Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Human Nature ....wow....Yes, that song is from heaven...:wub: I wonder if he ever really considered a more intimate setting though?

I wonder. I think he may have been conlicted between what he wanted to do & what he thought the public wanted.

E.g. why did he keep doing 70% of his set from Thriller & Bad? On the Dangerous Tour, only 4 songs were from Dangerous. Did he not want to perform Who Is It, Give In To Me etc.

They wouldn't have had to be full choreographed routines. They could have been like performances of APOM or Dirty Diana on the Bad tour, just freestyled across the stage. It would have been awesome.

It's frustrating as MJ is so often seen as an 80s artist, but he added too that perception himself.

Even on VMAs '95 he should have been plugging HIStory yet did a Greatest Hits mash up and Dangerous before half of YANA.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I wonder. I think he may have been conlicted between what he wanted to do & what he thought the public wanted.

E.g. why did he keep doing 70% of his set from Thriller & Bad? On the Dangerous Tour, only 4 songs were from Dangerous. Did he not want to perform Who Is It, Give In To Me etc.

They wouldn't have had to be full choreographed routines. They could have been like performances of APOM or Dirty Diana on the Bad tour, just freestyled across the stage. It would have been awesome.

It's frustrating as MJ is so often seen as an 80s artist, but he added too that perception himself.

Even on VMAs '95 he should have been plugging HIStory yet did a Greatest Hits mash up and Dangerous before half of YANA.

Because he started his tour way too early!
None of the videos came out except maybe maximum three from the new album when he started his tour.

Personally, as I didn't see him on BAD tour, it was great to see him perfomr all those songs.

By the way, don't forget that people -non-fans- expect him to sing all the famous songs and if they listen only to the new ones they could get bored (contrary to the fans who don't ask better than to hear the new stuff).

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I wonder. I think he may have been conflicted between what he wanted to do & what he thought the public wanted.

E.g. why did he keep doing 70% of his set from Thriller & Bad? On the Dangerous Tour, only 4 songs were from Dangerous. Did he not want to perform Who Is It, Give In To Me etc.

They wouldn't have had to be full choreographed routines. They could have been like performances of APOM or Dirty Diana on the Bad tour, just freestyled across the stage. It would have been awesome.

I know. Of course I love Beat It, Billie Jean and Thriller. But, I honestly don't mind if he repleaced Beat It, Billie Jean, Thriller with GITM, WII and RTT.

For most other concert goers, they may feel disappointed or even cheated if they don't see Beat It, Billie Jean and Thriller in a Michael Jackson concert.

The songs from Thriller are just too iconic. Those songs are both blessings and curse. They are the greatest songs ever; yet, there are way too many people who limit Michael Jackson to Beat It, Billie Jean and Thriller.

It irks me when I hear people said Michael Jackson's best song is Thriller. Don't get me wrong. I love Thriller. But, there are just so many other great songs. I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Because he started his tour way too early!
None of the videos came out except maybe maximum three from the new album when he started his tour.

Personally, as I didn't see him on BAD tour, it was great to see him perfomr all those songs.

By the way, don't forget that people -non-fans- expect him to sing all the famous songs and if they listen only to the new ones they could get bored (contrary to the fans who don't ask better than to hear the new stuff).

It shouldn't matter about the vids. The tour is called The Dangerous Tour, yet less than 25% was from that album. The problem was every tour was designed for those that had never seen him live before.

By the time I saw HIStory, I'd seen Beat It, Billie Jean, Thriller and others all performed exactly the same way many times before. Add to that the fact that not even the vocal was new and it was less than satisfying.

Anyway, this was all positive stuff sbefore o I should stop. It's just that he had so much great stuff he could have done.

Imagine 2 Bad on the HIStory tour done from Ghosts. Or Who Is It with a beatboxed intro....

Oh, the possibilities....

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Because he started his tour way too early!
None of the videos came out except maybe maximum three from the new album when he started his tour.

Personally, as I didn't see him on BAD tour, it was great to see him perfomr all those songs.

By the way, don't forget that people -non-fans- expect him to sing all the famous songs and if they listen only to the new ones they could get bored (contrary to the fans who don't ask better than to hear the new stuff).

I always find it weird that in the first leg of BAD tour, BAD and IJCSLY are the only songs from BAD on the setlist.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

It shouldn't matter about the vids. The tour is called The Dangerous Tour, yet less than 25% was from that album. The problem was every tour was designed for those that had never seen him live before.

