Michael - The Great Album Debate

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I wouldn't limit it to MJ.

Beatles used Lennon vocals that he left on a tape recorder - and yes a part of Beatles fans went ballistic about that.

2 posthumous releases of Notorious B.I.G was mainly from the verses that he recorded but not used for his released songs turned into new songs as duets - it was basically discarded verses / unreleased unfinished demos turned into new songs with the help of other artists.

Some people see this as an unfair treatment being done so to MJ however it' simply the way of posthumous releases regardless of who the artist is. (and if they could use it they would release Jay Z's mumblings one day)

Ivy, I understand the nature of posthumous release. However, it still doesn't justify what Sony and the Estate did with the album. The legacy of Michael Jacksom is so extraordinary that it comes once in many many generations. It's a legacy that worths the extra fiduciary care and respect.

All along, the doubters are being called "moaners" and "whinners" who complain about everything and hate the Estate. But, how am I supposed to love the Estate for this disrespectful money grab job?

Even if the Cascio tracks are not fake, they are just tracks with may be 10% 2007 MJ vocals, 20% 1990's MJ vocals and 70% backing vocals with tons and tons of melodyne and processing. They are not genuine Michael Jackson songs by any means.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Indeed, the music on Breaking News is badass. Sonically, it's brilliant. Lyrically, it's not the best but it doesn't make me cringe. The whole song together is very nice, in my opinion.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Didn't you equal Hollywood Tonight with the Cascio songs? Which, in other words, you stated something as a fact by going against my opinion, which is that Hollywood Tonight cannot be equalled to the Cascio tracks.

So why do you consider that I force my opinion on others right after you did exactly the same?

I didn't say anything about the vocals on Hollywood Tonight, you went out of your way to say "except Hollywood Tonight is sung by Michael Jackson", when I didn't say anything about who sings either song. Which I responded by saying "so is Monster", difference is, I didn't go out of my way to tell you you were wrong and that Michael doesn't sing Hollywood Tonight. I didn't even mention your feelings towards Monster or rather they were wrong or not, for whatever reason, I just responded when confronted on the issue.

There's a large difference in telling someone "I respect your opinion, but I don't believe Michael sings that song" and "Monster is sung by Michael Jackson, as much as Let Me Let Go".


Sorry dude, but this effort to dabble and rearrange your own words, doesn't change that you implied your belief was a fact.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Indeed, the music on Breaking News is badass. Sonically, it's brilliant. Lyrically, it's not the best but it doesn't make me cringe. The whole song together is very nice, in my opinion.

As brilliant as music from a video game from the 80s.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I didn't say anything about the vocals on Hollywood Tonight, you went out of your way to say "except Hollywood Tonight is sung by Michael Jackson", when I didn't say anything about who sings either song. Which I responded by saying "so is Monster", difference is, I didn't go out of my way to tell you you were wrong and that Michael doesn't sing Hollywood Tonight. I didn't even mention your feelings towards Monster or rather they were wrong or not, for whatever reason, I just responded when confronted on the issue.

There's a large difference in telling someone "I respect your opinion, but I don't believe Michael sings that song" and "Monster is sung by Michael Jackson, as much as Let Me Let Go".

Read my edited post and you'll see what you had said.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I personally think video game music, especially from the 80s, are among the best composed ever. Sorry, the gamer in me just came out briefly.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I didn't say anything about the vocals on Hollywood Tonight, you went out of your way to say "except Hollywood Tonight is sung by Michael Jackson", when I didn't say anything about who sings either song. Which I responded by saying "so is Monster", difference is, I didn't go out of my way to tell you you were wrong and that Michael doesn't sing Hollywood Tonight. I didn't even mention your feelings towards Monster or rather they were wrong or not, for whatever reason, I just responded when confronted on the issue.

There's a large difference in telling someone "I respect your opinion, but I don't believe Michael sings that song" and "Monster is sung by Michael Jackson, as much as Let Me Let Go".


Sorry dude, but this effort to dabble and rearrange your own words, doesn't change that you implied your belief was a fact.

