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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
I can't let myself imagine that for fear I may explode.

Sadly, it would never have happened. He was always about bigger & better not stripping things down. I think This Is It was as intimate as it would have got.
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Yeah, it's something I don't think I can fathom!

But you're right - TII is the closest thing we'd get...His performance of IJCSLY is my absolute favourite live performance of that song....It was very spontaneous, and he wasn't a spontaneous performer...That's why I loved it so much...His ad libbing at the end, he let it just happen...Loved that....Gives me goosebumps..
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Arklove said:
Yeah, it's something I don't think I can fathom!

But you're right - TII is the closest thing we'd get...His performance of IJCSLY is my absolute favourite live performance of that song....It was very spontaneous, and he wasn't a spontaneous performer...That's why I loved it so much...His ad libbing at the end, he let it just happen...Loved that....Gives me goosebumps..
Click to expand...

Speaking of being a spontaneous performer, which you're right he wasn't, have you ever seen this?

[youtube]NO1v8t1FLOI[/youtube]

Watch the way he takes the song off in twists & turns without ever losing the melody. He forces the band to go along & follow him, he controls then rather than the other way around. Not restricted by pre-recorded vocals or choreography he's free to go where he pleases.

Something sadly missing in many of his later live shows.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
Speaking of being a spontaneous performer, which you're right he wasn't, have you ever seen this?

[youtube]NO1v8t1FLOI[/youtube]

Watch the way he takes the song off in twists & turns without ever losing the melody. He forces the band to go along & follow him, he controls then rather than the other way around. Not restricted by pre-recorded vocals or choreography he's free to go where he pleases.

Something sadly missing in many of his later live shows.
Click to expand...

i have seen this :D i've always loved it. :D such a great vocalist
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
Speaking of being a spontaneous performer, which you're right he wasn't, have you ever seen this?

[youtube]NO1v8t1FLOI[/youtube]

Watch the way he takes the song off in twists & turns without ever losing the melody. He forces the band to go along & follow him, he controls then rather than the other way around. Not restricted by pre-recorded vocals or choreography he's free to go where he pleases.

Something sadly missing in many of his later live shows.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've seen this...It's been a while though; thanks for sharing it!

He was a master on stage, since the day he set foot on one....Complete control of everything around him...I wonder why he didn't use this spontaneity more....It works for him...The magic is just so much more apparent...Not to put down his BIG BAD shows, but I just keep wondering what more of this would be like.....
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

MJultimatemusiclegen said:
i have seen this :D i've always loved it. :D such a great vocalist
Click to expand...

We had a great debate in our house on Christmas Day about music and truly great artists. I was surprised at how Michael, although seen as one of the all time greats, wasn't percieved as a great vocalist.

I think mainly lip-synced performances and songs such as TDCAU don't really show it off. But I think he made it look too easy. Also, even when he did sing live he didn't always put his all into the vocal. E.g. WBSS or most of Human Nature. If you didn't know you'd think he was struggling. Obviously, the end of HN and SOOML, IJCSLY shows he could really do it.

He had an amazing voice from the sublime 'Who's Loving You' to 'Butterflies'. Not to mention the diversity of being able to sing Stranger In Moscow & TDCAU on the same album.

I wish we'd have heard it more.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^^ He was seriously underrated as a vocalist....

THIS is power right here....6:28 and on....That emotion.....I wish we heard more of this...If this doesn't bring something out of you, deep inside, you're probably made of stone..lol

 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Arklove said:
^^ He was seriously underrated as a vocalist....
Click to expand...

In all fairness, unless you're a real fan, you tend to know other artists for one thing.

E.g. we know Paul McCartney for being a great songwriter but I bet Macca fans talk about what a great bassist he is. Or Prince fans saying what a great vocalist or guitarist he is.

Again, to get sycophantic about Michael, I always stress what a great songwriter he was.

As well as the dancing, the videos, the voice; he single handedly wrote:

Billie Jean
Don't Stop...
Beat It
Bad
The Way You Make Me Feel
Smooth Criminal
Dirty Diana
Who Is It
Black Or White (minus rap)
Stranger In Moscow
TDCAU
Speechless

...etc.....etc


And yes the clip above, stunning. Or MITM ending on Grammy's 88. I saw that for the first time since 1988 a couple of years ago and cried like a baby.

