Michael - The Great Album Debate

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The burden of proof lies within the doubters. Believer's have proof, but it's of the obvious kind and the type you aren't looking for.


Proof #1, can be considered as the copyright registrations, the fact that Studio recordings, and sounds is included in the description of the material, under Michael Jackson's name. Again, that's obvious and isn't "proof" to some of you, in a court of law though, it would hold more weight than "these snorts are identical".

Proof #2, would be the Estate signing off on these songs for commercial released, combined with them and Sony not backing away from their claims, but instead reinforcing them through a press release, and under their own words, had this analysis conducted which 100% supported their initial conclusion. Again, more obvious proof, that has been presented and quickly dismissed by doubters.

Proof #3, and the most important would be Malachi issuing statements through his manager, which basically state "it ain't me".

Proof #4, last but not least, is we know Michael stayed there, we know Michael recorded there, the contents of such sessions were never made public until now, so we're led to believe. Now if these aren't the songs that Michael and the Cascio's recorded together, than where are they? Why would they keep genuine MJ songs secret, for the sake of committing a universal fraud? Again this is all obvious proof, and not of the sorts that doubter's are requesting.


You want materialistic proofs, being photo's of the sessions with Michael recording, you want the findings of forensic audio test's to be made public, you want songs from Michael that sound similar to these. In a nutshell you want the man himself to appear and just say, "yep, that's me!"


And until that last bolded line happens, this debate will continue. Because if and when those forensic results are made public, I can guarantee at least half of the doubters side of the fanbase will say the results were edited in some way, shape, or form.

Points 1 and 2 are strong supporting evidence, points 3 and 4 are weak supporting evidence, but none of this is proof. I would find a video of Michael Jackson singing these songs, proof, and no i would not say rubbish like it's someone dressed up as him or whatever, it will need to be something to that level to convince me though. You have to remember the family and such said such things before this is it about doubles, but we all knew that was MJJ on that stage, because the level of evidence was so much stronger than in this case, here it's just on official word and what your told bascially, but that is not real proof. And the burden of proof is on both sides.

Love is magical has said most of what i was going to say.

 

[Korgnex]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Does the US copyright office verify authenticity?

Yes. You even answered this yourself:

I agree this holds more weight in court though.

There's only one reason why it holds more weight in a court. Such registrations require certain info to become rubber-stamped.

 

[Kapital77]

Sorry, there is no proof.

The truth will come, sooner or later.

It´s Jason Malachi.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yes. You even answered this yourself:



There's only one reason why it holds more weight in a court. Such registrations require certain info to become rubber-stamped.

Could you please share with us what procedures the US copyright office performed to verfiy authenticity?

I'm not challenging you. I want to know.

 

[Kapital77]

Korgnex, your signature will never as good as mine.

Please, don´t waste your time.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Points 1 and 2 are strong supporting evidence, points 3 and 4 are weak supporting evidence, but none of this is proof. I would find a video of Michael Jackson singing these songs, proof, and no i would not say rubbish like it's someone dressed up as him or whatever, it will need to be something to that level to convince me though. You have to remember the family and such said such things before this is it about doubles, but we all knew that was MJJ on that stage, because the level of evidence was so much stronger than in this case, here it's just on official word and what your told bascially, but that is not real proof. And the burden of proof is on both sides.

Love is magical has said most of what i was going to say.

Both of you misinterpreted the post. You have people here saying "Why do the doubters have to give proof, believers haven't given proof for such and such.." That's not true, like I said "proofs/evidence" have been given over and over again, but like I said, and as proven by Love Is Magical, the "proof" we've given isn't circumstantial enough for any of you.

#1. Who determines what's proof and what's not? The courts do, not one person. Now when you factor that into this part of the discussion, what would a "proof" be in court? The copyright's saying what's included and who's it by, under that person's name, an official document of the Estate recognizing these as Michael Jackson songs thus being suitable to be released commercially or a comparison video made by a fan? Again, those to things are "proof" alone, admissible "proof", but it isn't suitable enough as such to doubters. Which is what I was saying.


As far as Proof #3, that was directed to those who keep saying it's Malachi on the records, which most believe, other than Love Is Magical, and a few others, although she's the only doubter I've seen that made that statement. Now if you were going to argue in court that that's who's on these records, then his own statements from his manager would be more "proof" than fan comparisons and theories.


