Michael - The Great Album Debate

[StellaJackson]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Friedman heard the songs in 2006. They were registered in 2009. By my calculation that's AT LEAST 3 years. In those 3 years they couldn't write better lyrics than that?

The lyrical content is COMPLETELY relevant. Because Michael Jackson never recorded bullshit lyrics. COMPLETELY relevant. (Let's see all the fans claim that Michael did record bullshit lyrics...)

I disagree with you, but please stop swearing in all your posts. It's not necessary and is somewhat an abuse of the English language.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

I disagree with you, but please stop swearing in all your posts. It's not necessary and is somewhat an abuse of the English language.

What point do you disagree on?

It's completely accurate to describe the lyrics as 'bullshit', but fair enough. I'll think of another word.

Pathetic? Pathetic lyrics? Hmmmm... I'll think of something.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Changing the songs 'in some way'....As love is magical said, how much is too much? Even if these songs are sung by Michael, it's absolutely disgusting what they've done to the songs to make them 'releasable'.....HT is a posthumous release, BTM, MTS, BOJ.....These Cascio songs are a mess and are a complete, complete insult to Michael's artistic integrity.....I find it mind-boggling that anyone can accept these tracks in the state they're in, whether they're Michael or not..

All songs on the Michael album are posthumouse releases. They are not perfect. They are not up to Michael's standards. I don't know whether to laugh or to cry when I heard people saying Michael is a better album than Invincible. Oh well... musical tasete is subjective. But, objectively speaking, the production value and vocal quality of Michael is nowhere near any one of Michael's stuido albums. When I listen to Holloywood Tonight, I always imagine how great it would have become if Michael was able to complete the song. But, I accept the song. I don't love it. But, I appreciate the efforts. The Cascio tracks are definitely not in the same league.

I remember Free As A Bird by the Beatles. John Lennon's part is of low quality. But, it's still John Lennon. Free As A Bird is a mediocre song; still, it didn't get people scratch their heads and ask who the hell is singing.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

I'm not an expert on posthumous release. Actually, I don't own any. I just base my opinon from a fan's perspective. No business consideration. No financial consideration.

Finishing an unfinished song someway. What someway means? How far is too far? How much is too much?

To me, Hollywood Tonight is an unfinished song finished in someway. It's acceptable. Same as BoJ, Another Day and MTS.

But, if you are telling me there is an unfinished song that is only 2% done and the producers complete the remaining 98% and such song find its way to be an official Michael Jackson song. Then, I'm truly saddened and angered.

I gave examples here on this thread multiple times. I'll do it one more.

Beatles - used John Lennon's demo vocals that he left on a tape recorder (low quality). They processed it to make them sound better. Several Beatles fans protested against "processing" and argue that the vocals should have been left as it is. They were against the additions Beatles did after Lennon's death. Some wanted it to be released the way he left it (demo on a tape recorder without any finishing additions).

so beatles - lennon example shows you that "processing but how much or don't touch them " debate"

Tupac shakur - actually was paranoid that he will be killed and left hundreds of songs ready to be released. His initial albums were well received and did really well but as the releases went on they lost quality , had processing and additional vocals / duets added to finish the songs.

Tupac Shakur example shows that there could be finished materials need less work and there could be not so finished materials that need more work and additions.

Notorious B.I.G - 2 posthumous albums were released in a duet format. They took unused verses from already released songs, they took previously released verses and unreleased demo verses , got other artists to come up and create songs. It was criticized by some fans as "not enough Biggie" , "artists that he wouldn't work with when alive are now included in his albums (not representative of his vision, style)" and that "his previously released materials are used to create new songs".

so notorios B.I.G example shows - additional vocals / parts to finish songs and the use of already released parts on the songs as well as a cut-paste approach.

And actually Michael did took part in Notorious B.I.G. posthumous releases. He took an already released verse and included in his Invincible album and gave him credit.

As you can see the conditions and the fan criticism in regards to the songs processing and finishing and release is not really that different that what we are having from now and that's what I call "reality of posthumous releases".

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

It's reality?....doesn't mean it's acceptable....that's my problem.....If a buy a product, why would I accept second-rate? My money is buying these products...If people want to accept these tracks the way they are, they're more than welcome to....I just don't understand how they can. You're not gonna pay up the ass for a Porsche and not get what you paid for.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

I gave examples here on this thread multiple times. I'll do it one more.