It truly blows my mind.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
We had a great debate in our house on Christmas Day about music and truly great artists. I was surprised at how Michael, although seen as one of the all time greats, wasn't percieved as a great vocalist.

I think mainly lip-synced performances and songs such as TDCAU don't really show it off. But I think he made it look too easy. Also, even when he did sing live he didn't always put his all into the vocal. E.g. WBSS or most of Human Nature. If you didn't know you'd think he was struggling. Obviously, the end of HN and SOOML, IJCSLY shows he could really do it.

He had an amazing voice from the sublime 'Who's Loving You' to 'Butterflies'. Not to mention the diversity of being able to sing Stranger In Moscow & TDCAU on the same album.

I wish we'd have heard it more.
Click to expand...

i love his vocals on liberian girl, so silky, and then you have the addlibs at the end of earth song, which are like the total opposite. His voice is almost haunting in stranger in moscow. It's the emotion in the vocal, it's there in every song he ever recorded, even that clip of him casually singing smile was practically album vocal standard.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Arklove said:
^^ He was seriously underrated as a vocalist....

THIS is power right here....6:28 and on....That emotion.....I wish we heard more of this...If this doesn't bring something out of you, deep inside, you're probably made of stone..lol
Click to expand...

always gives me chills does that, every time it's done. That in many ways is when Michael Jackson got so good that you really knew he was never going to ever come again, it's moments like that the average joe will never understand.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

MJultimatemusiclegen said:
i love his vocals on liberian girl, so silky, and then you have the addlibs at the end of earth song, which are like the total opposite. His voice is almost haunting in stranger in moscow. It's the emotion in the vocal, it's there in every song he ever recorded, even that clip of him casually singing smile was practically album vocal standard.
Click to expand...

Something completely missing in the Cascio songs. How is he able to sing Smile so beautifully and care-free, with the trademark curls at the end of the phrases, yet he can't do anything like that on the Cascio tracks? How is that possible?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

MJultimatemusiclegen said:
always gives me chills does that, every time it's done. That in many ways is when Michael Jackson got so good that you really knew he was never going to ever come again, it's moments like that the average joe will never understand.
Click to expand...

I agree....Just look at how he throws his body into what he's singing....I love it when he throws himself back, throws his whole body into it....It just comes out of him so ferociously...ugh...it frustrates me that I can't describe it the way I want to, but I'm sure you all understand....lol
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

This is probably the only thread where the mods don't want us to get back on topic!

But isn't this great? Even as fans we tend to take him for granted sometimes and forget how much of a genius he was.

And I don't use the term genius lightly, I wouldn't use it for any other pop star ever.

I mean proper genius, like Beethoven or Van Gogh where you are so great at the thing you are gifted at takes over your life so much to the extent that it takes over your brain and makes you 'abnormal' as far as the way the rest of the world sees you.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
In all fairness, unless you're a real fan, you tend to know other artists for one thing.

E.g. we know Paul McCartney for being a great songwriter but I bet Macca fans talk about what a great bassist he is. Or Prince fans saying what a great vocalist or guitarist he is.

Again, to get sycophantic about Michael, I always stress what a great songwriter he was.

As well as the dancing, the videos, the voice; he single handedly wrote:

Billie Jean
Don't Stop...
Beat It
Bad
The Way You Make Me Feel
Smooth Criminal
Dirty Diana
Who Is It
Black Or White (minus rap)
Stranger In Moscow
TDCAU
Speechless

...etc.....etc


And yes the clip above, stunning. Or MITM ending on Grammy's 88. I saw that for the first time since 1988 a couple of years ago and cried like a baby.

It truly blows my mind.
Click to expand...

Yeah, his songwriting was crazily underrated, he's one of the all time greats in that field too. No other artist ever has managed to create a bassline as catchy as billie jean, before or after MJ. To write something like that, and then go and write something as musical touching and moving as stranger in moscow, that requires serious talent. He never wrote chord sequences that were obvious in his music like a lot of other artists. To be writing grooves as funky as don't stop till you get enough at that age too, it's embedded deep within.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

samhabib said:
Something completely missing in the Cascio songs. How is he able to sing Smile so beautifully and care-free, with the trademark curls at the end of the phrases, yet he can't do anything like that on the Cascio tracks? How is that possible?
Click to expand...

well we both know the answer to that, but lets forget about those and enjoy this great discussion :)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
This is probably the only thread where the mods don't want us to get back on topic!

