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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

samhabib said:
They were probably using that yellow underwater Walkman too. Care of SONY.
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I don't get what's up with Sony here.They fcked up the promotion,yep,but the album tracklist was made by The Estate.
 
Dorian said:
I don't get what's up with Sony here.They fcked up the promotion,yep,but the album tracklist was made by The Estate.
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The Estate? John Mclain didn't want the Cascio songs on the album. So which part of the 'Estate' argued for them to be on there?

Sony have fucked up everything from about June 25 2009 onwards. The lies surrounding This Is It, the debacle that is the Visions boxset and then the complete abomination of the Cascio songs.

Go team!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Dorian said:
I don't get what's up with Sony here.They fcked up the promotion,yep,but the album tracklist was made by The Estate.
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I don't understand. Estate = Michael Jackson. When estate is doing sth wrong to MJ music, they doing wrong to themselves. So why they chose cascio songs if these songs are fake?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

samhabib said:
The Estate? John Mclain didn't want the Cascio songs on the album. So which part of the 'Estate' argued for them to be on there?

Sony have fucked up everything from about June 25 2009 onwards. The lies surrounding This Is It, the debacle that is the Visions boxset and then the complete abomination of the Cascio songs.

Go team!
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John Mclain is not the only part of the Estate.

Sony promoted This Is It amazingly no doubt about it.They could've used more footage but I guess that's how the market goes,right?
Vision might seem a complete mess,but it was mostly made for the new fans that can get a package of all it's videos at once.

As for the Cascios...Sony was the one responsible with the distribution and promotion,not with the tracklisting and all that :).
 
Dorian said:
John Mclain is not the only part of the Estate.

Sony promoted This Is It amazingly no doubt about it.They could've used more footage but I guess that's how the market goes,right?
Vision might seem a complete mess,but it was mostly made for the new fans that can get a package of all it's videos at once.

As for the Cascios...Sony was the one responsible with the distribution and promotion,not with the tracklisting and all that :).
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Right, so if John Mclain didn't want the songs on there, and the Jackson family didn't want the songs on there... WHO IN THE 'ESTATE' DID???

This Is It was probably even worse than this scandal, to be honest. The lies about his health during it's promotion, deliberately editing videos together to disguise his failing health during rehearsals, all the while creaming money out of his lifeless body. Disgusting.

Visions is simply criminal. I fear for any new fans having to see that pathetic compilation as an introduction to the genius of Michael Jackson. "Mommy... why has Thriller got a black box all the way around it??"

So who had the right to choose the Cascio songs and deny Mclain and the Jacksons the power of veto???
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

mjmax said:
After a quick check, the "Ha" from monster and TIDFY are definitely not the same..

http://soundcloud.com/mathmax/tidfy-monster

In fact, it would have surprised me if they had sampled this song...
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With some tweaking you might be able to obtain the same sound.The one in monster is faster.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Dorian said:
With some tweaking you might be able to obtain the same sound.The one in monster is faster.
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no.. the "ha" from Monster is more stressed and blown.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Dorian said:
Still,if Porte already recored them how could have Michael wrote them?Also it seems fishy to register the songs 2 days after his death.They couldn't have finished 12 songs in 2 days I suppose...
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samhabib said:
Exactly. How did Friedman hear those songs pre-Michael in 2006 if Michael co-wrote them a year later? It's all bullshit.
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Michael had Eddie working at Sony/ ATV in the 2003 and James Porte had signed up with Frank Dileo in 2006. Did you even consider that Michael could have been working with Eddie and James before 2007 on those songs for James's album and then decided to use them for his benefit?

Or they could be songs written by Eddie - James that Michael simply edited parts and used.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

ivy said:
Michael had Eddie working at Sony/ ATV in the 2003 and James Porte had signed up with Frank Dileo in 2006. Did you even consider that Michael could have been working with Eddie and James before 2007 on those songs for James's album and then decided to use them for his benefit?
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No. I didn't bother considering it. Because it takes a desperate effort at clutching at straws to get to that conclusion. Based on a million hypothetical events that no one involved has mentioned.

ivy said:
Or they could be songs written by Eddie - James that Michael simply edited parts and used.
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Again, another completely hypothetical situation that no one involved has even claimed.

Why do you think they haven't claimed any of this? For what reason?

They could be this. They could be that. They could be anything. If you want to clutch at straws.

They're not Michael Jackson songs. By any stretch of the definition.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

You are funny samhabib, really. You don't believe anything they tell you and at the same time you reject stuff saying that "no one has mentioned that". So don't act like if you would have believed it if they told it.

And the above is public knowledge.