Beatles - used John Lennon's demo vocals that he left on a tape recorder (low quality). They processed it to make them sound better. Several Beatles fans protested against "processing" and argue that the vocals should have been left as it is. They were against the additions Beatles did after Lennon's death. Some wanted it to be released the way he left it (demo on a tape recorder without any finishing additions).

so beatles - lennon example shows you that "processing but how much or don't touch them " debate"

Tupac shakur - actually was paranoid that he will be killed and left hundreds of songs ready to be released. His initial albums were well received and did really well but as the releases went on they lost quality , had processing and additional vocals / duets added to finish the songs.

Tupac Shakur example shows that there could be finished materials need less work and there could be not so finished materials that need more work and additions.

Notorious B.I.G - 2 posthumous albums were released in a duet format. They took unused verses from already released songs, they took previously released verses and unreleased demo verses , got other artists to come up and create songs. It was criticized by some fans as "not enough Biggie" , "artists that he wouldn't work with when alive are now included in his albums (not representative of his vision, style)" and that "his previously released materials are used to create new songs".

so notorios B.I.G example shows - additional vocals / parts to finish songs and the use of already released parts on the songs as well as a cut-paste approach.

And actually Michael did took part in Notorious B.I.G. posthumous releases. He took an already released verse and included in his Invincible album and gave him credit.

As you can see the conditions and the fan criticism in regards to the songs processing and finishing and release is not really that different that what we are having from now and that's what I call "reality of posthumous releases".

None of that comes close to this abomination. No one doubted John Lennon's vocals on Free As A Bird or Real Love. That's the crux of this debate.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

I gave examples here on this thread multiple times. I'll do it one more.

Beatles - used John Lennon's demo vocals that he left on a tape recorder (low quality). They processed it to make them sound better. Several Beatles fans protested against "processing" and argue that the vocals should have been left as it is.

so beatles - lennon example shows you that "processing but how much debate"

Tupac shakur - actually was paranoid that he will be killed and left hundreds of songs ready to be released. His initial albums were well received and did really well but as the releases went on they lost quality , had processing and additional vocals / duets added to finish the songs.

Tupac Shakur example shows that there could be finished materials need less work and there could be not so finished materials that need more work and additions.

Notorious B.I.G - 2 posthumous albums were released in a duet format. They took unused verses from already released songs, they took previously released verses and unreleased demo verses , got other artists to come up and create songs. It was criticized by some fans as "not enough Biggie" , "artists that he wouldn't work with when alive are now included in his albums" and that "his previously released materials are used to create new songs".

so notorios B.I.G example shows - additional vocals / parts to finish songs and the use of already released parts on the songs as well as a cut-paste approach.

And actually Michael did took part in Notorious B.I.G. posthumous releases. He took an already released verse and included in his Invincible album and gave him credit.

As you can see the conditions and the fan criticism in regards to the songs processing and finishing is not really that different that what we are having from now and that's what I call "reality of posthumous releases".

Thanks for the examples. I love Biggie's part in Unbreakable. A song well made and respectfully done.

I disagree with you that the difference between what we are discussing now and the reality of posthumous releases is minimal. Take a look to what I just said. I mentioned I know posthumous releases are not perfect and will be in more inferior quality.

Have fans of Biggie, Tupac or the Beatles questioned whether who's the lead vocalist after listening the posthumous release?

See, none of us has major issue with the supposedly lower quality of HT and Another Day. We sigh and accept reality. We understand those songs are completed after Michael's passing.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Yes, Ivy....it's reality....doesn't mean it's acceptable....that's my problem.....If a buy a product, why would I accept second-rate? My money is buying these products...If people want to accept these tracks the way they are, they're more than welcome to....I just don't understand how they can. You're not gonna pay up the ass for a Porsche and not get what you paid for.

acceptable or not is a personal choice. if you don't approve such practices then you don't buy it. If someone else is okay with them , they it's their choice.

