Latest on MJJC

Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kopwatcher said:
Because the other tracks are widely agreed to be MJ. Although quite how someone could doubt another 4 is a bit confusing....given the evidence of MJ's heavy involvement.
Click to expand...

Question : I read over and over again how a picture or handwritten notes or work tapes wouldn't be evidence for Cascio songs.

So why would handwritten notes for "Hollywood tonight" be considered as evidence?

wasn't the argument "him writing the songs doesn't mean he sing them"?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
Question : I read over and over again how a picture or handwritten notes or work tapes wouldn't be evidence for Cascio songs.

So why would handwritten notes for "Hollywood tonight" be considered as evidence?

wasn't the argument "him writing the songs doesn't mean he sing them"?
Click to expand...

Hollywood Tonight doesn't need any evidence, no one is questioning that track? those who are questioning Hollywood Tonight I won't even waste my time discussing with them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

He's not Mr. Freeze anymore. He's Governor Freeze
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

popcorn2.gif
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kreen said:
Appparently, yes, judging from Dr. Freeze's statements, and from the demo for Whatever Happens.
Click to expand...

There is no reason for me to doubt Dr. Freeze. However, knowing Michael's style as attested by Quincy Jones, Teddy Riley, will.i.am, etc... I find it hard to believe that Michael would just come into a studio, give his vocals and get his ass out.

kreen said:
Let me put it this way : let's say the Cascio tracks ARE indeed MJ. Would you rather those tracks stayed in the vaults forever? Or would you rather they be released, so people could hear them?
Click to expand...

It's true that songs like Best of Joy and Much Too Soon are gifts to us. However, one should find a fine balance in releasing materials from the vault. I never agree to pour out every possible tapes from the vault. The Cascio tracks are simply not good enough.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
So despite the possibility, that The Jacksons and Rooney, who most of you seem to be putting putting your faith in, questioned not only the Cascio songs, but four others that they had nothing to do with, we just leave that alone right? Forget that they ever said that, if they did, and just focus solely on part of their argument, as if what they say is gospel? Wow.
Click to expand...

You're assuming the 7 songs they spoke of are all on the album. They could have been questioning 7 Cascio tracks, since it seems logical they would have heard All I Need and Stay, and possibly Burn Tonight and others. Tarryl said he supported all of the other 7 tracks on the album.

I think when they said" 7 songs on the album", they just meant songs intended for the album, since the doubts would have came before a final track list.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Hollywood Tonight doesn't need any evidence, no one is questioning that track? those who are questioning Hollywood Tonight I won't even waste my time discussing with them.
Click to expand...

do not limit my question to one song. you know what I mean.

The handwritten notes Neff-u has shown is referred as "evidence" for those songs. Yet it's argued that if similar handwritten notes existed for Cascio songs it wouldn't be "evidence". Care to explain this paradox?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
Question : I read over and over again how a picture or handwritten notes or work tapes wouldn't be evidence for Cascio songs.

So why would handwritten notes for "Hollywood tonight" be considered as evidence?

wasn't the argument "him writing the songs doesn't mean he sing them"?
Click to expand...
Absolutely correct. Handwritten notes would at least be evidence of MJ's involvement, and we don't even have that at the moment. To prove he actually sang them I'd want to see him singing them. However, that first tier of validation hasn't been reached yet, let alone the second.

Knowing MJ at least had some involvement would make things a little easier to deal with.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Superstition said:
You're assuming the 7 songs they spoke of are all on the album. They could have been questioning 7 Cascio tracks, since it seems logical they would have heard All I Need and Stay, and possibly Burn Tonight and others. Tarryl said he supported all of the other 7 tracks on the album.
Click to expand...

I'm not assuming anything, I'm going by the contents of what I quoted, where it specifically says "seven of the songs on this album where questioned by The Jackson's/Rooney, the only one that was announced by name was Breaking News".
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kopwatcher said:
Absolutely correct. Handwritten notes would at least be evidence of MJ's involvement, and we don't even have that at the moment. To prove he actually sang them I'd want to see him singing them. However, that first tier of validation hasn't been reached yet, let alone the second.

Knowing MJ at least had some involvement would make things a little easier to deal with.
Click to expand...


so that means that for other songs we only have the first level of validation as well and do not have the second?

that Michael wrote them but we aren't 100% certain that he's singing them as we didn't see a video of him singing them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
I find it hard to believe that Michael would just come into a studio, give his vocals and get his ass out.
Click to expand...

Oh, he does that when he's in a hurry to get his 'ass' over to see me...It IS plausible :naughty:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
so that means that for other songs we only have the first level of validation as well and do not have the second?

that Michael wrote them but we aren't 100% certain that he's singing them as we didn't see a video of him singing them.
Click to expand...
I keep going back to the 'ears' part. I don't need evidence to confirm something my ears already tell me! I've never seen any evidence of MJ's involvement on Keep The Faith or Slave To The Rhythm - but I know it's him!

It keeps coming back to what we're hearing.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
Oh, he does that when he's in a hurry to get his 'ass' over to see me...It IS plausible :naughty:
Click to expand...

or he can't wait to get his ass over here to play hot trick with me... :naughty:
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
so that means that for other songs we only have the first level of validation as well and do not have the second?

that Michael wrote them but we aren't 100% certain that he's singing them as we didn't see a video of him singing them.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't really say it's the same thing. Anyone with any sense of MJ's vocals can tell it's MJ on the other 7 tracks. It sounds exactly like him. The Cascio tracks don't sound exactly like him, which has led to the doubts.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kopwatcher said:
I keep going back to the 'ears' part. I don't need evidence to confirm something my ears already tell me! I've never seen any evidence of MJ's involvement on Keep The Faith or Slave To The Rhythm - but I know it's him!

