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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^ You claimed it, back it up...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Mundy said:
Ivy, I know you're not involved with the vocal controversy now but you know your legal stuff so I was hoping you could shed some light for me? (I'm only directing this at Ivy because of her legal knowledge, if anyone has any insight, I'd love to hear it ;))

Would the comparisons not pass under fair use? I know there is no set length to abide by but surely the comparisons aren't using enough material to be pulled on a copyright claim? My first thought was that maybe fair use dictates that the clips can't be used if the intent is to make them look bad but what I found says they can be used for criticism.



Maybe this was already addressed but if it was, I didn't see it.

Arklove, I'm glad you're back! :huggy:
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Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship.
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Extremely good and valuable point! So why are comparison videos and audios being taken down?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Instead of being sarcastic, why dont you give me a reason why each of my reasons is invalid... i really dont like how you attack me, its rather degrading
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How is that sarcasm?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Your logical, tell me where it is, think about where it isn't, and then where it could be and pick the most logical, which is what i thought people did, i am not the answer to everything, sometimes you need to do a little work too
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Well... when you made a definite statement like "Michael made clear notes on the songs", I'd expect a straight-forward answer from you. You didnt' say "please use your logic, if you can not find notes on RTT, then it's not unusal to not find any note on Breaking News". You see the difference?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
^^ Who are the 5 witnesses ?
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James Porte, Eddie Cascio, Dominic Cascio, and the other two Cascios who i cant remember the names of, btw saying THEIR CASCIOS SO THEY DONT COUNT, is null, they have done nothing but support and love Michael, so their track record is clean, and being a family that is already rich, it doesn't make sense to turn around and say moolah
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Instead of being sarcastic, why dont you give me a reason why each of my reasons is invalid... i really dont like how you attack me, its rather degrading
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Although I am often sarcastic, now I am not being sarcastic at all. This was my stance from the beginning. I already used this argument before.

I didn't say that all were "your" claims, but official claims.

All we have are CLAIMS, and not a single tangible proof like for example:

-worktapes
-other alternative demos
-recorded instructions from Michael
-at least a tiny picture if not a video
etc.

I wasn't attacking you, I was adding the argument to your list which according to my logic is incomplete.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
Well... when you made a definite statement like "Michael made clear notes on the songs", I'd expect a straight-forward answer from you. You didnt' say "please use your logic, if you can not find notes on RTT, then it's not unusal to not find any note on Breaking News". You see the difference?
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no not really
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Because it isn't fair use lol,
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Of course it is! We are criticizing and are trying to find out the truth because they didn't publish a single trace of their results or proceedings which led them to their conclusions!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
James Porte, Eddie Cascio, Dominic Cascio, and the other two Cascios who i cant remember the names of, btw saying THEIR CASCIOS SO THEY DONT COUNT, is null, they have done nothing but support and love Michael, so their track record is clean, and being a family that is already rich, it doesn't make sense to turn around and say moolah
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All Eddie ever said was that he pushed some buttons.....That's enough to satisfy you?

They keep their friendship secret ALL these years, and THEN they go on Oprah in the midst of a new album, after silence all these years...? On top of that, Eddie wants to write a book about him now? They sell 12 tracks to Sony for millions of dollars, even IF the vocals were Michael's, they choose to include these songs that Michael would never be happy with, and sell them to a company Michael hated? They register the songs 2 days after Michael died??? I wish I had friends like that!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
James Porte, Eddie Cascio, Dominic Cascio, and the other two Cascios who i cant remember the names of, btw saying THEIR CASCIOS SO THEY DONT COUNT, is null, they have done nothing but support and love Michael, so their track record is clean, and being a family that is already rich, it doesn't make sense to turn around and say moolah
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So the Cascios (the ones who sold the questioned tracks) are also the unbiased witnesses? Wow. And who was the victim's of the rape witness at the court claiming the rape didn't occur rapist's brother and family?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Although I am often sarcastic, now I am not being sarcastic at all. This was my stance from the beginning. I already used this argument before.