And for #4, Certain people within the circle claim Michael was excited about the work he did while with the Cascio's. We know Michael was excited about some the newer songs he was working on in his final years. And his own kids acknowledged that he did in fact make music there during the 3 months. With that said, I highly doubt what he was excited about, after 3 months were just new vocals on a remix and new keys on an older song.

Why are we led to believe that Michael recorded the Cascio tracks just because he stayed there? How do we know that Michael did record songs with the Cascios? How do we know there was indeed genuine MJ songs created with the Cascios?

Again, how is it an "obvious proof"?

It's the same exact logic used that lead your fellow doubters to hold Katherine's, Tarryl's, Rooney's, Jermaine's, and the children's authenticity claims as "proof". The children acknowledged that he recorded there in the same article that some of you like to bring up so much. Why should their claims of vocal authenticity be accepted, yet their following claim that says he recorded and made music there be raised into question?

 

[B__Marco]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But you do NOT understand what is the main point here :

1 )We do NOT need any proof to show ourselves that was NOT MJ singing the songs, because we KNOW that it was NOT MJ singing the songs, based on OUR HEARS, we do NOT need any more proofs than that.... !!!

2) YOU need the proofs, if u want to make us believe what u believe
( hence that MARS is blue.....we do NOT believe that and we do NOT need any proof....)

3) We try to dig for proofs for u guys, so that u can SEE with you eyes where the truth is....U are completely WRONG believing that is MJ singing....since your hears do NOT work, we try to uncover the hidden truth....they are covering their lies....

4) You forget that all MJ Family said that on the new album the cascio songs are NOT sang by MJ...they said that at FIRST....than when they understood that that move would have given them problems (NO MONEY...and they need them, because they ARE ALL IN RED), they BACKED OFF....I think they need money to help to VINDICATE Michael death...so they know that it is NOT fare vs MJ fans to NOT talk anymore about the fake songs, but they HAVE TO DO IT for the BIG Picture...vindicate MJ.....

5) When I say : give me the proofs, is that because u want to convince me so bad, but YOU DO NOT HAVE NOTHING FOR ME....like I have nothing for YOU except my hears that WORK PERFECTLY and DO NOT need any help to tell me that the CASIO SONGS ARE FAKE !!!!!! Unfortunatelly I can NOT give u guys my ears...

If u do NOT understand the above, U ARE IN TROUBLE !!!

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Could you please share with us what procedures the US copyright office performed to verfiy authenticity?

I'm not challenging you. I want to know.

I don't think that an authenticity like you ask (is it Michael or not) exists during copyright process.

They do verify the request though. Any copyright registration has 3 parts : the form , the copy of the material and the fee. You submit or send them these 3 and it gets verified that all the steps needed is done and complete.

In regards to authenticity discussion the thing is that copyright office has the June 27 2009 submitted sound recording (Insert Kapital77 here saying "it's lyrics only RF said it" ten times).

Sure someone will respond "but that's not public" and yes it's is not public but there are two ways to get a copy : with an approval from the copyright owner and with a court order / subpoena.

If this issue ever goes to court (which most probably it wont) with a court order the copy submitted to the copyright office could be gotten and could be compared to the released songs.

Hypothetically speaking if they turn out to be the same "faking vocals after June 27,2009" will be completely not possible and if you continue to believe them to be fake you'll left with Cascio's faking them in 2 days and fooling everyone. If they turn out to be different you can actually compare to see what has been changed etc.

--------

I don't understand how a statment made by Malachi's manager serves as proof that Michael Jackson sang in the Cascio tracks. Say the manager was telling the truth that Malachi did not sing on the tracks. Does it mean there is no other vocals imposer who could sing in the tracks?

You are right it wouldn't serve as a proof that Michael sang in those songs but look to this thread - all the comparison videos are done based on Malachi, in the last pages I am asked "how can't I hear Malachi's snorts" and there are people stating they are 90 to 100% sure it's Malachi.

So let's say the manager was telling the truth that Malachi did not sing on the tracks, do you know what that means? Everyone on this thread claiming to hear Malachi is flawed in their hearing. For example if you claim it could be someone else then how could you hear Malachi's trademark snorts?

Unless you claim that all Michael Jackson impostors sound the same or that there's a Jason Malachi impostor out there that sound exactly like Jason trying to sound like Michael.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have heard some say that the music experts Sony hired could have been fooled because of how they mixed these tracks.

