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Michael - The Great Album Debate

^ I just heard Fall In Love.. sorry IDK why I typed AWAY..
 
After listening to Michael religiously for 17 years, it is as clear as day to me that fall In Love is not sung by Michael Jackson. Water is probably the worst.
 
StellaJackson said:
There isn't a Cascio song called away.
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There isn't, but I've always agreed with that opinion. That maybe these were rough, and like people say when Michael records demo's sometimes the words are inaudible because he's mumbling and figuring out vocal arrangements and other things, as opposed to nailing the actual lyrics of the song. Suppose that did actually happen, would the Cascio's themselves be able to market that to any label looking for brand new Michael Jackson material? We have Fall Again, In The Back, Escape, Billie Jean, WBSS, DSTYGE, and numerous other demos where Michael's words are barely audible, but none of those were marketed as new material, and they were included as extras, not to mention Michael was here himself to oversee them.

Now, is that the path Sony and the Cascio's should've taken by leaving them as is? Yes, but lets be honest with ourselves for a moment, the label and the estate desperately needed something new and fresh for this album, so Michael wouldn't appear as this has-been who lost his touch, and couldn't make a hit song to save his life, which is exactly what the media was portraying him as up until his passing. I feel they did what they thought would help preserve Michael's immediate legacy to the highest regard.

Too bad that tactic failed miserably.
 
The vocals do not sound like Jason Malachi's.. The styling of the way melodyne was used is very much like his and that's where people hear Jason.. While there are some vocal simularities, it really comes down to the editing style that really gets me..

Michaels vibrato for example is nothing like any of the cascio tracks.. they've been ulterd too much.. NOW is it Michael.. I would not say that because we don't hear it the way Michael would have left it. (If it is him) There are definatly vocals that were used tha Jason CANNOT do and never has done before..

Thats why I mention the idea of mixing vocals.. But then again they could have used Michaels voice..

You know there are people that can take you using 3-5 ranges just saing.. "Ahhhhhhhh" and they can play people a recording of you saying whatever that person wants you to say... Now if you were to really disect the audio, you'd probably know something is not right, and you'd even say it is not you.. Even though it is..

We cannot be sure.. I can tell you that whatever was done to these tracks.. If they are Michael or not.. Sound no where near what Michaels voice can really do..
 
To me, the songs are unmistakebly Jason. It's his accent. It's his pronounciation. His breathing pattern. Melodyne can't do all that, and even if it did alter all those things, it's a heck of a coincidence that it sounds just like Jason. Listen to the Breaking News acapella at this link:

http://floriceg.multiply.com/video/item/496

Then listen to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM8gZiPdEMw&feature=related

Now listen to this and pay close attention to the snort at 0:41 (slowly dying).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_0vdu-_ARk&feature=related

Now listen to the snort at 1:15 on the Breaking News acapella.
 
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I hear the simularities of course.. Ive done all those listens.. But its not the same to me.. when I hear breaking news while at first I'd say no this is not Michael.. there are at least parts that would get me.. With ANY Malachi song there is not ONE moment that I'd think.. "wait a second could that be?".. Not at all.. There is a difference..

And thats why I said Jason could have been used, but I do believe Michaels voice is in there.. OR it is Michaels voice and someone else sang the lyrics which cannot paste it exact which we will here.. Aside from that, the editing is so much alike to Jasons..

Yes I hear the breathing tecnique simularities.. and Michael has used that breathing technique in Butterflies.. jason ripped in off Michael
 
KOPV said:
I hear the simularities of course.. Ive done all those listens.. But its not the same to me.. when I hear breaking news while at first I'd say no this is not Michael.. there are at least parts that would get me.. With ANY Malachi song there is not ONE moment that I'd think.. "wait a second could that be?".. Not at all.. There is a difference..

And thats why I said Jason could have been used, but I do believe Michaels voice is in there.. OR it is Michaels voice and someone else sang the lyrics which cannot paste it exact which we will here.. Aside from that, the editing is so much alike to Jasons..