Lecturing me on respect and calling me "dude" without being your friend is quite funny.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I personally think video game music, especially from the 80s, are among the best composed ever. Sorry, the gamer in me just came out briefly.

You see, parallelly to that music from the video games from the 80s, Michael comoposed songs such as Billie Jean and Beat it.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Lecturing me on respect and calling me "dude" without being your friend is quite funny.

I thought we were all friends here, in one form or another? It's even funnier that you seem to be offended over a "friend" tag just because of a difference of opinion.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I thought we were all friends here, in one form or another? It's even funnier that you seem to be offended over a "friend" tag just because of a difference of opinion.

Well I never heard friends lecturing friends on so called respect, while forcing their opinion as a fact in the first place.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ivy, I understand the nature of posthumous release. However, it still doesn't justify what Sony and the Estate did with the album. The legacy of Michael Jacksom is so extraordinary that it comes once in many many generations. It's a legacy that worths the extra fiduciary care and respect.

All along, the doubters are being called "moaners" and "whinners" who complain about everything and hate the Estate. But, how am I supposed to love the Estate for this disrespectful money grab job?

you know what the same argument is being made by a portion of fans of Beatles, Notorious BIG and Tupac Shakur etc etc.

Every estate has 2 choices not to release anything or release something.

Most goes with releasing something and why wouldn't they? Demand brings sales, it makes the artists live on and fans feel like their idols isn't lost.

So Mj Estate isn't the evil one in this reality. (and honestly look around can you see anyone -including family- that isn't using Michael's death as a money grab?)

It's also a fact that as the artist is no longer alive and contributing to the artistic process , his touch, his genius, his vision isn't in the released albums. So this is not a "Michael Jackson Album", It's a "Posthumous Michael Jackson" album.

Fans are left with 2 choices IMO. Either accept a "posthumous" album and do not expect / compare it to a "MJ Album" and enjoy as much as you can OR limit yourself to "MJ albums" to spare yourself this disappointment / anger / negativity.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But the only one forcing an opinion was you, in your own mind, you didn't...Fine.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But the only one forcing an opinion was you, in your own mind, you didn't...Fine.

How do you call this:

"It's the same situation with Hollywood Tonight, these songs can be better, they shouldn't be processed to the max,"


Giving an opinion or stating a fact?

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

How do you call this:

"It's the same situation with Hollywood Tonight, these songs can be better, they shouldn't be processed to the max,"


Giving an opinion or stating a fact?

It's a factual statement when in regards to fan expectations, not the vocals or who sings the songs, something I never mentioned in that post.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's a factual statement when in regards to fan expectations, not the vocals or who sings the songs, something I never mentioned in that post.

Just as you took the freedom to interpret what I implied, I can freely interpret and say that you implied that you equalled Hollywood Tonight with the Cascio songs and forced them on to others as a fact, which is not. On top of that you give directions saying what would be better! This latter based on what? On your profession? (just as you suggested that I was basing my arguments on my profession, I suppose I can say that you were basing your arguments on your proefession). Sorry Annie, but forcing facts onto others --you started it and now you don't accept that people, like me, react.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I can't stand the negativity and ignorance of this thread anymore.

I am done with this controversy for now.

I will make my own opinion entirely with my own heart and wisdom and stop listening to some of the ridiculous things said here. It's just not doing anything good for my soul to be around the bad vibes. I want to enjoy this album in peace.

Goodbye everyone, see you in other threads!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I can't stand the negativity and ignorance of this thread anymore.

I am done with this controversy for now.

I will make my own opinion entirely with my own heart and wisdom and stop listening to some of the ridiculous things said here. It's just not doing anything good for my soul to be around the bad vibes. I want to enjoy this album in peace.

Goodbye everyone, see you in other threads!