By the time I saw HIStory, I'd seen Beat It, Billie Jean, Thriller and others all performed exactly the same way many times before. Add to that the fact that not even the vocal was new and it was less than satisfying.

Anyway, this was all positive stuff sbefore o I should stop. It's just that he had so much great stuff he could have done.

Imagine 2 Bad on the HIStory tour done from Ghosts. Or Who Is It with a beatboxed intro....

Oh, the possibilities....

I of course agree with you, but to be honest it is difficult to select the songs.

For example I always wondered why they issued the BEST OFs???? Every one of his albums are already best of! It's impossible to make a best of.

On BAD album only one song was not a single or a video -"Just Good Friends."

On Dangerous there were Jam, In the closet, Remember the time, Heal the world, Black or white, give in to me, who is it, will you be there, gone too soon videos and Dangerous performance. Some potntioal songs didn't make it such as WYWTOM, Drive me wild, ...

etc, etc.

So all those best of albums afterwards were a pure waste of time!

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I know. Of course I love Beat It, Billie Jean and Thriller. But, I honestly don't mind if he repleaced Beat It, Billie Jean, Thriller with GITM, WII and RTT.

For most other concert goers, they may feel disappointed or even cheated if they don't see Beat It, Billie Jean and Thriller in a Michael Jackson concert.

The songs from Thriller are just too iconic. Those songs are both blessings and curse. They are the greatest songs ever; yet, there are way too many people who limit Michael Jackson to Beat It, Billie Jean and Thriller.

It irks me when I hear people said Michael Jackson's best song is Thriller. Don't get me wrong. I love Thriller. But, there are just so many other great songs. I'm sure you know what I mean.

I know what you mean. Thriller and Beat it are awesome tracks, but the video helped thriller alot as well as the concept, and beat it was also helped by it's video, the van halen appearance and the fact it had an awesome riff. Billie Jean was the only one of those three that really is up there at the top of Michael Jackson's work, and in my opinion the greatest song of all time.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

It shouldn't matter about the vids. The tour is called The Dangerous Tour, yet less than 25% was from that album. The problem was every tour was designed for those that had never seen him live before.

By the time I saw HIStory, I'd seen Beat It, Billie Jean, Thriller and others all performed exactly the same way many times before. Add to that the fact that not even the vocal was new and it was less than satisfying.

Anyway, this was all positive stuff sbefore o I should stop. It's just that he had so much great stuff he could have done.

Imagine 2 Bad on the HIStory tour done from Ghosts. Or Who Is It with a beatboxed intro....

Oh, the possibilities....

Remember the comments from Orianthi and Kenny Ortega, the TII band learned enough materials for four concerts. Michael had so many hits and great materials.

Many artists struggle to fill up the setlist of one concert with worthy material. Yet, Michael Jackson had too many...

Remember Kenny said it pained Michael to exclude YANA from the setlist. Michael Bearden said Michael may switch between Human Nature and Stranger in Moscow.

Again, I really think the issue is public perception. Iconic songs like Billie Jean just needs to be on the setlist for most concert goers

 

[Korgnex]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

@BUMPER_SNIPPET: Only shows that you don't understand the music business. Best Of's are important for companies.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I of course agree with you, but to be honest it is difficult to select the songs.

For example I always wondered why they issued the BEST OFs???? Every one of his albums are already best of! It's impossible to make a best of.

On BAD album only one song was not a single or a video -"Just Good Friends."

On Dangerous there were Jam, In the closet, Remember the time, Heal the world, Black or white, give in to me, who is it, will you be there, gone too soon videos and Dangerous performance. Some potntioal songs didn't make it such as WYWTOM, Drive me wild, ...

etc, etc.

So all those best of albums afterwards were a pure waste of time!

Exactly, on The Essential, 80% of Thriller & Bad is on there!

It's amazing that most people don't know WII, SIM, GITM. I admit they're not as accessible or immediate as the 80s stuff, but they are so much better.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I of course agree with you, but to be honest it is difficult to select the songs.

For example I always wondered why they issued the BEST OFs???? Every one of his albums are already best of! It's impossible to make a best of.

On BAD album only one song was not a single or a video -"Just Good Friends."

