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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Has anyone here seen protools being used? has used melodyne? I'm sure some of you have!! NOW!

When I state simularities to Butterflies its the breathing techniques and patterns used.. That is it... quality of course is not the same, i've said that.. But of course in a debate people like chosing what thart they want to hear..

If you take a persons vocals (even Michaels) and you use drowning effects and noise gates it will not only take out background sound it will take the soul out of the voice.. That is the main difference.. We know the voice on MICHAEL sound like Michael but does have this "off" sound, not a powerful authentic voice.. What I am saying that it is VERY VERY possible to be caused by drowning and Noise Gates..

When I compare 3 sounds.. MJ / JASON/ 'MICHAEL' album.. There are 3 different sounds.. Jason, just simply does not sound like MJ.. the MICHAEL album does sound much closer to what we know of Michael. It is more believable that the voice is Michaels because of the simularities (considering the drowning/noise gate effect) in the voice..

I do hear simular singing tactics in Jason but that could be many things.. Like I MENT in the first place is Jason has modeled all of his vocals after the breathing tactics on Butterflies.. Michael could have used that same breathing tactics as he has before, but we correlate it to Jason because he ALWAYS does that.. Also the vibratto is tightly edited as Jasons are..

Now another theory to consider that i mentioned yesterday is that People can use a persons voice and someone else sings a song and it will paste the voice over the other persons vocals.. It is possible that Jason sang and Michaels voice was layed over his.. Meaning we hear Michaels voice, but Jason is the one singing the lyrics..
 
KOPV: Please listen closely to this: http://hulkshare.com/pt8pkpi6n3ej


Doesn't Jason's voice sound closer to the Cascio singer?

And please understand that Jason's vibrato is NOT edited in any way in his songs. He can do the goat whenever he wants to. This can be proven by listening to his live performances.
 
KOPV said:
If you take a persons vocals (even Michaels) and you use drowning effects and noise gates it will not only take out background sound it will take the soul out of the voice.. That is the main difference.. We know the voice on MICHAEL sound like Michael but does have this "off" sound, not a powerful authentic voice.. What I am saying that it is VERY VERY possible to be caused by drowning and Noise Gates..
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Not at all ! I am using the most powerful noise filters almost every day. When you go too far, it sounds different. It doesn't change vibrato or pronounciation. Also there is no whining introduced. Also listen to the BN acapella. The vocal is pretty clean and does not sound like heavily filtered or gated. Not at all. And you can clearly hear a woman in the background once or twice.

Now another theory to consider that i mentioned yesterday is that People can use a persons voice and someone else sings a song and it will paste the voice over the other persons vocals.. It is possible that Jason sang and Michaels voice was layed over his.. Meaning we hear Michaels voice, but Jason is the one singing the lyrics..
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There is such technology. But it's not so far developed.
And to be honest. This sounds a bit adventurous.
 
KOPV said:
Has anyone here seen protools being used? has used melodyne? I'm sure some of you have!! NOW!

When I state simularities to Butterflies its the breathing techniques and patterns used.. That is it... quality of course is not the same, i've said that.. But of course in a debate people like chosing what thart they want to hear..

If you take a persons vocals (even Michaels) and you use drowning effects and noise gates it will not only take out background sound it will take the soul out of the voice.. That is the main difference.. We know the voice on MICHAEL sound like Michael but does have this "off" sound, not a powerful authentic voice.. What I am saying that it is VERY VERY possible to be caused by drowning and Noise Gates..

When I compare 3 sounds.. MJ / JASON/ 'MICHAEL' album.. There are 3 different sounds.. Jason, just simply does not sound like MJ.. the MICHAEL album does sound much closer to what we know of Michael. It is more believable that the voice is Michaels because of the simularities (considering the drowning/noise gate effect) in the voice..

I do hear simular singing tactics in Jason but that could be many things.. Like I MENT in the first place is Jason has modeled all of his vocals after the breathing tactics on Butterflies.. Michael could have used that same breathing tactics as he has before, but we correlate it to Jason because he ALWAYS does that.. Also the vibratto is tightly edited as Jasons are..

