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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
You take an MJ song --HEARTBREAKER instrumental-- you sing in another language over it and it doesn't fall under COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT????

Litterally millions of people know the song, but I doubt that they know it is Michael's!

Here another video with copyright infringement --TDCAU-- sang in another language with nearly a million views!
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are the lyrics same? wouldn't it be a cover? I really haven't heard of any artist suing their fans for covering their songs and posting them on youtube. It's generally seen as flattery. (again no malice , no profit).

Again aren't you comparing 2 different things? So what, if Sony is okay with covers and Cascio isn't okay with negative videos about him? So what, if Sony thinks singing MJ's songs in multiple languages is showing how much he's loved around the world and Cascio thinks those videos hurt his reputation?

(remember there's no automatic copyright infringement, it has to be at least once reported or they had to make a request to be included in the content id detection system with submitting reference audio / video to youtube. Sony not complaining about possible infringement [ or picking and choosing what to report ] doesn't mean that Cascio / Porte / Teddy / Jason cannot complain as well. They are different people and entities from Sony. If they want to file a complaint, they can. It's that simple really).
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
are the lyrics same? wouldn't it be a cover? I really haven't heard of any artist suing their fans for covering their songs and posting them on youtube. It's generally seen as flattery. (again no malice , no profit).

Again aren't you comparing 2 different things? So what if Sony is okay with covers and Cascio isn't okay with negative videos about him?
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No, I am not comparing 2 different things. You made me to.

1st you say that there is a defamation video for Eddie and Teddy even though the reason for their remove is COPYRIGHT. When I show the video of MJ being in the same position where you can clearly see defamation, the video is not removed, and you find an excuse to it as not harmful even if MJ's ear is stapled back or surrounded by Teddy bears.

So, as you claim that the video is not harmful and not considered as defamation, i show you the example of a pure copyright infringement, and you say there is no copyright infringement because the lyrics wouldn't be the same???? I even didn't talkabout lyrics, but MUSIC copyright. Furthermore you call it a flattery!!!!! Wow, I just wonder why Manu Dibango isn't flattered by the King of Pop?

I see excuses after excuses.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

sony is running scared. they're issuing "warnings" against leaking the cascio tracks to fans that don't even HAVE them. They're literally trolling the forums and twitter just "guessing" who might have access. the other cascio tracks would have been leaked already if sony wasn't going around threatening people. Sooner or later, they WILL come out.

as i said, i really don't even care at this point if they leak. i don't want to listen to jason malachi sing any more. BUT, i still want them to leak anyway b/c hopefully it will make it more obvious to --ANYONE-- who is still grasping at straws.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The first video posted by Bumper is PLAGIARISM. It's a direct rip-off of Heartbreaker. It's not a cover. It's not sampling. Everything from the melody, to harmony to instrumentals to backgrround vocals to the "AH AH AH's" are the same. And millions of Pakistanis may not even know the song is from Michael's Invincible... It's beyond me why no action has been taken. I read the ending credit of the video. Michael Jackson, Rodney Jerkins and the other writers of Heartbreaker are not credited.

To me the third video and the forth video are a thousand times more humiliating and insulting than Reddy Teddy. I wish Sony Music Entertainment can spend more time on removing this kind of sickening videos.

It's totally disgusting. I don't want to know the number of people who watched these type of extremely tasteless parodies and believe Michael was a freak.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
The first video posted by Bumper is PLAGIARISM. It's a direct rip-off of Heartbreaker. It's not a cover. It's not sampling. Everything from the melody, to harmony to instrumentals to backgrround vocals to the "AH AH AH's" are the same. And millions of Pakistanis may not even know the song is from Michael's Invincible... It's beyond me why no action has been taken. I read the ending credit of the video. Michael Jackson, Rodney Jerkins and the other writers of Heartbreaker are not credited.

To me the third video and the forth video are a thousand times more humiliating and insulting than Reddy Teddy. I wish Sony Music Entertainment can spend more time on removing this kind of sickening videos.

It's totally disgusting. I don't want to know the number of people who watched these type of extremely tasteless parodies and believe Michael was a freak.
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Apparently for Ivy, Reddy Teddy is worse.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That Pakistani Heartbreaker is not flattering. It's a RIP OFF. It's plagerism. They stole the song. They even stole the vocal delivery style. It's not a fan cover. Come on! There is no orginal element in it.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Okay let's clear it up.

I hadn't seen "Reddy Teddy" and after Cartman uploaded I first watched it the thing that first grabbed my attention was the malicious falsehood. I posted that info as a friendly warning to people here as we have seen "cease and desists" and "banning" requests.

I never claimed that video was removed due to defamation, on the contrary I said that youtube doesn't have direct reporting system for defamation and it requires some sort of legal complaint at least.

