Michael - The Great Album Debate

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Premix is a mixdown of a track before being finalised and released on a retail album.

Like a demo you mean?

 

[Korgnex]

You cannot drag my opinion into Herbert Grönmeyer's comparison with the Cascio lyrics. It's irrelevant as I even don't know him.

As far as subjectivity is concerned, I am not more subjective than all those who claim the contrary. So what's your point? Furthermore, you ask an opinion from a linguist. When you obtain it, you claim that his opinion is arrogant and not more valid than yours. Now you are lecturing me about subjectivity. Suit yourself.

Nah, you're not distinguishing between your fan being and your occupation. In this thread right here I've only seen you judging on these songs from the "I hate them and I hope it's someone else"-point of view.

Since you've thrown in your occupation you might think you could utilize it to strengthen your argumentation. But I tell you, this won't work.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Nah, you're not distinguishing between your fan being and your occupation. In this thread right here I've only seen you judging on these songs from the "I hate them and I hope it's someone else"-point of view.

Since you've thrown in your occupation you might think you could utilize it to strengthen your argumentation. But I tell you, this won't work.

That's a slander! You are not quoting me but making up a sentence and putting it into my mouth. I never said that I hated the songs. On the contrary, I said that the songs were catchy. I have nothing against the melody of the songs, I always said that it's the voice that made me frown my eyebrows as I couldn't recognize Michael. The poor lyrics only nurture my doubts.

 

[Anna]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Nah, you're not distinguishing between your fan being and your occupation. In this thread right here I've only seen you judging on these songs from the "I hate them and I hope it's someone else"-point of view.

Since you've thrown in your occupation you might think you could utilize it to strengthen your argumentation. But I tell you, this won't work.

After this morning's "killing UP" debacle, you really shouldn't be criticizing other people like that. Try opening up your mind just a crack and stop judging unfairly.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Korgnex, please quote me where I said I hated the tracks as well as the sentence you put between quotes in your false accusation! You are faking my arguments, it's not cool.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Nah, you're not distinguishing between your fan being and your occupation. In this thread right here I've only seen you judging on these songs from the "I hate them and I hope it's someone else"-point of view.

Since you've thrown in your occupation you might think you could utilize it to strengthen your argumentation. But I tell you, this won't work.

Your argument was deemed invalid as soon as you stooped to calling Bumper arrogant because you couldn`t accept his expert opinion..

 

[Worldwide]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Like a demo you mean?

Nah not quite, I mean if you listen to the version of Monster that leaked before the album version did, it's a bit slower & the drums are different.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There are many constructive avenues one can take in making logical, reasoned assertions that the Cascio vocals are not MJ.

As I've said before, I don't think the motivation of certain players is one of them.

In addition to this, I also think analysing the lyrics is not going to lead anywhere.

MJ has made up words ("tenderoni") and also made grammatical errors ("place without no name"). Importantly, this kind of argument does not address vocals, which is the key thing here, but songwriting credits. If I don't think MJ is singing, then I certainly don't care who wrote it.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Nah not quite, I mean if you listen to the version of Monster that leaked before the album version did, it's a bit slower & the drums are different.

Like a demo, you mean?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There are many constructive avenues one can take in making logical, reasoned assertions that the Cascio vocals are not MJ.

As I've said before, I don't think the motivation of certain players is one of them.

In addition to this, I also think analysing the lyrics is not going to lead anywhere.

MJ has made up words ("tenderoni") and also made grammatical errors ("place without no name"). Importantly, this kind of argument does not address vocals, which is the key thing here, but songwriting credits. If I don't think MJ is singing, then I certainly don't care who wrote it.

I must disagree with you. "Aplace without no name" is slang, therefore acceptable as much as "Ain't no sunshine"

As far as tendroni is concerned, Michael did not invent it! It's a slang again! Therefore acceptable.

