Latest on MJJC

Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think some of you are in denial that Michael always sounded great and like himself...

If he always had a magical voice, why did he use backing tracks during a lot of This Is It? Why only actually sing a couple songs? You can give me 'excuses', like he was 'saving his voice' or whatever you want. But that is what it is, an excuse. He didn't always sound amazing.

There have been lots of reports from people close to Michael that he was losing his voice, said he couldn't hit the same notes anymore. He was a perfectionist...

I think one of the reasons so much processing was needed to be done was because of volume leveling issues, time keeping issues, etc.

Doing remixes from scratch from an acapella track is quite difficult. It can be done... it's not impossible, but a lot of the times you can tell that it doesn't fit quite properly over the new mix. It's not going to be perfect, Michael isn't with us anymore... ANYthing that is released now will be, technically, incomplete because he never finished it and released it.

Unless rare instances, of course, where he'll have a song that needs barely retouched, like I Like The Way or Best Of Joy. Even Best Of Joy seems to have copied and pasted vocals, though, and the vocals are somewhat incomplete... I doubt the song wouldn't have been reworked more.

I hear a much higher pitched voice in the Cascio tracks than Jason, and Jason seems less powerful. I have heard the excuse that they pitched Michael's voice up and so Malachi's voice must be pitched up, too. Doesn't that sound like nonsense?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram said:
I think some of you are in denial that Michael always sounded great and like himself...

If he always had a magical voice, why did he use backing tracks during a lot of This Is It? Why only actually sing a couple songs? You can give me 'excuses', like he was 'saving his voice' or whatever you want. But that is what it is, an excuse. He didn't always sound amazing.

There have been lots of reports from people close to Michael that he was losing his voice, said he couldn't hit the same notes anymore. He was a perfectionist...
Click to expand...

The thing is, we're not talking about him always sounding 'amazing'....Although, to me, he does always sound amazing....That's what makes him Michael Jackson....Michael Jackson sounding amazing is NATURAL for him....Even if you feel he doesn't always sound amazing, when have we heard him sound completely unlike himself, like a different person?

You're talking about TII, or people saying he couldn't hit the high notes anymore.....If he lost his 'magical voice' as you say, or couldn't hit the high notes, then explain his voice while he's singing IJCSLY, or Human Nature...These are UNREAL vocal performances.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram said:
I think some of you are in denial that Michael always sounded great and like himself...

If he always had a magical voice, why did he use backing tracks during a lot of This Is It? Why only actually sing a couple songs? You can give me 'excuses', like he was 'saving his voice' or whatever you want. But that is what it is, an excuse. He didn't always sound amazing.

There have been lots of reports from people close to Michael that he was losing his voice, said he couldn't hit the same notes anymore. He was a perfectionist...

I think one of the reasons so much processing was needed to be done was because of volume leveling issues, time keeping issues, etc.

Doing remixes from scratch from an acapella track is quite difficult. It can be done... it's not impossible, but a lot of the times you can tell that it doesn't fit quite properly over the new mix. It's not going to be perfect, Michael isn't with us anymore... ANYthing that is released now will be, technically, incomplete because he never finished it and released it.

Unless rare instances, of course, where he'll have a song that needs barely retouched, like I Like The Way or Best Of Joy. Even Best Of Joy seems to have copied and pasted vocals, though, and the vocals are somewhat incomplete... I doubt the song wouldn't have been reworked more.

I hear a much higher pitched voice in the Cascio tracks than Jason, and Jason seems less powerful. I have heard the excuse that they pitched Michael's voice up and so Malachi's voice must be pitched up, too. Doesn't that sound like nonsense?
Click to expand...
But I read that Michael's vocal range increased as he got older. He gained lower notes but kept the high ones too. He had an octave range of 4.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
Hot-blooded indeed. :naughty: I just had to post a little bit of off-topicness...You may drool, then we'll proceed to the debate again...

Thank you Michael for not wearing underwear.

MJ193.jpg
Click to expand...


Ohh la la.... this post works better than my 3-pm-coffee. Fully awake now!!! :wild:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram said:
I hear a much higher pitched voice in the Cascio tracks than Jason, and Jason seems less powerful. I have heard the excuse that they pitched Michael's voice up and so Malachi's voice must be pitched up, too. Doesn't that sound like nonsense?
Click to expand...
NO!? What on earth, if they did in fact pitch up Malachi's voice on these Cascio songs, then what doesn't make sense? It would make perfect sense to pitch the original Malachi stuff as well for comparing.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram said:
I think some of you are in denial that Michael always sounded great and like himself...