Yes I hear the breathing tecnique simularities.. and Michael has used that breathing technique in Butterflies.. jason ripped in off Michael
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You're correct that there is some Michael in that Breaking News acapella. Words from previous recordings have been pasted in. And of course one major difference is that Jason is actively tring to sound identical to Michael for the first time. But there are still too many give aways.
 
If you honestly, HONESTLY believe Michael Jackson, one of the greatest vocalists of all time with a vast knowledge of music, recorded these poorly-written songs in such a whiny, inexperienced boy-scout way, you must not have a lot of faith in his vocal ability.
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This is exaggerating to the max. If it was that terrible and obvious we wouldn't have this discussion. even though you might believe it's Jason singing, although Jason is not perfect he's not terrible either.

This is also oxymoron. At one second Jason is "perfect" enough to fool at least 2 music experts and multiple musicians that worked with Michael and if it's taken to court this can't be won, but on the other second he's an inexperienced whinny boy scout.

Whenever I read such conflicting statements I feel like you need to make up your minds.

Even when he wasn't trying, he could still sing something beautifully and not goaty. When collaborating, Michael - the quintessential perfectionist - would never allow anything poorly written to pass his lips unless he was mumbling and improvising.
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and that fits with guide vocals.

He had a plan for every song, these songs are evidently never even thought of as being part of the plan. Eddie said that they were going to finalize vocals in London, so why isn't any tracks on his list of songs for an album?
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Judging from what we learned from Michael and how he worked on the songs for YEARS, it's obvious that these were just in the first stages. They would probably require years of work before making to an album.

Judging by what I've read, Frank was MJ's golden boy and there was conflict between Eddie and Frank because of it. You don't think that he would be bitter if he never got to work with his friend and idol when his brother literally spent his entire adult life as Michael's servant?
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you are wrong. Michael and Frank had a fall out by 2005 and Eddie was close with Michael starting 2004. So Eddie has no reason to be bitter to Frank and I don't see the relevance of this at all.

Why was Neff-U and Barry Gibb so quick to show us Michael working in video/note form when Eddie hasn't provided a single shred of evidence that he worked on those songs?
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there are rumors about this.

Why did Michael become so emotionless and whiny for these songs when his philosophy on music was that he never sang what he didn't mean? Why did he record numerous media songs when he said he was done with those songs a year earlier? I really want answers to these questions and I'm waiting for a believer to answer them to a satisfactory degree.
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again exaggeration. Although the vibrato might be shaky, the songs are no way "whinny". Emotionless is argumentative as well but realisticly most musicians do not give 100% at guide vocals. Have you seen Michael on TII saying he's not giving his all as it's just a rehearsal? Why are you expecting him to be 100% perfect and all giving if he's just doing first guide vocals recording of work in process songs in a basement?

when you actually approach these songs realistically (realize that they are guide vocals for work in process songs done in a basement), you'll realize the answer to your questions and also realize that your expectations are unrealistic. It's kinda like walking into a McDonalds and expecting to find a chef there preparing you a full 5 course meal.


WhoIsIt89 said:
There isn't, but I've always agreed with that opinion. That maybe these were rough, and like people say when Michael records demo's sometimes the words are inaudible because he's mumbling and figuring out vocal arrangements and other things, as opposed to nailing the actual lyrics of the song. Suppose that did actually happen, would the Cascio's themselves be able to market that to any label looking for brand new Michael Jackson material? We have Fall Again, In The Back, Escape, Billie Jean, WBSS, DSTYGE, and numerous other demos where Michael's words are barely audible, but none of those were marketed as new material, and they were included as extras, not to mention Michael was here himself to oversee them.

Now, is that the path Sony and the Cascio's should've taken by leaving them as is? Yes, but lets be honest with ourselves for a moment, the label and the estate desperately needed something new and fresh for this album, so Michael wouldn't appear as this has-been who lost his touch, and couldn't make a hit song to save his life, which is exactly what the media was portraying him as up until his passing. I feel they did what they thought would help preserve Michael's immediate legacy to the highest regard.