I don't understand how these music experts could have been fooled yet some random guy that knows how to make a youtube video can recognize it as "completely obvious" that it's not Michael Jackson singing on these tracks.

You think anyone who is an expert on music would be able to realize they're being fooled. "Hey, this is copied and pasted here. What's up with this? It sounds different here. Hm...This doesn't add up." Also, a music expert would probably be quite familiar with Michael Jackson's famous sound.

This could have been a gigantic controversy. Plus, if the Cascio's decided to sell Sony these tracks and Sony paid them 5 million and then found out they were fake, they would definitely sue for their money back and they would make it public and completely ruin the Cascio name and tell the world how they tried to fool them.

 

[LLCz]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Monster and Breaking News are great songs. I know they aren't Michael but I'm happy they are on the album.

 

[Grent]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Plus, if the Cascio's decided to sell Sony these tracks and Sony paid them 5 million and then found out they were fake, they would definitely sue for their money back and they would make it public and completely ruin the Cascio name and tell the world how they tried to fool them.

They would admit a disastrous mistake then.
Won't happen. It's better for them to leave things as they are.
But fans won't forget. Whatever self-proclaimed experts might say on here.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Great songs by Jason Malachi? I didn't know that was possible.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have wondered often if Michael ever used a cryptic recording technique, specifically making a recording altered or sounding different, just to prevent leaking.

Michael was very paranoid about his music leaking so he took extra special precautions... I wonder what kinds of things he'd do to watermark the music in case it ever got in the wrong hands. Like with the guide vocals it wouldn't be perfect or be intended for use on any future release.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Monster and Breaking News are great songs. I know they aren't Michael but I'm happy they are on the album.

What is this I don't even...

 

[Dorian]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115178

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Monster and Breaking News are great songs. I know they aren't Michael but I'm happy they are on the album.

you are being sarcastic. right? you can't possibly believe that it's ok to have songs not sung by michael jackson on a michael jackson album.

 

[Kapital77]

If this issue ever goes to court (which most probably it wont)

This issue will go to a court, be sure of that.

Paris, Blanket and Prince will say the truth whenever they want.

Sooner or later the truth will rise and Jason and others will pay for it.

Some people can fight to hide the truth, but the truth is so obvious. The net, you tube etc.. is full of coments saying Jason Malachi is the man who sung on those tracks.

It´s impossible to hide.

 

[Dorian]

This isse will go to a court, be sure of that.

Paris, Blanket and Prince will say the truth whenever they want.

Sooner or later the truth will rise and Jason and others will pay for it.

Some people can fight to hide the truth, but the truth is so obvious. The net, you tube etc.. is full of coments saying Jason Malachi is the man who sung on those tracks.

It´s impossible to hide.

Also some of the `net youtube etc` is full of comments saying that HT is fake.Does this mean that this is the truth?

 

[Kapital77]

That´s not true, and you know it.

There are tons of coments saying that Jason is the singer on the Cascio´s tracks.

And i am including WIKIPEDIA.

And talking about HT....

That´s because Teddy Riley fucked the mix.

He tried HT sounded like the fake tracks from Cascio´s BUT YOU HAVE PROOFS, YOU HAVE HANDWRITTEN NOTES FROM MJ, ETC....

Sorry, but it´s not the same case.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

LOL...................................................................... Anyone who thinks HT is NOT MJ, does NOT know MJ's voice. Yes, I just said that.

 

[JMie]

That´s not true, and you know it.

There are tons of coments saying that Jason is the singer on the Cascio´s tracks.

And i am including WIKIPEDIA.

And talking about HT....

That´s because Teddy Riley fucked the mix.

He tried HT sounded like the fake tracks from Cascio´s BUT YOU HAVE PROOFS, YOU HAVE HANDWRITTEN NOTES FROM MJ, ETC....

Sorry, but it´s not the same case.

you should have a talk with Howard Mann and Melissa Johnson. they are also fans of wikipedia.

 

[Dorian]

That´s not true, and you know it.

There are tons of coments saying that Jason is the singer on the Cascio´s tracks.

And i am including WIKIPEDIA.

And talking about HT....

That´s because Teddy Riley fucked the mix.

He tried HT sounded like the fake tracks from Cascio´s BUT YOU HAVE PROOFS, YOU HAVE HANDWRITTEN NOTES FROM MJ, ETC....

Sorry, but it´s not the same case.

Wiki can be edited by anyone .And I am not talking about the processed voice,but about the Single version

 

[Kapital77]

The single version is more clear that it´s MJ.

