Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

One of my main issues is that it seems that Michael wasn't involved with the music at all, that all the music were recorded after his death. Just that, means it's not a Michael song at all. Add to that that many of us think "he" sounds strange. Doesn't it bothering you? Doesn't bother Sony or the Estate? And why not? They should be really worried.

Who said Michael recorded at the Cascios?
Michael said hes allways writing a potpurri of songs. Not recorded them. He could just have sang it on a little tape recorder or something. And just because Michael said hes allways writing songs doesn't mean he actually was.

This is a main issue of course...I mean, even IF the songs are Michael (you all know I don't believe that lol), but even if they are, they've completely mutilated his voice beyond recognition...And, Teddy claimed that all he got were the vocals, so, if the songs were completed after his death, along with the alien voice, then it can't possibly be considered a Michael Jackson song...It's wrong either way, whether it's a fraud, or it's actually him..It's a disgusting insult to him and a massive damage to his legacy. So, whether you believe it's Michael or not, there is absolutely no excuse for the way the Estate has treated this album and subsequently, his legacy...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That's because that song was completed before he died, Bumper.

Well, obviously, lol.

These Cascio songs are the first ones that are completed AFTER his death.

From the other side of the grave? :D Or by using someone else's voice?

Ok, joke aside, "This Is It" proves that they had to assemble Michael Jackson's songs after his death too. The recording conditions weren't necessarily up to a classic studio standard, yet his voice was still undisputedly HIS.


So they will obviously sound different than anything we've EVER heard before.

Why obviously? Why would they obviously ressemble someone else's voice more than his own?

They are chopped and processed, we've NEVER heard that before.

You accept that explanation along the lines that those very songs were the most complete, hence their choice to put them on the album? Chopped, processed and most complete, all at the same time? How is that?


That is why I believe you hear a slightly different voice.

I actually hear a huge difference, not a slight difference. I was frowning all along asking myself who was singing after 25 years of every day listening to MJ. Never ever have I turned my back on MJ, even during the most difficult times for MJ. Check my join date to this communty, which I actually had followed as a guest even much longer before than what my join date indicates, that says it all. Many of the fans here weren't kids or young teenagers back then, while many others turned their back on MJ and now that he's dead came back and say it is MJ's voice in those songs!

Listen to Michael on Stay, after the first line when he says something like "Oh no, now" or "Hold on, now". sounds exactly like Michael Jackson! and "She was my baby..."

"STAY"? Michael? Wait a minute. Let me explain something to you. I was able to recognize Michael's voice as a backing chorus (among other voices) in the Stevie Wonder song "All I do" when I heard it for the first time on a crappy quality radio, without having ever heard that song before and without being told by anyone that MJ was credited there. I checked it by myself afterwards in a CD shop and indeed MJ is credited.

Now, when I heard "STAY", I am sure that even with the best HI-FI equipment I would have never ever heard Michael in that song. To my ears actually the song "STAY" is the ultimate proof that MJ doesn't sing in the Cascio songs. As far as I am concerned, "STAY" is the worst example to put forward to confirm anything regarding the Cascio songs.

Is there a comparison video of those two lines?

I don't know, but it sounds nothing like MJ to my ears.

edit: Wow, every time I listen to Stay it becomes more obvious that these songs are really Michael. Malachi is just NOT this good.

Malachi is good. Malachi's voice is the most similar voice to MJ's that I've ever heard so far, but he will never ever surpass Michael Jackson, nor will he be able to fool everyone. Did you know that still today many people believe that some songs sung and credited by Malachi are sung by MJ after so many years? Observing that, we must admit that he is actually damn good to fool people so long despite all the credits.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yes, of course this controversy has always troubled me, since the day before Breaking News came out and I heard that Michael's children were saying it wasn't him on the tracks. I have been very torn ever since. It has been crazy, I have never experienced anything like this before, really.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

edit2: I also want to know if any of the 'doubters' have an answer to this:

If these Cascio tracks ARENT the tracks that Michael recorded in 2007, where are all the tracks that he recorded in 2007?

In the vault? On his computer? On many other supports in his own studio? Does all this sound so impossible?

Are you saying the he didn't record ANY demos whatsoever in 2007?

No, I didn't say that. But the Cascio songs are not convincing enough.


Was he not constantly recording and writing, like he said?

Yes, and after that he would demand Eddie to destroy what he constantly wrote and recorded?

Why do you put it past him that he could have written these demos or he had these songs in his head for a long time? Or that he did them in no time at all or at very late hours in the night?

