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Michael - The Great Album Debate

love is magical said:
Shopping, eating, sleeping, watching TV, meeting up with friends. ;)
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Ah the life of a New Yorker... :D

I'll be playing games, eating, sleeping and meeting up with my ex (wait, that's at the end of this week... Oh well, still counts!)

... Oh wait, and coursework as well... Damn.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Let's not forget that we "Believers"/"Doubters" are Michael Jackson fans so if we are not debating on the Cascio tracks we are all still MJ fans to respect one another equally.

Believers are not real MJ fans.
Doubters are not real MJ fans.

MJ fans are real MJ fans.
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You are amongst approx. 20% that believe the Cascio songs to be 90%+ MJ. How do you feel about that fact that 80% don't feel the same as you?
 
Grent said:
You are amongst approx. 20% that believe the Cascio songs to be 90%+ MJ. How do you feel about that fact that 80% don't feel the same as you?
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really weak argument..

According to Gallup Poll in 2005 70% of Americans said that they believe charges against Michael Jackson to be true

"popular" or "majority" opinion doesn't always mean it's the right opinion.
 
My net has been out for the past month almost... I come back and it's like I never left, the conversation seems about the same. :D But I'm just glad people are still discussing it!!!
 
ivy said:
really weak argument..

According to Gallup Poll in 2005 70% of Americans said that they believe charges against Michael Jackson to be true

"popular" or "majority" opinion doesn't always mean it's the right opinion.
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Inappropriate response to a simple question. It's not an argument and not about who is right at all. I know that feeling something most people don't gets you puzzled. I'm interested in whether this is the case or not.
 
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ADKIc3mAnX said:
80% maybe here but the rest don't complain.
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So you feel, the doubters are all in here ? That's what I felt too at first.
When I read the BN Premiere thread, however, I was surprised of how many people immediately said it was not MJ and sticked to that, but seem to never post in this thread, at least in the last couple of months. Some say, many don't post anyhwere anymore.
So you don't feel you are within a minority? I actually don't know whether there are more doubters or believers. But I'm pretty sure, that there are very little "90%+ believers". What group you belong to always influences your thoughts once in a while, I guess.

What I mean is, it might be easier for people to not take the doubters seriously because they believe the doubters are just a bunch of crazy people trolling in the dark corner of a forum. (remember that post '1300 pages of trolling' ?)
People might rethink their position if they see the whole picture.
 
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What I still think is very crazy is the fact you guys are arguing with each other as if both (yes both) sides know for sure the songs are/aren't Michael Jackson. Yeah, like I said many times before, nobody knows 100% sure if it's him or if it's not him.

I also hope to end this question once and for all (I'm hinting at the "At which part/song do you hear Michael and why do you hear him?")? Seriously?
So if I were to ask you guys at which part you hear Jason you would say the whole song. A believer would say I hear Michael in the whole song aswell. Then we have the comparisons which are not and never will be real proof. Yes, Jason has some songs in which he sounds alot like the cascio songs. But he also has songs in which his voice sounds a lot like other "real" MJ songs. So really, as a believer and more as a fellow MJ fan (and I respect both sides), could you stop asking this "dumb" question every freaking time?
I know you guys hate the fact/can't stand the fact other people believe the songs are MJ, but we all have our opinions and we are gonna stand by them even if people like it or not. And you guys are doing the same right now correct?

So again, none of the sides knows for 100% sure the songs are MJ or not (And don't give me/other people "crap" that you HEAR it's him or not because other people HEAR it IS him etc, you get what I mean). It's no valid excuse (goes for both, doubters AND believers).
I love the discussion about the songs actually, but looking at the "doubters" going crazy with so called proof against believers without actually having real proof isn't helping anyone. Same goes for the believers, you guys (including me) do NOT have real proof aswell.

I'm not a moderator here but I would love to discuss the songs with you guys and not arguing everyday and everytime why you and others think the songs are fake and why the believers/doubters are wrong. After 1 year and almost 1400 pages we're still nowhere. Like my post stated before, if people really want to do something about this issue it's better to team up and confront the estate/cascio's or whatever works best as a team and get/request some real solid proof or evidence. Only then we can go somewhere...