But isn't this great? Even as fans we tend to take him for granted sometimes and forget how much of a genius he was.

And I don't use the term genius lightly, I wouldn't use it for any other pop star ever.

I mean proper genius, like Beethoven or Van Gogh where you are so great at the thing you are gifted at takes over your life so much to the extent that it takes over your brain and makes you 'abnormal' as far as the way the rest of the world sees you.
Click to expand...

Oh genius. No question. Again, I'm a huge Prince fan and the difference is - you can teach someone to become a Prince, but you can't teach someone to be a Michael Jackson.

You can't teach a 9 year-old to sing like Michael does at the Motown audition. That's just not 'normal'.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

MJultimatemusiclegen said:
Yeah, his songwriting was crazily underrated, he's one of the all time greats in that field too. No other artist ever has managed to create a bassline as catchy as billie jean, before or after MJ. To write something like that, and then go and write something as musical touching and moving as stranger in moscow, that requires serious talent. He never wrote chord sequences that were obvious in his music like a lot of other artists. To be writing grooves as funky as don't stop till you get enough at that age too, it's embedded deep within.
Click to expand...

And it's the song structure as well. I've long used the term 'songs only Michael Jackson could write' in my album reviews. But where most songs are verse - chorus - verse - bridge - chorus. Michael could throw all that it the air and write songs such as Earth Song, Who Is It, WBSS, WYBT where the main part of the song is all in the final third where he'd fly with ad-libs all over the shop.

Who else could write these songs? And sing them perfectly. And produce them?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I love the way he describes his composition of Don't Stop....From Moonwalk

'Don't Stop had a spoken intro over bass, partly to build up tension and surprise people with the swirling strings and percussion. It was also unusual because of my vocal arrangement. On that cut I sing in overdubs as a kind of group. I wrote myself a high part, one that my solo voice couldn't carry on its own, so I let the arrangement take over from the singing.'

I just love this kinda stuff....I want more!! lol
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Arklove said:
I love the way he describes his composition of Don't Stop....From Moonwalk

'Don't Stop had a spoken intro over bass, partly to build up tension and surprise people with the swirling strings and percussion. It was also unusual because of my vocal arrangement. On that cut I sing in overdubs as a kind of group. I wrote myself a high part, one that my solo voice couldn't carry on its own, so I let the arrangement take over from the singing.'

I just love this kinda stuff....I want more!! lol
Click to expand...

Oh my God! Just...wow.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
And it's the song structure as well. I've long used the term 'songs only Michael Jackson could write' in my album reviews. But where most songs are verse - chorus - verse - bridge - chorus. Michael could throw all that it the air and write songs such as Earth Song, Who Is It, WBSS, WYBT where the main part of the song is all in the final third where he'd fly with ad-libs all over the shop.

Who else could write these songs? And sing them perfectly. And produce them?
Click to expand...

Just a genius. His songwriting... prophetic, profound, political... he was a force of nature. "Your proclamation promised me free liberty..." - what a lyric! He was referring to this 'proclamation':

"

The Emancipation Proclamation
President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, as the nation approached its third year of bloody civil war. The proclamation declared "that all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free.""

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

samhabib said:
Oh genius. No question. Again, I'm a huge Prince fan and the difference is - you can teach someone to become a Prince, but you can't teach someone to be a Michael Jackson.

You can't teach a 9 year-old to sing like Michael does at the Motown audition. That's just not 'normal'.
Click to expand...


The difference is Prince had this innate gift to play instruments. Michael had innate gift to move mountains.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

samhabib said:
Just a genius. His songwriting... prophetic, profound, political... he was a force of nature. "Your proclamation promised me free liberty..." - what a lyric! He was referring to this 'proclamation':

"

The Emancipation Proclamation
President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, as the nation approached its third year of bloody civil war. The proclamation declared "that all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free.""

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/
Click to expand...

Exactly, TDCAU lyrics are immense.