The people who thinks it´s not Michael, it´s because they heard the FAKE tracks from Cascio´s and then they also think THAT others song could be fake. If they heard the mix of HT from Teddy and they also saw that the album has 3 fake tracks from Cascios they could think HT is also fake track.

But those people could see that Michael Jackson let HANDWRITTEN NOTES for HT and we also had a demo of that song before Michael died.

For the other part, Michael had a song called Monster (1998), that is not the one from the Cascio´s and also there is no proof (not Handwritten notes, no demo, nothing) that shows Michael wrotte or sung in the song from Cascios (Monster summer of 2009). I am not talking about Monster from 1998 (a man who want to suicide) that it´s a true MJ song, i am talking about the fake song from Cascios.... PAPARAZZI/ANIMAL/MONSTERS/ZIGZAG/ADLIBS FROM "ON THE LINE", etc...

 

[Kapital77]

This is for the ones who did not heard the comparisons:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S7TALELC

It´s Malachi.

 

[Kapital77]

The people that you said don´t know how Michael sounds.

It´s impossible to say that "Best of Joy" it´s not Michael Jackson, because it´s his voice and there are proofs for that song.

You are joking if you are trying to say that there are the same amount of people saying "Cascio´s tracks are fake" vs "Best of joy" it´s fake".

The controversy is with the Cascios tracks, not with other tracks.

Maybe there is a LITTLE amount of fans who thinks "Best of joy" and "HT" it´s fake, but i don´t think so.

Everything it´s because the album include 3 tracks not sung by Michael Jackson.

There is no proof for those tracks, and there are proofs (HANDWRITTEN NOTES) for BEST OF JOY and HOLLYWOOD TONIGHT.

There are no proof for:

Breaking news
Monster
Keep your head up
All i need
Stay

Because they are sung by the imposter, JM.

And everybody knows it.

And i could also say:

"Heard MJ in the Lead vocals on Cascio´s songs IS IGNORANCE about how MJ sounds".

But not, i am not disrespectful as you are with the people who said it´s JM.

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Potato

 

[Member Service]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

round and round and round we go, man I'm getting dizzy.

To let you all know, as there is no proof these are or are not Michael this thread will be moved to the conspiracy forum in the next few days.

Don't even try with the I'm stifling conversation or freedom of speech as I do believe this has been here for as many months.

 

[MJearthsong]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Definitely WRONG.

I saw how people reacted after learning by READING or by WORD-OF-MOUTH RECOMMENDATION that some tracks would be FAKE. At that time they didn't know which songs are by Cascios and which not. It doesn't matter which tracks they heard first.

As soon as they heard "Best Of Joy" and "Hollywood Tonight" they considered them to be fake thanks to their naivety.

It's just that on the forums where the hardcore fans are located people are made aware of the actual proof that was made public for "Hollywood Tonight" and "Best Of Joy".
That's how people that initially thought these tracks to be fake are now convinced by the opposite.


"Tristan" was one of them. I accurately translated his reaction to "Hollywood Tonight" back then but he then refused ever having thought so when he learnt of me quoting him to show how easy people can be manipulated...


On Amazon & Co. "Best Of Joy" and "Hollywood Tonight" are being questioned no less than the Cascio songs.
Believe it or not.




That's how it is.
PREJUDICE IS IGNORANCE

That's because both BOJ and HT have some effect on some verses that sounds un-natural. It's natural that the general public has questions around these 2 as well.

 

[Birchey]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Such comment is just LOL! If you really listened to the leaked version - which was an idea by producer Tricky Stewart - you would have noticed that MJ is actually singing this:

"What about apathy?
What about apathy?
What about all their joy?
What about apathy?

What about apathy?
What about apathy?
What about all their joy?
What about apathy?"


The elephant line of the "Earth Song" has - of course(!!!) - not been sampled as it would have been totally out of context.

Many fans THOUGHT it would be "animals", "elephants", "africa"...

It's all WRONG!!! Stop spreading such false information that can be easily DISMISSED BY SIMPLY LISTENING TO IT. Thanks!!
The "What about apathy" line is an outtake that was never used on any released song.

Wrong, the line is "What about everything" from the Album cut of Earth Song as can be heard at 3:45 on the acapella http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K04iaJrcYVM :tease:

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Birchey, leak whatever you have, because they will move us to the vault.

But the truth will never be hidden forever.