Felt like saying this and I hope everyone reads it this time. =)
 
^ why is it a dumb question? We show through the comparisons where we hear Jason....we've discussed in great detail the differences and similarity, the skill, the nuances...I mean, there are hundreds of pages on this! ...the believers swear they hear Michael, so we're just asking how, why and where they hear him because WE don't and we'd LIKE to....it's a simple, innocent question and for some reason the doubters keep getting slagged because we're asking...It's a discussion...why can't we ask these questions to generate ideas and discussion? Seems the believers get on the defense whenever we ask this...It's a way for both sides to understand why they stand where they stand...
 
IvoDT said:
What I still think is very crazy is the fact you guys are arguing with each other as if both (yes both) sides know for sure the songs are/aren't Michael Jackson. Yeah, like I said many times before, nobody knows 100% sure if it's him or if it's not him.

I also hope to end this question once and for all (I'm hinting at the "At which part/song do you hear Michael and why do you hear him?")? Seriously?
So if I were to ask you guys at which part you hear Jason you would say the whole song. A believer would say I hear Michael in the whole song aswell. Then we have the comparisons which are not and never will be real proof. Yes, Jason has some songs in which he sounds alot like the cascio songs. But he also has songs in which his voice sounds a lot like other "real" MJ songs. So really, as a believer and more as a fellow MJ fan (and I respect both sides), could you stop asking this "dumb" question every freaking time?
I know you guys hate the fact/can't stand the fact other people believe the songs are MJ, but we all have our opinions and we are gonna stand by them even if people like it or not. And you guys are doing the same right now correct?

So again, none of the sides knows for 100% sure the songs are MJ or not (And don't give me/other people "crap" that you HEAR it's him or not because other people HEAR it IS him etc, you get what I mean). It's no valid excuse (goes for both, doubters AND believers).
I love the discussion about the songs actually, but looking at the "doubters" going crazy with so called proof against believers without actually having real proof isn't helping anyone. Same goes for the believers, you guys (including me) do NOT have real proof aswell.

I'm not a moderator here but I would love to discuss the songs with you guys and not arguing everyday and everytime why you and others think the songs are fake and why the believers/doubters are wrong. After 1 year and almost 1400 pages we're still nowhere. Like my post stated before, if people really want to do something about this issue it's better to team up and confront the estate/cascio's or whatever works best as a team and get/request some real solid proof or evidence. Only then we can go somewhere...

Felt like saying this and I hope everyone reads it this time. =)
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Have you heard all 12 songs and all demos?

And someone is doing something. They just don't post here anymore.
 
This debate is not really a debate... I mean there is a reason why Aniram is gone for a month and is still the same in here.. Going back and forth saying "I hear this" "I hear that" is not going to make people jump to one side of the fence because no matter what YOU hear, the other person is just as "sure" of what they hear.

We wont get anywhere until there is further investigated information!
 
IvoDT said:
What I still think is very crazy is the fact you guys are arguing with each other as if both (yes both) sides know for sure the songs are/aren't Michael Jackson. Yeah, like I said many times before, nobody knows 100% sure if it's him or if it's not him.
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If someone is absolutely sure whether it's MJ or not, then we wouldn't have a 1,400-page long thread. The discussion would be ended long time ago. The fact that no one can say for sure whether it's Michael Jackson is what drives this on-going discussion. Some people may be discouraged by the uncertainty and avoid the discussion. On the contrary, some people are intrigued by the uncertainty and keep going.

It's not crazy that we are still discussing with each other given the fact that there is no concrete evidence prooving either side. On the other hand, it would indeed be crazy if people are still discussing it when it's proven that whether it's MJ or not on the tracks.

You have to consider the nature of the matter. There is nothing crazy about people wanting to keep the discussion going.

IvoDT said:
I also hope to end this question once and for all (I'm hinting at the "At which part/song do you hear Michael and why do you hear him?")? Seriously?
So if I were to ask you guys at which part you hear Jason you would say the whole song. A believer would say I hear Michael in the whole song aswell. Then we have the comparisons which are not and never will be real proof. Yes, Jason has some songs in which he sounds alot like the cascio songs. But he also has songs in which his voice sounds a lot like other "real" MJ songs. So really, as a believer and more as a fellow MJ fan (and I respect both sides), could you stop asking this "dumb" question every freaking time?
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Now, you may want to watch your tone. Calling people's question dumb? It's as disrespectful as calling other people's answer stupid.