Now another theory to consider that i mentioned yesterday is that People can use a persons voice and someone else sings a song and it will paste the voice over the other persons vocals.. It is possible that Jason sang and Michaels voice was layed over his.. Meaning we hear Michaels voice, but Jason is the one singing the lyrics..
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Ok..have to let this idea sink in for a while..:D

When you mentioned similarities in breathing technique between Jason and Michael in Butterflies I linked it to the perfect timing and laid back way it was sung, and my first reaction was: No way!! I'm not sure I can judge the breathing techniques, as I don't know a thing about that. It's something that I never paid any attention to. The breathing techniques of Michael and Malachi, I mean.
Also want to add that in my case it's not a matter of chosing what I want to hear, but more often responding to something I do understand (or think I understand, not always see the context of a whole post, but I trust on peeps to correct me:D). Not that I'm dumb, but it's because English isn't my first language. I don't like to use this as an excuse, but I don't want to be misunderstood because of that either.

I think your posts are very interesting KOPV!!..:)

And no, I have no experience with melodyne or any transformingtechnique...in case you hadn't noticed yet, lol. I find it highly interesting though.
 
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Ya I hear it!! it does sound alike.. That I am not so much denying.. Infact I have been saying I don't know what really happened and my main point is to have people open to all options....

I do hear alot of simularities in the first portion of Keep Your Head Up and the begining of Best Of Joy (prior to higher pitch comes in) aswell..

If I listem to the first portion maybe 40 seconds of Keep Your Head Up and switch it to Best Of Joy It sounds very simular aswell..

The basic voice of Jasons can have its simularities in Michaels (at times) but there aspects of vocals like higher pitch sounds, and agressive tones that Jason has not been able to do..

If I listen to 4 minute and on with Monster there I cannot believe that Jason can do those vocals.. Now of course that could have been MJ recording, for another song, or the only complete sounding version he did on Monster..

The whole thing is suspicious to me for the same reason it is for you! I just can't state anything as I know as a fact and have to exlore all options or I wont be open minded for the full truth..


It's even suspicious to me why they had to sample Earth Song in the end of Keep Your Head Up! But then again Lenny Kravits sampled We've Had Enough for I Cant Make It (Another Day)
 
KOPV said:
Ya I hear it!! it does sound alike.. That I am not so much denying.. Infact I have been saying I don't know what really happened and my main point is to have people open to all options....

I do hear alot of simularities in the first portion of Keep Your Head Up and the begining of Best Of Joy (prior to higher pitch comes in) aswell..

If I listem to the first portion maybe 40 seconds of Keep Your Head Up and switch it to Best Of Joy It sounds very simular aswell..

The basic voice of Jasons can have its simularities in Michaels (at times) but there aspects of vocals like higher pitch sounds, and agressive tones that Jason has not been able to do..

If I listen to 4 minute and on with Monster there I cannot believe that Jason can do those vocals.. Now of course that could have been MJ recording, for another song, or the only complete sounding version he did on Monster..

The whole thing is suspicious to me for the same reason it is for you! I just can't state anything as I know as a fact and have to exlore all options or I wont be open minded for the full truth..


It's even suspicious to me why they had to sample Earth Song in the end of Keep Your Head Up! But then again Lenny Kravits sampled We've Had Enough for I Cant Make It (Another Day)
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Tell me what vocals, and I'll find vocals in Jason's songs that sounds the same.
 
Monster - 4-4:30 all those adlibs... the agression.. I've heard jason do agression and I don't think it sounds like the agression on Monster
 
KOPV said:
Monster - 4-4:30 all those adlibs... the agression.. I've heard jason do agression and I don't think it sounds like the agression on Monster
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You mean the "WHY you haunting me, WHY you stalking me, WHY you haunting me, WHY you, WHY you, etc?

I thought you had been around for that long - the "WHY" is copy pasted from Invincible (including the breathe in). Jason can't do such a strong ad libs. It's a copy paste from the Invincible a cappella or multitracks. Also, the words "KEEP" and "ME" in the line "Why you keep on stalking me" towards the end are copy pasted out from the Invcible a cappella.

You see, this is a tactic they used to fool the listener. And it worked, obviously.

By the way, I can do a quick sample for you showing some of Jason's grunt and agression abilities if you would like to hear.
 
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Kreen, I haven't forgotten about your question! After months of pondering about this very issue myself, I think I might finally have an answer to the registration puzzle.

DISCLAIMER: WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY MAY BE CONFUSING AND WRONG.

- - -

1. "MJ Song Book 2009 #1" is largely irrelevant. Whatever it contains has little to no relation to the suspicious songs we know today. No "swapping" was ever done. The file has basically been a distraction all this time.

2. The sound recordings of the 12 songs in question were never copyrighted, and from what I understand, they don't need to be. See, as long as Angelikson Productions copyrighted the written lyrics and melodies used throughout all 12 recordings (which they did), the sound recordings themselves would then still be protected. (So for example, when Jab Me Music removes "Burn 2 Nite" from YouTube, it's because of the copyrighted lyrics and musical arrangements contained within the audio, not because of the audio itself.)