If he always had a magical voice, why did he use backing tracks during a lot of This Is It? Why only actually sing a couple songs? You can give me 'excuses', like he was 'saving his voice' or whatever you want. But that is what it is, an excuse. He didn't always sound amazing.

There have been lots of reports from people close to Michael that he was losing his voice, said he couldn't hit the same notes anymore. He was a perfectionist...

I think one of the reasons so much processing was needed to be done was because of volume leveling issues, time keeping issues, etc.

Doing remixes from scratch from an acapella track is quite difficult. It can be done... it's not impossible, but a lot of the times you can tell that it doesn't fit quite properly over the new mix. It's not going to be perfect, Michael isn't with us anymore... ANYthing that is released now will be, technically, incomplete because he never finished it and released it.

Unless rare instances, of course, where he'll have a song that needs barely retouched, like I Like The Way or Best Of Joy. Even Best Of Joy seems to have copied and pasted vocals, though, and the vocals are somewhat incomplete... I doubt the song wouldn't have been reworked more.

I hear a much higher pitched voice in the Cascio tracks than Jason, and Jason seems less powerful. I have heard the excuse that they pitched Michael's voice up and so Malachi's voice must be pitched up, too. Doesn't that sound like nonsense?
Click to expand...


No, saving his voice for the actual performance is not an excuse. It's totally valid and responsible for him to do so. We are talking about a master vocalist with over 40 years of professional singing experience. He knew what he had to do to protect his gift. Why would he risk killing his voice during rehearsal?

According to one of the sound engieers during the HIStory session, Michael recorded Earth Song just before mastering. He saved the song till the last minute because Michael knew doing the ad libs of the song would kill his voice.

As a professional vocalist, he had every reason not to sing out during rehearsals.

Hollywood Tonight is obviously incomplete. But, I welcome it with open arms. I treasure it. The husk and the sparks in Michael's voice can be felt in HT, but not on the Cascio tracks. I still wonder why?

Please enlighten me on Best of Joy. I know it's incomplete. How much I wish Michael was here to finish it. However, where is the copy and paste vocals you are talking about? I don't hear any blatant Control C and Control V going on with BoJ.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram, Michael even said himself in TII that he was trying to preserve his voice....Yet, you're calling it an 'excuse'?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
Aniram, Michael even said himself in TII that he was trying to preserve his voice....Yet, you're calling it an 'excuse'?
Click to expand...
Preserving it so it will sound better is not the same as losing his voice.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

mjjesamor said:
Kreen how would explanation number 1 not be fraudulent? You are basically saying that parts were non existant and that they were 'filled in' or 'supplemented' with somebody elses voice.... Porte you say and as he's credited what's the big deal? Are you serious? You are talking about lead vocals. Porte is only credited for backing vocals. How is it not fraud when even you admit that parts of the lead vocals are not michael? How can you 'over produce' something that is missing? Something that does not exist?
Click to expand...

The most probable explanation is that it IS MJ singing, even those strange-sounding lines, and their strangeness is due to the factors I mentioned above. Or they may just be due to the fact that, for some reason, that's how they were sung by MJ, who on that particular day felt like singing them this way.

But would I think it's the end of the world if we found out that an heavily-processed James Porte was used on one line on one track to complete an unusable line? Of course not. That kind of fudging is very common in the music industry.

And MJ himself wasn't above such tactics while he was alive : for instance, he's credited on most Invincible material even though he didn't write or produce much of it. And his use of play-back during "live" performances isn't exactly a model of artistic truthfulness.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Anna said:
Preserving it so it will sound better is not the same as losing his voice.
Click to expand...

So, did he ever lose his voice? Didn't he sound great throughout TII?

If his voice was indeed less than ideal during his stay with the Cascios, why would he still record all those demos? Why would he risk further damange his voice? Michael always knew his limit. He's a professional since the age of 5.

Why he sounded so silky and perfect in WBSS 2008 and HMH, two songs recorded circa 2007?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Now I got it! Yes it is Michael Jackson on the Cascio tracks. Only he recorded from the shower, while having a shower, and sometimes the water got instantly cold and, you know, the man got shivers. That's why we hear this goat vibrato on the Cascio tracks! How easy it was to explain
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

donalb said:
Re #1, the lead vocals for Monster are only credited to Michael Jackson (unlike KYHU where the "vocals" are credited to both Michael Jackson and Porte according to the album notes). Moreover, I believe that both Sony and the Estate have said that the lead vocals are "100% Michael". As ONLY Michael Jackson is credited with the lead vocals on Monster, any other result must = fake. There is no middle ground for this song.
Click to expand...