If you think the question is not worth answering, then don't answer. I don't spend time on posts that I deem not worthy of my attention. What you consider dumb is what's helping people understand each other's position. Instead of getting defensive, one can say "I think KYHU sounds like KTF", then people can respond to it. Bumpy asked me where I heard Michael the most, I'm not afraid to say I hear Michael the most in the bridge of KYHU. Then, Grent gave his opinion. It's all good.


IvoDT said:
I know you guys hate the fact/can't stand the fact other people believe the songs are MJ, but we all have our opinions and we are gonna stand by them even if people like it or not. And you guys are doing the same right now correct?
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You know for A FACT that the doubters can't stand the believers? Now, let me tell you that's simply your opinon, not a fact. Honestly, it's statement like that, that divides this community further. Don't act like the doubters are the only people who can't stand people with different opinion. Let's be honest, do you think the believers are totally respectful to the doubters? Do you think the believers can stand people who consider the Cascio tracks crappy?

IvoDT said:
So again, none of the sides knows for 100% sure the songs are MJ or not (And don't give me/other people "crap" that you HEAR it's him or not because other people HEAR it IS him etc, you get what I mean). It's no valid excuse (goes for both, doubters AND believers).
I love the discussion about the songs actually, but looking at the "doubters" going crazy with so called proof against believers without actually having real proof isn't helping anyone. Same goes for the believers, you guys (including me) do NOT have real proof aswell.
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It seems you answer your own question. No one has real proof. And, no one is going crazy. It'd be helpful if people cut out the insinuation that the "doubters" are crazy.

IvoDT said:
I'm not a moderator here but I would love to discuss the songs with you guys and not arguing everyday and everytime why you and others think the songs are fake and why the believers/doubters are wrong. After 1 year and almost 1400 pages we're still nowhere. Like my post stated before, if people really want to do something about this issue it's better to team up and confront the estate/cascio's or whatever works best as a team and get/request some real solid proof or evidence. Only then we can go somewhere...

Felt like saying this and I hope everyone reads it this time. =)
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Two years later, after 2,800 pages, we may still be at the same place. Again, it's the nature of this matter. One will not find an abusolute conclusion unless concrete proof is given. I don't get why people are complaining about we are getting rounds and rounds in circle, yet keep coming back to this thread. Hello? Isn't it expected? I mean if there is some major development in the Cascio tracks controversy, you'll hear it all over the web before coming here. If you are really so sick of it, then take a break. No one is forcing you to come here. I actually quite dislike people coming here just to say "What? You guys are still here? You don't have something better to do?" In my mind, I'm like "Why you even bother to leave a message if you are so bored of it?"

In my opinoin, this thread is one of the very few active threads where people are still focusing on Michael's music, not his daughter's interview, not Frank's book, not the Jacksons. Music is still what I want to talk the most.
 
And you completely fail to see my point.

I clearly stated doubters AND believers many times because BOTH of YOU and these sides are exactly the same. We're all Michael Jackson fans and if you want this issue solved we would have to work together and not insult each other/attack each other by arguing (what you're doing right now).
I respect AND agree with all your points but you simply see me as the enemy and also apparently think I was insulting you/the doubters. That's not my intention because as I said before, we're all MJ fans and I respect everyone's opinion.

What I mean with that question is: If someone BELIEVES it's MJ on the track, the only thing (yes the only thing) I hear you guys say is, Tell me where and which song etc etc. The person decides not to answer, you guys get mad or see it as a "we won". OR, the person answers, you guys make comparisons, and you also say "we win" because they don't sound alike. And here we come with the almighty answer from another believer, me.

I hear MJ on the cascio tracks. How and why? I simply HEAR him. I simply HEAR a difference in the cascio singer's voice and Jason's voice. They are NOT alike to me. There is no need to check which songs sound alike from MJ's albums because even if there are any, it won't solve anything/prove anything just like the comparisons with Jason and the cascio singer. And from what I know it's this simple thing here above that confirms it for me and probably other believers aswell. What helps me in believing? Common sense. And no, I am NOT insulting you guys, I am merely stating that I think Sony/The cascio's wouldn't do such a big conspiracy in faking some songs while MJ had alot of other songs available. It's that easy.

