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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
I

According to your logic, E' Cass looks like MJ, he's indeed MJ. :scratch:
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No, "you're making it all wrong". The only way what I said earlier would apply to, say, E Casanova, is if there was the belief of a hoax regarding E Casanova, and if he was featured on an official MJ product as the real MJ, etc.

But I see some people are starting to admit "well of course the Cascio tracks sound to some degree like MJ". So right then and there, we're isolating the doubters who, against all logic, still claim that the Cascio tracks sound NOTHING like MJ.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
I can't get this to work, but if this is just some excerpt from BN, it's not like I haven't heard that song a thousand times now.

Please just answer my post, which gives you a simple alternative between two choices, one of which you must logically choose.
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But, there is a serious flaw in your logic. According to your logic, if the songs sound like MJ, they are MJ's. This is not true.

I just used E'Cass as an example. He looked like MJ. As a matter of fact, he's good enough to fool many fans and even MJ's family, is he MJ?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
MJ has written a lot of mediocre songs. "Be Not Always". "The Lost Children". "D.S." Besides, chances are he didn't write any of the Cascio tracks : they were written by Cascio and Porte. Just like MJ didn't write any of the Jerkins material on Invincible.

And Breaking News is better than a lot of the stuff on Invincible.
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Do you think those songs are mediocre because you don't like them? My point is Michael Jackson wasn't capable of writing mediocre music. Even if a given song may not be as strong as another, or if you don't really like the song (such as Privacy, for me), it doesn't mean it's mediocre. He isn't considered the greatest entertainer that ever lived if he's written 'a lot of mediocre songs'

Be Not Always, mediocre? I don't agree with you, but ok :scratch:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Who do they sound like then? Bob Dylan? Tom Waits? Rachelle Black? Elvis Presley? Jermaine Jackson?

Or maybe you'll say they sound like Jason Malachi. But Malachi is an MJ impersonator, who sounds a lot like MJ. So if the Cascio tracks sound like JM, then it implies as a matter of necessity that they sound like MJ also.

Basically, you have only two choices :

1- either you keep on asserting that the Cascio tracks sound nothing like MJ, in which case you have to explain how they could fool anyone into including or accepting them on an official MJ album, and you also have to explain how they could possibly sound like an MJ-soundalike without sounding a lot like the actual MJ (good luck with all of that)
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They don't sound like Michael Jackson. How they could fool anyone into thinking it's Michael Jackson? Simple - they don't know MJ's voice or/and they don't know Jason's voice.

They sound like Jason Malachi, which to me, doesn't sound like Michael Jackson. Why? I don't know. Maybe because I used to listen to his music before all of this and knows his voice very, very well.

By the way, "Be Not Always" medicore? What on earth? Breaking News BETTER than A LOT of stuff on Invincible? Geezus...

Edit: Typo...
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
MJ has written a lot of mediocre songs. "Be Not Always". "The Lost Children". "D.S." Besides, chances are he didn't write any of the Cascio tracks : they were written by Cascio and Porte. Just like MJ didn't write any of the Jerkins material on Invincible.

And Breaking News is better than a lot of the stuff on Invincible.
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I understand music is subjective. I do want to have a disucssion with you. Could you please explain why you think Be Not Always, The Lost Children and D.S. are mediocre? I agree these three songs are not the all-time-Michael-Jackson classics; nevertheless, all three of them are still outstanding by pop music standards. All of the above three songs are songs only Michael Jackson can make them work.

Be Not Always was beautifully sung. I was lost once when I listened the song during my morning commute. I almost forgot to get off the train because I was so mesmerized.

Who can write a pop/rock song about a district attorney seeking vendetta and keep chanting "Tom Sneddon is a cold man" in the chorus like Michael Jackson? The song is not mediocre at all. The production of the song is excellent. Slash guitar solo is great.

The Lost Children is written from Michael's heart. It's heartfelt and sinere. It's simple and beautiful. It may not be your cup of tea. However, it's not mediocre. It's beautifully sung.