Too bad that tactic failed miserably.
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the future releases actually will show us a lot of things. As I said before if the future songs (non-Cascio) have processing, have pasted adlibs, have copy pastes etc, we'll realize that it's not a tactic but the reality of posthumous releases.
 
You don't think Fall In Love is whiny? The other songs on Michael have processing and pasted adlibs but they sound fine. And Fall Again from the Ultimate Collection is a one take guide vocal/demo yet sounds unmistakeably like Michael. There shouldn't be any need for so many excuses as to why these trcks don't sound like Michael.
 
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StellaJackson said:
You don't think Fall In Love is whiny? The other songs on Michael have processing and pasted adlibs but they sound fine. and Fall Again from the Ultimate Collection is a one take guide vocal/demo yet sounds unmistakeably like Michael. There shouldn't be any need for so many excuses as to why these trcks don't sound like Michael.
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guide vocal and demo are two different things. So which one is it?

and please stop with "excuses" BS. If you can't handle a discussion and cannot come up with counter points and need to resort to "excuses", perhaps you shouldn't discuss at all.
 
ivy said:
guide vocal and demo are two different things. So which one is it?

and please stop with "excuses" BS. If you can't handle a discussion and cannot come up with counter points and need to resort to "excuses", perhaps you shouldn't discuss at all.
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There's no need for that attitude. I was simply generalising. A lot of excuses have been put forward. For a moderator, your attitude is appalling.

Guide vocal or demo it should still sound like Michael.
 
StellaJackson;3547171 said:
There's no need for that attitude. I was simply generalising. A lot of excuses have been put forward. For a moderator, your attitude is appalling.
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I find your constant disrespect and use of words like "excuses" etc appalling. I prefer people that are able to write their opinions and make a logical point, support and defend that point. seen my recent discussion with Grent? That's what a discussion looks like. Constant belittling and empty posts/repating same cliches doesn't bring anything to you. I don't appreciate when I spend my time and effort to write an intelligent argument and all you can say to that is "excuse". and Me being an moderator does NOT mean I will be silent against disrespect. I will point it out. Also read the first post in this thread. This thread has heated discussion so please stop your complaining.

and regardless :

Guide vocal and demo are two different things
recording in a studio versus a basement two different things
finishing a song 3/4 versus first recording is two different things.

and this is being realistic.

Michael Jackson recorded a demo of "Fall Again" in 1999 for his album Invincible, but the song was never finished, and therefore did not make the final cut. As the original writer of the song Walter Afanasieff confirmed in January 2000, ‘We worked to the point that we were three-fourths of the way finished, then the incident happened when his son (Prince) got very sick. We’re going to have to reserve a little spot to finish the song.’[6] Robin Thicke was credited as a co-writer and contributed background vocals for this demo. The demo was released on November 16, 2004 as an album track of his limited edition box set - The Ultimate Collection.[7]
 
ivy;3547177 said:
I find your constant disrespect and use of words like "excuses" etc appalling. I prefer people that are able to write their opinions and make a point. Constant belittling doesn't bring anything to you. and Me being an moderator does NOT mean I will be silent against disrespect. I will point it out.


and regardless :

Guide vocal and demo are two different things
recording in a studio versus a basement two different things
finishing a song 3/4 versus first recording is two different things.

and this is being realistic.

Michael Jackson recorded a demo of "Fall Again" in 1999 for his album Invincible, but the song was never finished, and therefore did not make the final cut. As the original writer of the song Walter Afanasieff confirmed in January 2000, ‘We worked to the point that we were three-fourths of the way finished, then the incident happened when his son (Prince) got very sick. We’re going to have to reserve a little spot to finish the song.’[6] Robin Thicke was credited as a co-writer and contributed background vocals for this demo. The demo was released on November 16, 2004 as an album track of his limited edition box set - The Ultimate Collection.[7]
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Could you show me some examples of my "constant disrespect" please? Also, what is offensive about calling the reasons given for the strange sounding vocals excuses, when, in my opinion, that is what they are? You seem extremely over sensitive to what other people say. I certainly don't intend to offend anyone, but if you take it that way, then there's not much I can say.
 