Now you can counter my post again and argue with me but I'm not here for that. I simply want YOU and ME to find an answer together.

Also, sorry if I offended anyone, not my intention.

@ Stella: I heard all songs and demo's and I'm still 100% sure. Yes, even with Fall In Love.

@Arklove: No it's not a dumb question, sorry. Just getting tired of people always giving the same question AND answer. That's the only thing I see here nowadays.

Edit @ love is magical: I am not tired of discussing. Did I not say I loved discussing these songs in my first post? Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 
IvoDT said:
And you completely fail to see my point.
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And, you completely failed to see my point as well. I was trying to say that this discussion is still going on because of the nature of the matter, not because one group of people are crazy. I was trying to point out that it would indeed be crazy if the matter is proven and people are still discussing.

IvoDT said:
I clearly stated doubters AND believers many times because BOTH of YOU and these sides are exactly the same. We're all Michael Jackson fans and if you want this issue solved we would have to work together and not insult each other/attack each other by arguing (what you're doing right now).
I respect AND agree with all your points but you simply see me as the enemy and also apparently think I was insulting you/the doubters. That's not my intention because as I said before, we're all MJ fans and I respect everyone's opinion.
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I can only speak for myself. I totally do not see you as my enemy. I have never let myself get personal. I discuss what you wrote, not who you are. You can't tell me you respect other's opinions when you use adjectives like "crazy" and "dumb". Calling other's question is "dumb" and people who continue this discussion "crazy" are condescending. Your post come across as insulting, even if it's not your intention. So, excuse me if I "apparently" misinterpret your point. English is not my first language, so I understand how things can get lost in translation.

IvoDT said:
What I mean with that question is: If someone BELIEVES it's MJ on the track, the only thing (yes the only thing) I hear you guys say is, Tell me where and which song etc etc. The person decides not to answer, you guys get mad or see it as a "we won". OR, the person answers, you guys make comparisons, and you also say "we win" because they don't sound alike. And here we come with the almighty answer from another believer, me.

I hear MJ on the cascio tracks. How and why? I simply HEAR him. I simply HEAR a difference in the cascio singer's voice and Jason's voice. They are NOT alike to me. There is no need to check which songs sound alike from MJ's albums because even if there are any, it won't solve anything/prove anything just like the comparisons with Jason and the cascio singer. And from what I know it's this simple thing here above that confirms it for me and probably other believers aswell. What helps me in believing? Common sense. And no, I am NOT insulting you guys, I am merely stating that I think Sony/The cascio's wouldn't do such a big conspiracy in faking some songs while MJ had alot of other songs available. It's that easy.

Now you can counter my post again and argue with me but I'm not here for that. I simply want YOU and ME to find an answer together.

Also, sorry if I offended anyone, not my intention.

@ Stella: I heard all songs and demo's and I'm still 100% sure. Yes, even with Fall In Love.

@Arklove: No it's not a dumb question, sorry. Just getting tired of people always giving the same question AND answer. That's the only thing I see here nowadays.

Edit @ love is magical: I am not tired of discussing. Did I not say I loved discussing these songs in my first post? Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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I'm not going to counter your post. Like you said, you hear what you hear. I hear what I hear. I think I hear MJ at times, but a water-down version of MJ. May be I don't have a good enough imagination. I just can't imagine what MJ's voice would sound like with all the effects, editings and supporting vocals. I don't like hearing Michael's songs in such a compromising way.

I don't know about you. But, I don't think we can find an answer here. In fact, I expect the truth will never come out. I see this thread as an outlet to discuss our thoughts and ideas, which don't necessarily lead to anyhere.
 
Yeah, arguing about one more thing, my intention was NOT to insult you guys and like I said before, sorry for that. But, accusing me of not respecting other people's opinions goes a bit far eh? Don't let it get to you. English also isn't my first language. I'm Dutch.

As for the rest,
I'm glad you aren't countering my post and I agree with what you said. I'd rather try and do something about it than giving Sony/The cascio's the chance to never give proof. Even if it's something like trying to directly contact Jason Malachi and get him to atleast SAY something about this mess.

And as for the discussing, I also agree. It's good for people to use it as an outlet including me, but it's what made the community alot weaker in my opinion because using this as an outlet creates many negative comments and in the end MJ fans attack each other. I just hate to see that happen.
 