3. Out of the 12 songs, eight or nine of them were co-written by Eddie Cascio, James Porte and "Michael Jackson," and were therefore registered together in a single file. (I'll explain this further in a moment.) The remaining three or four songs were co-written only by Eddie and James, and were therefore registered together in a second file. (Basically, if all 12 songs had matching composer credits, they would have been bundled together in one compilation, but because of the differences in authorship [read: EC, JP & MJ vs. EC & JP], the 12 songs legally had to be split into two separate copyright filings.)

4. The two copyright registrations (which again, don't contain any audio) were both filed on March 18, 2010, which would be nine months after Michael Jackson's death, five months after the release of "This Is It," and just two days after Sony Music made the $200 million deal with the Estate.

5. The names of the copyright registrations are "ASON COMPILATION 9 of 13" and "ASon Compilation 4 of 13." You'll notice that they're the only two music-related filings by Eddie and James to have a creation date of 2007, which of course, is the year the songs were supposed to have been recorded in. (For comparison, only the year 2009 appears in the "MJ Song Book" file.) Also, the name "Ason" may be a clever nod to both "Angelikson" and "Jason."

6. Now, some of you might be thinking, "But wait! The BMI registrations for the Cascio tracks name MJ as a co-writer for all 12 songs, so how could the U.S. copyright filings only credit him on eight or nine of them?" Well, apparently it's legally doable. Check out the BMI information for "Whatever Happens." Now compare it to the same song's U.S. copyright registration. See how Michael Jackson's name is missing from the latter?

7. Considering both registrations feature the number "13" in the title, it's possible that there's a 13th song that for whatever reason never made it into the hands of the Estate or Sony Music. (Perhaps vocals weren't recorded for it?)

- - -

So, there you go.

Edit: Followup posts here and here.
 
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It would be nice if we can get a "Professionals" opinion and not fans.


* A professional knows more about this than anyone here and they do this for a living.

MJJC you think you guys might be able to arrange that ?
Think about it, it can end the war between believers & doubters once and for all.
 
^ That would be nice, but as a fan base at large the numerous experts and people that do it for a living obviously don't know what they are talking about according to some fans..
 
KOPV said:
^ That would be nice, but as a fan base at large the numerous experts and people that do it for a living obviously don't know what they are talking about according to some fans..
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And I'll be waiting for your answers.
 
^^ LOL! I'm sorry, but the last thing we need is a 'professional' to tell us who we're listening to...

That's cool if that is what will satisfy you, but that's a no-go for me...
 
What I can say for sure is I am still waiting for the dame "Secret Work Tapes".................... That is the closest thing to a conclusion I think we can find
 
Calisto;3548103 said:
Kreen, I haven't forgotten about your question! After months of pondering this very issue myself, I think I may finally have an answer to the registration puzzle.

DISCLAIMER: WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY MAY BE CONFUSING AND WRONG.

- - -

1. "MJ Song Book 2009 #1" is irrelevant. Whatever it contains has little to no relation with the suspect songs we know today. No "swapping" was ever done. The file has basically been a distraction all this time.

2. The sound recordings of the 12 songs in question were never copyrighted, and from what I understand, don't need to be. See, as long as Angelikson Productions copyrights the "written down" lyrics and melodies used throughout all 12 recordings, the sound recordings themselves would then still be protected. (So for example, when Jab Me Music removes "Burn 2 Nite" from YouTube, it's because of the copyrighted lyrics and musical arrangements, not because of the audio.)

3. Eight to nine of the "written down" songs were co-written by Eddie Cascio, James Porte and "Michael Jackson," and were therefore registered together in a single file. The remaining three to four songs were co-written by just Eddie and James, and so were registered together in a second file. (Basically, if all 12 songs had matching composer credits, they would have been bundled together in one compilation, but because of the difference in authorship just highlighted above, the 12 songs legally had to be split into two separate copyright filings.)

4. The two copyright files (which again, only contain the "written down" songs) were registered nine months after Michael Jackson's death, five months after the release of "This Is It," and just two days after Sony Music made the $200,000,000 deal with the Estate.

5. The names of the copyright registrations are "ASON COMPILATION 9 of 13" and "Ason Compilation 4 of 13." You'll notice that they're the only two music-related filings by Eddie and James to have a creation date of 2007, which of course, is the year the songs were supposed to have been recorded in. (In comparison, only the year 2009 appears in the "MJ Song Book" filing.) Also, the word "Ason" may be a clever nod to both "Angelikson" and "Jason."

