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Michael - The Great Album Debate

ADKIc3mAnX said:
It would be nice if we can get a "Professionals" opinion and not fans.


* A professional knows more about this than anyone here and they do this for a living.

MJJC you think you guys might be able to arrange that ?
Think about it, it can end the war between believers & doubters once and for all.
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We are the professionals. No one could possibly know more about this tha the people in this forum. Michael is my life. I AM an expert. Give the fans more crrdit
 
If we hire a professional, we must not stuff them with biases of both sides. I remember on another forum someone contacted a professional musicologist who warned him about how one's opinion affects who they think of their voice. If we say, however "we know MJ's voice" that is a generalization towards the whole fanbase.

For me, it was the THOUGHT of Latoya saying "it doesn't sound like him" DAYS before the release that made me think the song will be Malachi. There was also Jason posting on this forum and hinting at stuff in 2008; reading that post I had feared the next album would be about "guessing who's singing, Jason or MJ" but I tried HOPING it wasn't true. It was dream the night I had before the Estate made its statement that I "saw" the statement and when I woke up it was exactly as I thought it would be, and the effects were as I "predicted".
 
azsummergirl said:
We are the professionals. No one could possibly know more about this tha the people in this forum. Michael is my life. I AM an expert. Give the fans more crrdit
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Umm I mean people that know how this stuff works not fans like I said before.

Professionals work on this they know how it works we believers or doubters will never come up with a resolution to this so it would be better for someone who is NOT a fan (which is pretty tough to find) help us with this.


Example:

Doubter: It's not MJ because it doesn't sound like him.

Believer: It is MJ and the producers are to blame for over producing the tracks.

Doubter: Your wrong.

Believer: No you are.

Professional: It is MJ or it isn't MJ and this is why.........


See why it would help to have a pro.
 
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While I will never change my opinion about this (I'm a Believer) and while being very tired from the ongoing discussions and conspiracy there is indeed only 1 way to stop the whole thing.

That thing is Sony/The Estate giving proof. That proof can be anything.
Instead of insulting each other all day and everyday and discussing things so pointless I can slap myself for it you all should just "stand together" (Including us, believers) and demand some freaking proof already.

The reason I haven't seen Sony/The Estate giving proof is because the issue isn't as big as everyone thinks.
If people would get this issue in the newspapers/news THEN it's a big issue and that would get them to give proof.
Don't ask them one on one because as we have seen we won't get any answers.

It's as simple as that, in my honest opinion.
 
KOPV said:
When I listen to Best Of Joy and compare it to Keep Your Head Up its the much much closer than anything i could compare to Jason Malachi.. When I hear Jason I don't correlate his voice to Michaels, he does not sound that much like him..
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Finally someone who suggests a comparison with Michael Jackson... !! :)

comparison with Best Of Joy :
>>> http://www.box.com/s/3n6t8v0lejsu307r8i4i

comparison with Jason Malachi :
>>> http://www.box.com/s/x5ptznfnfhxte6b198b7

Keep Your Head Up much much closer than anything you could compare to Jason Malachi.. really?
 
Calisto said:
I wouldn't underestimate their egos/recklessness. Think of the word "ASON" as like a little "thank you" to Jason for his uncredited efforts. And if Eddie and James were ever asked about this publicly, they could of course just say "No, it's short for Angelikson" as a cover.
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I must say that I find this "son" might be Jason argument both interesting and far fetched.

Why?

Because Angelikson is a combination of the nickname Michael gave to Eddie - Angel and kson for Jackson. This has been known since 2008 (and there's a post about it on this forum dated back). It ties nicely with Eddie's contribution on Thriller 25 and his future work with Michael - both these songs and alleged London works.

So that "son" is more likely to be a reference to "Jackson" than "Jason".
 
ivy said:
So that "son" is more likely to be a reference to "Jackson" than "Jason".
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because ASON represents 4/5 of the letters present in JASON whereas only 4/7 of JACKSON :D

Honestly.. I'm surprised you waste your time on this minor detail.. it's not our main argument, you know? :)
 
mjmax said:
because ASON represents 4/5 of the letters present in JASON whereas only 4/7 of JACKSON :D

Honestly.. I'm surprised you waste your time on this minor detail.. it's not our main argument, you know? :)
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you realize that's not my argument right? someone else actually spent a lot of time writing a long post about the copyright registrations.
 
ivy said:
you realize that's not my argument right? someone else actually spent a lot of time writing a long post about the copyright registrations.
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I realize well.. I read the thread like you. :)
 
mjmax said:
I realize well.. I read the thread like you. :)
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good. I was confused because I didn't see you quote the actual poster that brought up the topic and say that it's not important.
 