Don't take the album credits as gospel. There are spelling errors in the lyrics to Another Day, an additional line in the lyrics for Hollywood Tonight, and some songs have vocal credits, while others don't. The info's all over the place.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hey, I already found that out, barok!!!

Pentum said:
What about this!

Eddie pushing hot and cold buttons in shower while MJ singing, makes MJ's body temperature go crazy and MJ would sound different! Try it!


I'M NOW A BELIEVER!!!!
Click to expand...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
So, did he ever lose his voice? Didn't he sound great throughout TII?

If his voice was indeed less than ideal during his stay with the Cascios, why would he still record all those demos? Why would he risk further damange his voice? Michael always knew his limit. He's a professional since the age of 5.

Why he sounded so silky and perfect in WBSS 2008 and HMH, two songs recorded circa 2007?
Click to expand...
Yeah. It doesn't add up.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
The thing is, we're not talking about him always sounding 'amazing'....Although, to me, he does always sound amazing....That's what makes him Michael Jackson....Michael Jackson sounding amazing is NATURAL for him....Even if you feel he doesn't always sound amazing, when have we heard him sound completely unlike himself, like a different person?

You're talking about TII, or people saying he couldn't hit the high notes anymore.....If he lost his 'magical voice' as you say, or couldn't hit the high notes, then explain his voice while he's singing IJCSLY, or Human Nature...These are UNREAL vocal performances.
Click to expand...

On IJCSLY, I suspect that they used the original recorded chorus to augment MJ's live singing : it just sounds much more powerful than the verses. And on Human Nature, they actually used auto-tune to improve MJ's vocals for the released version of the film, because when that Human Nature sequence was first leaked on the Internet (I remember it was the first part of the film to be leaked), MJ's "why, why"'s sounded shaky compared to the released version.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
Hey, I already found that out, barok!!!
Click to expand...

Ok credit goes to you then :D. Let's just say I contributed by saying the same thing in a different way :yes:. (mine is more specific, yours is wider, more general)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Neither does the doubters claims that Malachi faked these tracks. None of it 'adds up'.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Anna said:
Preserving it so it will sound better is not the same as losing his voice.
Click to expand...

Right. It's evident he didn't lose his voice when you listen to him on TII...He said himself he was preserving his voice. I'm just wondering why Aniram is saying that it's an excuse for Michael to be preserving his voice. What, we're now calling out Michael himself on 'excuses'?....That's just too funny...lol
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
So, did he ever lose his voice? Didn't he sound great throughout TII?

If his voice was indeed less than ideal during his stay with the Cascios, why would he still record all those demos? Why would he risk further damange his voice? Michael always knew his limit. He's a professional since the age of 5.

Why he sounded so silky and perfect in WBSS 2008 and HMH, two songs recorded circa 2007?
Click to expand...

It's unclear whether WBSS 2008 actually features a newly-recorded verse : some believe they just lifted the verse from the old demo version. As for HMH, this is a professionally-recorded vocal that was meant for release and recorded in a professional studio by actual producers and engineers. The Cascio tracks were guide vocals and demos never meant to be heard outside of MJ's inner circle.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
On IJCSLY, I suspect that they used the original recorded chorus to augment MJ's live singing : it just sounds much more powerful than the verses. And on Human Nature, they actually used auto-tune to improve MJ's vocals for the released version of the film, because when that Human Nature sequence was first leaked on the Internet (I remember it was the first part of the film to be leaked), MJ's "why, why"'s sounded shaky compared to the released version.
Click to expand...
Please point out where in the song they've used auto tune in Human Nature?

kreen said:
It's unclear whether WBSS 2008 actually features a newly-recorded verse : some believe they just lifted the verse from the old demo version. As for HMH, this is a professionally-recorded vocal that was meant for release and recorded in a professional studio by actual producers and engineers. The Cascio tracks were guide vocals and demos never meant to be heard outside of MJ's inner circle.
Click to expand...
WBSS 08 Vocals are OBVIOUSLY new vocals. Can't you tell?

The Cascio tracks were guide vocals and demos
Click to expand...
Therefor, MJ decided to do lines where no one can recognise him?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
Right. It's evident he didn't lose his voice when you listen to him on TII...He said himself he was preserving his voice. I'm just wondering why Aniram is saying that it's an excuse for Michael to be preserving his voice. What, we're now calling out Michael himself on 'excuses'?....That's just too funny...lol
Click to expand...
Sorry, I don't know why I quoted you instead of Aniram. Severe lack of sleep I guess. :lol:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Anna said:
Sorry, I don't know why I quoted you instead of Aniram. Severe lack of sleep I guess. :lol:
Click to expand...

hahaha....that's ok...I was wondering what your point was lol
 
Last edited:
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
Please point out where in the song they've used auto tune in Human Nature?