On Dangerous there were Jam, In the closet, Remember the time, Heal the world, Black or white, give in to me, who is it, will you be there, gone too soon videos and Dangerous performance. Some potntioal songs didn't make it such as WYWTOM, Drive me wild, ...

etc, etc.

So all those best of albums afterwards were a pure waste of time!

Exactly... Michael Jackson simply never released a bad song. Every song on OTW, Thriller, BAD, Dangerous and HIStory are GREAT. That's why I never have answers to questions like "What's your favorite Michael Jackson song?" and "What's your favorite Michael Jackson video?" I love too many of them to name one.

It really is a daunting task to pick song for his concert. He just has too many worthy songs.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

@BUMPER_SNIPPET: Only shows that you don't understand the music business. Best Of's are important for companies.

I think what Bumper said is from fan's perspective.

What's good for the record label is not always good for fans.

The album MICHAEL is a good example of the disconnect between record's label intention and fans' wishes.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Exactly... Michael Jackson simply never released a bad song. Every song on OTW, Thriller, BAD, Dangerous and HIStory are GREAT. That's why I never have answers to questions like "What's your favorite Michael Jackson song?" and "What's your favorite Michael Jackson video?" I love too many of them to name one.

It really is a daunting task to pick song for his concert. He just has too many worthy songs.

Perfect set list?

For me...

Jam
Another Part Of Me
Smooth Criminal
Give In To Me
Butterflies
Dirty Diana
Don't Stop...
Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
Who Is It
TDCAU (full song!)
2 Bad
Threatened
Stranger In Moscow
P.Y.T
Earth Song
Man In The Mirror
Will You Be There
Billie Jean
Smile

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Exactly, on The Essential, 80% of Thriller & Bad is on there!

It's amazing that most people don't know WII, SIM, GITM. I admit they're not as accessible or immediate as the 80s stuff, but they are so much better.

It's extremely frustrating to hear people say Michael Jackson didn't have any good songs after BAD. I mean the albums Dangerous and HIStory are the best ever. Michael outdid himself with Dangerous and HIStory.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Perfect set list?

For me...

Jam
Another Part Of Me
Smooth Criminal
Give In To Me
Butterflies
Dirty Diana
Don't Stop...
Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
Who Is It
TDCAU (full song!)
2 Bad
Threatened
Stranger In Moscow
P.Y.T
Earth Song
Man In The Mirror
Will You Be There
Billie Jean
Smile

On top of your 19-song set list, I'd like to add Human Nature, TWYMMF, I'll Be There and Speechless....

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

On top of your 19-song set list, I'd like to add Human Nature, TWYMMF, I'll Be There and Speechless....

I can confirm that I will allow that. However I think 23 songs is pushing it!

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

It's extremely frustrating to hear people say Michael Jackson didn't have any good songs after BAD. I mean the albums Dangerous and HIStory are the best ever. Michael outdid himself with Dangerous and HIStory.

oh yeah, but they are more creative and innovative, which is why people don't get them, because they judge on first listen nowadays, desperate for a catchy melody, thats why everything is so processed and formulaic in todays industry.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I can confirm that I will allow that. However I think 23 songs is pushing it!

Lol... That's why I think Michael Bearden and Kenny Ortega did have major headache in finalizing the setlist of TII.

And in additional of the 23 songs we picked, I'm sure Michael would like to perform HTW - a song which is dear in his heart..

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Gotta love HTW, that song has so much love and hope in it....

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Gotta love HTW, that song has so much love and hope in it....

And, again, littered with Biblical references:

"They shall turn their swords into ploughshares"

Isaiah 2:4

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

And, again, littered with Biblical references:

"They shall turn their swords into ploughshares"

Isaiah 2:4

I thought so...What a beautiful soul; he really CARED....

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

And, again, littered with Biblical references:

"They shall turn their swords into ploughshares"

Isaiah 2:4

Profound! Amazing!

I remember a critic said HTW is a watered down version or a sweetened version of WATW. Absolutely unbelievable how critics tried to undermine the brilliance of Michael Jackson every chance they got.

Speaking of HTW, I played it out loud one day in my living room, when Michael started the first line, my mom gasped. She said Michael's voice is beautiful. My mom is a 63 year-old woman who doesn't speak English. She doesn't understand what Michael was singing, but she feels it. Heal The World is her favorite Michael Jackson song. She loves his performance of the song at the Clinton Inaugural Concert.

