Michael - The Great Album Debate

[KOPV]

"We' as in who?? that is what the science is.. Maybe we should inform the government because they are still using them.. if they find out they'll stop using it.. OMG what if Osama is not really dead too? lol!

 

[mjmax]

Don't be fooled by those comparisons. Of course there are similarities : we're comparing a singer with another singer whose entire talent resides in his uncanny ability to imitate the original singer. What would be surprising is if there were NO similarities.

Kreen seems to be afraid that our comparisons might change some opinions..

Here is what he said:

je crois que je vais montrer mon honnêteté – je ne peux penser à aucune autre chanson de MJ qui sonne beaucoup comme Monster ou BN.
= I'll be honest, I can't find any other MJ songs that sounds like Monster or Breaking News

However he defends that the comparisons are useless because they only prove Jason is a very good imitator. If really he's so good.. why the hell are the Cascio songs so far from MJ and so close to JM ?!? Perfect nonsense that the imitator is better than the original!!

 

[mjmax]

KOPV, do you look for some parts where Michael sings in "All I Need" ?
I'll have dinner in the meantime

 

[KOPV]

mjmax I like how Michael sings Slave To Thr Rhythm lol! I can't say any of the cascio tracks are or are not MJ.. BUT I'll say the leaked songs of the cascio tracks sound less like Michael than the released ones..

 

[love is magical]

"We' as in who?? that is what the science is.. Maybe we should inform the government because they are still using them.. if they find out they'll stop using it.. OMG what if Osama is not really dead too? lol!

There is no need to twist my words. I didn't say SPEAKING VOICE RECOGNITION is unreliable. I said SINGING VOICE RECOGNITION still has a long way to go. If you read my post more closely, you would see I clearly said more time and resources have been committed to develop speech recognition intelligence. "We" refer yo people who have followed this Cascio tracks discussion. It's true that there is no vocal print. How can there be an individual vocal print when our voice is so dynamic. Singing voice is even mire complicated because of factors like training, practice and studio effects. Your sample about the voice of Osama bin Laden is not even a fair comparison. It's like comparing apple to orange.

 

[StellaJackson]

Where do you see that what page cause I just read the credits for Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' and I don't see Eddie Cascio as producer.

Thriller 25 album booklet credits: Background vocals recorded by Angelikson Productions.

Also on For All Time: Additional keyboards.

 

[mjmax]

mjmax I like how Michael sings Slave To Thr Rhythm lol! I can't say any of the cascio tracks are or are not MJ.. BUT I'll say the leaked songs of the cascio tracks sound less like Michael than the released ones..

So I guess Teddy did a pretty good job.. but the fact is, he really did a poor work. :-/

You claim some parts couldn't be sung by Jason. You mentioned the part edited by teddy Riley, in which he pasted some words from Invincible (4:00-4:30 in Monster). So indeed, Jason can't do that, cause it's Michael singing these words.

Could you mention other parts? All I Need is good choice, cause the voice is pretty regular and the song doesn't contain any pasted adlibs, but you can choose any part in any songs...

 

[StellaJackson]

If believers could make comparisons they would.

 

[KOPV]

The fact that our vocal coards are designed in a way that it cannot be exact to any others, creates specific tentions, strains in different spots.. that creates what I would call a fingerprint.. We are not manufactured in a factory where things are built to be identicle.. If you take my voice and your voice, and you can imitate me "identically" when your version of my voice through true testing it will pick up that you pushed your voice differently to sound like mine, and the strain on your voice would be different than mine which can be measured..This might be a poor example but its like when my brother and I work out, I am a semi muscluar guy but my brother is an amature bodybuilder.. When I am benching 315, I am straining my body differently meaning the pattern of my lift will come differently than when he does 315.. If you record the bar being lifted some people wont notice the difference but his lift would have a different "finger print" than mine because we are using different efforts.

 

[mjmax]

If believers could make comparisons they would.

yes but they prefer not to answer than saying "I can't find any comparisons"... how do you call such attitude? Are we seeking the truth together or against each other?

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Thank you for your feedback KOPV. You probably noticed that I didn't only compare the falsetto but many vocal tics that can be found in both Cascio songs and Jason's songs, and not in any Michael songs. I don't think any software in the world can actually erase all Michael's vocal tics, replace them with Jason's trademarks, make the voice sound younger and decrease the vocals capacities... And I don't think either it's possible to mix two voices and make them sound like one. I think Grent explained it very well here:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ate/page1326?p=3540943&viewfull=1#post3540943

If you look in my signature, you'll see a comparison on parts longer than a vibrato. I think it all sounds like Jason, don't you think ?

If you believe Michael is in the song, please give us the exact parts where you hear him. Lets take a song that was not too much edited: "All I Need" for instance. In this case we will not confuse with samples from Michael songs like you did in Monster, cause we claim that Jason is all over the lead vocals.

I hear Michael on all 3 Cascio songs fully.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

2009 I think.

look how Michael's voice changed suddenly in 2007 :

>>> http://www.box.com/s/f3ppaz1vugjzeexli46h

2003 : his voice was ok
2007 : his voice suddenly became 20 years younger and lost any grit and power..
2009 : the king was back.. his voice became normal again.