Then it was assumed that as it was a "copyright claim" it had to be about the song used in the video. I simply proved that copyright isn't limited to the songs and it can solely be about the video and even pictures in the video. So you cannot determine what the copyright claim was based on for certain.

Defamation of Michael / hurting of his reputation is no longer possible as he's dead. According to US Law dead do not have reputations and cannot be defamed. so that 3rd and 4th video cannot be removed with defamation complaint. but like I said you can add them to the "youtube clean up" project list. And defamation debate is not really relevant here as the Teddy video wasn't removed for defamation.

As for the videos you posted there could be music copyright infringement in some but like I said they wouldn't be removed unless they are at least once reported or added into the system. It shows you that Sony isn't filing complaints about such things.

and again just because Sony isn't filing complaints, it doesn't mean that Cascio / Porte / Riley / Malachi can't. Their actions aren't dependent on what Sony does or doesn't do (in other words your examples). If they have the right, they can simply file a claim and youtube can remove the videos.

I'll also repeat that you are comparing different things. So Sony might be okay with leaving every TDCAU cover on youtube, while blocking every Monster from Michael at America. Or Sony might choose to complain about nothing and Jab Me Music could complain about anything and everything they can find.

ps: I wouldn't call the law an excuse.

ps2: where did I say it wouldn't be copyright infringement as the lyrics aren't the same? you had thriller video remake and called it a video infringement. I gave the example of andy warhol and new artistic addition principle. I called the other videos "covers" and most probably wouldn't generate complaints as they are showing fan tributes and do not include the element of profit or malice.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
That Pakistani Heartbreaker is not flattering. It's a RIP OFF. It's plagerism. They stole the song. They even stole the vocal delivery style. It's not a fan cover. Come on! There is no orginal element in it.
Click to expand...

And the name of the album is: "The Dangerous" :D
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

whatever the case may be with copyright laws, requests for removal, etc, it's clear that their priorities are covering up their intentional fraud instead of upholding michael's legacy. at least that much is obvious to me.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
Okay let's clear it up.

I hadn't seen "Reddy Teddy" and after Cartman uploaded I first watched it the thing that first grabbed my attention was the malicious falsehood. I posted that info as a friendly warning to people here as we have seen "cease and desists" and "banning" requests.

I never claimed that video was removed due to defamation, on the contrary I said that youtube doesn't have direct reporting system for defamation and it requires some sort of legal complaint at least.

Then it was assumed that as it was a "copyright claim" it had to be about the song used in the video. I simply proved that copyright isn't limited to the songs and it can solely be about the video and even pictures in the video. So you cannot determine what the copyright claim was based on for certain.

Defamation of Michael / hurting of his reputation is no longer possible as he's dead. According to US Law dead do not have reputations and cannot be defamed. And is not really relevant as the Teddy video wasn't removed for defamation.

As for the videos you posted there could be music copyright infringement in some but like I said they wouldn't be removed unless they are at least once reported or added into the system. It shows you that Sony isn't filing complaints about such things.

and again just because Sony isn't filing complaints, it doesn't mean that Cascio / Porte / Riley / Malachi can't. Their actions aren't dependent on what Sony does or doesn't do (in other words your examples). If they have the right, they can simply file a claim and youtube can remove the videos.

I'll also repeat that you are comparing different things. So Sony might be okay with leaving every TDCAU cover on youtube, while blocking every Monster from Michael at America. Or Sony might choose to complain about nothing and Jab Me Music could complain about anything and everything they can find.

ps: I wouldn't call the law an excuse.

ps2: where did I say it wouldn't be copyright infringement as the lyrics aren't the same? you had thriller video remake and called it a video infringement. I gave the example of andy warhol and new artistic addition principle. I called the other videos "covers" and most probably wouldn't generate complaints as they are showing fan tributes and do not include the element of profit or malice.
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Yes they do. They requested to ban Pentum and Kapital for a simple link, but no action taken for the rip offs. Many mockeries were made against MJ when he was alive, well most of them actually.

You seem to defend all actions tooth and nails when it comes to Teddy and the Cascios and not when it comes to Michael. I am just appalled.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
And the name of the album is: "The Dangerous" :D
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I KNOW. Everything is copy, even the dance is copy. OMG...

BOSNA TDCAU??? :bugeyed

I can't believe what I heard. I wonder whether there are Russian YRMW, Bangladashi SIM, Thai RTT, Chinese WII, etc...

If a direct rip-off is not copyright infringement, I don't know what is...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Apparently for Ivy, Reddy Teddy is worse.
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correction: not apparently for me , apparently for law.

Law says you cannot defame a dead person or hurt their reputation.

Law says allegations of moral turpitude crimes is defamation per se - kinda automatic defamation that doesn't require the showing of any harm.

Law says "intentional false statements to hurt someone's business reputation" is malicious falsehood.

