Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hey, biohazard4!

You're wrong!

Bye, biohazard4!

 

[mjmax]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'm not really sure about this anymore. The voice is the same as the released ones. Why would it solve anything? Believers will just continue to say it's their Michael singing, and the "doubters" say it's not.

Exact! We have 5 full songs to judge if it's Michael or not... it's more than enough for anybody to form his own opinion...

5 songs represent more than 20 minutes and not a single lead vocal sounds like MJ! Reduce these 20 minutes to a few seconds and we'll come to the exact same conclusion...

And the MJ fans shouldn't be envious of the people who have heard the 7 remaining songs... this is not MJ's material... it's worth nothing, except for Malachi's fans..

 

[StellaJackson]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hey, biohazard4!

You're wrong!

Bye, biohazard4!

Care to elaborate?

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Burn 2 night is registered on the BMI catalog.

 

[Deniro UK]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Is there anyone who doesn't believe its Jason who has these tracks at this moment in time? Seems to be only the people supporting that idea who have it at the moment unless I'm missing something

 

[MJRemixed]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'm starting to doubt that people actually do have all 12 tracks etc. Something would have leaked by now. Also, questions about lyrical content etc have gone unanswered. On top of that, with the exception of the three songs on the album, the remaining material has not been copyrighted. There is no legal reason why this stuff, it it helps to give a better understanding, should not be made available to all fans. But like I said, I'm beginning to question its existence.

What a very sublte way of calling someones bluff :flowers:

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Who do we bring the case against?

Sony and MJ Estate with Does 1-100 (you could add people as you go along based on whether they knew and participated in fraud).

For goodness sake, can people stop saying "why don't you take it to court?"!!!!!!!!!!!

We have discussed this a gazillion times. It's nearly impossible for fans, who have no solid evidence, to obtain enough basis to move the case.

^^ well said love....and very true....How to proceed? Money? Time? EVIDENCE that will hold up since they've seemed to cover their arses fairly well...

Actually the initial stage would be not to go to court but get an expert opinion in other words "evidence" to allow you go the court.

By that I mean 3rd party objective forensic vocals analysis.

And as far as I know Max-Jax tried that, they contacted an expert who said he could look into it for a fee but didn't expect to find any opposite findings then the Sony/Estate experts.

Also if I'm not mistaken somebody on MJJC also posted information about contacting an expert.

It's doable especially if the evidence is there - in other words like claimed it's so obvious that the vocals aren't Michaels and we are experiencing a fraud , cover up etc.

At the very least, fans can sue for consumer fraud. Really? I thought the disclamier put by Sony at the back of the album pretty much shut up such option.

which disclaimer?

if you say someone is singing the songs and that's not Michael and not credited on the album that's fraud. Such as if you claim Jason or any impersonator is on the vocals and as his name isn't written and presented as Michael, it's fraud.

I'm starting to doubt that people actually do have all 12 tracks etc. Something would have leaked by now. Also, questions about lyrical content etc have gone unanswered. On top of that, with the exception of the three songs on the album, the remaining material has not been copyrighted. There is no legal reason why this stuff, it it helps to give a better understanding, should not be made available to all fans. But like I said, I'm beginning to question its existence.

unreleased songs do not need separate registration. "MJ song book" could include any number of songs.

ps: Burn 2 nite's registration with BMI could show that it's planned for release.

 

[StellaJackson]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Sony and MJ Estate with Does 1-100 (you could add people as you go along based on whether they knew and participated in fraud).





Actually the initial stage would be not to go to court but get an expert opinion in other words "evidence" to allow you go the court.

By that I mean 3rd party objective forensic vocals analysis.

And as far as I know Max-Jax tried that, they contacted an expert who said he could look into it for a fee but didn't expect to find any opposite findings then the Sony/Estate experts.

Also if I'm not mistaken somebody on MJJC also posted information about contacting an expert.

It's doable especially if the evidence is there - in other words like claimed it's so obvious that the vocals aren't Michaels and we are experiencing a fraud , cover up etc.



which disclaimer?

if you say someone is singing the songs and that's not Michael and not credited on the album that's fraud. Such as if you claim Jason or any impersonator is on the vocals and as his name isn't written and presented as Michael, it's fraud.




unreleased songs do not need separate registration. "MJ song book" could include any number of songs.

ps: Burn 2 nite's registration with BMI could show that it's planned for release.