I didn't say that all were "your" claims, but official claims.

All we have are CLAIMS, and not a single tangible proof like for example:

-worktapes
-other alternative demos
-recorded instructions from Michael
-at least a tiny picture if not a video
etc.

I wasn't attacking you, I was adding the argument to your list which according to my logic is incomplete.
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And your saying that Claims from people who were there, are less credible than people listening to the tracks? Claims from people are far more credible, it is plausible that the claims are fake, it is also plausible that our ears are deceiving us, so we must use the analysis, and a statement that there was an analysis stands as truth until it is proven otherwise... thats how democracy works, dont like it? turn to communism or facism, you just get told what to believe their
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
So the Cascios (the ones who sold the questioned tracks) are also the unbiased witnesses? Wow. And who was the victim's of the rape witness at the court claiming the rape didn't occur rapist's brother and family?
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Yeah i understand the conflict of interest here, but how far do we go? i mean do we trust analysis that was paid for? Conflict of interest is a matter of concern for sure, but the two reasons why i believe they are telling the truth is 1. Their track record and 2. How much they would lose if they actually were lying. Think about this logically, the Jacksons settle disagreements in court, they do it for everything, they're business people, and thats understandable, yet they dont take action for this? And yet they file for a wrongful death lawsuit on Dr Murray despite them believing he's the fall guy? yeah it doesn't gell does it?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
And your saying that Claims from people who were there, are less credible than people listening to the tracks? Claims from people are far more credible, it is plausible that the claims are fake, it is also plausible that our ears are deceiving us, so we must use the analysis, and a statement that there was an analysis stands as truth until it is proven otherwise... thats how democracy works, dont like it? turn to communism or facism, you just get told what to believe their
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At the moment SONY is dictating the rules, I don't see any democracy. They say they take fans opinion into account but actually do nothing at all, is that what you call democracy. By the way, what the hell democracy have to do with recognizing a voice at all?

But since you started it, I'll tell yo what is the difference between democracy and communism. In communism (or fascism which is the other extreme) they tell you to shut up. In democracy they tell you to keep on talking, they're interested in what you have to say... NOT! And that's what is SONY doing, letting us keep on talking.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
So the Cascios (the ones who sold the questioned tracks) are also the unbiased witnesses? Wow. And who was the victim's of the rape witness at the court claiming the rape didn't occur rapist's brother and family?
Click to expand...

Yeah i understand the conflict of interest here, but how far do we go? i mean do we trust analysis that was paid for? Conflict of interest is a matter of concern for sure, but the two reasons why i believe they are telling the truth is 1. Their track record and 2. How much they would lose if they actually were lying. Think about this logically, the Jacksons settle disagreements in court, they do it for everything, they're business people, and thats understandable, yet they dont take action for this? And yet they file for a wrongful death lawsuit on Dr Murray despite them believing he's the fall guy? yeah it doesn't gell does it?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
At the moment SONY is dictating the rules, I don't see any democracy. They say they take fans opinion into account but actually do nothing at all, is that what you call democracy. By the way, what the hell democracy have to do with recognizing a voice at all?

But since you started it, I'll tell yo what is the difference between democracy and communism. In communism (or fascism which is the other extreme) they tell you to shut up. In democracy they tell you to keep on talking, they're interested in what you have to say... NOT! And that's what is SONY doing, letting us keep on talking.
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Not exactly how i expected it to come across, but Sony did give us the facts, just people want MORE evidence, and yes thats understandable, but in life, you sometimes dont get more, and i think theres confusion about the difference between THE ESTATE (who did the testing) and Sony who released the album...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Yeah i understand the conflict of interest here, but how far do we go? i mean do we trust analysis that was paid for? Conflict of interest is a matter of concern for sure, but the two reasons why i believe they are telling the truth is 1. Their track record and 2. How much they would lose if they actually were lying. Think about this logically, the Jacksons settle disagreements in court, they do it for everything, they're business people, and thats understandable, yet they dont take action for this? And yet they file for a wrongful death lawsuit on Dr Murray despite them believing he's the fall guy? yeah it doesn't gell does it?
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Where is that analysis? Where are the detailed reports and methodology that was used. If the tracks are genuine, it wouldn't be a problem to publish the results of the analysis.