Because then I would have to accept that all the (non-Cascio) fake songs present on youtube are also Michael's, recorded in bad condition. Sounding different and being credited as MJ, doesn't actually mean that it IS MJ to my ears. Sorry.

How do you know?

How do you know that someone loves you? Can you prove it? It's the same for the things you hear after 25 years of daily listening experience.

But if he was recording all the time, where are the REAL demos at? :eek:

In the vault.

I want to know that! Because of COURSE he recorded with Eddie.

Well, if the songs that we hear are those that were supposedly recorded with Eddie, then I don't believe it, because I don't hear MJ in them.

We all know that. That's a fact!
Is it? What do we actually know? Nothing at all. We don't know what they recorded if they recorded anything.

So where are those demos?! He sent fake ones to Sony and kept the real tracks they recorded for himself?

MJ recorded in 2007, but who says that he was actually recording with Eddie? And even so, if he did it, you think he would do 12 songs in which his voice would be unrecognizable? How (in)convenient for miliking fans for the future releases.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I agree with your points, Bumper, but we still just don't know.

I've been a fan of Michael Jackson for about 18 years now, and I would say I have his voice pretty ingrained into my memory, as well.

Just because I joined this random Michael Jackson message board later than you doesn't make me any less of a fan. I don't know if that's what you're trying to imply when you bring something like that up, but I'm just point out that my 'register date' has nothing to do with how long I've been a fan of MJ and can recognize his voice or that I 'turned my back on him and came back'.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I agree with your points, Bumper, but we still just don't know.

I've been a fan of Michael Jackson for about 18 years now, and I would say I have his voice pretty ingrained into my memory, as well.

And after so many years (of daily listening?) you hear Michael in the Cascio songs?


Just because I joined this random Michael Jackson message board later than you doesn't make me any less of a fan. I don't know if that's what you're trying to imply when you bring something like that up, but I'm just point out that my 'register date' has nothing to do with how long I've been a fan of MJ and can recognize his voice or that I 'turned my back on him and came back'.

No, my point was that the join date was during the most difficult times for Michael. I wanted to emphasize that I was among those fans who did not turn my back on MJ in his most difficult times. My join dates proves it. It has nothing to do with how long has someone been on this board, but with the loyalty to MJ when the entire world was against him accusing him of disgusting things without a single proof. These latter were even fabricated by Sneddon. I got almost banned from this community for publicly insulting Sneddon during the trial.

p.s. Today without a single proof they claim Michael sings in the Cascio tracks. Sorry, but I had my dosis of no-proof-stuff when it comes to Michael.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have a lot of respect for you for that, Bumper, but I still don't think we can be sure based what your ears tell us rather than what ours tell us and our logic tells us.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have a lot of respect for you for that, Bumper, but I still don't think we can be sure based what your ears tell us rather than what ours tell us and our logic tells us.


Thanks, but I didn't intend to draw respect for that, I just find it normal to support someone who is wrongfully accused. What I actually wanted to say is that at least that long years listening experience give me some credit. Not all the credit, but some.

All in all, as Arklove pointed it out, even if it was MJ in those songs, it would lack respect to the king of pop as his voice is as a matter of fact questioned and triggered a controversy not only here but among the MJ community worldwide. It is certainly inapproriate, especially when you learn that those songs were sold by MJ's supposed friends. I suppose that $5m is enough to do such a thing, it's tempting.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Michael was always, God knows, particular about his releases. The demos released on The Ultimate collection I'm sure either Michael had no controll of or just according to his contract. ( "Give sony any songs" as he told us)
To then release these songs (Cascios) is an insult to him and his legacy. The more I think of it the more sad and angry I get. How could they. I wouldn't dare touch or produce music for him if he weren't here, or in this case after his death and then put it on an album claiming it to be Michael. When he is the most populare, sold, creative, genius artist ever lived on this planet.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So Michael never recorded with the Cascio's now? Even with Will.I.Am and Akon confirming he recorded there? And for those of you who believe the children said it wasn't him, which I'd still like to see a video of, in the same article the children also confirm he recorded there, only the music he recorded didn't match the music on the album.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Michael was always, God knows, particular about his releases. The demos released on The Ultimate collection I'm sure either Michael had no controll of or just according to his contract. ( "Give sony any songs" as he told us)
To then release these songs (Cascios) is an insult to him and his legacy. The more I think of it the more sad and angry I get. How could they. I wouldn't dare touch or produce music for him if he weren't here, or in this case after his death and then put it on an album claiming it to be Michael. When he is the most populare, sold, creative, genius artist ever lived on this planet.