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Unfourtunately we dont know as a 100% if the tracks are Micahel or if they arent. Its alot of he said, she said...etc
 
StellaJackson said:
Could you show me some examples of my "constant disrespect" please? Also, what is offensive about calling the reasons given for the strange sounding vocals excuses, when, in my opinion, that is what they are?
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what you call an "excuse" is another person's "opinion" and you need to respect that. You can disagree with it but you need to be respectful. Calling it an "excuse" is disrespectful and belittling. One member has been banned from this thread for replying to every post as "utter complete BS". This use of "excuse" is no different.

If I'm wrong and if you don't agree with me, you can point out what I'm mistaken at, express your point with examples without the use of such belittling adjectives as "excuse". Look to other people posts, look to mine. I don't agree with you but do I use such adjectives? Or think like this, how would you feel if I quote all of your posts and call them "the same old same old repeat".

and your disrespect is you get personal and seem like you can't handle the discussion. whenever I post something you don't like I'm a bully, appalling, have an attitude etc or you feel the need to question my "moderator" position. It either shows that you don't realize the rules for this thread and/or can't handle the discussion here (and like to play the victim) or you are tempted to bring everything to a personal level and try to make other people look bad.
 
Do you think the negative sentiment we have on the Cascio tracks is partially due to the unrealisticlly high expectation we had on the Michael album? We were told that the Cascio tracks were among the best works Michael had done in the past decade. Sony and the Estate wanted to show Michael was productive in his final years. They were desperate for trendy tracks. They built the hype up. Unfortunately, we were let down. The Cascio tracks were nowhere near Michael's perfectionist standard. It's difficult for us to accept a less-than-perfect Michael Jackson album. Michael delivered six out of six. Every one of his albums is the best a fan can ask for.

As Ivy mentioned, I also think the next album can be very telling. Will the non-Cascio track also sound off?
 
love is magical said:
Do you think the negative sentiment we have on the Cascio tracks is partially due to the unrealisticlly high expectation we had on the Michael album? We were told that the Cascio tracks were among the best works Michael had done in the past decade. Sony and the Estate wanted to show Michael was productive in his final years. They were desperate for trendy tracks. They built the hype up. Unfortunately, we were let down. The Cascio tracks were nowhere near Michael's perfectionist standard. It's difficult for us to accept a less-than-perfect Michael Jackson album. Michael delivered six out of six. Every one of his albums is the best a fan can ask for.

As Ivy mentioned, I also think the next album can be very telling. Will the non-Cascio track also sound off?
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Tracks like Slave, Blue Gangsta, DYKWYCA etc sound fantastic.
 
StellaJackson said:
Tracks like Slave, Blue Gangsta, DYKWYCA etc sound fantastic.
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I understand, Stella. I also wish the Cascio tracks were replaced by STTR, Blue Gangster and DYKWYCA. But, in reality, Sony would never put all eggs in one nest. Sony wants to spread the more complete tracks among several albums. As a fan, of course, I want only the best songs to make the first posthumous release. But, in realiy it's impossile, as it doesn't make business sense. The potential of a posthumous release is limited, especially in this day and age. Michael is no here anymore to promote it. So, why would Sony go all out?

Plus, we don't know how many tracks in the vaults are releasable.
 
There is a reason why when Jason first came online, I KNEW it wasnt Michael and when I listen to songs like Keep Your Head Up I hear something much closer to what I know as Michaels voice..

Jason does a good impression of Michael but its not mistakable.. WHATEVER it is on the album, its much closer to Michael than Jason.. I'd believe that its another unknown singer before I believe its Jason..