Second, have you ever wondered what would be the results if they had analyzed Jason's voice on his own tracks and compared them to the Cascio tracks? What would be the matching percentage you think? And have you ever wondered why they contacted Jason at all if they knew that the tracks were genuine?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
Well... when you made a definite statement like "Michael made clear notes on the songs", I'd expect a straight-forward answer from you. You didnt' say "please use your logic, if you can not find notes on RTT, then it's not unusal to not find any note on Breaking News". You see the difference?
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larry141094 said:
no not really
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This is directed to the statement you made "Michael made clear notes on the Cacsio tracks."

When pressed further, you replied something should be self-explanatory. How so? How can it be self-explanatory when there is absolutely zero tangible evidence other than claims?

The statement you made is false. Fact, you don't know whether there is any note on Breakng News at all.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Not exactly how i expected it to come across, but Sony did give us the facts, just people want MORE evidence, and yes thats understandable, but in life, you sometimes dont get more, and i think theres confusion about the difference between THE ESTATE (who did the testing) and Sony who released the album...
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They both did the testings. Neither of them released the results. Just a poor claim among other previous claims.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
This is directed to the statement you made "Michael made clear notes on the Cacsio tracks."

When pressed further, you replied something should be self-explanatory. How so? How can it be self-explanatory when there is absolutely zero tangible evidence other than claims?

The statement you made is false. Fact, you don't know whether there is any note on Breakng News at all.
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Of course not, but using that logic (as i said) RTT, Heartbreaker etc we dont know whether there is any note on either, so that doesnt factor into the equation at all
 
larry141094;3383692 said:
Of course not, but using that logic (as i said) RTT, Heartbreaker etc we dont know whether there is any note on either, so that doesnt factor into the equation at all
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Well, nobody ever questioned those tracks, and for the same reason as you said that it would be stupid to think that Barry White is Céline Dion.

The Cascio tracks do not belong to the same logic at all. They simply and purely don't sound usual Michael's voice. And there is more than just the voice. There are so many details that don't match.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Look the results for the testing may not be able to be released, it might be confidential, there may have been requirements from the independent analysts that the results were private, who knows? Of course it is equally plausible that they are lying, the reason i dont think they are is because the Jacksons wont take action... you see things dont just happen, they have reasons, you just need to think about them
 
BUMPER SNIPPET;3383695 said:
Well, nobody ever questioned those tracks, and for the same reason as you said that it would be stupid to think that Barry White is Céline Dion.

The Cascio tracks do not belong to the same logic at all. They simply and purely don't sound usual Michael's voice. And there is more than just the voice. There are so many details that don't match.
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Honestly i feel like im talking to a wall... i never said the VOCALS were questionable, i just said you cant PROVE Michael wrote that song, just as you cant PROVE that he wrote BN, it doesn't mean he didn't write it
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Honestly i feel like im talking to a wall... i never said the VOCALS were questionable, i just said you cant PROVE Michael wrote that song, just as you cant PROVE that he wrote BN, it doesn't mean he didn't write it
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Well, we are questioning above all the vocals aren't we? All the rest is secondary. Who cares who wrote the song if the vocals are not the ones you expect to be?

I mean "Man In The Mirror" wasn't written by Michael, yet the spirit of the lyrics and music spouse Michael's style. Can you claim the same for the Cascio tracks? I can't.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Of course not, but using that logic (as i said) RTT, Heartbreaker etc we dont know whether there is any note on either, so that doesnt factor into the equation at all
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Then, why you made such misleading statement about Michael's clear notes on the Cascio tracks?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

We don't have clear results and the comparisons have been taken down.

If they want to thwart the fans' comparisons why don't they release their official comparisons to shut our mouths once for all?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

and the work tapes and notes? so far, only claims after claims...
 
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