Like many have stated we have to also remember that others were recorded in studios and the Cascio tracks in a basement others might have not been processed Cascio tracks were processed.

 

[KOPV]

OK OK OK!! I'll admit the only reason I know its not Jason on the tracks is because its me!! lol! Case closedNo maybe I shouldn't joke like that before I get qouted as if I am serious..

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Thriller 25 album booklet credits: Background vocals recorded by Angelikson Productions.

Also on For All Time: Additional keyboards.

I'll check again I was checking the song credits.

Update: Found it !

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

So I guess Teddy did a pretty good job.. but the fact is, he really did a poor work. :-/

You claim some parts couldn't be sung by Jason. You mentioned the part edited by teddy Riley, in which he pasted some words from Invincible (4:00-4:30 in Monster). So indeed, Jason can't do that, cause it's Michael singing these words.

Could you mention other parts? All I Need is good choice, cause the voice is pretty regular and the song doesn't contain any pasted adlibs, but you can choose any part in any songs...

Teddy did NOT edit the whole song he called himself the finisher doesn't that ring a bell ?

 

[StellaJackson]

http://www.box.com/s/x5ptznfnfhxte6b198b7

Same person all the way through.

http://www.box.com/s/3n6t8v0lejsu307r8i4i

Clearly two different people.

 

[StellaJackson]

Teddy did NOT edit the whole song he called himself the finisher doesn't that ring a bell ?

So who do you think pasted the words in from Invincible?

 

[kreen]

Kreen seems to be afraid that our comparisons might change some opinions..

Here is what he said:


However he defends that the comparisons are useless because they only prove Jason is a very good imitator. If really he's so good.. why the hell are the Cascio songs so far from MJ and so close to JM ?!? Perfect nonsense that the imitator is better than the original!!

Yes, but you should translate the rest of what I said : of course I can’t find any other songs where the vocals have the same manipulated, overproduced, unprofessional, guide-vocal-ish tone as the Cascio tracks. But that’s because there are no other songs in the MJ canon that were sung, created, produced and released in the same way as the Cascio songs. We don’t have any other released MJ songs based on incomplete guide vocals, recorded by amateurs in a basement, sung by a MJ who might not have even thought he’d ever use the songs later on, and transformed posthumously into releasable material by an army of producers.

The Cascio tracks are unique in the MJ canon, but not for the reasons the anti-Casco think.

 

[Pentum]

this.


You mean the "why you haunting me, why you stalking me, why you haunting me, why you, why you, etc?

I thought you had been around for that long - the "why" is copy pasted from invincible (including the breathe in). Jason can't do such a strong ad libs. It's a copy paste from the invincible a cappella or multitracks. Also, the words "keep" and "me" in the line "why you keep on stalking me" towards the end are copy pasted out from the invcible a cappella.

You see, this is a tactic they used to fool the listener. And it worked, obviously.

By the way, i can do a quick sample for you showing some of jason's grunt and agression abilities if you would like to hear?

bump......... to KOPV. You said there are stuff towards the end in Monster which u dont think Jason can do. But the ad libs "WHY" are Michael's vocals.

 

[mjmax]

Yes, but you should translate the rest of what I said : of course I can’t find any other songs where the vocals have the same manipulated, overproduced, unprofessional, guide-vocal-ish tone as the Cascio tracks. But that’s because there are no other songs in the MJ canon that were sung, created, produced and released in the same way as the Cascio songs. We don’t have any other released MJ songs based on incomplete guide vocals, recorded by amateurs in a basement, sung by a MJ who might not have even thought he’d ever use the songs later on, and transformed posthumously into releasable material by an army of producers.

The Cascio tracks are unique in the MJ canon, but not for the reasons the anti-Casco think.

So they processed the songs in order to make them sound like Jason Malachi? Good strategy indeed
Is that really the reason why you say the Cascio songs are closer to Jason Malachi than Michael, kreen?

 

[mjmax]

I can't say any of the cascio tracks are or are not MJ.. BUT I'll say the leaked songs of the cascio tracks sound less like Michael than the released ones..

oh.. I thought the processing damaged the vocals. Now the less processed songs sound even less like Michael?

 

[Calisto]

The early mix of Monster that leaked last year contains less processed vocals and sounds even more like Jason Malachi to me.

 

[dam2040]

I hear Michael on all 3 Cascio songs fully.

Really? Are we talking about the same songs?

 

[Calisto]

I must say that I find this "son" might be Jason argument both interesting and far fetched.

My argument is about "ASON" (A-S-O-N), not "SON" (S-O-N). The "A" is important.

Why?

Because Angelikson is a combination of the nickname Michael gave to Eddie - Angel and kson for Jackson. This has been known since 2008 (and there's a post about it on this forum dated back). It ties nicely with Eddie's contribution on Thriller 25 and his future work with Michael - both these songs and alleged London works.

So that "son" is more likely to be a reference to "Jackson" than "Jason".

I'm well aware of the back story.

