Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Am I disappointed by the Cascio tracks? Yes. Am I angry and being negative. I don't thinks so. Frustrated yes. I hope I'm somewhat objective too.

I see the word "negativity" being used all the time. Is expressing an unfavorable opinion a negative act? Can we institue a dose of objectivity back?

to be clear when I posted "spare yourself this disappointment / anger / negativity" , I meant them in a "check all that apply" sense.

so you personally could be disappointed. someone else could show a combination of disappointment and anger etc etc.

It was never meant to be mutually inclusive (all of the following).

Is enjoying as much as we can means blindly accepting everything thrown to us?

no of course not.

and here I'll examine "negativity" as well for a minute. (and not you specifically)

look to topics that we have about this album - song selection- vocal controversy - album cover - promotion - single selection - single cover - videos etc etc.

sometimes you see people posting on these topics with rejecting every single thing - such as song selection is wrong, these vocals / songs should have been omitted, cover is weak, promotion doesn't exist, single selection is wrong, the mix used in the single is horrendous, video is meaningless, it doesn't tell the story, why a girl, why a dancer and not an actor, why change this, why keep this, etc etc etc..

in short if all the above rejection comes from the same person than it accounts to - or at least seems like - negativity.

For example in all honestly I couldn't even comprehend the hate towards Hollywood Tonight video.

It's a legit song - so it shouldn't be affected by any vocal controversy.
they furthermore used a less processed vocal version - which shows listening to criticism.
I'm almost certain that Michael probably didn't leave a road map for a video for a song that he didn't even finish.
their approach is obvious - they go with people that worked with Michael and who loved Michael and these videos are tributes of these people to Michael.


I don't know enough about John Lennon, Notorius B.I.G. and Tupac to offer my opinion on their posthumous releases. As for Michael's music, I think I have heard enough to have an opinion.

my point wasn't to discuss their releases. It was simply to point out anything that could be released was released and that this had caused similar arguments as to what we are having now among fans.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

These isn't a battle for egos here, if you guys dont want to debate properly without name calling then its a bad job. You're adults-stop resorting to name calling.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

These isn't a battle for egos here, if you guys dont want to debate properly without name calling then its a bad job. You're adults-stop resorting to name calling.

What's this? Censorship? Did you even read my post? Where exactly did I call names? I put forward two songs and gave arguments. I was expecting a counter-argument based on the same level of observation! Why was my last post completely deleted?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok, I'll re-try, hoping my post won't be removed.

Disclaimer: no ego intended

@Annieareyouok:

You claimed:

1) Cascio songs heavily processed
2) Hollywood Tonight heavily processed
3) Hence, similar situation

I replied:

Did you also observe the following:

4) Processed or not, the Cascio tracks are controversed and questioned

5) Processed or not, Hollywood Tonight is neither controversed nor questioned as
they are doubtlessly recognizable to MJ's fans ears and considered superior to the Cascio tracks

6) Some people have claimed that the Cascio vocals haven't been processed and heard Michael's voice

7) On the other hand, many people from the same camp gave many excuses regarding the unusual voice on the Cascio tracks

8) On top of all that, there is no single trace of evidence that Michael sang any of the Cascio songs as reportedly he demanded to destroy all the evidence.

9) Finally, Jason's voice ressembles the Cascio tracks more than Michael's voice from any era.

Here is the example of a Jason song vs the song Monster. If you don't hear the same voice, then I am asking you to give me a counter-argument by posting any of Michael's song which I will carefully listen vs the song Monster in order to observe from the same point of view as you and all those in whose name you were stating your arguments:

N.B. The following are not snippets but entire songs:

[youtube]FdV5YTpuKIs[/youtube]


[youtube]p_Ho8VUCIII&feature=related[/youtube]
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

What's this? Censorship? Did you even read my post? Where exactly did I call names? I put forward two songs and gave arguments. I was expecting a counter-argument based on the same level of observation! Why was my last post completely deleted?

The post you made was rude and reported by other members which is why yours was deleted, as well as others you were giving the same. People want to read a debate, they do not want to read blatant rudeness. But thank you for re-posting what you were saying in manner that was consistant with the rules, thank you for that.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The post you made was rude and reported by other members which is why yours was deleted, as well as others you were giving the same. People want to read a debate, they do not want to read blatant rudness. But thank you for re-posting what you were saying in manner that was consistant with the rules, thank you for that.

Yeah, funny how people who often themselves are rude report other people.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yeah, funny how people who often themselves are rude report other people.

And aren't called out publicly when others report them. In fact, a lot of their posts aren't even deleted without having to specifically ask for a deletion.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

And now can we get back on topic please everyone. Many thanks.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

And now can we get back off topic please everyone. Many thanks.

Sure:D

Did you know that Chuck Norris plays the Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I tried searching but this thread is so long I gave up lmao.
Were the demos used to make this album released? People were saying that they like the "untouched" version Hollywood Tonight more than the one on this album... where could I find that and the other songs used to make this album?

Sorry if this is a noobish (can't think of another word :lol:) question
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I tried searching but this thread is so long I gave up lmao.
Were the demos used to make this album released? People were saying that they like the "untouched" version Hollywood Tonight more than the one on this album... where could I find that and the other songs used to make this album?

Sorry if this is a noobish (can't think of another word :lol:) question

In the video, they used non/less-processed voice

[youtube]zjGtTUfPcI4[/youtube]
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Please stop discussing the reporting issue as well as do not generalize

- a lot of people read this thread, majority of the time posts are being reported by readers and not by the people participating in the specific discussion
- as sophielo said people are interested in the discussion, not in personal conversations, back and forth between members
- if you have any requests of moderation due to a post use the report button. complaining about stuff on a thread would not necessarily result in moderation action
- if you have question about the moderation of your posts contact the moderator who did the action. again complaining on a thread wouldn't bring anything to you.

and the main issue here is the statements being made sounding "so definitive or factual". Remember this is a debate thread (meaning two opposite opinions are present) and everyone is trying to support their opinions. When people make definitive statements it sound like not respecting the other ideas/discussion and/or pushing your opinion on to others. If this simple principle is followed majority of the issues we have on this thread would have been avoided.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hello Aniram, welcome back, I knew you were going to come back. :D
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hello, Bumper!!!!!!!!!!! Glad you so excite! Many hugs and kisses for my pal, you! :D MMMwahMMwahMmwah!!!

Happy Debating!(Starting to sound like a holiday now :))
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok so what evidence do we have from Eddie that these tracks are real.

O yes... two things.

A picture of where Michael recorded and the shower.

That must mean, he deferentially sang them songs. Nice one dude!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Don't forget that he says he also pushed buttons. He sounds pretty convincing, I have to say.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

can anybody tell me if it's true that Michael ordered Cascio to destroy all the footage of MJ recording the vocals for these songs?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ Yes, no, maybe so.
 
JacksonMan;3314449 said:
can anybody tell me if it's true that Michael ordered Cascio to destroy all the footage of MJ recording the vocals for these songs?

Taryll, according to his own words, asked the Cascios to hear the raw vocals or a demo. The Cascio told him that there were no other versions. When the Taryll asked to have access to computer where the songs were stored, they told him that the computer was broken down. When he asked to have access to the hard drive, they told him it was destroyed.

Here are quotes from Taryll:

Taryll


On Monday 8th November 2010, @Taryll said:

If you question the validity of a professional photo you can ask the photographer for more pictures from that photo shoot. If it is authentic the photographer will turn over different shots. Some with different poses, some even with eyes closed. I questioned the validity of the vocal's on "breaking news" and several other songs of theirs that I've heard and they told me no other takes or tracks exist. They claim my uncle was so happy with the performance he instructed them to delete all the other files. I had the honor to learn and watch my uncle record my entire life and that is NOT how he worked. No outtakes, no other tracks, no backups, no proof. roughly 10 songs they turned in… same story for all of them. I asked for the computer it was created on... they said it broke. I asked for the original hard drive... they said it was destroyed. One dubious excuse after another.

As far as I am concerned, it is grotesque to believe that on the one hand we would have a demo with which Michael would be so happy that he would order to destroy everything, and on the other hand that we would need Teddy to heavily process the vocals because they weren't that good! So which is it?

What is more, the official side claimed that they chose those songs because they were the most complete ones among all others!

What is also contradicting, in the official statement issued by the Estate, they claimed that they take fans opinions seriously. Well, I see none of that when it comes to the Cascio tracks. We haven't been given any official document or results by the analysts, except what reportedly the analysts said, omitting to mention, however, that not all of the people really agreed with what they heard in the studio.

We even don't know how they conducted the research and on what basis they concluded that it was Michael's voice.

To be sure that Jason Malachi wasn't involved, instead of analysing HIS vocals and compare them with the voice on the Cascio songs, all they did was CONTACTED him to ask if he was involved! What did they expect? That he was going to say "Yes, I did it."?

I honestly think there are too many flaws in all this mess and we've been given nothing but heavy silence with a timid report from the Estate.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok, I'll re-try, hoping my post won't be removed.

Disclaimer: no ego intended

@Annieareyouok:

You claimed:

1) Cascio songs heavily processed
2) Hollywood Tonight heavily processed
3) Hence, similar situation


I replied:

Did you also observe the following:

4) Processed or not, the Cascio tracks are controversed and questioned

5) Processed or not, Hollywood Tonight is neither controversed nor questioned as
they are doubtlessly recognizable to MJ's fans ears and considered superior to the Cascio tracks

6) Some people have claimed that the Cascio vocals haven't been processed and heard Michael's voice

7) On the other hand, many people from the same camp gave many excuses regarding the unusual voice on the Cascio tracks

8) On top of all that, there is no single trace of evidence that Michael sang any of the Cascio songs as reportedly he demanded to destroy all the evidence.

9) Finally, Jason's voice ressembles the Cascio tracks more than Michael's voice from any era.

Here is the example of a Jason song vs the song Monster. If you don't hear the same voice, then I am asking you to give me a counter-argument by posting any of Michael's song which I will carefully listen vs the song Monster in order to observe from the same point of view as you and all those in whose name you were stating your arguments:

N.B. The following are not snippets but entire songs:

[youtube]FdV5YTpuKIs[/youtube]


[youtube]p_Ho8VUCIII&feature=related[/youtube]

I didn't report you, by the way, just thought I'd get that out there...


4) True.

5) Not entirely true, many reviews and critics are claiming HT was a bad choice for a single, one of the major issues being, as many of them state, that the voice doesn't sound like Michael. The controversy and debate may not be as big as the Cascio tracks amongst the fan community, but it's there.

6) Hearing is subjective.

7) I can't blame them for their "excuses" I have absolutely NO reason to call them liars or any of that. Based off what? Youtube comparisons? And a confession of denial by the most named party in this?

8) I find that questionable as well, and I've mentioned it before.

9) I hear more Michael in these songs than I do Malachi, I can't help it, sorry. I've shown the WMA video before, and compared it with the Falsetto used in KYHU and I felt it was identical, others agreed, others didn't, therefore I won't repeat myself. And honestly, I'm hard pressed to show you a studio recording of Michael sounding like that previously, because as I know, there aren't any that exist in which were recorded in such conditions as the Cascio's tracks, as they claim.

As for the first part of that post, again my post didn't have much to do with the vocals, but the overall decision making on these songs, and generally, fans not being happy with what Sony and The Estate opted to do to complete this album.


PS, the Monster link doesn't work.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The World Music Awards in 2006, where MJ performed "We Are the World" after accepting an award for "Thriller".
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Oo I see! Thanks.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I didn't report you, by the way, just thought I'd get that out there...

O, don't worry about reporting thing, I didn't accuse anyone. I just have been told that I was reported without knowing by whom. Probably someone who felt you needed to be defended against cunning and disrespectful Bumper.


5) Not entirely true, many reviews and critics are claiming HT was a bad choice for a single, one of the major issues being, as many of them state, that the voice doesn't sound like Michael. The controversy and debate may not be as big as the Cascio tracks amongst the fan community, but it's there.

Many? How many? Certainly not to the same extent as the Cascio tracks. I don't see such a magnitude with HT, sorry. Many attempted to have a controversy about HT in this very thread, but it never turned into any kind of debate on the same level as the Cascio tracks. By the way HT is often used by non-doubters to point out the processed vocals, while the majority of (the Cascio) doubters even don't question HT.


6) Hearing is subjective.

Well, we're debating songs here, not colors. So, yes we need our ears. By the way, I don't think that hearing is subjective. We all hear the same thing, but the interpretation of what we hear is subjective. Anyway, it is impossible to have a debate on songs without even implying our hearing abilities. It is as if we asked deaf people to debate about something they cannot hear in order to have an objective debate. It's impossible.


7) I can't blame them for their "excuses" I have absolutely NO reason to call them liars or any of that. Based off what? Youtube comparisons? And a confession of denial by the most named party in this?

I didn't call anyone liars. I myself tried to convince that I heard MJ on BN or Monster, but every time I heard some alien voice timbre or pronunciation compared to usual Michael's voice, my eyebrows were instinctively frowning for the first time in 25 years of fandom. Why?

Now, some people accept that "Michael" might sound different, but some not. So, those who don't accept it as Michael's voice, do you imply that they lie when they say that they don't hear Michael? Based on what? On the Estate/Sony statement --which seriously lacks details on how they proceeded and on what basis they drew their conclusions that it is Michael's voice they hear?

8) I find that questionable as well, and I've mentioned it before.

Well, it is something that I just can't believe. It is really bugging me. We didn't have any direct explanations to why Michael would order to destroy all the traces, yet the very same demos needed to be heavily processed!? I just can't see any logic there whatsoever.

9) I hear more Michael in these songs than I do Malachi, I can't help it, sorry.

I respect your right to think that you hear more Michael in these songs, however, I still haven't heard any other Michael's song that ressembles, for example, "Monster". Sadly, "Let me let go" (which leaked on Internet around 2007 if I am not mistaken) ressembles vocally and musically to "Monster".

The voice in the song Monster is the same as the voice in the song BN. That very same voice I hear in "Let me let go". Now, I am ready to accept that the voice in "Let me let go" isn't the same as in "Monster or "BN", but then I really need a song, or a demo or an a cappella or Michael mumbling, or anything close to "BN"'s or "Monster"'s voice in order to believe that the voice in those songs is indeed Michael. But no such thing has ever been presented by anyone.


I've shown the WMA video before, and compared it with the Falsetto used in KYHU and I felt it was identical, others agreed, others didn't, therefore I won't repeat myself.

"Keep your head up" is another style of song. It is slower and as such probably easier to imitate. However nothing indicates that within the Cascio songs some parts of Michael's voice was copy-pasted, be it falsetto, aoows, hee-hees, or melodyne effect applied on some of Michael's previous recordings and mixed with/added to the impostor's voice. So it is not surprising to hears some bits of Michael, but the majority of the lead vocals are unusually different compared to Michael singing in any other condition (on the street, in his garden, on the phone, during th einterview, at a concert, etc). In other words, Michael had similar, if not worse, recording conditions and never had he sounded as what we hear on the Cascio songs.

Furthermore, why actually blindly denying the striking ressemblance between Malachi's songs and his vocal abilities with the Cascio tracks? Aren't they more similar than any Michael's previous vocal performance on any of his songs? Wouldn't be worthy to conduct an analysis between Malachi's vocals and the Cascio songs and point out the differences once for all and say why it is NOT Malachi's vocals that we hear?

And honestly, I'm hard pressed to show you a studio recording of Michael sounding like that previously, because as I know, there aren't any that exist in which were recorded in such conditions as the Cascio's tracks, as they claim.

How do you know actually?

Nonetheless, we have heard Michael in almost all recording conditions, he always sounded Michael:

in the street, live, during the interview, on the phone, on This Is It while talking to the musicians, in various studios, etc.

As for the first part of that post, again my post didn't have much to do with the vocals, but the overall decision making on these songs, and generally, fans not being happy with what Sony and The Estate opted to do to complete this album.


PS, the Monster link doesn't work.

Never ever should they decide to release a song when there is a slightest doubt among a non negligable number of fans regarding the songs which were recorded without any trace of evidence. Especially since Michael is not here to defend himself.

p.s. The Monster link maybe doesn't work in the USA, but you know the song. I didn't put any snippets, I put entire songs.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

We didn't have any direct explanations to why Michael would order to destroy all the traces, yet the very same demos needed to be heavily processed!?

Of course he could have. If he had a demo that was "good enough" so he could work on and just get a picture how it could sound, he then didn't need the worst demos.
I can see there is an explanation to all the excuses if you look at them isolated but put them together it sounds strange.
I'm with you Bumper so don't worry I can't listen to the songs either not just because the voice doesn't sound right but also because the songs are just plain and very everage.
And I find it really worrying that the believers doesn't even think it strange or troubling that many longtime fans doesn't think it's Michael singing. Even if you believe it's him
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Of course he could have. If he had a demo that was "good enough" so he could work on and just get a picture how it could sound, he then didn't need the worst demos.
I can see there is an explanation to all the excuses if you look at them isolated but put them together it sounds strange.
I'm with you Bumper so don't worry I can't listen to the songs either not just because the voice doesn't sound right but also because the songs are just plain and very everage.
And I find it really worrying that the believers doesn't even think it strange or troubling that many longtime fans doesn't think it's Michael singing. Even if you believe it's him

Fair enough...so far. But, then again, why would anyone on Earth claim that those Cascio songs were the most complete ones among other unreleased songs present in the vault.

We all heard "Slave to the rhythm", "Blue gangsta", "Xscape", "12 o'clock", and snippets such as "A place without no name" or even "can't get your weight off of me" which was discussed on MJJCommunity before "Michael"'s release and all of sudden forgotten.

Funny how after hearing 7 seconds of "Can't get your weight off of me" everyone recognized MJ's voice and no one made any controversy about it, whereas we have entire Cascio tracks and still many can't recognize the voice of the King Of Pop.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That's because that song was completed before he died, Bumper. These Cascio songs are the first ones that are completed AFTER his death. So they will obviously sound different than anything we've EVER heard before. They are chopped and processed, we've NEVER heard that before. That is why I believe you hear a slightly different voice. Listen to Michael on Stay, after the first line when he says something like "Oh no, now" or "Hold on, now". sounds exactly like Michael Jackson! and "She was my baby..."

Is there a comparison video of those two lines?

edit: Wow, every time I listen to Stay it becomes more obvious that these songs are really Michael. Malachi is just NOT this good.

edit2: I also want to know if any of the 'doubters' have an answer to this:

If these Cascio tracks ARENT the tracks that Michael recorded in 2007, where are all the tracks that he recorded in 2007?

Are you saying the he didn't record ANY demos whatsoever in 2007? Was he not constantly recording and writing, like he said? Why do you put it past him that he could have written these demos or he had these songs in his head for a long time? Or that he did them in no time at all or at very late hours in the night?

How do you know?

But if he was recording all the time, where are the REAL demos at? :eek:

I want to know that! Because of COURSE he recorded with Eddie. We all know that. That's a fact! So where are those demos?! He sent fake ones to Sony and kept the real tracks they recorded for himself?
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Unrelated to the post above, so I'm posting separately, but maybe someone will post before this gets posted.

People argue that Michael Jackson was a perfectionist when it came to vocals and releasing material, but I have always found this quite odd:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/f4l1lb

If you would please be kind enough to listen to that WAV file, it's from One More Chance where Michael sings, "Help me make these mysteries unfold..." When he sings 'Mysteries' it sounds, well, quite strange.
If you don't want to download the file and have the song One More Chance, skip to 1:25

I want to know if anyone has more background on that sound he makes. Is it a vocal screwup, is it an editing error, What the hell is it?

I mean, I always notice it, so I have grown to love it, but I can see how some would think it sounds messed up and it definitely doesn't sound like the perfectionist that Michael is.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

One of my main issues is that it seems that Michael wasn't involved with the music at all, that all the music were recorded after his death. Just that, means it's not a Michael song at all. Add to that that many of us think "he" sounds strange. Doesn't it bothering you? Doesn't bother Sony or the Estate? And why not? They should be really worried.

Who said Michael recorded at the Cascios?
Michael said hes allways writing a potpurri of songs. Not recorded them. He could just have sang it on a little tape recorder or something. And just because Michael said hes allways writing songs doesn't mean he actually was.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I don't think Michael lied about that. Are you an artist? I write and record songs all the time. Since the 60s-70's it hasn't been very difficult, just getting easier with time.

In 2007, with the technology around Michael, he could have been producing insane amounts of material, just random melodies, ideas, songs, sounds, whatever.

You have to keep in mind that Michael was always an artist and always creating something, even while relaxing and being a father. At least that's what I picked up from him, anyway, he always assured this in interviews and things. He always said he was always writing and never stopped making music. I believe he was genuine about that. If you're an artist you'll understand.

Sure, you might go a little while not making something but you're still always thinking about creating and you never lose that spark. I doubt Michael ever lost his spark, even if he didn't always sound perfect or whatever scenarios prevented these songs from sounding perfect... Maybe he sounded great and they just screwed the songs. I don't know... But I do hear Michael on them. I'm just going by that. I don't hear the guy that sings 'How I Do' and 'Tell It Like It Is' on these tracks.

I also remind myself that Michael was just two years away from his death, I don't know how much his health was swaying in these times. We have absolutely no idea.. so we have to just go with our ears and our logic. My logic tells me that these songs are harmless. They are quite lovely, have powerful messages that could be even more powerful if they had been completed, but EVERYONE understands that Michael Jackson is dead so anything released will be some uncompleted unreleased demo!!! NO ONE is expecting that this is going to be Michael Jackson's product that he went into the studio and made sure everything was just how it should be.

With songs like Slave To The Rhythm I have a feeling we'll either hear them on a release in the future or there are even better songs we haven't heard. We really don't know! I have a feeling there's some incredible unreleased stuff, though.

It's so weird to think that somewhere out there, floating around in space or something on some hard-drive are Michael Jackson melodies we've never heard. I love wondering what they could possibly sound like. :)
 
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