Eddie Cascio was on the writer team for Sony/ATV by the help of a friend in the industry (3 guesses in finding who that friend might be), he left Sony/ATV to be on his own at 2004. Frank Dileo and Michael was reunited during the 2005 trial. in 2006 Bobby Ewing (James Porte stage name) had released a demo that did quite well in USA called "Exotic Dancer". He was being managed by Dileo. His future album was being produced by Frank Cascio.

another completely hypothetical situation
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fyi - this is the conspiracy section and heavy speculation is allowed. This is a debate thread everyone writes their opinion. I haven't seen you come up with factual proof either, you only say "because I say so and I can't be wrong". So stop attacking people's hypothetical scenarios please.

and you don't debunk anything with a similarly reasonable explanation, you just flat out reject anything that doesn't fit your way of thinking. That's not "debating".
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

These songs were not written for Michael. They were written for James Porte. The pre exisiting work was presented to Michael when he stayed in NJ in 2007. His lyrical input was minimal but still enough to earn him a writing credit. In much the same way as Michael simply changed the title of "You Are My World" to "You Are My Life" and got a co-writing credit in the process.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

ivy said:
Michael had Eddie working at Sony/ ATV in the 2003 and James Porte had signed up with Frank Dileo in 2006. Did you even consider that Michael could have been working with Eddie and James before 2007 on those songs for James's album and then decided to use them for his benefit?

Or they could be songs written by Eddie - James that Michael simply edited parts and used.
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But, the Cascio tracks are really not that exceptional. I know muscial taste is subjective. Still, there is some degree of objectivity we can observe. For example, even Michael's worst detrators have to agree Billie Jean is probably one of the best songs ever written.

I just don't see why Michael would give his talents on those tracks. We are not talking about a cameo performance like the one on Whatzupwitu or an outtake like If You Don't Love Me. He didn't complete Another Day. He didn't complete Hollywood Tonight. He didn't complete Much Too soon. But, he worked on the Cascio tracks, with harmonies and everything. Out of 12 Cascio tracks, we have heard five of them. None of those is worthy enough.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

love is magical said:
But, the Cascio tracks are really not that exceptional. I know muscial taste is subjective. Still, there is some degree of objectivity we can observe. For example, even Michael's worst detrators have to agree Billie Jean is probably one of the best songs ever written.

I just don't see why Michael would give his talents on those tracks. We are not talking about a cameo performance like the one on Whatzupwitu or an outtake like If You Don't Love Me. He didn't complete Another Day. He didn't complete Hollywood Tonight. He didn't complete Much Too soon. But, he worked on the Cascio tracks, with harmonies and everything. Out of 12 Cascio tracks, we have heard five of them. None of those is worthy enough.
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Like I said in the second part they could also be the songs that Eddie and James wrote and that Michael edited. It's also a possibility. Read biohazard4's post above yours? Even changing one word is enough to get a songwriting credit.

and that scenario (Eddie and James wrote the majority and Michael minimally edited some parts) answers the questions about quality of the lyrics (not exceptional etc) .

and to "giving is talents" part , remember we discussed "demo/guide vocals" and said that the basic definition was "not intended to release" so simply they weren't intended to release. and if he had the time to finish and release them they would have been different. I think the comparisons are kinda flawed because you are comparing a finished product to a work in progress one.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

ivy said:
Like I said in the second part they could also be the songs that Eddie and James wrote and that Michael edited. It's also a possibility. Read biohazard4's post above yours? Even changing one word is enough to get a songwriting credit.

and that scenario (Eddie and James wrote the majority and Michael minimally edited some parts) answers the questions about quality of the lyrics (not exceptional etc) .
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And Michael may have chosen to be involved with those tracks for other reasons than simply putting them on an album. He clearly was a kind of mentor figure for Eddie, plus would have wanted to repay them for three months of hospitality so may have felt obliged to join in with recording stuff. If Michael had lived, would he have used any of those songs on his next proper album? Probably not.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

ivy said:
Like I said in the second part they could also be the songs that Eddie and James wrote and that Michael edited. It's also a possibility. Read biohazard4's post above yours? Even changing one word is enough to get a songwriting credit.

and that scenario (Eddie and James wrote the majority and Michael minimally edited some parts) answers the questions about quality of the lyrics (not exceptional etc) .
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I understand how Michael could have gotten a writing credit by giving minimal output. I didn't ask why he has a co-writing credit. I asked why he would lend his talents on those songs. Of course, none of us would have an answer. We don't know what his mind works. All of us know how selective Michael Jackson was. How many times I asked the question why Michael did not complete WHE and Fall Again.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

biohazard4 said:
And Michael may have chosen to be involved with those tracks for other reasons than simply putting them on an album. He clearly was a kind of mentor figure for Eddie, plus would have wanted to repay them for three months of hospitality so may have felt obliged to join in with recording stuff. If Michael had lived, would he have used any of those songs on his next proper album? Probably not.
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Exactly

would Michael used these songs on his next album if he lived? We don't know. Birchey said "water" was similar, Dileo said he planned on working on them in UK. So they could have found their way to the album. or Michael could have worked on them for 10 years and never get satisfied with them enough to put on an album.