So I would really appreciate if you can separate between what is the law and what is my opinion.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

why are we even TRYING to defend these losers? seriously, they spit on us and tell us it's raining, and now we're in here defending their actions? they have shown absolutely 0 respect for us or Michael, why show any respect for them? i'd rather defend people who deserve to be defended. like michael jackson.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

i'm horrified. how many videos, like the third and the forth one posted by bumper, are now circulating on youtube? :(
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Yes they do. They requested to ban Pentum and Kapital for a simple link, but no action taken for the rip offs. Many mockeries were made against MJ when he was alive, well most of them actually.
Click to expand...

seen this part ?

So Sony might be okay with leaving every TDCAU cover on youtube, while blocking every Monster from Michael at America.
Click to expand...

They can pick and choose what to report and what not to report. For example they could be more sensitive about action against not released / can be released in the future songs and do not care about songs released 15+ years ago.

As for the mockery / defamation again there's no easy complaint system at youtube. Do you see Michael having a legal team going after making legal complaints for every youtube video? (And defamation of Micheal -when alive- wouldn't be something that Sony could make a complaint of. It had to came from Michael's personal representatives /lawyers).

And once more let me remind you of the youtube clean up project

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...uTube-video-clean-up...NOW-Monthly-Initiative
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
correction: not apparently for me , apparently for law.

Law says you cannot defame a dead person or hurt their reputation.

Law says allegations of moral turpitude crimes is defamation per se - kinda automatic defamation that doesn't require the showing of any harm.

Law says "intentional false statements to hurt someone's business reputation" is malicious falsehood.

So I would really appreciate if you can separate between what is the law and what is my opinion.
Click to expand...

Michael was mocked before death, no action was taken. So neither the law nor the excuse of death have anything to do with the situation.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
seen this part ?



They can pick and choose what to report and what not to report. For example they could be more sensitive about action against not released / can be released in the future songs and do not care about songs released 15+ years ago.

As for the mockery / defamation again there's no easy complaint system at youtube. Do you see Michael having a legal team going after making legal complaints for every youtube video? (And defamation of Micheal -when alive- wouldn't be something that Sony could make a complaint of. It had to came from Michael's personal representatives /lawyers).

And once more let me remind you of the youtube clean up project

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...uTube-video-clean-up...NOW-Monthly-Initiative
Click to expand...

Maybe we should start a project by cleaning:

550w_music_artwork_michael_jackson_michael_cover.jpg


from

michael-teddy-riley-eddie-cascio.png
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You seem to defend all actions tooth and nails when it comes to Teddy and the Cascios and not when it comes to Michael. I am just appalled.
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sorry but this is hurtful. do not forget that I'm not the person that runs Sony / MJ Estate or makes any decisions. Once again please separate the law from my opinion. You cannot blame me for how the law is written and how it works. I'm a extremely realistic person. As I know that now it's not possible to make a defamation claim, I cannot go around and write "oh why they aren't removing this stuff?". I know the answer and my realistic approach and legal information doesn't allow me to deny reality.


BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Michael was mocked before death, no action was taken. So neither the law nor the excuse of death have anything to do with the situation.
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I answered this before. You cannot blame Sony for it as they wouldn't have the legal grounds to make a "defamation" claim for Michael. That's a question for Michael and his representatives and lawyers. However I can probably give you a logical explanation that it would be a never ending task to go after every single video done about him. I gave the example of Eminem's video before which is the most visible of such mockeries I guess. What did Michael do? Other than saying that he was hurt? Any lawsuit? No? And how is that different from the youtube videos?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

a relatively harmless video with just two seconds of eddie's picture is being removed because of copyright infringement...

yet, day in and day out, thousands and thousands of rip off of michael's hard works and thousands and thousands of derogatory videos are freely circulating...

what has this world become? how come priorities are upside down?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
sorry but this is hurtful. Once again please separate the law from my opinion. You cannot blame me for how the law is. and do not forget that I'm not the person that runs Sony / MJ Estate or makes any decisions.



I answered this before. You cannot blame Sony for it as they wouldn't have the legal grounds to make a "defamation" claim for Michael. That's a question for Michael and his representatives and lawyers. However I can probably give you a logical explanation that it would be a never ending task to go after every single video done about him. I gave the example of Eminem's video before which is the most visible of such mockeries I guess. What did Michael do? Other than saying that he was hurt? Any lawsuit? No? And how is that different from the youtube videos?
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No matter the situation, you always turn it in the advantage of the Cascio and teddy regarding the legal actions.

You are even not questioning them, nor the Cascio songs.

To remind you:

Not only they don't sound Michael, but they contain melodies from other MJ's songs:

"All I need" contains YANA.
"Soldier boy" apparently TDCAU.
"Water" contains "Heaven can wait"

and you are still sticking to your opinion that those songs might be MJ's, despite all the comparison videos. On top of that you seem to justify all the video removals, but find it normal MJ's aren't. How not to have impression to defend the Cascios or Teddy?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ivy, is the MJ Online Team aware of the clean up project? It's very depressing. I'll do my part by participating in the big weekend removal.