Here some references:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenderoni

Tenderoni is a slang terminology used to describe one's younger male or female love interest or someone too young to talk to or become involved with. It is composed of "tender", which is a synonym for young and "roni" which usually serves as an affectionate diminutive towards a male or female. It denotes your younger sweetheart, your younger better half, your younger boyfriend/girlfriend, and more recently used as an alternate word for jailbait.
The word is also commonly used to simply describe young women, without the connotation of them being too young. This definition of the word is common in popular music. In the 1970s the word tenderoni was commonly used to identify a younger male or female that an older individual was interested in talking to or dating. Or a younger person one needed to stay away from because of their age. It was not uncommon to hear someone say, "I have a tenderoni in my life", "that's my tenderoni" or "Don't talk to him/her because he/she is a tenderoni."
Cassell's Dictionary of Slang, which defines tenderoni as "a sweet young girl", dates the word to the 1980s, attributing it to black teenagers in the United States.[1] The word gained renewed attention when Bobby Brown used it in his successful 1988 hit "Roni" to describe a young beautiful girl. The term has surfaced in other pieces of music as well.
[edit] Appearances of tenderoni in popular music

• Michael Jackson, "P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)" (1982)

"...Tenderoni you've got to beSpark my nature, sugar fly with me..."

• Leon Haywood, "Tenderoni" (1984)[2]

• O'Bryan, "Tenderoni" (1986)

• Bobby Brown, "Roni" (1988)

• Grand Puba (Brand Nubian), "One For All" (1990)

"No I'm not a phony, and I got a tenderoni,I love the way she is - not too fat, not too bony"

• Marky Mark And The Funky Bunch, "Make me say Ooh!" (1991)

"I am going to show you that I am not phony, cause I like you baby, you're my tenderoni"

• Vanilla Ice, "Havin' A Roni" (1991)

• Tim Dog, "I Get Wrecked" (1993)

"...Bitch ass niggaz step asideTenderoni rappers, means your homicide..."

• Tevin Campbell, "Can We Talk" (1993)

"...And just like a roniYou were too shy..."

• Lost Boyz, "Renee" (1995)

"...She came back with stretch pants and a ponytail, at-shirt. Ayo fam I got a tenderroni girl..."

• K.P. & Envyi (1997)

"This might be my only shot at a tenderoni..."

• KP & Envyi, "Swing My Way" (1997)

"...Said I know that you don't know meBut this might be my only shot at a tenderoni..."

• Method Man, "Break Ups 2 Make Ups" (1998)

"...Said you would never leave me lonely, fly tendoroni but you're phony..."

• Destiny's Child, "Hey Ladies" (1999)

"...My man's been cheatin' on meBeen runnin' round here wit' this little tenderoni ..."

• Quasimoto, "Real Eyes" (2000)

"...Y'all Niggaz is played like pimp sessions withtenderonies..."

• J-Live, "Like This Anna" (2002)

"...A lot of snakes wanna get up in your tenderoni..."

• Wayne Wonder, "Nobody But Me" (2003)

"Sweet Tenderoni" is a recurring lyric and "she's my sweet tenderoni" features in the chorus.

• Floppy Dicky, "Floppy Dick Missing" (2005)

"...You're so beautiful you made my dick go missing, tenderioooni..."

• Latoya London, "Non A What'cha Do" (2005)

"...No side homies, no tenderonies..."

• Chromeo, "Tenderoni" (2007)

"...cause you're my tenderoni."

• Jaheim, "What you think of that" (2008)

"...my tenderoni only"

• Little Brother, "Too Late for Us"

"...it's been a moment, and you're lookin' like a tenderoni."

• Akon, "Yali Nassini ft. Melissa" (2009)

"...You can be under my arm as my lil tenderoni"

• Pleasure P, "Tenderoni" (2009)

"...I wanna make her my only, my tenderoni yeah"

• Red Hot Flames, "Tenderoni" (2009)

• Lil Wayne, "Da Da Da" (2009)

"...Well I can be your hubby, oh your only tenderoni..."

• Kele Okereke, "Tenderoni" (2010)

"T-E-N-D-E-R-O-N-I"

• Kanye West, "The Cleveland Show Rap Battle Feat. Kanye West " (2010)

"...leave my girl alone and get your own tenderoni, who are we kidding, you're used to being lonely"

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Fair enough. So could one label the oddities in the Cascio songs as "slang"?

I just think the whole lyrics perspective is a weak platform to launch a sustainable argument from.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

A vocal track produced by Angelikson Productions - recorded November 2007.

http://snd.sc/ggfiV9

This is exactly how the voice on the Cascio tracks should sound like.