"Mj Song Book" was registered on June 27th 2009. The Pro Tools material that I'm talking about was created, or at least saved, in August 2010. That Mj Song Book may just be the written compositions, but that all depends on what Michael did or didn't do with the Cascios. I forgot about Burn 2 Nite. It may have been considered for "Michael" though as Teddy claimed to have heard it, so he was possibly given it to work on. I beleive he is the one who said it had a salsa flavour.

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Guys, you don't have solid evidance but You're 100 % sure that this is not MJ but Jason voice in cascio's trakcs? i just can't understand this...sorry

You're all the time talking about money. I think the most important thing in court is truth.

It is not about You don't have money to fight with sony, it is just lack of evidance...You guys base on your own amateur opinion - and You are totally right - You can't win in court with it.

I don't need more evidences than the comparison audios that we already have and that Jab me music (Porte) can't stop deleting from 'You tube' or any link uploaded. And they erase them because they don't want other fans know the truth.

I can recognize the Elton.J voice vs Freddy.M voice.

I can recognize the G.Michael voice vs B.Springteen voice.

And i also can recognize MJ voice vs Jason Malachi on those audio comparisons because is the same voice, same tone, same way of singing songs, etc...

You and others are the ones who can't recognize the Jason voice on those Cascios songs and those comparisons.

Others supports Sony (Money's friends, work for Sony) or are Cupeta's/Cascio's friends who try to hide the truth..

 

[MJRemixed]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ that gave the cascios almost a year to get Jason Malachi and friends in, to learn, rehearse and record their 12-track album :lol:

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

"Mj Song Book" was registered on June 27th 2009. The Pro Tools material that I'm talking about was created, or at least saved, in August 2010. That Mj Song Book may just be the written compositions, but that all depends on what Michael did or didn't do with the Cascios. I forgot about Burn 2 Nite. It may have been considered for "Michael" though as Teddy claimed to have heard it, so he was possibly given it to work on. I beleive he is the one who said it had a salsa flavour.

Teddy said that Burn 2 night will be incluided in the next album.

Cascios and Porte only registered LYRICS two days after MJ death.

You can see the registration document and what Roger Friedman said. They also hired a lawyer to avoid problems.

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Teddy said that Burn 2 night will be incluided in the next album.

I doubt Teddy OR Burn 2 Night will be anywhere near the next album :clapping:

 

[mjmax]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Teddy also said that the other Cascio tracks will be on the comings albums...

But since when do we listen this guy??

 

[ivy]

Cascios and Porte only registered LYRICS two days after MJ death.

You can see the registration document and what Roger Friedman said. They also hired a lawyer to avoid problems.

we discussed this before. Roger Friedman is wrong about that. Registration wasn't for lyrics only.

The registration has "sound recording" classification which means audio. and Michael is credited for sound recording and performance. Only lyrics wouldn't have sound or performance.

furthermore see explanation from the copyright form

“sound recordings” are works that result from the fixation of a series of musical, spoken, or other sounds.

Sound recording authorship is the performance, sound production, or both, that is fixed in the recording deposited for registration. Describe this authorship in space 2 as “sound recording.” If the claim also covers the underlying work(s), include the appropriate authorship terms for each author, for example, “words,” “music,” “arrangement of music,” or “text.”

http://www.copyright.gov/forms/formsr.pdf

As you can see "sound recording" registration includes a series of series of musical, spoken, or other sounds and submission of a copy of that audio file. Additional work authorship can also be added to the registration similar to what they did "sound recording, performance, production, compilation, lyrics"

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ah yes! What i wouldn't give to listen to that 'sound recording' that the Cascios submitted on the 27th of June 2009! God only knows what was on that! Whatever it is i'll bet it bears little resemblance to the tracks on the 'Michael' album. There is something seriously wrong with a copyright system that allows people to register sound recordings and attribute the authorship to a deceased person without having to provide any proof whatsoever that the material is authentic.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So I decided to put 'Monster' on in my car to hear the bass. And, yes, it's great bass and I was groovin' to it, having my own little party, and then the voice kicked in, and I was like, 'Who the hell invited you?' :mello: and then I wanted to cry

:lol:

 

[mjjesamor]

I had the misfortune of listening to the monster 'early' version a while ago... I had to switch it off half way through though. when i hear the main vocalist on the Cascio tracks my stomach turns. It really does.


