channeled his emotion through music.

Authentic or not, the productions of the Cascio tracks suck the essence of Michael Jackson out miserably.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

How many here were 100% sure that they hear Michael and were 100% content the FIRST time they heard Breaking News? I browsed the Breaking News last week and was reminded the overwhelmingly negative initial reaction to the song.

I guess it's fair to say that at one point the vast majority of members here were doubters. If not, people didn't need to have explanations like wrong mix, the vocals sound better on HMV site, etc... I was one of the people who thought I heard more Michael on the HMV site. I guess I tried very hard to convince myself.

It's sad that we couldn't enjoy the first new Michael Jackson song in years the same way we enjoy and appreciate All In Your Name.

An event that was supposed to be celebrated by fans ended up causing confusions and sadness.

When I first heard Breaking News I knew (IMO) it was MJ then all the controversy broke out and many fans started doubting.