6. Now, some of you might be thinking "But wait! The BMI registrations for the Cascio tracks name MJ as a co-writer for all 12 songs, so how could the U.S. copyright filings only credit him on eight or nine of them?" Well, apparently it doesn't matter. Check out the BMI information for "Whatever Happens," now compare it to the same song's U.S. copyright registration. See how Michael Jackson's missing from the latter?

7. Considering both registration files have the number "13" in the title, it's possible that there's a 13th song that for whatever reason was either never recorded or never made it into the hands of the Estate or Sony Music.

- - -

So, there you go.
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Thank you : that's what I call discussing rationally and objectively.

Regarding this theory, the problem, I guess, is that it is based on a very large number of assumptions.

1- You can’t copyright air, so the MJ Song Book has got to be something. It was registered two days after MJ’s death, so whatever it is, it is something that, even in the chaos and heartbreak surrounding MJ’s death, Eddie Cascio felt the need to register and protect. The title indicates it has something to do with songs, and MJ.

2- Your assumption that some of the Cascio tracks feature MJ as co-credited songwriter, while others don’t, is especially problematic: if MJ never sung those songs, then it’s all the more true he didn’t write them. Why would Cascio/Porte claim MJ co-wrote some songs, and not others, but still – as far as BMI is concerned – say he co-wrote all of them? In addition, this would imply acceptance by the Estate that MJ really did co-write some songs, but didn’t touch others, for which they would require an explanation.

3- There is no reason to associate those later ASON entries with anything MJ-related.

4- If they were trying to pull a fast one on the music industry/fan base, I don’t think they would include the impersonator’s name (Jason) in the title of their registrations! (ASON surely stands for AngelickSON).

5- There is no indication that there are 13 MJ/Cascio songs.

I think that you’re overreaching in trying to “fit” the 12 Cascio songs into other entries. It’s infinitely more probable to assume the 12 MJ/Cascio songs are indeed in that MJ Song Book.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
It would be nice if we can get a "Professionals" opinion and not fans.


* A professional knows more about this than anyone here and they do this for a living.

MJJC you think you guys might be able to arrange that ?
Think about it, it can end the war between believers & doubters once and for all.
Click to expand...

I guess we could start a thread on the stevehoffman.tv forum, which is dedicated to audiophiles and technically-minded people. Lots of professionals/hard-core audio people there.

There's also the Gearslutz forum, dedicated to sound engineering.
 
Pentum said:
You see, this is a tactic they used to fool the listener. And it worked, obviously.

.
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Yeah. Or, it could be what they've been saying publicly from the very beginning : bits and pieces were added to the songs to make them more complete and releasable. Which makes enormous sense, and explains everything.

By the way, All I Need doesn't have any ad-libs, does it? And therefore, no added bits from other MJ songs? So how do you reconcile this with your theory that they added "real" MJ parts to fool the listener? Casio/Porte had no way of knowing which of their songs would be included on the album, and were thus ready to have "All I Need" released as a MJ song, even though only their so-called impersonator sings on it. According to your theory, they should have added MJ bits to that song also.
 
If we could just see file dates it would tell us so much.. If it states 2007, we know its Michael..

We do know for sure that Michael stayed with the Cascios for a few months the last quarter of 2007 and used the studio.. How much, and if they were for these songs we cannot know for sure.. at least not yet!

Some people thought a part of the reason he stayed with the cascios is to work with Akon which has close ties to New Jersey and would make it convenient to work together.. I am not sure if this is part is true but I read somewhere that wbss remix was recorded in the cascio home.. I wont put my name to that portion but, i've read it..
 
kreen said:
By the way, All I Need doesn't have any ad-libs, does it? And therefore, no added bits from other MJ songs? So how do you reconcile this with your theory that they added "real" MJ parts to fool the listener?
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The first seconds of "All i need" are a copy of "You are not alone" and also "Imagine" (John Lennon).
 
Being a professional doesn't matter.
I make money using (also) Melodyne.
I graduated from university as master of arts in musicology. Therefore I am a musicologist. My thesis was about music production software.
On here that counts nothing. And that's how it should be. I'm not better than anyone else. Everyone has a job, and everyone else on the internet knows better. :)
But in the future I'm gonna show you some numbers that don't lie.
 
KOPV said:
If we could just see file dates it would tell us so much.. If it states 2007, we know its Michael..

We do know for sure that Michael stayed with the Cascios for a few months the last quarter of 2007 and used the studio.. How much, and if they were for these songs we cannot know for sure.. at least not yet!