"7 U.S.C. §506(e): Any person who knowingly makes a false representation of a material fact in the application for copyright registration provided for by section 409, or in any written statement filed in connection
with the application, shall be fined not more than $2,500"
2,500 is peanuts really compared to what the Cascios were payed for the tracks that they took more than a year to 'finish' after registering with the copyright office and then announcing their existence to the world via Roger Friedman)
Nothing fishy there folks!

 

[ivy]

There is something seriously wrong with a copyright system that allows people to register sound recordings and attribute the authorship to a deceased person without having to provide any proof whatsoever that the material is authentic.

1. Hollywood Tonight is registered the same way. (and 19 other songs by Brad Buxter)

2. copyright registration is for protection against if someone steals your work. It's not about authenticity.

3. Attributing authorship to a person means
a. you are going to share benefits with that person
b. you can't release anything without approval of that person

"7 U.S.C. §506(e): Any person who knowingly makes a false representation of a material fact in the application for copyright registration provided for by section 409, or in any written statement filed in connection
with the application, shall be fined not more than $2,500"
2,500 is peanuts really compared to what the Cascios were payed for the tracks that they took more than a year to 'finish' after registering with the copyright office and then announcing their existence to the world via Roger Friedman)
Nothing fishy there folks!

It wouldn't end there. If that "false representation" was proven, it would have given the public the evidence to sue them for consumer fraud.

Like I said above, copyright isn't for authenticity so they wouldn't be fining for that. But that would have given you the grounds to sue.

When Milli Vanilli's fake vocals info became public (and kinda proven by a public statement by one of the actual vocals) it allowed people to sue Milli Vanilli for consumer fraud on the albums as well as additional items such as return of the money that people gave for their concerts.

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

we discussed this before. Roger Friedman is wrong about that. Registration wasn't for lyrics only.

You can tell me whatever you want.

On the registration it shows LIRYCS with BIG letters.

I dont know if they also registered production for those LIRYCS, maybe some sounds with Porte in lead vocals.

By the way, to make those fakes they used JASON after they registered those lirycs.

There is another registered document after they recorded with JM.

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ivy said ...
(1. Hollywood Tonight is registered the same way. (and 19 other songs by Brad Buxter))
I don't see what your point is. Yes anyone can come along and register music and credit it to someone else that is deceased. In the case of Hollywood Tonight that is all fine and dandy. All is not fine and dandy in the case of the Cascio tracks. Nobody doubts the authenticity of those tracks. brad buxter is a professional that MJ had worked with previously. Cascio is an amateur and this album was recorded in 'secret' and only revealed more than a year after Michael died.

(2. copyright registration is for protection against if someone steals your work. It's not about authenticity)
Well i think it is safe to assume that nobody is going to steal the Cascio tracks and i don't think that was their motivation when they registered the tracks. Are you honestly trying to say that two days after MJ died Eddie thought to himself. 'I better register those tracks that nobody knows exist quick before they get stolen' Please. how can people be so naive? They did so to legitimise and give credibility to whatever they had or were planning to have a year or so down the line....... You are right when you say that copyright is not about authenticity but maybe that needs to change? Maybe until now there has never been an issue like this because as far as i know this is the first time a fraud of this nature may have been committed. Maybe when the truth comes out things will have to change at the copyright office.

(3. Attributing authorship to a person means
a. you are going to share benefits with that person
b. you can't release anything without approval of that person)
Well considering that Michael was dead when they registered those tracks it is safe to say that Michael was unable to give his approval)

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You can tell me whatever you want.

On the registration it shows LIRYCS with BIG letters.

I dont know if they also registered production for those LIRYCS, maybe some sounds with Porte in lead vocals.

type of work is determined according to the form and the copy of the item that you give to the copyright office. It wouldn't be "Sound recording and music" if they didn't fill out the SR Form and gave a copy of the audio file. It's as simple as that.

Then check the document

http://www.copyright.gov/forms/formsr.pdf

Type of authorship is written (on the paper form) and entered on the online registration. So they entered all those "sound recording, performance, production, compilation,lyrics"

and search for any other registration by anyone, you know that no one has all the above items listed and capitalizing doesn't mean that's the only registration.