Now, being objective for a moment, which of the following choices is closest to the name ASON in both spelling and number of letters:

a) Jason
b) Jackson
c) Angelikson

It's a fact that the answer is the first one, but really, the beauty of ASON is that it can represent all three. (And that's a very possible reason why it was chosen by Eddie Cascio/James Porte, which was my original point.)

you realize that's not my argument right? someone else actually spent a lot of time writing a long post about the copyright registrations.

This goes to anyone: feel free to critique/rip apart the rest of my posts (some of which I've updated) regarding the ASON copyright registrations. Links are here, here, and here

 

[kreen]

So they processed the songs in order to make them sound like Jason Malachi?

*sigh* : Jason Malachi has nothing to do with the Cascio songs. He said so himself to the Estate, who are satisfied that the songs are real. Any resemblance is a coincidence, and the effect of you comparing a singer with an impersonator of the very singer you're comparing him with.

I've thought of a good example, actually. Remember when "Free as a Bird" came out, the "new" Beatles song in 1995? Free as a Bird is to the Beatles what the Cascio songs are to Michael Jackson.

 

[StellaJackson]

*sigh* : Jason Malachi has nothing to do with the Cascio songs. He said so himself to the Estate, who are satisfied that the songs are real. Any resemblance is a coincidence, and the effect of you comparing a singer with an impersonator of the very singer you're comparing him with.

I've thought of a good example, actually. Remember when "Free as a Bird" came out, the "new" Beatles song in 1995? Free as a Bird is to the Beatles what the Cascio songs are to Michael Jackson.

Actually Jason didn't deny it. His manager did. They are hardly going to admit it are they?

And there seem to be an awful lot of coincidences here. You talk about Jason as though he is an exact vocal replica. He isn't. There are noticeable differences that can be detected by the trained ear. Those differences are present on the Cascio tracks. We could discuss all day as to the whys and hows but the fact is that the vibrato, accent etc are there.

 

[Grent]

manipulated, overproduced, unprofessional, guide-vocal-ish tone

I like, how that sounds. Awsome.
guide-vocal-ish.

We don’t have any other released MJ songs based on incomplete guide vocals, recorded by amateurs in a basement, sung by a MJ who might not have even thought he’d ever use the songs later on

We can try to do that we any MJ material from interviews and such. We just play it back through a ghetto-blaster, record it through headphones (yes, you can do that) and process it. Does MJ singing Smile during LWMJ on the street sound guide-vocal-ish? Do you think it was recorded what you would call 'professionally'?

 

[kreen]

Actually Jason didn't deny it. His manager did. They are hardly going to admit it are they?

And there seem to be an awful lot of coincidences here. You talk about Jason as though he is an exact vocal replica. He isn't. There are noticeable differences that can be detected by the trained ear. Those differences are present on the Cascio tracks. We could discuss all day as to the whys and hows but the fact is that the vibrato, accent etc are there.

I find it surprising your avatar is the "Immortal" logo, when you are so firmly opposed to the Cascio songs. You know "Monster" is in the show and they're getting money from it. Shouldn't you change your avatar? Because it looks like you're promoting "Immortal".

 

[Lucilla]

I like, how that sounds. Awsome.
guide-vocal-ish.



We can try to do that we any MJ material from interviews and such. We just play it back through a ghetto-blaster, record it through headphones (yes, you can do that) and process it. Does MJ singing Smile during LWMJ on the street sound guide-vocal-ish? Do you think it was recorded what you would call 'professionally'?

The theory of Melodyne/Basement combination should be proven.
I think it would be a great if we could hear the result of a singer (any singer) recording in the same conditions MJ supposedly did and see how messed up that recording can turn out.
Because I really don’t understand why singing on the outside while walking, taking care of your little children and holding an umbrella makes your voice (especially the vibrato) sound better than singing in a studio in “poor conditions”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U9G9xReMSw
Maybe if MJ could have recorded those songs in Cascio’s patio the result would have been better?

 

[kreen]

I like, how that sounds. Awsome.
guide-vocal-ish.



We can try to do that we any MJ material from interviews and such. We just play it back through a ghetto-blaster, record it through headphones (yes, you can do that) and process it. Does MJ singing Smile during LWMJ on the street sound guide-vocal-ish? Do you think it was recorded what you would call 'professionally'?

Actually, we have a TON of examples where MJ's voice sounds unlike "usual MJ", to the point where there has been discussion before his death on some of the most surprising examples, from his vocals on "2000 Watts" and "Beautiful Girl" (did he have a cold when he sang that?), to how he sounded at the This Is It press conference. And if you can't think of examples where MJ's vocals have been supbar in a non-studio environment, can I direct you to some of his performances of WBSS during the HIStory tour? Or that time he struggled to sing even a few lines of We are the World at some Awards Show? Or when he sings some Doobie Brothers lyrics to Liz Taylor over the phone? Or "The Lost Children" with his kids?

I think part of the anti-Cascio feeling also comes from this irrational idea that some fans have : surely MJ can't sound THAT weak and ordinary. Well, yes, he could, especially near the end of his life. One would think that the events of the past few years would disillusion fans of the whole "MJ is god" thing.