And of course, have there even been more uplifting lyrics written than:

Lift Your Head Up High
And Scream Out To The World
I Know I Am Someone
And Let The Truth Unfurl
No One Can Hurt You Now
Because You Know What's True
Yes, I Believe In Me
So You Believe In You
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
And it's the song structure as well. I've long used the term 'songs only Michael Jackson could write' in my album reviews. But where most songs are verse - chorus - verse - bridge - chorus. Michael could throw all that it the air and write songs such as Earth Song, Who Is It, WBSS, WYBT where the main part of the song is all in the final third where he'd fly with ad-libs all over the shop.

Who else could write these songs? And sing them perfectly. And produce them?
Click to expand...

it's great he didn't make all his songs like 3 and a half minutes long either and developed them as proper compositions. They are so musical, he's got that lovely kinda bass flute solo in who is it or whatever it is. The harmonic basis is sometimes simple, but the level of care over the arrangement the structure etc is from a true musician, not just a singer. And in will you be there, the way he keeps the beat running throughout, even though it might be tempting to change it, it brings all the sections together. He knew exactly what he was doing with his songs.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

samhabib said:
Just a genius. His songwriting... prophetic, profound, political... he was a force of nature. "Your proclamation promised me free liberty..." - what a lyric! He was referring to this 'proclamation':

"

The Emancipation Proclamation
President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, as the nation approached its third year of bloody civil war. The proclamation declared "that all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free.""

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/
Click to expand...


Two of my favorite lyrics are "DANGEROUS" and "SHOUT". They're perfect.


SHOUT

Verse
Ignorance of people purchasing diamonds and necklaces,
And barely able to keep the payments up on their lessons,
And enrolled in a class and don?t know who the professor is,
How low people go for the dough and make a mess of things,
Kids are murdering other kids for the fun of it,
Instead of using their mind or their fist, they put a gun in it
Wanna be a part of a clique, don?t know who?s running it,
Tragedy on top of tragedy you know it?s killing me.
So many people in agony, this shouldn?t have to be,
Too busy focusing on ourselves and not His Majesty,
There has to be some type of change for this day and age,
We gotta rearrange and flip the page,
Living encaged like animals and cannibals,
Eating each other alive just to survive the nine to five,
Every single day is trouble while we struggle and strive
Peace of mind?s so hard to find.

Chorus
I wanna shout, throw my hands up and shout
What?s this madness all about
All this makes me wanna shout
You know it makes me wanna shout,
Throw my hands up and shout
What?s this madness all about
All this makes me wanna shout, c?mon now

Verse 2
Problems, complications and accusations
Dividing the nations and races of empty faces
A war is taking place.
No substitution for restitution, the only solution for peace
Is increasing the height of your spirituality.
Masses of minds are shrouded, clouded visions
Deceptions and indecision, no faith or religion, how we?re living.
The clock is ticking, the end is coming, there?ll be no warning,
But we live to see the dawn.

Bridge
How can we preach, when all we make this world to be
Is a living hell torturing our minds.
We all must unite, to turn darkness to light,
And the love in our hearts will shine.

Verse 3
We?re disconnected from love, we?re disrespecting each other
Whatever happened to protecting each other
Poisoned your body and your soul for a minute of pleasure,
But the damage that you?ve done is gonna last forever.
Babies being born in the world already drug addicted and afflicted,
Family values are contradicted.
Ashes to ashes and dust to dust, the pressure is building and I?ve had enough.







This last sentence was truly prophetic
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I do have to admit, there is in fact something missing from these songs. Even at his worse, Michael sounded better than most, example being...




Britney basically did an assault and battery to this song, something had to be done, and instead of syncing, he did his rest of the verse live. Still, sounding better than most singers, at a time where he wasn't 100%. Not only that, but his overall stage presence was unmatchable.



Boy do I miss him.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

MJultimatemusiclegen said:
it's great he didn't make all his songs like 3 and a half minutes long either and developed them as proper compositions. They are so musical, he's got that lovely kinda bass flute solo in who is it or whatever it is. The harmonic basis is sometimes simple, but the level of care over the arrangement the structure etc is from a true musician, not just a singer. And in will you be there, the way he keeps the beat running throughout, even though it might be tempting to change it, it brings all the sections together. He knew exactly what he was doing with his songs.
Click to expand...

Ah, you're gonna get me on another topic now.

The MJ intro & outro.