See you tomorrow.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@Bumper, true, but a lot of great video game melodies were composed in the 80s, like the Super Mario Bros. theme, and the ending theme to a game called "Splatterhouse", and the entire series of "Mega Man" games had stellar songs. I'll post a few links:

Splatterhouse ending theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvdVOMAVhqs&feature=related

Mega Man Fire Man theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEsMVzLRWqo

Blaster Master Area 7 theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwMU9zkflYc

Mega Man 2 Wily Stage 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKtYCcMWT4

I don't know why I've suddenly gone on a gaming tangent, but all of the musical melodies I've shown here was created in the 80s.

... Yeah, sorry. My inner-gamer gets the better of me, sometimes.

See you, Aniram!

 

[Willy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The controversy itself pretty much proves that the Cascio songs are fake. If they were real no one would have questioned them. It's as simple as that.
If the songs differs so much from the previous real songs, in terms of voice, especially when they come from a third-party source and the alleged singer is dead then the simplest answer is that they are not genuine and the simplest answer is most likely the right one. Thats what the common sense should be telling you. Well, at least thats what mine is telling me.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@Bumper, true, but a lot of great video game melodies were composed in the 80s, like the Super Mario Bros. theme, and the ending theme to a game called "Splatterhouse", and the entire series of "Mega Man" games had stellar songs. I'll post a few links:

Splatterhouse ending theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvdVOMAVhqs&feature=related

Mega Man Fire Man theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEsMVzLRWqo

Blaster Master Area 7 theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwMU9zkflYc

Mega Man 2 Wily Stage 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKtYCcMWT4

I don't know why I've suddenly gone on a gaming tangent, but all of the musical melodies I've shown here was created in the 80s.

... Yeah, sorry. My inner-gamer gets the better of me, sometimes.

See you, Aniram!

So those musics are as good as MJ's compositions? Wow, no doubt some people find the Cascio songs great.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yes, I don't see any 472 page threads on why HT etc. are fake.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I wouldn't say as great, but they are definitely iconic. Keep in mind, several composers worked on these games, they are embedded into my very soul because the music of the game helps make the game more enjoyable. I ask you to at least listen to the first minute of each of those tracks and get back to me on your thoughts.

Keep in mind, some songs like the Super Mario Bros. and Legend of Zelda themes are probably equally as well known as the most iconic stuff MJ has made. It's a great medium for music.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yes, I don't see any 472 page threads on why HT etc. are fake.

Curiously the non-doubters tried to drag the doubters into the controversy on Hollywood Tonight, but they never succeeded to trigger a debate as doubters do not doubt Hollywood Tonight for a second.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

See you tomorrow.

Thanks, Bumper. I won't be back any time soon.

This is a decision I've been having a tough time making for quite a while now as I have really grown fond of a lot of the people in this thread and the discussions I've been a part of, but there are a select few highly negative people that I just cannot read their bullshit anymore. They're just way too insulting of other people's opinions and I'm sick of it. I don't like being a part of a thread where people are talking down to others, so I'm leaving.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'm basically staying for those reasons, Aniram. I'll probably leave eventually, I'm basically riding this out to have some great discussions.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Sorry for the double post, guys.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The controversy itself pretty much proves that the Cascio songs are fake. If they were real no one would have questioned them. It's as simple as that.
If the songs differs so much from the previous real songs, in terms of voice, especially when they come from a third-party source and the alleged singer is dead then the simplest answer is that they are not genuine and the simplest answer is most likely the right one. Thats what the common sense should be telling you. Well, at least thats what mine is telling me.

You can't really say that as the situation has never occurred before. Others have said this, and it is getting old, but I'm certain we'd be having this same discussion if 2000 Watts replaced one of the songs on the Michael album. Just because he isn't here to represent himself, and sounds different, doesn't mean the songs are "fake".

]Just as you took the freedom to interpret what I implied, I can freely interpret and say that you implied that you equalled Hollywood Tonight with the Cascio songs and forced them on to others as a fact, which is not. On top of that you give directions saying what would be better! This latter based on what? On your profession? (just as you suggested that I was basing my arguments on my profession, I suppose I can say that you were basing your arguments on your proefession). Sorry Annie, but forcing facts onto others --you started it and now you don't accept that people, like me, react.