 

[Korgnex]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Korgnex, please quote me where I said I hated the tracks as well as the sentence you put between quotes in your false accusation! You are faking my arguments, it's not cool.

the thing I put in quotes isn't a quote by you, otherwise it would be written in a quotation box like this:

Hi, this is me, the quotation box. I'm quoting sth from sb.

and it wasn't intended as a quote, there seems to be a misunderstanding, it's only between quotation marks for better illustration.
If this was a quote by sb, that person would have been mentioned by me somewhere in the sentence.
I don't even understand how you come think I would be so stupid trying to fake your arguments.

"I hate them and I hope it's someone else"-point of view:
That's MY description of how I see your point of view. Nothing else.

MJ is so huge that JM will always be just in MJ's shadow.

This is what makes me think you hate the songs. You did say that Jason is hated by many fans (which MIGHT include you). And you DO believe it's him singing those songs.

Personally I don't think you have successfully avoided to become biased. Your postings are indicating sth else.

Also supported by this:

If one day it has been unambiguously established that Michael had written or sung those lyrics, I'd be of course disappointed and naturally admit that I was wrong to doubt. Untill then, I must say that aside the voice, the lyrics aren't convincing as they are not quite profound.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Fair enough. So could one label the oddities in the Cascio songs as "slang"?

I've never ever heard anyone else sing about 'killing up' or 'air under me'. Slang suggests common parlance. And there's nothing common about those lines.

I just think the whole lyrics perspective is a weak platform to launch a sustainable argument from.

I don't. I think Michael Jackson was serious about his art. And sang serious songs - especially from Thriller onwards. So to hear a song about nothing raises even more questions.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Fair enough. So could one label the oddities in the Cascio songs as "slang"?

If they are referenced or spoken in a particular region then of course. But if you see no reference whatsoever, then it becomes unjustified neologism. Usually neologisms are fabricated when no other expression exists. For example "Internet" = International Network.

In case of the Cascio song my question is still remaining: where and in what situation do you use the verb "kill up" or "mama got you in a zig zag". I am willing to accept them, but can't find any reference or any English speaker who seems to use them.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If they are referenced or spoken in a particular region then of course. But if you see no reference whatsoever, then it becomes unjustified neologism. Usually neologisms are fabricated when no other expression exists. For example "Internet" = International Network.

In case of the Cascio song my question is still remaining: where and in what situation do you use the verb "kill up" or "mama got you in a zig zag". I am willing to accept them, but can't find any reference or any English speaker who seems to use them.

Well then it gets stranger and stranger. So if there is no reference of English speaking people saying that type of thing, that would suggest the songs were at least partly written by a non-native English speaker (?). Or someone who is exceedingly crap at their own language. Which MJ was not.

P.S. The zig zag lyric - that's a 50 Cent lyric right? I don't really listen to these songs anymore.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

the thing I put in quotes isn't a quote by you, otherwise it would be written in a quotation box like this:



and it wasn't intended as a quote, there seems to be a misunderstanding, it's only between quotation marks for better illustration.
If this was a quote by sb, that person would have been mentioned by me somewhere in the sentence.
I don't even understand how you come think I would be so stupid trying to fake your arguments.

"I hate them and I hope it's someone else"-point of view:
That's MY description of how I see your point of view. Nothing else.





This is what makes me think you hate the songs. You did say that Jason is hated by many fans (which MIGHT include you). And you DO believe it's him singing those songs.

Personally I don't think you have successfully avoided to become biased. Your postings are indicating sth else.

Also supported by this:

Only because I said that Jason Malachi will always be in MJ's shadow you far-fecth it and interpret as someone or something that I hate???????
Wow.
Regarding the biased point of view, I aleady explained that I trusted my ears. My ears are telling me it is not Michael. I call this being honest with what I hear, not being biased for the purpose of it.

Can't you see that your arguments are purely based on your own interpretations and not one fact? That's pure slander.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well then it gets stranger and stranger. So if there is no reference of English speaking people saying that type of thing, that would suggest the songs were at least partly written by a non-native English speaker (?). Or someone who is exceedingly crap at their own language. Which MJ was not.