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

My favourite video, at the moment, is the Brazilian version of They Don't Care About Us.

as you can see from my sig, i obviously agree with you. i can't take my eyes off that short film. ever. i see it in my mind every time i listen to the song too. that's such a powerful video i love it. i loved the "making of" with spike lee too, it's very cool.

though i will watch Bad, or Come Together, or Dirty Diana if i just want to see mike being gorgeous. IF you know what i mean

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

as you can see from my sig, i obviously agree with you. i can't take my eyes off that short film. ever. i see it in my mind every time i listen to the song too. that's such a powerful video i love it. i loved the "making of" with spike lee too, it's very cool.

though i will watch Bad, or Come Together, or Dirty Diana if i just want to see mike being gorgeous. IF you know what i mean

I know exactly what you mean. I'd like to add ITC to the list. :wub:

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Only Michael Jackson could create an album with pop, hip hop, rock, lullaby, electronic dance, gospel, industrial dance, ballads, and folk songs.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Perfect set list?

For me...

Jam
Another Part Of Me
Smooth Criminal
Give In To Me
Butterflies
Dirty Diana
Don't Stop...
Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
Who Is It
TDCAU (full song!)
2 Bad
Threatened
Stranger In Moscow
P.Y.T
Earth Song
Man In The Mirror
Will You Be There
Billie Jean
Smile

In Michael Jackson's case, as far as marketing is concerned, I would have tried to touch even more people by releasing per different style rather than random hits. This way non-fans could discover what a huge range of style Michael Jackson had sang in his life. For example:

"Best of I" (Jazzy/Blues/Soul) double CD:

1) Who's loving you
2) Ain't no sunshine
3) Reflections
4) It's too late to change the time
5) Dancing Machine
6) I am love
7) The life of the party
8) If I don't love you this way
9) It all begins and ends with love
10) Forever came today
11) Moving violation
12) Body language
13) Call of the wild
14) One day in your life
15) I'll come home to you
16) Blues away
17) Bless his soul
18) Shake your body (down to the ground)
19) All night dancin'
20) That's what you get for being polite
21) Get on the floor
22) Working day and night
23) I can't help it
24) Burn this disco out
25) Off the wall
26) Your ways
27) Baby be mine
28) Lady in my life


"Best of II" (rock):

1) Beat it
2) State of shock
3) Dirty Diana
4) Why you wanna trip on me
5) Black or white
6) Give in to me
7) D.S.
8) Is it scary
9) Morphine
10) Privacy
11) Whatever happens
12) Another day
13) Do you know where your children are
14) If you don't love me

+ bonus:

15) State of shock feat.Freddy Mercury
16) Give in to me (demo/alternative version)
17) Another day (demo)
18) Dirty Diana (instrumental)
19) Beat it (demo)

Best of III (funk/pop/r'n'b)

1) Don't stop till you get enough
2) Can you feel it
3) This place hotel
4) Walk right now (12#)
5) Wanna be startin' somethin' (12#)
6) Thriller (video version - radio edit)
7) Billie Jean (12#)
8) P.Y.T.
9) Torture (12#)
10) Wait
11) We're here to change the world
12) Bad (dance remix radio edit)
13) The way you make me feel (12#)
14) Another part of me (12#)
15) Smooth criminal (Annie mix)
16) Leave me alone

Best of IV (hip hop):

1) Jam
2) She drives me wild
3) Black or white
4) This time around
5) Money
6) 2 Bad
7) Unbreakable
8) Heartbreaker
9) Invincible
10) The girl is mine feat. Will I am

+ bonus

11) Monkey business
12) We be ballin' you

Best of V (dance/techno/trance):

1) Jam (atlanta techno dub)
2) In the closet (the promise)
3) Who is it (patience)
4) Wanna be startin' somethin' (brothers in rhythm house)
5) Beat it (moby's sub)
6) Stranger in Moscow (Hani)
7) Earth song (Hani)
8) Is this scary (DJ Greek)
etc, etc.

And for the rest buy the initial albums ;-)

 

[Memefan]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

At no stage does anyone deny that Michael was in that studio. Prince claims Michael was there. That's good enough for me.

But like Prince says, the Cascio songs sounds nothing like anything Michael was recording. Again, that's good enough for me.