I strongly disagree that Breaking News is better than most of the songs in Invincible. The vocal quality alone makes Breaking News the worst song that is released in Michael's name. You don't need to like all songs in Invincible. But, you cannot say the vocals on Invincible are mediocre. It's not even subjective. The vocals on ALL SONGS in Invincible are strong. Period. The album showcases Michael's unparalleled ability and talent as a vocalist.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
MJ has written a lot of mediocre songs. "Be Not Always". "The Lost Children". "D.S." Besides, chances are he didn't write any of the Cascio tracks : they were written by Cascio and Porte. Just like MJ didn't write any of the Jerkins material on Invincible.

And Breaking News is better than a lot of the stuff on Invincible.
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You know something, your obsession with Michael not writting anything on Invisible is just irritating dude.?re you trying to prove something by bringing it in every thread? We got it, for some reason you think he didn't writte anything on Invisible.Get over it already and move on with you life.

"Be not Always" a mediocre song?Compare to the masterpiece "Breaking News" i guess right. This is an additional reason why someone should never take your opinion seriously.

Now, i suggest to you to go and listen to BN since you like it so much.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
Do you think those songs are mediocre because you don't like them? My point is Michael Jackson wasn't capable of writing mediocre music. Even if a given song may not be as strong as another, or if you don't really like the song (such as Privacy, for me), it doesn't mean it's mediocre. He isn't considered the greatest entertainer that ever lived if he's written 'a lot of mediocre songs'

Be Not Always, mediocre? I don't agree with you, but ok :scratch:
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Well, maybe you're such an uber-fan that you think EVERYTHING he's ever done is great, but most people would disagree with you. I mean, I like the Beatles too, but even they released some crap.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
No, "you're making it all wrong". The only way what I said earlier would apply to, say, E Casanova, is if there was the belief of a hoax regarding E Casanova, and if he was featured on an official MJ product as the real MJ, etc.

But I see some people are starting to admit "well of course the Cascio tracks sound to some degree like MJ". So right then and there, we're isolating the doubters who, against all logic, still claim that the Cascio tracks sound NOTHING like MJ.
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Don't say I'm making it all wrong when your logic simply implies if the songs sound like MJ, they must be MJ's.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
They don't sound like Michael Jackson. How they could fool anyone into thinking it's Michael Jackson? Simple - they don't know MJ's voice or/and they don't know Jason's voice.

-So all of those people who WORKED with MJ -- Greg Phillinganes, Bruce Swedien, Tricky Stewart, etc. who are mentionned in the Estate's statement -- don't know MJ's voice? All those hundreds of thousands of MJ fans who are now jamming to Monster or Breaking News don't know MJ's voice? All those music reviewers from all of the major media outlets don't know MJ's voice?

They sound like Jason Malachi, which to me, doesn't sound like Michael Jackson. Why? I don't know.

-So Jason Malachi, whom you and I and everybody else on the Internet know about ONLY because he's a MJ soundalike, doesn't sound like MJ? So you're saying JM is NOT a MJ soundalike? Then why is he known at all? The only reason we even know who he is is BECAUSE he's a MJ soundalike.

By the way, "Be Not Always" medicore? What on earth? Breaking News BETTER than A LOT of stuff on Invincible? Geezus...

-That's ultimately subjective, so let's not focus on whether this or that is better than this or that. What is NOT subjective is the logic I have explained in my previous posts today.
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please see my comments as part of the quoted text above
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
MJ has written a lot of mediocre songs. "Be Not Always". "The Lost Children". "D.S." Besides, chances are he didn't write any of the Cascio tracks : they were written by Cascio and Porte. Just like MJ didn't write any of the Jerkins material on Invincible.

And Breaking News is better than a lot of the stuff on Invincible.
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:shock::shock::shock:
Before reading some post I need to take some Xanax and after reading them, some Prozac.

I would like to hear your entire list with Michael's mediocre songs. (a lot?!!!!!)
Just being curious!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Wow - I still can't get over the fact that y'all think All I Need isn't MJ.

I've been listening to this non stop for the past few and I'm well impressed.