But I never said any of that, whereas your forcing of opinions is documented in your own post. I said the situation is similar, because simply put, people have expectations of what should be done with Michael's music, and when that demand isn't met, they voice their concern, some better than others. I said these songs can be better, yes, that's what I said, but how is that not an "educated guess" when this thread is full of people saying how bad the songs are? Not just because of the vocals but the overall composition. So how am I forcing my opinion that the songs can be better, as a fact, when a large portion of this thread, including you, has already made similar statements?

Honestly, I'm trying to understand what you're getting at with this whole thing. But I'm finding it rather difficult, unfortunately.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^Oh Please! The 2000 Watts excuse again?! Seriously? 2000 Watts sounds, and is 100% Michael Jackson...

 

[Willy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You can't really say that as the situation has never occurred before. Others have said this, and it is getting old, but I'm certain we'd be having this same discussion if 2000 Watts replaced one of the songs on the Michael album. Just because he isn't here to represent himself, and sounds different, doesn't mean the songs are "fake".

The 2000Watts thing again. To be honest, I don't know what was the overall fan reaction on that song as I had no internet connection back then but I somewhat doubt that a large portion of the fanbase started to question the authenticity of a Michael Jackson song that he had just released himself. I know I never did, I mean why would I do that. It's just one unusual song, you pitch it up a bit and you get MJ we all know. You really cannot compare it to the five Cascio songs we had the "privilege" to hear.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

you know what the same argument is being made by a portion of fans of Beatles, Notorious BIG and Tupac Shakur etc etc.

Every estate has 2 choices not to release anything or release something.

Most goes with releasing something and why wouldn't they? Demand brings sales, it makes the artists live on and fans feel like their idols isn't lost.

So Mj Estate isn't the evil one in this reality. (and honestly look around can you see anyone -including family- that isn't using Michael's death as a money grab?)

It's also a fact that as the artist is no longer alive and contributing to the artistic process , his touch, his genius, his vision isn't in the released albums. So this is not a "Michael Jackson Album", It's a "Posthumous Michael Jackson" album.

Fans are left with 2 choices IMO. Either accept a "posthumous" album and do not expect / compare it to a "MJ Album" and enjoy as much as you can OR limit yourself to "MJ albums" to spare yourself this disappointment / anger / negativity.

Ivy, you don't get my point completely. Or, I didn't express myself cleary. I'm not opposing any posthumous release. I actually accept the Michael album and still am able to be amazed by Michael's past iconic catalog. Not a day that goes by that I don't find myself enjoying songs I have heard thousands times.

Am I disappointed by the Cascio tracks? Yes. Am I angry and being negative. I don't thinks so. Frustrated yes. I hope I'm somewhat objective too.

I don't know enough about John Lennon, Notorius B.I.G. and Tupac to offer my opinion on their posthumous releases. As for Michael's music, I think I have heard enough to have an opinion.

I love BoJ, BTM and MTS. Three songs released posthumously without Michael's final touch and approval. But, why I just can't accept the Cascio tracks is really because of the quality. As I mentioned earlier, I feel they attempted to make something out of nothing. All they had are some rough demos or guide vocals in low quality. They were nowhere near releasable condition as evidenced by the heavy processing, blatant cut-and-paste parts and sampling.

Releasing albums means generating revenue which I totally support. However, finding a right balance is equally or even more important.

Lastly, I didn't say the Estate is the evil party. Did I? I don't love the way they handle this album. But, I did mention in other thread that I appreciate the way they handle other business and financial matters.

I see the word "negativity" being used all the time. Is expressing an unfavorable opinion a negative act? Can we institue a dose of objectivity back?

I follow Janet's tour thread. I see people calling her fat or her wardrobe ugly. It seems no one is offended by the comments. However, when some of us said we are not impressed with the HT video or the album, which I think is not off the wall comments, people are upset and say we are being negative or we are complaining too much.

Is enjoying as much as we can means blindly accepting everything thrown to us?