It keeps coming back to what we're hearing.
Click to expand...

Agree. The other tracks are even not questioned.

What we are saying is that there is no any trace, everything is destroyed according to the Cascios. Now, why would you do that anyway knowing that everything was not in perfect condition?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Another interesting thing. Michael recorded several demo vesions of "hold my hand" and yet on the Cascio he would order to destroy everything?

There is a version of Hold My Hand where you can clearly hear Akon singing in the beginning "Konvict Music"

There is another demo where it is Michael Jackson himself who sings that line.

But the Cascio tracks have nothing at all? No alternatives?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kopwatcher said:
I keep going back to the 'ears' part. I don't need evidence to confirm something my ears already tell me! I've never seen any evidence of MJ's involvement on Keep The Faith or Slave To The Rhythm - but I know it's him!

It keeps coming back to what we're hearing.
Click to expand...

Anna said:
I wouldn't really say it's the same thing. Anyone with any sense of MJ's vocals can tell it's MJ on the other 7 tracks. It sounds exactly like him. The Cascio tracks don't sound exactly like him, which has led to the doubts.
Click to expand...

and "I don't hear him" is a better argument for your point of view.

It's just that when you call handwritten notes "evidence" in one instance and "not evidence" in another one it shows the bias. I just wanted to point that out.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
But the Cascio tracks have nothing at all? No alternatives?
Click to expand...
Nothing.
ivy said:
and "I don't hear him" is a better argument for your point of view.

It's just that when you call handwritten notes "evidence" in one instance and "not evidence" in another one it shows the bias. I just wanted to point that out.
Click to expand...

Woah woah woah woah woah woah woah. Evidence for what? Handwritten notes is evidence for involvement, not for vocals. That's not bias, that's a fact. Please don't twist what I'm saying.

On the subject of bias, which you have brought up many times, yes, we are all biased as MJ fans. We all want new music to be MJ - given the choice I'd want to hear a new MJ song rather than an impersonator. So we should be biased to believe they're legit.

Lastly, I've never said anyone's opinion is meaningless. I have however said that I believe that there are many things which are being conveniently overlooked by some (no evidence and the numerous 'dog ate my homework' reasons for it, inability to replicate MJ's vocals using Cascio songs, ease with which JM's vocals can be replicated inc. snorts, etc.).

When you put all that together and top it off with the coup de gras of the songs sounding nothing like MJ (IMO), it puts quite a compelling case forward.
 
Last edited:
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

kopwatcher said:
I keep going back to the 'ears' part. I don't need evidence to confirm something my ears already tell me! I've never seen any evidence of MJ's involvement on Keep The Faith or Slave To The Rhythm - but I know it's him!

It keeps coming back to what we're hearing.
Click to expand...

But those who say they trust their ears and hear Michael on the Cascio tracks, are basically told they're wrong and their opinion is meaningless. Now, what exactly is the difference here?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
and "I don't hear him" is a better argument for your point of view.

It's just that when you call handwritten notes "evidence" in one instance and "not evidence" in another one it shows the bias. I just wanted to point that out.
Click to expand...

Those are two different issues.

What is meant is that handritten notes by Michael would not bve the evidence that he sang the song, but at least had some ideas about them. Here we have neither notes nor any other single trace except Eddie and Riley saying "It is Michael" (knowing that Riley wasn't even present during the recording session at the Cascios'). That's quite weak.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

ivy said:
and "I don't hear him" is a better argument for your point of view.

It's just that when you call handwritten notes "evidence" in one instance and "not evidence" in another one it shows the bias. I just wanted to point that out.
Click to expand...
Hey, don't involve me like that. I am completely open minded at this point. I like to hear the evidence from both sides. I am leaning more toward they're fake at this point though.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Anna said:
Hey, don't involve me like that. I am completely open minded at this point. I like to hear the evidence from both sides. I am leaning more toward they're fake at this point though.
Click to expand...

How dare you !
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That's not bias ivy that's common sense. The handwritten notes on legitimate unmistakably mj songs are nice bonuses. They are not 'evidence' because we don't need evidence. There is no doubt that mj sings the other tracks. We're never going to get handwritten notes from the cascios anyway so it's irrelevant.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Unless they fake his handwriting. I wouldn't put it past them.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical said:
I find it hard to believe that Michael would just come into a studio, give his vocals and get his ass out.
Click to expand...

The only times I can think of Michael doing that, that we're aware of, are on Black or White - which is a 'scratch' vocal (and recorded in one take) and Fall Again (recorded in one take).

Surprise, surprise, two incredible vocal performances that are undoubtedly Michael Jackson. The lead for Black or White recorded in one take. ONE TAKE. And he sounds so damn good that it stays at number one in America for 6 weeks and is number one all over the world. ONE TAKE. Black or White. ONE TAKE.

And then you have these monstrosities.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I can see it now... the Cascio's show handwritten notes of lyrics or something and there are comparison pictures made that show how they faked the writing. :lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top