If Michael used those songs on this next album if he lived would they be the way that we hear them now? absolutely not . these are demos/ guide vocals, ideas, a work in progress. He would have worked on them further, make changes and make them more perfect.

and now I'm going to get the argument of "if that's the case then these songs should have never been released" and I'll reply with "do you know that the reality of a posthumous release is that finishing an unfinished song someway". and we'll complete the circle once again :)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

He was there for all that time. There was a recording studio there, which we know for a fact he did use (Thriller 25). The children were home schooled. It's logical that he would have used some of his time to work in the studio with Eddie. The question is exactly what, and how much made it to the 12 recordings?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

ivy said:
You are funny samhabib, really. You don't believe anything they tell you and at the same time you reject stuff saying that "no one has mentioned that". So don't act like if you would have believed it if they told it.

And the above is public knowledge.

Eddie Cascio was on the writer team for Sony/ATV by the help of a friend in the industry (3 guesses in finding who that friend might be), he left Sony/ATV to be on his own at 2004. Frank Dileo and Michael was reunited during the 2005 trial. in 2006 Bobby Ewing (James Porte stage name) had released a demo that did quite well in USA called "Exotic Dancer". He was being managed by Dileo. His future album was being produced by Frank Cascio.



fyi - this is the conspiracy section and heavy speculation is allowed. This is a debate thread everyone writes their opinion. I haven't seen you come up with factual proof either, you only say "because I say so and I can't be wrong". So stop attacking people's hypothetical scenarios please.

and you don't debunk anything with a similarly reasonable explanation, you just flat out reject anything that doesn't fit your way of thinking. That's not "debating".
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I'll tell you the more likely scenario - as opposed to your wishful thinking.

The Cascios rejoiced when Michael Jackson died. Registered bogus songs in his name. And got some two-bit bullshit imposter to sing them. Had Roger Friedman help publicise the 'quality' of the tracks - they'd been leaking information to him for years. And had Uncle Tookie flex some muscle in order to gain millions by having their name financially associated with Michael's. Without Michael's consent.

That's the more likely scenario. Especially when you listen to the joker on the records.

You make me laugh. You hate my comments and my conviction so much that you're desperate to ban me at any given moment. That's debating? No. That's censorship. So please, save the lecture on how I should or shouldn't debate.

Gotta love the Cascios. Used their connections with Michael to start songwriting for his publishing company. Then traded in their friendship with him as soon as he died. Great friends there.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

samhabib said:
I'll tell you the more likely scenario - as opposed to your wishful thinking.

The Cascios rejoiced when Michael Jackson died. Registered bogus songs in his name. And got some two-bit bullshit imposter to sing them. Had Roger Friedman help publicise the 'quality' of the tracks - they'd been leaking information to him for years. And had Uncle Tookie flex some muscle in order to gain millions by having their name financially associated with Michael's. Without Michael's consent.

That's the more likely scenario. Especially when you listen to the joker on the records.

You make me laugh. You hate my comments and my conviction so much that you're desperate to ban me at any given moment. That's debating? No. That's censorship. So please, save the lecture on how I should or shouldn't debate.

Gotta love the Cascios. Used their connections with Michael to start songwriting for his publishing company. Then traded in their friendship with him as soon as he died. Great friends there.
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Are you saying they wrote 12 songs and registered them with the US Copyright Office in less than 48 hours?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

biohazard4 said:
Are you saying they wrote 12 songs and registered them with the US Copyright Office in less than 48 hours?
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Have you heard the lyrics? You think it took over 3 years to get those bullshit lyrics to that stage? That 3 brains couldn't work out that 'killing up the life in the birds and the trees' was a complete abuse of the English language? You think 3 brains couldn't iron that crap out over 3 years???
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

ivy said:
Exactly

would Michael used these songs on his next album if he lived? We don't know. Birchey said "water" was similar, Dileo said he planned on working on them in UK. So they could have found their way to the album. or Michael could have worked on them for 10 years and never get satisfied with them enough to put on an album.