Will You Be There intro
Little Susie intro
Give In To Me outro (so massive)
Don't Stop intro
Dangerous intro

etc...etc

So much thought went into every little second of every single song. Especially on Dangerous (album). No fade outs on there, every song has a specially composed introduction & outro.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Tony R said:
Exactly, TDCAU lyrics are immense.

And of course, have there even been more uplifting lyrics written than:

Lift Your Head Up High
And Scream Out To The World
I Know I Am Someone
And Let The Truth Unfurl
No One Can Hurt You Now
Because You Know What's True
Yes, I Believe In Me
So You Believe In You
Click to expand...

That's pure Jesse Jackson right there. "I am someone" = Jesse's Civil Rights mantra "I am somebody..."

There's science in those lyrics right there.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Two of my favorite lyrics are "DANGEROUS" and "SHOUT". They're perfect.


SHOUT

Verse
Ignorance of people purchasing diamonds and necklaces,
And barely able to keep the payments up on their lessons,
And enrolled in a class and don?t know who the professor is,
How low people go for the dough and make a mess of things,
Kids are murdering other kids for the fun of it,
Instead of using their mind or their fist, they put a gun in it
Wanna be a part of a clique, don?t know who?s running it,
Tragedy on top of tragedy you know it?s killing me.
So many people in agony, this shouldn?t have to be,
Too busy focusing on ourselves and not His Majesty,
There has to be some type of change for this day and age,
We gotta rearrange and flip the page,
Living encaged like animals and cannibals,
Eating each other alive just to survive the nine to five,
Every single day is trouble while we struggle and strive
Peace of mind?s so hard to find.

Chorus
I wanna shout, throw my hands up and shout
What?s this madness all about
All this makes me wanna shout
You know it makes me wanna shout,
Throw my hands up and shout
What?s this madness all about
All this makes me wanna shout, c?mon now

Verse 2
Problems, complications and accusations
Dividing the nations and races of empty faces
A war is taking place.
No substitution for restitution, the only solution for peace
Is increasing the height of your spirituality.
Masses of minds are shrouded, clouded visions
Deceptions and indecision, no faith or religion, how we?re living.
The clock is ticking, the end is coming, there?ll be no warning,
But we live to see the dawn.

Bridge
How can we preach, when all we make this world to be
Is a living hell torturing our minds.
We all must unite, to turn darkness to light,
And the love in our hearts will shine.

Verse 3
We?re disconnected from love, we?re disrespecting each other
Whatever happened to protecting each other
Poisoned your body and your soul for a minute of pleasure,
But the damage that you?ve done is gonna last forever.
Babies being born in the world already drug addicted and afflicted,
Family values are contradicted.
Ashes to ashes and dust to dust, the pressure is building and I?ve had enough.







This last sentence was truly prophetic
Click to expand...

That song is genius...And his vocal delivery? WOW....I heard once that he sang this song without looking at the lyrics...Not sure how true that is...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
The difference is Prince had this innate gift to play instruments. Michael had innate gift to move mountains.
Click to expand...

i don't wanna start this off. But there are so many great instrumentalists out there, much better than prince and all other acts famous for being instrumentalists. So i've never been a fan of that argument. But there are few if any better dancers than Michael jackson, at least from an influential point of view, there's hardly any voices that are more iconic, there are no better songwriters out there, there are no better music video makers out there, who know exactly what people are gonna want. It's all a subjective thing ever. But MJ was the best or one of the best of all time at many catergories of things to do with entertainment, the ultimate music legend aha. Thats why he's so special to me, and above it all a great great person.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

MJultimatemusiclegen said:
i don't wanna start this off. But there are so many great instrumentalists out there, much better than prince and all other acts famous for being instrumentalists. So i've never been a fan of that argument. But there are few if any better dancers than Michael jackson, at least from an influential point of view, there's hardly any voices that are more iconic, there are no better songwriters out there, there are no better music video makers out there, who know exactly what people are gonna want. It's all a subjective thing ever. But MJ was the best or one of the best of all time at many catergories of things to do with entertainment, the ultimate music legend aha. Thats why he's so special to me, and above it all a great great person.
Click to expand...


I meant Prince could easily learn to play instruments --27 or something! It's innate. Not many musicians can do that.
 
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