Some people thought a part of the reason he stayed with the cascios is to work with Akon which has close ties to New Jersey and would make it convenient to work together.. I am not sure if this is part is true but I read somewhere that wbss remix was recorded in the cascio home.. I wont put my name to that portion but, i've read it..
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It was indeed recorded there. See Thriller 25 credits. What file dates are you referring to?
 
KOPV said:
answer to what? Did I miss a question?
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This.


KOPV said:
Monster - 4-4:30 all those adlibs... the agression.. I've heard jason do agression and I don't think it sounds like the agression on Monster
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You mean the "WHY you haunting me, WHY you stalking me, WHY you haunting me, WHY you, WHY you, etc?

I thought you had been around for that long - the "WHY" is copy pasted from Invincible (including the breathe in). Jason can't do such a strong ad libs. It's a copy paste from the Invincible a cappella or multitracks. Also, the words "KEEP" and "ME" in the line "Why you keep on stalking me" towards the end are copy pasted out from the Invcible a cappella.

You see, this is a tactic they used to fool the listener. And it worked, obviously.

By the way, I can do a quick sample for you showing some of Jason's grunt and agression abilities if you would like to hear.
 
kreen;3548164 said:
1- You can’t copyright air, so the MJ Song Book has got to be something. It was registered two days after MJ’s death, so whatever it is, it is something that, even in the chaos and heartbreak surrounding MJ’s death, Eddie Cascio felt the need to register and protect. The title indicates it has something to do with songs, and MJ.
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Right. I'm not quite sure what the 2009 registration is yet. Maybe it's the James Porte recordings that Roger Friedman supposedly heard, and maybe it contains a Michael Jackson vocal somewhere. (That would explain why Mike has a "performance" authorship on the filing.)

kreen said:
2- Your assumption that some of the Cascio tracks feature MJ as co-credited songwriter, while others don’t, is especially problematic: if MJ never sung those songs, then it’s all the more true he didn’t write them. Why would Cascio/Porte claim MJ co-wrote some songs, and not others, but still – as far as BMI is concerned – say he co-wrote all of them? In addition, this would imply acceptance by the Estate that MJ really did co-write some songs, but didn’t touch others, for which they would require an explanation.
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I think the reason why three or four of the songs don't contain an MJ credit on the U.S. copyright form is because Eddie and James had already previously registered the same music and lyrics without an MJ credit. (See the 2005 "Soldier Boy" filing for example.)

As for the BMI versions of the same three or four songs, Michael's name was probably added to them for royalty purposes. (Someone feel free to correct me here.)

kreen said:
3- There is no reason to associate those later ASON entries with anything MJ-related.
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Yes there is. Remember, both ASON files were registered on the same day (which I believe is the only time Eddie and James have ever done such a thing). Both ASON files feature matching creation dates (2007). Both ASON files were registered just two days after the Estate/Sony Music deal (March 18, 2010). Both ASON files copyright the same types of material (music, lyrics, musical arrangements, text, editing, production). And both ASON files feature matching titles.

kreen said:
4- If they were trying to pull a fast one on the music industry/fan base, I don’t think they would include the impersonator’s name (Jason) in the title of their registrations! (ASON surely stands for AngelickSON).
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I wouldn't underestimate their egos/recklessness. Think of the word "ASON" as like a little "thank you" to Jason for his uncredited efforts. And if Eddie and James were ever asked about this publicly, they could of course just say "No, it's short for Angelikson" as a cover.

kreen said:
5- There is no indication that there are 13 MJ/Cascio songs.
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But again, the titling of the compilations indicate that there could be a 13th track. (If it turns out there isn't though, that's fine. It's just something to consider right now.)

kreen said:
I think that you’re overreaching in trying to “fit” the 12 Cascio songs into other entries. It’s infinitely more probable to assume the 12 MJ/Cascio songs are indeed in that MJ Song Book.
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I don't agree with either sentence. I think it's much more likely that the songs are in the two ASON compilations.
 
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If only we can complie a list of all Ad-libs that were pasted, and all words that were pasted in. That would help me out a bit...
 
I reworded my two previous posts a bit. Hopefully they're easier to follow now.

Kreen, something I forgot to mention...

If the ASON collections do in fact contain the suspect Cascio songs, that would explain why the Estate and Sony Music didn't know about the tracks at the time of the $200 million signing, as well as explain why we didn't first hear about the existence of the tracks until May 5, 2010. (Just 48 days after the ASON collections were registered.)
 
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