Grent said:
Excellent.
KYHU is such an insult ... such an insult. Unbelievable.
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pentum and TPIMaster provided most of the comparisons here, I just gathered them. Thanks a lot to them :)

ps: KOPV, did you see the videos I sent in private? Your feedback?
 
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Grent said:
Being a professional doesn't matter.
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To you it clearly does matter. You've made it crystal clear that you strongly believe you've "unmasked" the alleged fraud thanks to your profession. Yet you're not complying with scientific methods which is strange considering you want to be taken seriously. You still fail to realize or accept that your assumptions are all based on 3 released tracks and stolen files that all contain a voice that is in a far advanced state after it has already been processed in order to be used for mixing by Sony's hired engineers. You even deny that processing has been applied onto the voice on these tracks - simply because according to you the voice shall be untouched. It seems like you simply want to exclude the processing by all means.
You have neither access to any raw material nor could you have a basis for any substantive taking of evidence.


You're failing to admit your assumptions are based on ignorance solely. And where does ignorance lead to? Prejudices...


Grent said:
Excellent.
KYHU is such an insult ... such an insult. Unbelievable.
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Grent said:
EXACTLY ! You can clearly hear a person trying hard here (on all 12 !!). What's the excuse? Processing ... processing made an uninspired MJ guide vocal to a JM-sounding giving his best vocal?

The guide vocal excuse is complete BS. [...]
All those excuses fall apart.
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With all respect, you're missing objectivity and mistaking it with guesswork. You're not an authority to bring any more clues into this establishment of the truth.
 
I JUUSST watched the vids! and I appreciate the fact you would send them..I've heard alot of comparisons (recently re-listened to them), some (not all) were biase comparisions but there are simularities I will say again.. The falsettos are very much alike in instances, pronounciations, and SOME grunts.. I would still have to believe that Michaels voice are in these released songs. To me its possible that the release tracks where sounds more like full out Jason to me then the release, that they must have weaved Michaels voice into the finish production after.. I notice some people using my quotes like as if I believe the songs are MJ hands down etc.. But I have been stating that I have to keep an open eye to ALL possiblities.. And from what I hear, I hear parts of songs that I do not believe can be Jason.. Which would also mean there are parts that definatly could be..PS what I mean biase comparison is when a vocal is compared from the album to Jason its often (Not so much yours mjmax) a great comparison.. Taking a vibratto and showing how simular it is, finding pronounciations and seeing how simular, a falsetto and comparing another falsetto.. Then when its compared to Michael I heard comparisons with lower registers to a falsetto, soft vocals to agressive.. things like that!!
 
Korgnex said:
To you it clearly does matter. You've made it crystal clear that you strongly believe you've "unmasked" the alleged fraud thanks to your profession. Yet you're not complying with scientific methods which is strange considering you want to be taken seriously. You still fail to realize or accept that your assumptions are all based on 3 released tracks and stolen files that all contain a voice that is in a far advanced state after it has already been processed in order to be used for mixing by Sony's hired engineers. You even deny that processing has been applied onto the voice on these tracks - simply because according to you the voice shall be untouched. It seems like you simply want to exclude the processing by all means.
You have neither access to any raw material nor could you have a basis for any substantive taking of evidence.


You're failing to admit your assumptions are based on ignorance solely. And where does ignorance lead to? Prejudices...







With all respect, you're missing objectivity and mistaking it with guesswork. You're not an authority to bring any more clues into this establishment of the truth.
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Can we all agree that all of the audio comparisons that are used so often by the anti-Cascio people are not scientific? I mean, would even their proponents agree that, whatever their merits, those comparisons have not scientific, as in conclusive, value?
 