They should have got this fake MJ to resing Monster.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Well, maybe you're such an uber-fan that you think EVERYTHING he's ever done is great, but most people would disagree with you.
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Well, if you say Michael Jackson has 'written a lot of mediocre songs', most people would disagree with you. At least those who appreciate his unattainable level of artistry ;)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
I strongly disagree that Breaking News is better than most of the songs in Invincible. The vocal quality alone makes Breaking News the worst song that is released in Michael's name. You don't need to like all songs in Invincible. But, you cannot say the vocals on Invincible are mediocre. It's not even subjective. The vocals on ALL SONGS in Invincible are strong. Period. The album showcases Michael's unparalleled ability and talent as a vocalist.
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Whether you or I like a song or not is entirely subjective, so let's not focus on that.

I do agree the vocals on Invincible are strong, as they should be : these are final takes, meant for release. The Cascio tracks are unprofessional demos or guide vocals, recorded almost for fun/for future considerations. You can't expect the vocals to be as strong on such recordings.

Besides, I still hold that the vocals on the Cascio ballads, KYHU and AIN, are pretty good. Only on the Teddy Riley-produced stuff are the vocals overly processed.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Well, maybe you're such an uber-fan that you think EVERYTHING he's ever done is great, but most people would disagree with you. I mean, I like the Beatles too, but even they released some crap.
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Not everything Michael has done is great. However, he has never ever released craps or mediocre songs. He has never ever half ass-ed anything in his life. Actually, one of the criticism on Michael's professional work is that he's too much a perfectionist.

You totally ignore the quality of vocals. You may enjoy Breaking News more than Privacy. Fine. However, to say Breaking News is a better song is not objective whatsoever. The vocals on Breaking News are so stacked. The song is overproduced and features more background vocals than the questionable lead vocals. It's indeed a mediocre pop song.

Privacy, on the other hand, features strong rock vocals from Michael and another great guitar solo from Slash. Nothing is mediocre about it.

If you enjoy Breaking News more, fine. Some people do enjoy Britney Spears more so than Stevie Wonder. But, that doesn't mean Toxic is a better song than Superstition.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Only on the Teddy Riley-produced stuff are the vocals overly processed.
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I agree with this. This includes Hollywood Tonight and makes the 'Cascio songs are fake'- stance all the less probable. Keep Your Head Up sounds very good and so does All I Need. Production makes all the difference it seems.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Whether you or I like a song or not is entirely subjective, so let's not focus on that.

I do agree the vocals on Invincible are strong, as they should be : these are final takes, meant for release. The Cascio tracks are unprofessional demos or guide vocals, recorded almost for fun/for future considerations. You can't expect the vocals to be as strong on such recordings.

Besides, I still hold that the vocals on the Cascio ballads, KYHU and AIN, are pretty good. Only on the Teddy Riley-produced stuff are the vocals overly processed.
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So, how does it make sense to say the half-baked low quality demos are better than the final products on Invincible?

Sonically speaking, Breaking News is not stronger.

Lyrically speaking, Breaking News is not stronger.

Vocally speaking, Breaking News is not stronger.

So, in what sense is Breaking News a stronger song?

I've never focused on why you like Breaking News, have I? I respect your preference.

What I have focused on is the statement you made on Michael's past works. I want to know why you think Be Not Always, D.S. and The Lost Children are mediocre. What make the songs mediocre? The vocal delivery? The production? The lyrics? What exactly?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

They don't sound like Michael Jackson. How they could fool anyone into thinking it's Michael Jackson? Simple - they don't know MJ's voice or/and they don't know Jason's voice.

So all of those people who WORKED with MJ -- Greg Phillinganes, Bruce Swedien, Tricky Stewart, etc. who are mentionned in the Estate's statement -- don't know MJ's voice? All those hundreds of thousands of MJ fans who are now jamming to Monster or Breaking News don't know MJ's voice? All those music reviewers from all of the major media outlets don't know MJ's voice?