However, I really think the Estate should spend some efforts in having the extremely disgusting youtube videos removed.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
You are even not questioning them, nor the Cascio songs.
Click to expand...

I did, I do.

Not only they don't sound Michael
Click to expand...

according to you. I told that I heard Michael.


and you are still sticking to your opinion that those songs might be MJ's, despite all the comparison videos
Click to expand...

I wrote my opinion about the comparison videos, remember? I hear Cascio singer and Jason having different styles and techniques.

On top of that you seem to justify all the video removals
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the law, not me

How not to have impression to defend the Cascios or Teddy?
Click to expand...

read the law, have a realistic approach about copyright and defamation and who can file what complaint.

See our difference is in our emotional versus realistic approach. You look to that video and see defamation and emotionally argue that "oh how could they leave this video on there? they should have removed it , complaint on roof tops, that's far more important than other stuff". I look to that video even though I see the mockery my realistic approach tells me "unfortunately Michael is dead, they don't have any grounds for complaint". I see this as a simple factual realistic approach, you again approaching it emotionally asking me "why aren't you advocating for removal of these / complaints about them?Don't you love Michael?". I realistically tell you "because it can't happen regardless of how much I love Michael." and you again emotionally choose to blame me or see me as this evil enemy as your heart doesn't let you accept the sad reality.

So again I would really wish to be not blamed for the law and what can be or can't be done.


Ivy, is the MJ Online Team aware of the clean up project? It's very depressing. I'll do my part by participating in the big weekend removal.

However, I really think the Estate should spend some efforts in having the extremely disgusting youtube videos removed.
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yes they know. However they can't do anything against defamation unfortunately. The only possible action now is high number of people flagging the videos inappropriate in the hopes that youtube would remove it. Sometimes we are successful sometimes we aren't. But at least we try and do our part in defending Michael.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

so on my to-do list:

1. email to dangerous book in the uk
2. send a complaint letter to sony to ask for refund
3. flag disgusting youtube videos

why so many people want to hurt michael? it cuts like a knife. why people cannot see the beauty in him? why? o why?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

hmmmm, "jason malachi" has not yet been defined on urbandictionary.com who wants to help me with that? ;) :angel:
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Just got home from work and read the latest posts.

Okay, so when I first heard the video had been taken down by JAB ME, i too thought that was pretty damn eerie.

But even before ivy made her post, I did also question the use of Teddy's video and Eddie's image and in the context they were being used.

Now, if Eddie and Porte are pretty much associated together, I can see why it would be taken down.

But MOST likely it was due to someone reporting or closely monitoring this whole thing, like Sony themselves, Porte, or members like KingMikeJ who have taken it upon themselves to report.

Could have been for that reason!

But I still find the whole thing very bizarre.

I see ivy's point and I also see BUMPER SNIPPETs and the rest's point and agree with them. I also find it sick that those videos remain but something like this is taken down. It's just not right. We need answers, not some shadow force removing videos and sending out warnings to innocent fans.

They put us in this situation! If they had some evidence, we'd be out of this situation, but the tracks must be fake, because we're still here.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram said:
Just got home from work and read the latest posts.

Okay, so when I first heard the video had been taken down by JAB ME, i too thought that was pretty damn eerie.

But even before ivy made her post, I did also question the use of Teddy's video and Eddie's image and in the context they were being used.

Now, if Eddie and Porte are pretty much associated together, I can see why it would be taken down.

But MOST likely it was due to someone reporting or closely monitoring this whole thing, like Sony themselves, Porte, or members like KingMikeJ who have taken it upon themselves to report.

Could have been for that reason!

But I still find the whole thing very bizarre.
Click to expand...

Let's remove Eddie from the video and see what happens.Isn't it a good idea?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I thought that was a good idea until ivy said what she said about them just doing a quick scan. Then they could do that counter-claim thing, but I'm not sure what will happen.

More things like this needs to happen, though, where they might reveal themselves.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram said:
I thought that was a good idea until ivy said what she said about them just doing a quick scan. Then they could do that counter-claim thing, but I'm not sure what will happen.

More things like this needs to happen, though, where they might reveal themselves.
Click to expand...

I kinda missed some things over here.I got different exams at school.I got only 4 now, 1 today (English, it's easy :D ).So you're a doubter right now?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I am pretty sure it's not Michael on most of the vocals on the Cascio songs we've heard so far, minus the copy-and-pastes. I think the comparisons make it pretty obvious who the singer likely is! but I'm just going by my gut instinct and what I hear... I'm still trying to figure this whole thing out..

It's such a horrific disrespect to Michael and his fans that this is going on.
 
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