My point is again in regards to processing, finishing and release this is how the posthumous releases work , it was this way before Michael died, it will be this way after his death. So arguing about the methods is not really productive. However everyone has a personal choice to buy or not buy and it's not really correct to compare an album / song that he finished and released in his lifetime to a posthumous release as they are completely different in nature.

and the thing is they aren't selling you a porche, they never claimed to. They said these are the songs "recently brought to competition" by people that worked with Michael. so they are saying to you "the designer of porche put a few lines on a piece of paper but didn't finish it. we brought in people that we believe that can finish the porche and that's what we are selling to you".

I disagree with you that the difference between what we are discussing now and the reality of posthumous releases is minimal. Take a look to what I just said. I mentioned I know posthumous releases are not perfect and will be in more inferior quality.

Have fans of Biggie, Tupac or the Beatles questioned whether who's the lead vocalist after listening the posthumous release?

No. and I bolded "in regards to the songs processing and finishing and release" to show that I wasn't addressing the vocals issue. Yes the one difference we have is the vocal authenticity but that's not proven. It's a personal opinion debate.

there's been a recent release of an Elvis Demo that raised an authenticity debate. So that also happens as well.

Plus if you agree that parts of those songs to be Michael, additional vocals can fall under the general practice of posthumous releases.

 

[Kapital77]

The Estate? John Mclain didn't want the Cascio songs on the album. So which part of the 'Estate' argued for them to be on there?

Sony have fucked up everything from about June 25 2009 onwards. The lies surrounding This Is It, the debacle that is the Visions boxset and then the complete abomination of the Cascio songs.

Go team!

10000% with you.

 

[Kapital77]

Branca has all the powers.

He will sell the Beatles catalog to Sony before the kids grow up.

It's al about M.O.N.E.Y.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

and the thing is they aren't selling you a porche, they never claimed to. They said these are the songs "recently brought to competition" by people that worked with Michael. so they are saying to you "the designer of porche put a few lines on a piece of paper but didn't finish it. we brought in people that we believe that can finish the porche and that's what we are selling to you".

They aren't selling me a Porsche? That's for sure! However, Michael Jackson is in the same league as a Porsche, posthumously or not...His music should be treated as such....If a Porsche was completed in an equal manner to which the Cascio tracks have been 'completed', then why would anyone in their right mind buy it? I would say the same thing to the potential consumer of an actual Porsche....'You're not gonna actually buy that, are you?' and I'd certainly expect them to ponder that...

And going from a 'few lines' written to what we have now of the Cascio songs...that ain't a Porsche, and that ain't Michael Jackson...

And, as I said, people can accept the garbage that is these songs.....I don't...

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

How do you know it's not Michael Jackson?

They've processed and butchered these songs.

Todays technology can do so many things to a voice.

The Cascio voice has always sounded more like a robot, to me, than Jason Malachi.

I think one of the hardest things for Malachi to imitate is actually speaking like Michael Jackson. And there are several parts where Michael speaks in this Cascio tracks and it sounds just like Michael, to me. In that Soldier Boy clip there's a part like that.

Now I'm not saying this is a substantial argument or anything you're supposed to just accept. This is only my thought.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Lol @ writing the lyrics for 12 complete songs in the duration of two days.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Lol @ writing the lyrics for 12 complete songs in the duration of two days.

LOL at Michael Jackson taking over 3 years to write 'Killing up the life in the birds and the trees'

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

How do you know it's not Michael Jackson?

How do you know it is? That's the point....You're not gonna buy a Porsche if you don't even know if it's a Porsche or not...If it doesn't even look like a Porsche...

 

[Kapital77]

How do you know it's not Michael Jackson?

They've processed and butchered these songs.

Todays technology can do so many things to a voice.

The Cascio voice has always sounded more like a robot, to me, than Jason Malachi.

I think one of the hardest things for Malachi to imitate is actually speaking like Michael Jackson. And there are several parts where Michael speaks in this Cascio tracks and it sounds just like Michael, to me. In that Soldier Boy clip there's a part like that.

Now I'm not saying this is a substantial argument or anything you're supposed to just accept. This is only my thought.

Aniram, it is imposible that you recognize it is not Mj. I'm sorry to read your answer. We can't do nothing to show you the light.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

How do you know it is? That's the point....You're not gonna buy a Porsche if you don't even know if it's a Porsche or not...If it doesn't even look like a Porsche...

Well said

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

I never said I knew it was for certain. I just said I hear him.

I like "Killing up the life in the birds and the trees".