For example Brad Buxter registration for "Hollywood Tonight" lists Authorship: music, lyrics. so according to your logic they didn't copyrighted anything because nothing is capitalized.

and I'm not telling you what I want. I'm telling you copyright instructions. Are you going to disagree with written explanations by US government because it doesn't fit to your way of thinking? Really?

(1. Hollywood Tonight is registered the same way. (and 19 other songs by Brad Buxter))
I don't see what your point is. Yes anyone can come along and register music and credit it to someone else that is deceased.

Point: after death registration doesn't equal to shady.

(2. copyright registration is for protection against if someone steals your work. It's not about authenticity)
Well i think it is safe to assume that nobody is going to steal the Cascio tracks and i don't think that was their motivation when they registered the tracks. Are you honestly trying to say that two days after MJ died Eddie thought to himself. 'I better register those tracks that nobody knows exist quick before they get stolen'

Those are Michael Jackson songs and according to some people it sold for millions of dollars. So apparently they were worth stealing. Don't you claim that Cascio's sold those songs for financial gain? Why wouldn't anyone steal them and sell for their own financial gain?

Plus if someone registered them solely on Michael's name Cascio's wouldn't be able to get royalties etc.

So yeah after Michael's death not knowing who would run the estate how, it makes sense to register them to protect their rights.

Think about this : Roger Friedman claimed that there was jealousy against Cascio's because of their close relationship with Michael. Michael was dead and his mother went to court saying that Michael died without a will and wanted to be the executor. If there is really a tension between the Cascio's and Jackson's it would make all the sense in the world to try to establish and protect their rights as quickly as possible.

(3. Attributing authorship to a person means

Well considering that Michael was dead when they registered those tracks it is safe to say that Michael was unable to give his approval)

Michael Jackson Estate = Michael Jackson

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So your point is that they don't automatically mean they are shady if the person is deceased. Well i agree. But by the same token it doesn't mean they are automatically NOT shady either!

Ivy whatever they registered on the 27th of June was not worth millions at that point in time and certainly was not at any risk of being stolen at that point in time. Are you seriously asking why wouldn't anyone steal whatever they had at that point in time? Why? For starters Those tracks were completely nonexistent as far as anyone was aware until more than a year after they were registered when suddenly it was revealed that MJ recorded a whole album while with the Cascios. Again why the rush to register? The whole scenario is just not believable to me Ivy. It really isn't. It's just so implausible. Really.
I can't believe that you are saying MJ =the MJ Estate in this context. The Estate is not Michael. Michael is dead. And Michael was dead when the Cascios registered their material. And the Cascios needed neither Michael's nor the Estate's approval to register the material so do not see any relevance or point in saying that Michael Jackson Estate=Michael Jackson.

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The Estate was not in control the days after Mj died.

They had to wait till a judge gave them the totall rights to do whatever they wanted to do.

That's why family said there were no proof that MJ co-wrote those lyrics. No SIGN from MJ.

They did not have approval, No MJ, No Family, No Estate.

They only registered LYRICS putting MJ in the document.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

They only registered LYRICS putting MJ in the document.

Repeat that a billion times more and perhaps it will make it come true. (but don't hold your breath)

Ivy whatever they registered on the 27th of June was not worth millions at that point in time and certainly was not at any risk of being stolen at that point in time.

how do you know what they registered? and didn't they sell the "raw vocals" to Sony for millions? and I'm not seeing any updated registrations. That means not so significant change to the original material otherwise it wouldn't be protected.

For starters Those tracks were completely nonexistent as far as anyone was aware until more than a year after they were registered when suddenly it was revealed that MJ recorded a whole album while with the Cascios

Frank Dileo said that he talked with Michael during his stay with Cascio's and Michael told him that he was working on songs. Birchey told us that the "water" Michael sang sounds like Cascio's "water". So perhaps you and I didn't know about them but they weren't apparently completely nonexistent to some people.

And the Cascios needed neither Michael's nor the Estate's approval to register the material so do not see any relevance or point in saying that Michael Jackson Estate=Michael Jackson.

not for registration but for release.