IvoDT said:
And you completely fail to see my point.

I clearly stated doubters AND believers many times because BOTH of YOU and these sides are exactly the same. We're all Michael Jackson fans and if you want this issue solved we would have to work together and not insult each other/attack each other by arguing (what you're doing right now).
I respect AND agree with all your points but you simply see me as the enemy and also apparently think I was insulting you/the doubters. That's not my intention because as I said before, we're all MJ fans and I respect everyone's opinion.

What I mean with that question is: If someone BELIEVES it's MJ on the track, the only thing (yes the only thing) I hear you guys say is, Tell me where and which song etc etc
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Maybe you feel these questions as an attack and I can understand you get that impression. I've also asked you this, but I honestly didn't want to attack you or something like that. I'm asking these questions, because I'm curious and open to listening again, but maybe this time from your point of view to try to understand why you hear Michael. It's not that I have doubts about what I believe myself, but it's only to try and understand where you come from. And of course, to discuss this further.
.
The person decides not to answer, you guys get mad or see it as a "we won". OR, the person answers, you guys make comparisons, and you also say "we win" because they don't sound alike. And here we come with the almighty answer from another believer, me.
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I hear MJ on the cascio tracks. How and why? I simply HEAR him. I simply HEAR a difference in the cascio singer's voice and Jason's voice. They are NOT alike to me.
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Chamife said:
*crickets*, *pin drop*.....
nonchalant.gif



@Ivo

Grapje Ivo, even in het Nederlands als je het niet erg vindt...

Zou ook graag willen weten WAT je zo overtuigt. Zijn het kleine details? Of een ander bepaald herkenningspunt voor jou?
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First, thanks Ivo for (finally :tease:) answering my question. A tad late, but appreciated.
So...........:D..........

The answer I hear from 'believers' to that question is always like yours, namely "I hear him" (from what I remember, sorry if someone gave another answer, but I can't remember).To me the voice alone isn't enough, because a voice can be altered or sound almost the same. These little trademarks from Michael like tempo of speech, alteration of keys (at the ending of a word or sentence) and also pronuncation: Those are give aways whether it's him or not, to me.
There is no need to check which songs sound alike from MJ's albums because even if there are any, it won't solve anything/prove anything just like the comparisons with Jason and the cascio singer. And from what I know it's this simple thing here above that confirms it for me and probably other believers aswell. What helps me in believing? Common sense. And no, I am NOT insulting you guys, I am merely stating that I think Sony/The cascio's wouldn't do such a big conspiracy in faking some songs while MJ had alot of other songs available. It's that easy
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.
Not perse a conspiracy to me. Could might as well be just a matter of someone with a hell of a lot of nerves and no sense of decency.

Now you can counter my post again and argue with me but I'm not here for that. I simply want YOU and ME to find an answer together.

Also, sorry if I offended anyone, not my intention.

@ Stella: I heard all songs and demo's and I'm still 100% sure. Yes, even with Fall In Love.

@Arklove: No it's not a dumb question, sorry. Just getting tired of people always giving the same question AND answer. That's the only thing I see here nowadays.

Edit @ love is magical: I am not tired of discussing. Did I not say I loved discussing these songs in my first post? Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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And indeed, I'm still here, listening to things going round and round in circles, because I don't want this debate to end. Not that I'm particulary fond of these, but to me it's a little, tiny thing I can do for what I believe is right.
And if there are new developments, I want to know.
 
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I will type a longer response soon chamife =)
But answering your "old" question,
There are in facts tiny details in some of the tracks that reminds me alot of MJ.
Burn Tonight for example has these sounds in it only MJ makes while singing (Not copy pasted imo, but who knows). Just another thing that helps me with that.

Also, for me, I will never ever believe Jasons sang these songs, especially songs like Burn Tonight and KYHU. His voice simply isn't able to do that. I'm even more convinced someone else (not Jason/Not MJ) might have done it, but not Jason.
As for the vibrato, it's very close to Jason, yup. But I'm 1: Not annoyed by it, and 2: Not under the impression it's Jason imitating MJ.
These songs are being called garbage and trash by alot of people while in fact MJ or not, they are really very good tracks (most of em.)