Honestly, you have to admit that even though these tracks may be mediocre, they are miles and miles above anything song Malachi ever wrote. I can't stand How I Do, Bigger Man, Critical, Let Me Let Go, etc. They are horrible songs.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

It's a lot more plausible for these songs to be from pre-existing lyrics that had been slightly edited. Than it would be for these songs to be completely new, started from scratch and completed within 48 hours.


Not many artist has the time or drive to write an albums worth of material in two days. And from the way you refer to the Cascio's and their talents, they wouldn't be a part of the exceptional one's that would.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Eddie was very busy when Michael died. He heard the news and immediately went to writing as quickly as he could, jotting ideas down!!!

 

[claudiadoina]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

I've just finished to listen WATW -demo version and Someone Put Your Hand Out.

Please the one who said Michael did also bad and mediocre music and vocals, and not everything he did is great and perfect, take it back!

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

@claudiadoina: Unfortunately it was Michael Jackson himself who said that he wrote some bad music.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

It's a lot more plausible for these songs to be from pre-existing lyrics that had been slightly edited. Than it would be for these songs to be completely new, started from scratch and completed within 48 hours.


Not many artist has the time or drive to write an albums worth of material in two days. And from the way you refer to the Cascio's and their talents, they wouldn't be a part of the exceptional one's that would.

Give me multiple millions of dollars and the guarantee of songwriting royalties for the rest of mine and my families lives and I'll write 12 songs in 2 days. All of them with better English than the obvious piss-takes that the Cascio songs are. 'Eat your soul like a vegetable...'

Disgusting.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

I like "Killing up the life in the birds and the trees".

Of course you do.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Yeah, that lyric is so disgusting. The media never destroys people like they're worthless scum. Never. That line has no truth to it whatsoever and is absolutely disgusting.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Hypothetically, they didn't receive any money until months after the initial registration of copyrights. So writing 12 songs in 2 days, merely hours after the passing of one of your friends, just for them to sit around for six months would still be somewhat unlikely.

 

[Minimj]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

To be honest, Michael's vocals couldn't have been any way near the quality via a tape recorder, because if they were and had to be processed that much, then Eddie's studio must be that rubbish, he might as well not have a studio.

The funny thing is, that Eddie was doing this all behind Michael's back while he was alive if they copyrighted the songs the day after Michael's death. Kind of fishy, because I am sure he would have had copies of the songs. And I will refer back to 'I never heard' situation.

But, Eddie could have hired Jason Malachi, to record the songs, (Jason did say on a few boards in 2007, he was working for Michael) to get Michael to hear what they could sound like, (Example of this, is R Kelly and You Are Not Alone) and Michael might have said, 'Yeah let's record them sometime' and didn't in the end as he was there just for fun.

Obviously, Michael never recorded them, and Eddie was pissed off, due to the work he put into them as in writing, and was like, I have a sound alike, let's use these and make them sound like Michael and sell them, as he has died. Don't forget he didn't sell the song's to Sony until months after, so he could have easily done work to them.

Obviously Jason may not know it is his voice as they are processed them to the max. (Teddy Riley and the Melodyne - Is that how you spell it?) So really Jason may actually not know, hence why he said 'I am not singing on these songs.'

This is just a theory, in my opinion of what could have happened.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Hypothetically, they didn't receive any money until months after the initial registration of copyrights. So writing 12 songs in 2 days, merely hours after the passing of one of your friends, just for them to sit around for six months would still be somewhat unlikely.

If they weren't already in business with Frank Dileo.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Eddie hears that Michael Jackson has passed away. A burst of laughter erupts. He grabs his chest, wipes his tears of happiness away.

"We are going to be set for life now. This is the best news I've ever heard."

Eddie runs downstairs to his father. "Father, father! Michael's died!"

The Cascio residence starts partying until 3am.

(Hypothetical situation, of course, if the Cascio tracks are fake this could have likely been the situation?)

 

[Dorian]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Eddie hears that Michael Jackson has passed away. A burst of laughter erupts. He grabs his chest, wipes his tears of happiness away.

"We are going to be set for life now. This is the best news I've ever heard."

Eddie runs downstairs to his father. "Father, father! Michael's died!"

The Cascio residence starts partying until 3am.

They were fast with the idea of faking the songs,no joke :lmao: