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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

a2z said:
Chandler and co didn't have any "proof that can hold up in court" either but look how far all that went.

Trust me, if there was even a sliver of reasonable doubt there would have been injunctions (and not twitters) flying around.

Simply put, you are listening to the private, demo, work in progress recordings of a broken, overworked man that were never intended to be released and instead have been computerized up the anus to squeeze as much money as they can from his memory.

I feel so sorry for MJ from the bottom of my heart for the life he was forced to lead but I jump in joy for the music he created and shared that helped me get through my life.
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What wonderful friends those Cascios though.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's the same situation with Hollywood Tonight, these songs can be better, they shouldn't be processed to the max, and Michael should be here promoting them. Reality is, Michael's gone, and these songs are being completed with a lack of care that Michael would usually bring to the table. Despite doing the best they can to turn these songs into releasable products, Michael has no final say, but there isn't really anything we can do about it.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
It's the same situation with Hollywood Tonight, these songs can be better, they shouldn't be processed to the max, and Michael should be here promoting them. Reality is, Michael's gone, and these songs are being completed with a lack of care that Michael would usually bring to the table. Despite doing the best they can to turn these songs into releasable products, Michael has no final say, but there isn't really anything we can do about it.
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Except that Hollywood Tonight is sung by Michael Jackson.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum officially signing out of the Cascio debate. I hope the truth will prevail some day. I will pray for that.

Peace.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Jesta said:
His input would be invaluable. Too bad he's seemed to close himself off from the situation...
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If Seth believed Michael sang on the cascio tracks he would have said so by now.
SONY would have gladly used his name to verify and authenticate the tracks and called him in as one of the 'experts'.

Except, he wasn't called in or he DECLINED.

I wonder why that would be then?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Monster is sung by MJ as much as "Let me let go".
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Says the linguistics teacher who assumes linguistics makes you educated in studio production.

...I should totally value your opinion as fact.:smilerolleyes:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Are you leaving for good, Pentum? Or just for today?

That could be an explanation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Seth is still grieving. Think about it, he was working with MJ for such a long time, hearing his voice could hurt him as it hurts many of the fans (like listening to songs like "Gone Too Soon"). Again, I wouldn't be surprised if many people turned down working on the project for that very reason. Even Teddy had to have pictures of MJ all around the studio in order to get the job done.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Cascio - he's clearly still griveing. I mean, look at him. Thats a greiving man.

"I had what I had and I got the job done!"
Eddie Cascio, November 2010
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Jesta said:
@love, that is essentially what they did, yes. I agree, it's very unethical to make something than nothing, but some fans (myself included) enjoy the songs) unfortunately these songs are very fragmented and a LOT was done to complete it. This is the reality we live in, sadly.
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Many fans who support the Cascio tracks said now that Michael's gone. It's impossible to have perfect output. At least we have something new. It's better than nothing at all.

I don't know whether I agree with that anymore. Of course, never-before-heard songs like BG, DYKWYCA, STTR, BoJ, MTS and HT are treasures. They are wonderful additions to Michael's splendid catalog. However, I really can't say the Cascio songs do Michael justice. It pains me to see all these "over-processed-to-a-point-where-you-can't-recognize-anymore" tracks are released in his name.

No doubt the melodies of some of the Cascio tracks are quite enjoyable. I can see the potential in them had Michael decided to further develop them and work on them. Unfortunately, he didn't. No one knows whether Michael never gave the songs too much thought or he would have completed them in London. But, with the condition the demos were. They should have never been sold.

Regarding the Cascio tracks, you are not enjoying a Michael Jackson song. You are just listening to a Eddie Cascio/Teddy Riley manipulation with some tiny little Michael Jackson vocals recorded in 2007.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Birchey said:
I respect your opinions but to be honest, MJ supposedly sung 12 tracks, complete with tons of Layered vocaling and tried out various vocal techniques. No one in his adult life forced him to sing anything in the studio regardless of time frames he had to complete albums MJ went at his pace, MJ made the decisions when and where it was right to record.
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I know and agree but he:

a) Didn't know he was going to die and
b) Didn't know the leeches would use his reference tracks for retail

I view these recordings as scratchpads, you know yourself from studio work sometimes you just step in the booth and vibe but thats only work in progress, hell I've got reels of Jay Z mumbling incoherently in the booth as he paces a track in his head that later on became a number one hit.

If he'd died that night theres no way the studio would have used the mumble mumble tracks on retail but all seems fair in life and death in the case of MJ.

You can see how these were money making decisions to whack together a quick cut and paste album of grab bag tracks ASAP. I mean, us fans could create more coherent, flowing and polished albums from our bootlegs, edits and leaks so this tells you that the label wasn't getting any love from the estate and instead ran around and grabbed what they could in order to capitalize for the Christmas market dollar.

love is magical said:
Isn't it just as disgusting as hiring an impersonator?

I'm willing to believe these are indeed MJ's demos with a truck load of processing and manipulations. It still doesn't make the songs genuine.

Allowing such insults to Michael's crafts is as disrespectful as faking songs.
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It's even worse than an impersonator in my eyes, its straight up pissing on his legacy. As I said, these tracks were never meant to be heard by us. They are as far removed from retail as the original "Drunken" Billie Jean was from the million mixes and vocal takes later polished like a diamond retail version was.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You don't know what's happened behind closed doors, though. According to many of the Jacksons, Joe had grieved greatly in private while promoting his music label in public. If you had a friend in the public eye's last works, wouldn't you want the world to hear it?

@Love, I completely agree with you. While I enjoy them, they are a blemish on his stellar catalogue for sure because it is seriously lacking that stamp of approval. Heck, even "Hollywood Tonight" had the same (but more downplayed) cut-and-paste job towards the end.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
Says the linguistics teacher who assumes linguistics makes you educated in studio production.

...I should totally value your opinion as fact.:smilerolleyes:
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Did I say anything against you on the personal level or did I speak about the songs?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

MJRemixed said:
If Seth believed Michael sang on the cascio tracks he would have said so by now.
SONY would have gladly used his name to verify and authenticate the tracks and called him in as one of the 'experts'.

Except, he wasn't called in or he DECLINED.

I wonder why that would be then?
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Strange that Seth wasnt called but then they have this documentary now saying that Michael is on all the tracks so I guess that was enough for them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
It's the same situation with Hollywood Tonight, these songs can be better, they shouldn't be processed to the max, and Michael should be here promoting them. Reality is, Michael's gone, and these songs are being completed with a lack of care that Michael would usually bring to the table. Despite doing the best they can to turn these songs into releasable products, Michael has no final say, but there isn't really anything we can do about it.
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The difference between Hollywood Tonight and Monster is that with processing (album mix) or without processing (Throwback mix), Hollywood Tonight sounds like Michael.

Although being obviously incomplete, the vocal quality of HT is way much more superior than Monster. HT is free of any sampling of Michael's prior work to deceive people. The song has enough "releasable" Michael Jackson vocals. It fits the category of nearly complete work-in-progress material finished by a group of esteemed producers.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Did I say anything against you on the personal level or did I speak about the songs?
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I'm not trying to speak to you on a personal level, if that's what you've gathered from that sentence, I apologize. Let me be clear, being a linguistics teacher, doesn't mean someone should value your belief as a fact, based on your findings of pronunciation/etc. within certain recordings. Especially when your findings are based on linguistics and not from a musical standpoint, nor does it give you the right to push your opinion as fact. Simply put.


love is magical said:
The difference between Hollywood Tonight and Monster is that with processing (album mix) or without processing (Throwback mix), Hollywood Tonight sounds like Michael.

Although being obviously incomplete, the vocal quality of HT is way much more superior than Monster. HT is free of any sampling of Michael's prior work to deceive people. The song has enough "releasable" Michael Jackson vocals. It fits the category of nearly complete work-in-progress material finished by a group of esteemed producers.
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I ask, suppose the Hollywood Tonight demo, which Birchey posted, was the only recording the Estate had possession of, except, lets imagine this was a full length recording of Michael someone had recorded. And suppose they put it on a new album in it's current state, didn't tune it, process it, or change anything about the song, for the love of Michael and not the desire to have a hit record, would you be satisfied with that? Low quality, outside sounds and all, would you be satisfied with that demo on a retail release?
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Monster is Michael barely singing, all autotuned/melodyned to create a melody?
LOL
He even recorded background harmonies for that track... (if you believe it's him singing the song of course). It's fully complete musically, from lyrics, to the lead vocal, background harmonies and ad-libs.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
I'm not trying to speak to you on a personal level, if that's what you've gathered from that sentence, I apologize. Let me be clear, being a linguistics teacher, doesn't mean someone should value your belief as a fact, based on your findings of pronunciation/etc. within certain recordings. Especially when your findings are based on linguistics and not from a musical standpoint, nor does it give you the right to push your opinion as fact. Simply put.
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I did not use that argument in my post, so why even bringing it in? I never said that thanks to my profession I was holding the ultimate answer in my hands.

p.s. In my opinion I did not push my opinion to anyone, you felt it like that.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You don't have to say it, that was your implication. Your answer implies, that your belief is a fact, and we should all agree on it. Rather it's based on your linguistics findings or not, you implied just what I said you did.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
You don't have to say it, that was your implication. Your answer implies, that your belief is a fact, and we should all agree on it. Rather it's based on your linguistics findings or not, you implied just what I said you did.
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Well, from the beginning till the end, all your post is a pure misinterpretation on which you based your answer to my post.

Where exactly did I imply anything? Where exactly did I say that my belief is a fact? Where exactly did I say that you all should agree on?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Well, from the beginning till the end, all your post is a pure misinterpretation on which you based your answer to my post.