Ultimately, above all....Whether it's him or not, I think we can ALL agree on this...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So Michael never recorded with the Cascio's now? Even with Will.I.Am and Akon confirming he recorded there? And for those of you who believe the children said it wasn't him, which I'd still like to see a video of, in the same article the children also confirm he recorded there, only the music he recorded didn't match the music on the album.


We don't know what they recorded, even if they recorded. We don't know who sang what. We don't know who played what. In any case, the result is what we hear:

A) Some claiming it is MJ's voice
B) Some claiming it is not MJ's voice

In any case the voice is not usual MJ's voice. It is something that the doubters could accept I guess, but all of the songs that we hear? It's a bit too much, isn't it?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Think about this, for the most part the aim for this album was to include Michael's most recent work, that became evident with the press releases/etc. from the Estate and Sony, before the album released. Factor in the fact that Sony is a business, not a fan club, their decisions are based on profit, not much of it is based on what some of the fans would prefer. They felt these songs, being some of the most recent and unheard, would earn more for them than Blue Gangsta, DYKWYCA, and A Place With No Name. Now with that said, do you really believe a multi-billion dollar corporation like Sony would say "these songs are incomplete, no matter how recent they are, replace them with completed older songs."; After already informing everyone about the basis of this album? No, they're going to do whatever they can to complete these songs and earn desired profit. Keep in mind this was their first go around at this, and they obviously didn't anticipate the reaction from the hardcore fan community, they'll learn from it. But I expect at least one new Cascio track will be released on the next album.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Think about this, for the most part the aim for this album was to include Michael's most recent work, that became evident with the press releases/etc. from the Estate and Sony, before the album released. Factor in the fact that Sony is a business, not a fan club, their decisions are based on profit, not much of it is based on what some of the fans would prefer. They felt these songs, being some of the most recent and unheard, would earn more for them than Blue Gangsta, DYKWYCA, and A Place With No Name. Now with that said, do you really believe a multi-billion dollar corporation like Sony would say "these songs are incomplete, no matter how recent they are, replace them with completed older songs."; After already informing everyone about the basis of this album? No, they're going to do whatever they can to complete these songs and earn desired profit. Keep in mind this was their first go around at this, and they obviously didn't anticipate the reaction from the hardcore fan community, they'll learn from it. But I expect at least one new Cascio track will be released on the next album.

They made a big mistake, and they actually don't care at all. Go to www.michaeljackson.com and you'll see from the comments what I mean.

Bobby Solo will never be Elvis Presley despite the vocal ressemblance, and will never generate as much money as original Elvis:

[youtube]Cq4DzzjXfeY&feature=related[/youtube]

The same way, when a voice doesn't ressemble what originally should sound in the case of "Michael", then it is a big mistake to release it without some more solid proof.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Keep in mind this was their first go around at this, and they obviously didn't anticipate the reaction from the hardcore fan community, they'll learn from it.

or they wouldn't care about the reaction from the hardcore fan community. I mentioned this a few days ago

Beatles - released songs using Lennon's demo vocals that he recorded at his home to a handheld tape recorder - a portion of Beatles fans protested it.

Tupac Shakur - believed he was going to be killed and recorded and left many songs behind - those were released with finishing touches from other people - some Tupac fans protested the touching up by other people.

Notorious B.I.G : his demo or previously cut verses has been turned into duets with other rappers and released - again some of his fans protested the copy-paste new song creation.

The above examples all include legit and not debated vocals but yet those albums were criticized by a portion of the hardcore fans due to the finishing done by other people / touching up to what was left behind / financial goals etc etc.

Similarly I think they might have expected a group of hardcore fans to criticize the album for one reason or another. If the criticism is as much as they expected to be "normal or acceptable" I wouldn't expect such a drastic change from them in the future projects.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

or they wouldn't care about the reaction from the hardcore fan community. I mentioned this a few days ago

Beatles - released songs using Lennon's demo vocals that he recorded at his home to a handheld tape recorder - a portion of Beatles fans protested it.

Tupac Shakur - believed he was going to be killed and recorded and left many songs behind - those were released with finishing touches from other people - some Tupac fans protested the touching up by other people.

Notorious B.I.G : his demo or previously cut verses has been turned into duets with other rappers and released - again some of his fans protested the copy-paste new song creation.

The above examples all include legit and not debated vocals but yet those albums were criticized by a portion of the hardcore fans due to the finishing done by other people / touching up to what was left behind / financial goals etc etc.