WBSS 08 Vocals are OBVIOUSLY new vocals. Can't you tell?

Therefor, MJ decided to do lines where no one can recognise him?
Click to expand...

For Human Nature, the part where he starts to sing the song in front of Kenny Ortega, and Ortega leads the band into the music : that part was autotuned on the "why's". In the original video, MJ's "why's" sounded a bit shaky, and a bit out of tune. They were fixed in post-production.

As for WBSS 2008, I honestly don't know : I think they're new, but I don't know whether they were recorded at Angelickson studio, or in Akon's studio. Even if they are new, the fact that MJ only recorded one new verse for the complete Thriller 25 project kind of indicates to me that he wasn't at his best during that period. Let me put it this way : when I heard MJ say during a TV appearance that he was "in the studio recording" for the new Thriller CD, I did not think that the only thing to come out of this would be a 15-second new verse.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
The most probable explanation is that it IS MJ singing, even those strange-sounding lines, and their strangeness is due to the factors I mentioned above. Or they may just be due to the fact that, for some reason, that's how they were sung by MJ, who on that particular day felt like singing them this way.

But would I think it's the end of the world if we found out that an heavily-processed James Porte was used on one line on one track to complete an unusable line? Of course not. That kind of fudging is very common in the music industry.

And MJ himself wasn't above such tactics while he was alive : for instance, he's credited on most Invincible material even though he didn't write or produce much of it. And his use of play-back during "live" performances isn't exactly a model of artistic truthfulness.
Click to expand...

Why are you comparing live performance to studio recording? You are comparing performing arts to recoring arts. You know damn well how much is involved in live performing. Sometime, it's just unavoidable to use play back. Wasn't Michael Jackson singing to his own recordings and dancing in front of a stadium full of audience? The man go on a slippery stage to perform in Moscow one cold September evening. Other artists would just cancel the show given that circumstances. Not Michael Jackson. He went on. Not model of artistic truthfulness?

He may not write most of the Invincible material. But, how are you so sure he didn't produce much of it? So, him sticking with producers through every recording sessions, giving suggestions and pressing for more didn't count? Did he just go to the studio and give his vocals and get out once he's done?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ah, the desperation...Downplaying Mike's talents once again to justify these Cascio songs....Wow...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

samhabib said:
And as a Michael Jackson fan you're happy to celebrate this?



I posted that quote as an example of a person whose opinions changed when provided with 'proof'. Which you claimed wouldn't happen. But, in your case, it did.
Click to expand...

What exactly are you clutching at though? I've always said I've felt some of these songs have questionable filling, I've never said otherwise. So how exactly did my opinion change?

In regard to what is "without a doubt" Michael I do have doubts, only because seven of the songs on this album were in question by family/Rooney, but the only song mentioned by name was "Breaking News". Since Rooney, Taj J and "everyone in that room" were listening to these before they actually got out online (Randy J too? per his twitters?)
Click to expand...

And this still has yet to be answered by any doubters here, is this true? This person is also a doubter, and claims to have knowledge that The Jackson's and Rooney not only questioned the Cascio tracks, but four other songs on the album. If this is true, why is this discussion solely about three tracks?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Because the other tracks are widely agreed to be MJ. Although quite how someone could doubt another 4 is a bit confusing....given the evidence of MJ's heavy involvement.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
It's unclear whether WBSS 2008 actually features a newly-recorded verse : some believe they just lifted the verse from the old demo version. As for HMH, this is a professionally-recorded vocal that was meant for release and recorded in a professional studio by actual producers and engineers. The Cascio tracks were guide vocals and demos never meant to be heard outside of MJ's inner circle.
Click to expand...

Okay, one can debate whether that verse is newly reocrded or not. For me personally, I believe it's newly recorded because I hear a mature soulful voice rather than a youthful energetic voice.

The background vocals MUST be newly recorded; unless, Michael knew in 1982 that he would do Thriller 25 in 2008 and would have Akon featured in WBSS. That background vocals are so clearly unmistakenly Michael Jackson even though the vocals are "processed" and layered with echos.

So, the Cascio tracks were guide vocals recorded with crappy equipment by crappy producers. How's it artistic truthful to release those songs then?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top