to this idea that professional opinion does not matter.. It really really does.. We have to put at least some beliefe in a FORENSIC SCIENC!! A Forensic Musicologist are scientists that are trained to find the vocal fingerprint of a person.. They are used in murder cases, and even used to authenticate Osama Bin Ladens voice and surroundings at times..To exclude a Forensic science is like when they tell you this persons fingerprint is on the gun, us saying no its not that persons hands are bigger and would leave a bigger scuff.. Every voice creates specific shapes and waves (its authentic to that person), Even if Jason was able to trick us nd get his voice seemingly identicle it would make different waves and shapes because he would have to put a different effort and push with his voice than the natural singer..Impersonators that would fool us, have to ULTER there voice (making new effects to there shapes) to sound like a person, where as the original speaker would fallow the same shaped pattern and overlay..And a voice creates two sounds when we speak.. The sound prominant that we hear and second an overtone that is an octave higher (That the human ear does not pick up) If a FORENSIC musicologist states its Michael Jackson stating it is Michael Jackons fingerprinted voice, than we have to consider that.. And that alone is a bold statement, because if this was a crime case, the finger print is there.. case close.. all I am saying is we have to CONSIDER!In addition, the multiple producers that have worked with Michael, whos sole job was to hear his voice, tell him when he's off.. part of his job would to be a basic critic to his voice.. that persons ear should matter aswell..just a thought!
 
Thank you for your feedback KOPV. You probably noticed that I didn't only compare the falsetto but many vocal tics that can be found in both Cascio songs and Jason's songs, and not in any Michael songs. I don't think any software in the world can actually erase all Michael's vocal tics, replace them with Jason's trademarks, make the voice sound younger and decrease the vocals capacities... And I don't think either it's possible to mix two voices and make them sound like one. I think Grent explained it very well here:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ate/page1326?p=3540943&viewfull=1#post3540943

If you look in my signature, you'll see a comparison on parts longer than a vibrato. I think it all sounds like Jason, don't you think ?

If you believe Michael is in the song, please give us the exact parts where you hear him. Lets take a song that was not too much edited: "All I Need" for instance. In this case we will not confuse with samples from Michael songs like you did in Monster, cause we claim that Jason is all over the lead vocals.
 
KOPV said:
I JUUSST watched the vids! and I appreciate the fact you would send them..I've heard alot of comparisons (recently re-listened to them), some (not all) were biase comparisions but there are simularities I will say again..
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Don't be fooled by those comparisons. Of course there are similarities : we're comparing a singer with another singer whose entire talent resides in his uncanny ability to imitate the original singer. What would be surprising is if there were NO similarities.
 
The thing is....The comparisons we use may not hold up in court, but it's a way to say, 'Hey, listen to this....We're conflicted as to who we're listening to...This may help...Listen to the similarities between the Cascio singer and Jason Malachi...'....We also have comparisons to show the DIFFERENCES between Michael's voice and the Cascio singer....All around, we are TRYING to figure this out...For myself, I don't need the comparisons and if I had never heard them, I STILL wouldn't think it's Michael singing...I don't care WHO is impersonating him, I just feel deep in my heart and listening ability that this ISN'T Michael singing...

As for a voice print, I thought it was concluded that there is no such thing as a voice print? Where did any musicologist say that this is Michael's voice print? Why are we putting so much faith in a musicologist that has supposedly tested these vocals? Because a vague statement by the estate says so? We haven't even seen the test results! So why are we blindingly putting our faith in these so called tests, yet the comparisons we make as fans to try to figure things out get shoved into the unimportant drawer? I never once believed or said that these comparisons are the proof to end all debate....However, neither are these so-called tests that we all cling on to for dear life that say, YES, it MUST be Michael singing because a 'professional' (whose results we haven't seen published at all) say it's so? Who are these 'best musicologists in the world'? ...I'll start to give these 'professionals' some credibility as soon as I see who the hell they even are....

This is all just my opinion, of course :D
 
kreen said:
Don't be fooled by those comparisons. Of course there are similarities : we're comparing a singer with another singer whose entire talent resides in his uncanny ability to imitate the original singer. What would be surprising is if there were NO similarities.
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LOL!

No, no! My god is better than yours!!
 
^ I didn't say so much faith/.. I said should consider.. that's it!!
 
KOPV said:
^ I didn't say so much faith/.. I said should consider.. that's it!!
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Arky is right. We pretty much have concluded that there is no such thing, called vocal print. Unlike finger print, which is an unique identifier, human voice is too dynamic. Singing voice recognition is still an elusive field. Unlike, speaking voice recognition, relatively limited resources have been spent on developing the technology. What is the practical potential of singing voice recognition? How many singing murderer, terrorist or raper in the real world? Also, there are many limitations. In order for the scientist to perform an analysis, the singing voice sample had to be recorded in a controlled environment. The sample needs to be a capella sans any effects - clean vocals. There was actually a very interesting discussion on this topic at MaxJax months ago. Korgnex, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. My memory can be faulty at times.
 
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