I'll type more later. Busy right now. =)
 
IvoDT said:
Yeah, arguing about one more thing, my intention was NOT to insult you guys and like I said before, sorry for that. But, accusing me of not respecting other people's opinions goes a bit far eh? Don't let it get to you. English also isn't my first language. I'm Dutch.
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Please stop taking things so personally. I did not make any accusation.

I was trying to tell you that you can't say you respect others when you called other's question dumb and insinuated that the people who continue this discussion are crazy. Quite simply, you don't use those derrogatory terms when you want to show people respect.

Remember this line from Blace or White - "Don't tell me you agree with me, when you are kicking dirts in my eyes."

I didn't let your post get to me. I'm just saying how your post came across as disrespectful, even if it's not your intention.

IvoDT said:
As for the rest,
I'm glad you aren't countering my post and I agree with what you said. I'd rather try and do something about it than giving Sony/The cascio's the chance to never give proof. Even if it's something like trying to directly contact Jason Malachi and get him to atleast SAY something about this mess.

And as for the discussing, I also agree. It's good for people to use it as an outlet including me, but it's what made the community alot weaker in my opinion because using this as an outlet creates many negative comments and in the end MJ fans attack each other. I just hate to see that happen.
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This discussion itself will not make the community weaker. Like I said, many people are turned off by the uncertainty or are very disappointed at the products Sony is selling us. And, most importantly, the force who glued us together is gone. This community becomes directionless. Fans can never agree with each other on how to honor Michael's legacy. In order for it to be strong again, we need a project that is truly amazing and worth celebration. The Cirque show is amazing, but it's not as accessible as a CD. Majority of fans who live outside of North America still haven't experienced it.

Moreover, if you enter some threads in the main section, you'll find the dicussions can be even more heated and more negative. In my humble opinion, this Cascio controversy discussion is far from the only source of negative energy.

Frankly, I've been called clueless and stupid in other threads. At times, I feel like taking a break from any MJ online fan forums.
 
And again, I'm not taking things personal, it's just the same damn question being asked way too many times to every believer that ever entered here/other forums. I base my "dumb" question on that and I won't change my opinion about that.

Also, some other people (above your post) like Chamife already explained why the question was asked many times and I would love to get this behind us now. The apology was clear and that's all I have to say on that.

And I agree/don't agree with the community issues. I've seen it all and been everywhere in the big debate and outside the big debate (with the unreleased songs). I'm not one to believe the truth will never come out. If you want it, you gotta do something for it and work for it, imo.
I'll even try to get in contact with Mr. Jason malachi myself if I need to but atleast I'll take action because like other people I want this issue to be solved so we can all continue honouring MJ's legacy with new projects and his music (and the man himself) in general. =)
 
Some doubters did &#8220;do something for it and work for it.&#8221; I believe it has been said quite a few times that a group of people worked together and contacted a working musicologist, but we were told that the musicologist would not offer his opinion unless the matter is being tried at court. In short, we hit a deadend. We didn&#8217;t advertise our efforts here because we didn&#8217;t feel MJJC was the appropriate platform. So, the doubters do not just sit in front of computers and compile comparison audios</SPAN>

Do you think Malachi&#8217;s response would put an end to this? I don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s Malachi, but I still consider myself a doubter. I honestly don&#8217;t hear Michael enough in those tracks. I believe a large amount of computer editing and a sound-alike is hired to fill in the gaps. That sound-alike didn&#8217;t need to be Malachi. The sound-alike could be James Porte. I have no idea. So, Malachi&#8217;s words mean nothing to me. Like I said, I don&#8217;t like to hear Michael&#8217;s music in such compromising way. I said I even think Eddie Cascio may mean well when he decided to publish the songs, but I dislike the final products. </SPAN>

Even if this controversy is resolved, the fan community will still be divided. Why? Because fans can never agree with each other on how to honor the man&#8217;s legacy. We have a group of fans who crave for more and more albums at all cost, doesn&#8217;t matter if it means to dig deep into the bottom of the barrel. We have another group of fans who want to safeguard Michael&#8217;s perfectionist standard. Fans basically argue on anything and everything these days. The force who glued us together is gone. I bet the discussion will get heated again the time when another posthumous album is released, unless the tracklist is going to be extremely strong. I just don&#8217;t get why people attribute the negative energy to only this particular discussion, while igoring the glaring reality that fans never see things eye-to-eye. </SPAN>
 
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