Oprah edited the quote out of her interview. Funny that. Sony-associated Oprah editing that out of her interview. And then a couple of weeks later dedicating a whole show to prove the vocals were legitimate.

You're claiming that a news outlet would fabricate a story about an actual TV interview days before the interview is televised knowing that they'd easily be proven wrong if the video didn't show what they reported? You're honestly contending that as a possibility? Like:

"Hey guys let's write a story about the kids telling Oprah that the songs are fake... even though there will be video footage available to prove our story wrong"???

That sounds plausible to you?

And their motive for doing that would be?

The original story came from Friedman...than a british tabloid got to it. About the same day they claim the kids wanted to buy back Neverland. Yahoo music picked it up.

If I remember correctly, Friedman claimed the kids were being manipulated by Tito's sons...emails were sent from MJ's personal account while they were known to be at school.


It was never release by the Oprah show.

Oprah released a promotional picture with the kids...she never used the kids' part of the interview to promote the show. Only Katherine's. We first heard what the kids said during the show.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

In Michael Jackson's case, as far as marketing is concerned, I would have tried to touch even more people by releasing per different style rather than random hits. This way non-fans could discover what a huge range of style Michael Jackson had sang in his life. For example:

"Best of I" (Jazzy/Blues/Soul) double CD:

1) Who's loving you
2) Ain't no sunshine
3) Reflections
4) It's too late to change the time
5) Dancing Machine
6) I am love
7) The life of the party
8) If I don't love you this way
9) It all begins and ends with love
10) Forever came today
11) Moving violation
12) Body language
13) Call of the wild
14) One day in your life
15) I'll come home to you
16) Blues away
17) Bless his soul
18) Shake your body (down to the ground)
19) All night dancin'
20) That's what you get for being polite
21) Get on the floor
22) Working day and night
23) I can't help it
24) Burn this disco out
25) Off the wall
26) Your ways
27) Baby be mine
28) Lady in my life


"Best of II" (rock):

1) Beat it
2) State of shock
3) Dirty Diana
4) Why you wanna trip on me
5) Black or white
6) Give in to me
7) D.S.
8) Is it scary
9) Morphine
10) Privacy
11) Whatever happens
12) Another day
13) Do you know where your children are
14) If you don't love me

+ bonus:

15) State of shock feat.Freddy Mercury
16) Give in to me (demo/alternative version)
17) Another day (demo)
18) Dirty Diana (instrumental)
19) Beat it (demo)

Best of III (funk/pop/r'n'b)

1) Don't stop till you get enough
2) Can you feel it
3) This place hotel
4) Walk right now (12#)
5) Wanna be startin' somethin' (12#)
6) Thriller (video version - radio edit)
7) Billie Jean (12#)
8) P.Y.T.
9) Torture (12#)
10) Wait
11) We're here to change the world
12) Bad (dance remix radio edit)
13) The way you make me feel (12#)
14) Another part of me (12#)
15) Smooth criminal (Annie mix)
16) Leave me alone

Best of IV (hip hop):

1) Jam
2) She drives me wild
3) Black or white
4) This time around
5) Money
6) 2 Bad
7) Unbreakable
8) Heartbreaker
9) Invincible
10) The girl is mine feat. Will I am

+ bonus

11) Monkey business
12) We be ballin' you

Best of V (dance/techno/trance):

1) Jam (atlanta techno dub)
2) In the closet (the promise)
3) Who is it (patience)
4) Wanna be startin' somethin' (brothers in rhythm house)
5) Beat it (moby's sub)
6) Stranger in Moscow (Hani)
7) Earth song (Hani)
8) Is this scary (DJ Greek)
etc, etc.

And for the rest buy the initial albums ;-)

What a collection! Such collection only exists in our dreams. Sony would never release anything like this. Michael was a master of all genre. Sometimes, I feel the word genius is too limiting for him. Word cannot describe his greatness.

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

What a collection! Such collection only exists in our dreams. Sony would never release anything like this. Michael was a master of all genre. Sometimes, I feel the word genius is too limiting for him. Word cannot describe his greatness.

nah genius is right if used in the proper sense of the word. It's used to lightly now, it was a word created for the very best of the best

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

nah genius is right if used in the proper sense of the word. It's used to lightly now, it was a word created for the very best of the best

Very true. Very similar to how people use words like "icon" and "legend" way too often. When I heard Britney Spears is being called an icon, then the word icon lost its meaning.