If Michael used those songs on this next album if he lived would they be the way that we hear them now? absolutely not . these are demos/ guide vocals, ideas, a work in progress. He would have worked on them further, make changes and make them more perfect.

and now I'm going to get the argument of "if that's the case then these songs should have never been released" and I'll reply with "do you know that the reality of a posthumous release is that finishing an unfinished song someway". and we'll complete the circle once again :)
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I'm not an expert on posthumous release. Actually, I don't own any. I just base my opinon from a fan's perspective. No business consideration. No financial consideration.

Finishing an unfinished song someway. What someway means? How far is too far? How much is too much?

To me, Hollywood Tonight is an unfinished song finished in someway. It's acceptable. Same as BoJ, Another Day and MTS.

But, if you are telling me there is an unfinished song that is only 2% done and the producers complete the remaining 98% and such song find its way to be an official Michael Jackson song. Then, I'm truly saddened and angered.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Do you think these unreleased tracks from cascio session will leaked soon? I know some fans have them, so maybe it is possible?

I still think it is MJ singing so it is important to me to hear them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

love is magical said:
I'm not an expert on posthumous release .
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You don't have to be. It's a complete lie for anyone to claim that you need to be. These songs are not Michael Jackson songs. Listening to postumous Biggie Smalls records ain't gonna change that fact!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

pushukrystian said:
Do you think these unreleased tracks from cascio session will leaked soon? I know some fans have them, so maybe it is possible?

I still think it is MJ singing so it is important to me to hear them.
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Sooner rather than later, all tracks will be leaked. It follows the same trend as Blue Gangster and STTR. A snippet leaked first, then the whole song leaked.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

samhabib said:
You make me laugh. You hate my comments and my conviction so much that you're desperate to ban me at any given moment. That's debating? No. That's censorship. So please, save the lecture on how I should or shouldn't debate.
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I didn't ban you to start with. Staff decision. and you weren't even banned. And ask yourself this question did you take the warnings given to you seriously and made any changes the way you post or not? think about it.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

Changing the songs 'in some way'....As love is magical said, how much is too much? Even if these songs are sung by Michael, it's absolutely disgusting what they've done to the songs to make them 'releasable'.....HT is a posthumous release, BTM, MTS, BOJ.....These Cascio songs are a mess and are a complete, complete insult to Michael's artistic integrity.....I find it mind-boggling that anyone can accept these tracks in the state they're in, whether they're Michael or not..
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

samhabib said:
Have you heard the lyrics? You think it took over 3 years to get those bullshit lyrics to that stage? That 3 brains couldn't work out that 'killing up the life in the birds and the trees' was a complete abuse of the English language? You think 3 brains couldn't iron that crap out over 3 years???
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Where do you get three years from? Anyway, like I said they were not written for Michael. Besides, the lyrical content is irrelevant. The issue is about vocals. I find it highly unlikely that in a state of mourning, Eddie Cascio wrote twelve songs with a specific plan to commit fraud for an as yet unconfirmed album as part of then non-existent deal in less than 48 hours.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

ivy said:
I didn't ban you to start with. Staff decision. and you weren't even banned. And ask yourself this question did you take the warnings given to you seriously and made any changes the way you post or not? think about it.
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Actually I did. But then I logged back on and saw WorldWide posting on here in a much more inflammatory manner than I ever have, with a signature questioning the mental health of a member of the board and wondered... 'hmmm... why am I singled out for special treatment?'

Last night, AnnieRUOkay completely misquoted me and questioned my honesty. Questioned my honesty in a complete misquote.

I'm happy to make an effort in being more tolerant. But there's a complete lack of consistency, which needs to be addressed.

How is it that WorldWide can post, freely, about claiming someone on this board is a 'nutter' in every post of his (in his signature) yet everytime I have an opinion I don't know how to debate?

Either way, I've been nothing but respectful. AnnieRUOKay called me a liar, by implication, and Aniram called me immature. I didn't see a rush to admonish them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Conspiracy)

biohazard4 said:
Where do you get three years from? Anyway, like I said they were not written for Michael. Besides, the lyrical content is irrelevant. The issue is about vocals. I find it highly unlikely that in a state of mourning, Eddie Cascio wrote twelve songs with a specific plan to commit fraud for an as yet unconfirmed album as part of then non-existent deal in less than 48 hours.
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Friedman heard the songs in 2006. They were registered in 2009. By my calculation that's AT LEAST 3 years. In those 3 years they couldn't write better lyrics than that?

The lyrical content is COMPLETELY relevant. Because Michael Jackson never recorded bullshit lyrics. COMPLETELY relevant. (Let's see all the fans claim that Michael did record bullshit lyrics...)
 
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