You're forgetting other people like Corey Rooney, Rodney Jerkins, Will.I.Am and Michael's OWN FAMILY. Still, being a producer and have been working with MJ doesn't mean they know Michael's voice more than a fan who has been listening to Michael every single day for many, many years. Because that's something I doubt any of the producers have done.

Music reviewers - they are music reviewers, it doesn't mean they know MJ's voice well.

They sound like Jason Malachi, which to me, doesn't sound like Michael Jackson. Why? I don't know.

So Jason Malachi, whom you and I and everybody else on the Internet know about ONLY because he's a MJ soundalike, doesn't sound like MJ? So you're saying JM is NOT a MJ soundalike? Then why is he known at all? The only reason we even know who he is is BECAUSE he's a MJ soundalike.

I bumped into a Jason Malachi video on Youtube where it said it was Michael. Does this mean I first time heard about Jason because he's a MJ soundalike? No, it means that I was fooled with a title.
He may be a soundalike to you, but he's not to me, so yes, I am saying he is not an MJ soundalike.
Why is he known at all? He has released two studio albums, surely some people must've known him.

By the way, "Be Not Always" medicore? What on earth? Breaking News BETTER than A LOT of stuff on Invincible? Geezus...

That's ultimately subjective, so let's not focus on whether this or that is better than this or that. What is NOT subjective is the logic I have explained in my previous posts today.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Well, maybe you're such an uber-fan that you think EVERYTHING he's ever done is great, but most people would disagree with you. I mean, I like the Beatles too, but even they released some crap.
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There are a lot of fans who consider everything Michael did is great.Me, I'm one of them.You may call me fanatik, but for me everything he ever did is great.I'm not good in to dissect, analyze,criticize every song, arrangement etc. and I don't care about this stuff but I can tell by the way he makes me feel when I listen to his music.
That kind of overwhelming emotions and feelings don't come from nowhere.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Damn, a lot has happened since I've been at soul-crushing school, with people outside of my class treating me as a slave and trying to make me dance and sing for them, while making offensive comments about MJ.

I think that "Breaking News", while having poor guide vocals, has a nice melody and instrumentation. It's nice to see his unfinished work, thought Teddy did a big hack-and-slash job to fill the song out more. The same basically goes the same for all Teddy tracks.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
Privacy, on the other hand, features strong rock vocals from Michael and another great guitar solo from Slash. Nothing is mediocre about it.
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The melody is awful. Where's the hook in that song? And Slash doesn't play on it; he was replaced at the last minute by the guitarist who's listed in the booklet. But MJ still shouts "Slash!" because they never bothered to change that. Which shows MJ wasn't always as much of a perfectionist as we like to think.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
I've never focused on why you like Breaking News, have I? I respect your preference.

What I have focused on is the statement you made on Michael's past works. I want to know why you think Be Not Always, D.S. and The Lost Children are mediocre. What make the songs mediocre? The vocal delivery? The production? The lyrics? What exactly?
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Well, it's all subjective of course, but it all comes down, for me, to hooks. "Breaking News" is not a strong song, of course, but it has something resembling a hook in the chorus, and it's fast-paced, with a good rhythm.

As for the 3 other songs I mentioned, they're weak in the melody department.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Jesta said:
Damn, a lot has happened since I've been at soul-crushing school, with people outside of my class treating me as a slave and trying to make me dance and sing for them, while making offensive comments about MJ.

I think that "Breaking News", while having poor guide vocals, has a nice melody and instrumentation. It's nice to see his unfinished work, thought Teddy did a big hack-and-slash job to fill the song out more. The same basically goes the same for all Teddy tracks.
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First, stay strong and ignore those bullies. Things will get better.

This is the kind of post I understand and appreicate because you explain why you like Breaking News without downplaying Michael's previous works.

I also agree Breaking News has nice melody.

I'm not going to disagree with people who say they enjoy Breaking News more than Invincible. However, to say Breaking News is better than most of the stuff in Invincible is what I strongly disagree with.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thanks. I had to leave for a few minutes to calm down and try to block them out. But these people were in the year below me and walked into the classroom just to torment me!