The minute they put the Michael Jackson name on that registration 2 days after Michael's death, they gave the future executors of Michael Jackson Estate (which they didn't know who they would be at that time - see kapital's post) the power to say "We aren't going to release these songs in a million years".

you make it sound like putting a person's name after death brings you some sort of advantage and I'm saying similarly it's bringing power and control to the estate of the deceased on those materials.

for example if I go and register any material in my and Michael's name it doesn't mean that I'm going to sell it and make millions of dollars because I contributed authorship to Michael. On the contrary it makes the Estate co-copyright owner and gives them power to stop anything related to that material.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So I decided to put 'Monster' on in my car to hear the bass. And, yes, it's great bass and I was groovin' to it, having my own little party, and then the voice kicked in, and I was like, 'Who the hell invited you?' :mello: and then I wanted to cry

:lol:

I know exactly what you are talking about. The voice just sounds foreign, not the same great voice that carass my ears everyday and night.

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Frank supported this fraud because he is the Porter manager. He lied.

McClain is another to watch in this fraud. He is selling the Mj catalog to his friends at Sony.

And it's so fun how you talk about what Birchey said about Water, but you did not say that he thinks it's a fraud and that the singer is Jason Malachi on those tracks.

For some info you used R.Friedman but in other things you say he was wrong.

Did you heard the audio comparisons? Did you heard the snorts on the Cascio & Malachi songs?. It's not only the same voice, he has the same snorts and problems in his mouth with some words.

It's amazing how you, a girl that i think it's very clever, can't see a thing that it's clear for tons of fans. In the spanish forum the 80% thinks it's not MJ and many of them don't speak english.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

And it's so fun how you talk about what Birchey said abot Water, but you did not say that he thinks it's a fraud and that Jason Malachi is the singer on those tracks.

For some info you used R.Friedman but in other things you say he was wrong.

you do exactly the same.

Friedman said that registration was lyrics only - which you think is right and agree .
Friedman also said the vocals are Michaels - which you reject and say he's wrong.
Friedman also said that 3T was jealous of Cascio's - which you reject and say he's wrong.
Friedman also said Michael's kids was influenced - which you reject and say he's wrong.

so let's make an agreement. we have two choices :

option 1: you accept that Friedman was right about everything and that 3T is jealous and the vocals are Michaels and I'll accept that the registration was lyrics only. (short version: we both agree that Friedman was right about everything)

option 2: don't criticize people for choosing what to believe. ( long version : we can look to all the information available, evaluate them and choose the ones that we think are the most credible)

------------------

PS: I hear Michael. I heard the comparisons, they didn't change my mind. This is my personal opinion. 76 fans voted on a poll doesn't shape my mind , my opinion - I have a mind of my own.

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok, snorts comparison are nothing to you, isn't?.

How can you explain it?.

You can not explain so many strange things, tons of fans saying it is JM, audio comparisons, MJ family, Rodney Jerkins, etc...

You will not win in the Cascios side. We are here not for Cascios, we are here For MJ.

The truth will come, dont forget it.

And the Mj family: Paris, Prince and Blanket will not forget who supported the fraud against their own father.

Think on it. They are the future, not Sony or Cascios.

If you want to support, what i think it's the worst attack to the MJ music, ok, good for you.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

what now the strategy is "guilt trip"?

I answered what I think about all those questions (snorts, people saying this and that etc) before. If you don't remember what I said you can simply go back in the thread and read it.

Your above post is totally says "I'm right and you are wrong. Accept what I say and be ashamed". Sorry but that guilt trip won't work.

Even if those songs proven to be fake the guilt will be on the ones that faked it and lied about it. If I turn out to be fooled by their actions, I'll be a victim.

Think about it. Displacing on your anger on to fellow fans due to their opinions is so wrong on so many levels.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I don't even listen to the Cascio tracks anymore, really... I find I listen to Hold My Hand, Hollywood Tonight and Best Of Joy more than any of the other songs.. and then I listen to his past catalog, of course.

Sometimes, when a Cascio track comes on, it sounds so strange to me(or I've been so brainwashed) that I am stopped in my tracks and find myself totally focusing on the voice and who I'm hearing and why it sounds so different than typical Michael Jackson...

I'm very tired of worrying and stressing out about this issue. I have more going on in my life that I can't be focusing this energy, mostly negative, on these tracks... It's upsetting and I wish we could just get it resolved. We do not deserve this sort of nonsense going on.