When I listen to Best Of Joy and compare it to Keep Your Head Up its the much much closer than anything i could compare to Jason Malachi.. When I hear Jason I don't correlate his voice to Michaels, he does not sound that much like him.. He sounds like a fan ripping him off.. I can fullllly tell its not Michael.. When I hear Keep Your Head Up, even though it does not have the same power behind the voice as most MJ songs (which does get lost when u edit upon edit a vocal) but it sounds like Michael..

If Michael were a robot, that's what he would sound like basically! Jason as I said from way begining before this contraversy, he does not sound that much like Michael..
 
StellaJackson said:
But it's ok for you to refer to what I say as BS?
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and for the record : I didn't call your post as BS, I only called "excuses" part as BS and even that was enough to get you riled up.

so you understand what I'm saying then? I only did it to show how your behavior is disrespectful and belittling. You get all wound up when I called "excuses" as BS. So you should be able to see how you calling what other people say "excuses" are appealing as well.
 
Gaddafi was a soldier boy - "And they leave you in Libya, hee hee hee!"
Ready 2 Win is about alcoholism, put away your beer!
And wasn't All Right performed in Munich and remastered with more "explosive" drums?

I've heard from some people who think songs like All I Need are MJ but think others don't, while others think Burn Tonight sounds like MJ but All I Need does not.

Although I maintain my position as a doubter, there are some interesting things we cannot judge about the songs. I still think the songs are too clear in pronounciation ("just makin it clearer" lol) but if you listen to MJ singing Billie Jean live he sings very different in the 1992 legs of the Dangerous Tour compared to 1993 ones as well as the Royal Concert. If you hear Slave To The Rhythm you hear him sing "slave" and "slav!". Also around the Destiny and Off the Wall era he rolls his r's a little more.

I think the most important "evidence" comes from the singer's speaking voice in Black Widow "don't stop...". It doesn't sound like Jason or MJ but like someone impersonating MJ doing a rap (like shout and the sounds in In The Closet, the "being seduced" voice).
 
ivy;3547169 said:
guide vocal and demo are two different things. So which one is it?
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The Estate doesn't even know the answer:

"At that time, no one ever mentioned that the vocals we heard on the Cascio songs, which were basically in demo format, might not be Michael." — Statement to Fans

"While these vocals may have been 'guide vocals,' or in demo form, it does not detract in any way from their quality or their authenticity." — Michael: The Story Behind the Album

However, Taj Jackson claims it's neither:

"[Referring to Breaking News] This was not a demo. This was a complete vocal. The songs were sold as final album tracks and 'approved' by MJ." - Twitter Timeline
 
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it blows my mind that michael jackson fans-people who have presumably listened to michael jackson for the better part of their lives-can hear the TINY/NONEXISTANT differences between the cascio singer and jason malachi, enough to say: "it's not the same", and yet they can't hear the GLARING/MAJOR differences between the cascio singer and michael jackson, enough to say: "I'm not sure, it COULD be the same."

Like how do you go from being good enough of a listener or judge to determine that jason is NOT the cascio singer, but you are NOT a good enough listener or judge to determine that michael and the cascio singer are 2 different people?

to people who feel this way, what do you hear that's convincing you that the cascio singer is NOT jason?
you're more sure that it's not jason than that it's not michael?

Am i the only person that is seriously confused by this?
 
azsummergirl said:
it blows my mind that michael jackson fans-people who have presumably listened to michael jackson for the better part of their lives-can hear the TINY/NONEXISTANT differences between the cascio singer and jason malachi, enough to say: "it's not the same", and yet they can't hear the GLARING/MAJOR differences between the cascio singer and michael jackson, enough to say: "I'm not sure, it COULD be the same."

Like how do you go from being good enough of a listener or judge to determine that jason is NOT the cascio singer, but you are NOT a good enough listener or judge to determine that michael and the cascio singer are 2 different people?

to people who feel this way, what do you hear that's convincing you that the cascio singer is NOT jason?
you're more sure that it's not jason than that it's not michael?

Am i the only person that is seriously confused by this?
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Dude, I love your thought-provoking posts ;) lol
 
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