I really couldn't say that "Breaking News" and any tracks from the new album are better than MJ's previous works because they're all in a different (and lesser) league. Sure, the tracks recall to Michael's previous work, like "Tabloid Junkie", but I wouldn't say it's better than it, it's hard for me to decide what's my favourite in MJ's song "categories".
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
The melody is awful. Where's the hook in that song? And Slash doesn't play on it; he was replaced at the last minute by the guitarist who's listed in the booklet. But MJ still shouts "Slash!" because they never bothered to change that. Which shows MJ wasn't always as much of a perfectionist as we like to think.
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The melody of Privacy is not fast-paced danceable like the one of Breaking News. Instead, it's dark and heavy. Michael was begging for privacy. He's telling a sad and tragic story of Princess Diana's death. There is a hook - "I need my privacy.. Yeah Yeah... Get away from me..."

Melody aside, the vocal delivery is excellent. I don't know Slash didn't play on it. That doesn't mean the guitar solo is crap.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Well, it's all subjective of course, but it all comes down, for me, to hooks. "Breaking News" is not a strong song, of course, but it has something resembling a hook in the chorus, and it's fast-paced, with a good rhythm.

As for the 3 other songs I mentioned, they're weak in the melody department.
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Thanks for your explanation.

However, Be Not Always and The Lost Children are ballads. They are not supposed to have a strong danceable hook or fast-paced. I think the songs do have good rhytmic melody. Again, melody aside, the vocal deliveries are excellent. The way Michael conveyed emotions is out of this world. None of these songs is poorly produced mediocre track. They just don't have the type of melody that you prefer.

If you sit back and listen the songs with your eyes closed and let Michael's voice speak to you, can you still write the songs off as some mediocre pop songs. Michael Jackson's voice alone is not mediocre. His voice alone is quality.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have to ask, have any of you actually had your school/work disrupted by MJ haters, as in deliberately and purposefully stopping you from working just to make you feel bad? An hour of precious time working for my GCSE wasted by these people because my group started leaving afterward, and I stuck around to try and make use of the time.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
MJ has written a lot of mediocre songs. "Be Not Always". "The Lost Children". "D.S." Besides, chances are he didn't write any of the Cascio tracks : they were written by Cascio and Porte. Just like MJ didn't write any of the Jerkins material on Invincible.

And Breaking News is better than a lot of the stuff on Invincible.
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You wanna some cheap logic? Here it is.

1. Many non-MJ fans say that MJ has written a lot of mediocre songs.
2. You said that MJ has written a lot of mediocre songs.
3. Thus it means that you are a non-MJ fan.
4. Non-MJ fans don't know MJ's voice very well so they can easily be fooled.
5. As you are a non MJ-fan based upon the fact that you just admitted that MJ had written a lot of mediocre songs, you don't know MJ's voice that good, thus you've been fooled by an impostor.


p.s. "Be Not Always" mediocre? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, even non-MJ fans (except you and several others) like that song for its classical touch.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

When I look at the Mona Lisa, I see a masterpiece. Why? Because those who know about art agree that it is a masterpiece. I know nothing about art but I still see a masterpiece.

Music is only subjective to a point. Billie Jean may not be to someone's particular taste in music, but they would still agree it was a work of genius.

It is a fact that some of Michael's songs are much better than others. Nobody is infallible. You may not like Bob Dylan's voice or style of music, but nobody can deny that he is one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And anyone who has an expert knowledge of music would agree. But even he has released some crap over the years.

What makes Michael a genius is the fact that SO many ideas flow out of him. Not the fact that they're all great. Because they're not.

And not to get into another Invincible argument, but great vocals do not a great song make.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
. His voice alone is quality.
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With this controversy we forget that before all it was THE VOICE.


"There are so many aspects of MJ that lit up the world, but at the heart of the pop phenomenon was a simple instrument expertly employed THE VOICE.And what of voice it is, an instrument every bit the equivalent of a Stradivarius:exquisite, distinctive, rare.It never get lost in the mix of his records."
 
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