Where exactly did I imply anything? Where exactly did I say that my belief is a fact? Where exactly did I say that you all should agree on?
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"Except Hollywood Tonight is sung by Michael Jackson"

"Monster is sung by Michael Jackson, as much as Let Me Let Go"


^^Those were your responses, after I said the situation between the songs and Hollywood Tonight is similar, in the subject of expectations and that Monster is sung by Michael Jackson. You went completely out of your way, to again, dispute my opinion as being wrong, as if your answer is objective. Now, in what country would that not equal a person implying that their belief is a fact?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

a2z said:
If it really was a case of faking the news like you all think then someone would have sued, you honestly think Joe Jackson wouldn't be riding the legal corpse of MJs legacy like a deadmans skateboard all the way to court by now?
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Pentum said:
Well, they don't have the "proof that can hold up in court", do they, so why bother?
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"proof" isn't something that stops Joe. He has objected executors with no legal standing whatsoever, took his Murray case to federal court with no basis.

If there was any chance of win and money, Joe - Oxman combo would have taken it to court.

a2z said:
I know and agree but he:

a) Didn't know he was going to die and
b) Didn't know the leeches would use his reference tracks for retail

I view these recordings as scratchpads, you know yourself from studio work sometimes you just step in the booth and vibe but thats only work in progress, hell I've got reels of Jay Z mumbling incoherently in the booth as he paces a track in his head that later on became a number one hit.

If he'd died that night theres no way the studio would have used the mumble mumble tracks on retail but all seems fair in life and death in the case of MJ.
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I wouldn't limit it to MJ.

Beatles used Lennon vocals that he left on a tape recorder - and yes a part of Beatles fans went ballistic about that.

2 posthumous releases of Notorious B.I.G was mainly from the verses that he recorded but not used for his released songs turned into new songs as duets - it was basically discarded verses / unreleased unfinished demos / ideas he recorded turned into new songs with the help of other artists.

Some people see this as an unfair treatment being done so to MJ however it' simply the way of posthumous releases regardless of who the artist is. (and if they could use it they would release Jay Z's mumblings one day)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
"Except Hollywood Tonight is sung by Michael Jackson"

"Monster is sung by Michael Jackson, as much as Let Me Let Go"


^^Those were your responses, after I said the situation between the songs and Hollywood Tonight is similar, in the subject of expectations and that Monster is sung by Michael Jackson. You went completely out of your way, to again, dispute my opinion as being wrong, as if your answer is objective. Now, in what country would that not equal a person implying that their belief is a fact?
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I was stating my opinion, and I did not imply that you should agree on or that my opinion was based on linguistics whatsoever.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Stating an opinion is fine, what YOU did, was state YOUR opinion while saying mine was wrong. Which then turns your opinion, into an implication of fact.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
I ask, suppose the Hollywood Tonight demo, which Birchey posted, was the only recording the Estate had possession of, except, lets imagine this was a full length recording of Michael someone had recorded. And suppose they put it on a new album in it's current state, didn't tune it, process it, or change anything about the song, for the love of Michael and not the desire to have a hit record, would you be satisfied with that? Low quality, outside sounds and all, would you be satisfied with that demo on a retail release?
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Then, IN MY OPINION, don't release any unreleased material at all. If they don't have enough releasable materials, then stick with what they have and don't make something up out of nothing.

I mentioned previously that Hollywood Tonight is incomplete but still listenable. The quality is not prestine, but still listenable. TWYLM, BoJ, Another Day, BTM and MTS are more than listenable. So, the Estate do have enough unreleased materials to fill up an album. The same time the album was released, BG, STTR, DYKWYCA were leaked. How about APWNN? They have more than enough to fill up a decent, no actually great, album. Instead, they chose to spread their eggs and dilute the quality with some manipulated tracks.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
Stating an opinion is fine, what YOU did, was state YOUR opinion while saying mine was wrong. Which then turns your opinion, into an implication of fact.
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Where did I say that your opinion was wrong?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
So, how does it make sense to say the half-baked low quality demos are better than the final products on Invincible?

Sonically speaking, Breaking News is not stronger.

Lyrically speaking, Breaking News is not stronger.

Vocally speaking, Breaking News is not stronger.

So, in what sense is Breaking News a stronger song?

I've never focused on why you like Breaking News, have I? I respect your preference.

What I have focused on is the statement you made on Michael's past works. I want to know why you think Be Not Always, D.S. and The Lost Children are mediocre. What make the songs mediocre? The vocal delivery? The production? The lyrics? What exactly?
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BN: vocals, lyrics are not good but musically, melody, arrangement are not bad.

BN instrumentals is great.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
Lol, really?
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Didn't you equal Hollywood Tonight with the Cascio songs? Which, in other words, you stated something as a fact by going against my opinion, which is that Hollywood Tonight cannot be equalled to the Cascio tracks.

So why do you consider that I force my opinion on others right after you did exactly the same?

Here is what you said:

"It's the same situation with Hollywood Tonight, these songs can be better, they shouldn't be processed to the max,"

To me, this is stating your opinion as a fact.
 
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