Or someone who couldn't write a song. Unlike Michael Jackson. THE Michael Jackson that wrote:

About the treatment of blacks and the Emancipation Proclamation:

'Your proclamation promised me free liberty'

About the bogus allegations of 1993 and the settlement via his insurance carrier:

'Insurance... Where do your loyalties lie? Is that your alibi? I don't think so'

Prophetic lyrics about the disgusting way he was treated by the media nad how they'd treat him in death:

'If he dies sympathise, such false witnesses... damn self-righteousness'

Yet after that we have to hear 'killing up the life in the birds and the trees', 'mama say mama got you in a zigzag'? It's not the same person. Clearly.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Well then it gets stranger and stranger. So if there is no reference of English speaking people saying that type of thing, that would suggest the songs were at least partly written by a non-native English speaker (?). Or someone who is exceedingly crap at their own language. Which MJ was not.

P.S. The zig zag lyric - that's a 50 Cent lyric right? I don't really listen to these songs anymore.

Well, I really can't answer for sure as I still don't know if there are regions where you use those expressions. However, if someone tried to make it sound slangish or Black English* (yes, it does exist), he or she miserably failed.




*AAVE=
African American Vernacular English

usually refers to the everyday spoken varieties of English used by African Americans, especially of the working class in urban neighborhoods or rural communities. Linguists generally prefer the term African American Vernacular English, although some use the term Ebonics, which saw widespread use in the late 1990s. It is an error to suppose that Black English is spoken by all African Americans regardless of their background. In fact, the English spoken by African Americans is highly varied

as varied as the English spoken by any other racial or ethnic group. · Sometimes Black English is used to refer to other varieties of English spoken by Black people outside of the United States, as in the Caribbean and the United Kingdom.



p.s. @Korgnex, yes, disappointed, as the lyrics are disappointing. I am not contradicting myself, I am being honest.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@ Korgnex

I can give you another example:

The Church rejected some apocryphas because they doubt them. They absolutely have no clue if they contain Jesus's words or not. However, they do not deny that some apocryphas might detain some Jesus's words. The reason why they reject the apocryphas is because these latter don't sound as Jesus's words. Now, if one day they unambiguously discover that those apocryphas were indeed Jesus's words, what do you think their reaction would be? Joy or disappointment?

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@ Korgnex: For what it's worth, Bumper Snippet is someone who I enjoy discussing with because I think they are open to listen to all points of views, calmly present their evidence, and willing to admit when the evidence is incomplete. That's not very biased in my eyes.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@ Korgnex: For what it's worth, Bumper Snippet is someone who I enjoy discussing with because I think they are open to listen to all points of views, calmly present their evidence, and willing to admit when the evidence is incomplete. That's not very biased in my eyes.

Well it seems that Korgnex wants to believe himslef about what others think rather than to read the reaction of the people. By the way, he already proved with his google links that he was superficially reading what was written.

 

[Korgnex]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ Yes, in this case, I didn't really read anything.

Can happen when you get sick from this thread. I definitely need another break as it seems we'll be going around in circles forever and ever...

@kopwatcher: Well, actually, I agree with you. I like reading most postings of "BUMPER_SNIPPET".

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ Yes, in this case, I didn't really read anything.

Can happen when you get sick from this thread. I definitely need another break as it seems well be going around in circles forever and ever...

Then please, I am begging you, read what people write instead of interpreting it.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@ Korgnex: For what it's worth, Bumper Snippet is someone who I enjoy discussing with because I think they are open to listen to all points of views, calmly present their evidence, and willing to admit when the evidence is incomplete. That's not very biased in my eyes.

^ Yes, in this case, I didn't really read anything.

Can happen when you get sick from this thread. I definitely need another break as it seems we'll be going around in circles forever and ever...

@kopwatcher: Well, actually, I agree with you. I like reading most postings of "BUMPER_SNIPPET".

Wow guys, I am flattered, thank you so much.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Wow guys, I am flattered, thank you so much.

Don't be....They're just kissing your ass

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Don't be....They're just kissing your ass

YOu can't help it, can you?

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

YOu can't help it, can you?

...You love it

 

[Tom]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Haven't posted here in like a week. Any news?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Haven't posted here in like a week. Any news?

Yes, there's a new snippet of MJ with Barry Gibb, and undoubtfully no doubter doubted the undoubted vocals. It is Michael