Similarly I think they might have expected a group of hardcore fans to criticize the album for one reason or another. If the criticism is as much as they expected to be "normal or acceptable" I wouldn't expect such a drastic change from them in the future projects.


Did the fans of John Lennon, Notorius B.I.G. and Tupac have doubt on the authenticity of the vocals on those posthumous releases?

Yes, some here criticized the way Teddy Riley replaced Michael's lyrics with his own. Some here don't like his productions. But, what so many of us have issues with are the authenticity of vocals.

I don't think there is going to be drastic change in future posthumous releases for Sony did make a profit with this album. At the end of the day, it's all about money; not fans' feelings.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Want to know what I really think happened?

Michael went there, recorded a few sounds, maybe a few vocals. Michael didn't bother keeping a record, and it was just a mess around. Cascio thinks, and keeps them and thinks he can make some money by getting someone to finish the song off.

Or simply... they are demo's of a soundalike for Michael, which R.Kelly did for You Are Not Alone, sang like Michael to see what it sounded like.

Or Michael wrote things and Cascio never got to keep them. (If so surely Cascio would have said, and would be in the vault already)

Or simply Michael didn't record at all.

Possibilities are endless.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's too late anyway. The damage is done. It's one thing messing with MJ's music (which is bad enough - but almost forgiveable), but the Cascio songs take it to a whole new level. Those 3 songs will go down in history as MJ songs. What an utter disgrace.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

you know I was arguing pretty intensely a while back. I felt positive the songs were song by Michael, but you know I'm actually really skeptical.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Did the fans of John Lennon, Notorius B.I.G. and Tupac have doubt on the authenticity of the vocals on those posthumous releases?

No. see my post

The above examples all include legit and not debated vocals but yet those albums were criticized by a portion of the hardcore fans due to the finishing done by other people / touching up to what was left behind / financial goals etc etc.

and that's actually my point. Even though those artists and albums didn't have any of the vocals debate that we have here, they were still criticized , protested, complained about.

and that's why refer as the reality of posthumous release. Sony would have known that for one reason or another a group of hardcore fans wouldn't be happy with the album and the vocals debate and effect of this debate might not be really that significant for them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's too late anyway. The damage is done. It's one thing messing with MJ's music (which is bad enough - but almost forgiveable), but the Cascio songs take it to a whole new level.

[youtube]hKH1JXVv7C4[/youtube]



Those 3 songs will go down in history as MJ songs. What an utter disgrace.


[youtube]qnT8hICaiNM&feature=related[/youtube]
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's too late anyway. The damage is done. It's one thing messing with MJ's music (which is bad enough - but almost forgiveable), but the Cascio songs take it to a whole new level. Those 3 songs will go down in history as MJ songs. What an utter disgrace.

Exactly! Even if the vocals are indeed MJ's, these songs are not Michael Jackson songs. I mentioned before that the way the handled the songs are as disgusting as hiring an impersonator.

The moment Sony and the Estate heard about these songs, they should have re-considered their strategy and see whether it's still the right thing to release questionalbe demos.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

you know I was arguing pretty intensely a while back. I felt positive the songs were song by Michael, but you know I'm actually really skeptical.

Yes, I remember arguing with you a while back, too ;)

@kopwatcher...EXACTLY....I think every MJ fan has a right to be royally pissed off no matter what..It is a complete disgrace no matter which way you look at it..
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

you know I was arguing pretty intensely a while back. I felt positive the songs were song by Michael, but you know I'm actually really skeptical.

In the beginning I was actually trying to convince myself that I was listening to MJ. But deep down inside I was skeptical. After all, I decided that I should never ever be skeptical when it comes to MJ's songs and voice. I mean, one song or two ok, but all the Cascio songs that I heard so far, especially STAY! I say, no way.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

In the beginning I was actually trying to convince myself that I was listening to MJ. But deep down inside I was skeptical. After all, I decided that I should never ever be skeptical when it comes to MJ's songs and voice. I mean, one song or two ok, but all the Cascio songs that I heard so far, especially STAY! I say, no way.

I did the same...I TRIED to hear him...That shouldn't have to be the case when listening to him...:no:

And, I agree about Stay...That one is just....no...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I did! The same... I TRIED, to. Hear him...That!!!! Shouldn't have, to! Be the case! When listening to him...?:no:

And, I. Agree! About Stay... That one is. Just....no...
:doh::scratch:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Is Arklove going Shatner!?
 
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