Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well I did say "questionable filling", did I not?

And as a Michael Jackson fan you're happy to celebrate this?

Also in that same post you have of me quoted, I also say that there's 0% of proof to support the theory that Michael isn't on these songs. So again, show me exactly where I've said "Michael Jackson isn't on these records", I'm certain you won't find it.

I posted that quote as an example of a person whose opinions changed when provided with 'proof'. Which you claimed wouldn't happen. But, in your case, it did.
 
Aniram;3261816 said:
Yes, like I said, a person isn't going through and finding all this stuff. It's all automated. A software bot knows certain waveforms as copyrighted.

False, it´s not automated.

You can hide a comparison video with music from the "MICHAEL" album or music from Malachi if you don´t put a tittle and the most important thing... if you don´t put it on MJJC or MaxJax.

If you don´t put a tittle or tags and if you don´t show it on any MJ forum, they will not catch it. I can asure you that it´s not automathic and they will not find it.

They (Cascios or Malachi) enter MJJC and MaxJax and look for comparisons. I´m 10000% sure of this.

Pentum;3261807 said:
Why did it take around a week before my Stay video was removed today by JAB ME Music?

Because Cascios were in Hollydays and Malachi was working as a Sheriff.

LOL !!!.
 
Kapital77;3261879 said:
False, it´s not automated.

You can hide a comparison video with music from the "MICHAEL" album or music from Malachi if you don´t put a tittle and the most important thing... if you don´t put it on MJJC or MaxJax.

If you don´t put a tittle or tags and if you don´t show it on any MJ forum, they will not catch it. I can asure you that it´s not automathic and they will not find it.

They (Cascios or Malachi) enter MJJC and MaxJax and look for comparisons. I´m 10000% sure of this.



Because Cascios were in Hollydays and Malachi was working as a Sheriff.

LOL !!!.

Yes it is automated, doesn't matter what title you give it, even if you use a tiny portion of the audio, Youtube will know. Straight away as soon as the video is uploaded.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok Ivy maybe i could have phrased it more tactfully but really i do tire of seeing certain people yourself included endlessly defending the Cascios. I haven't posted the last few days. I have a lot going on right now. Just because i don't always have time to post lengthy posts doesn't mean i am not entitled to make a quick comment if i feel the need to. Anyway as you've said yourself plenty it goes around in circles and the same arguments are rehashed over and over again. It's just a bit tiring sometimes.
You seem to be very keen on standing up for the Cascios (not just in this thread-in general)and the official line. When i read your posts it always feels like you are defending them very purposefully. It always feels like you have a specific agenda. Maybe i am wrong about that but i must say that is the impression i get.
You posted the link to preorder Frank's book yesterday. I must say i think that is a little inappropriate for a moderator to do. Why would you do that? Are you a fan?
I agree with others that it is mighty strange the way the comparison videos are constantly removed with such speed.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I agree with others that it is mighty strange the way the comparison videos are constantly removed with such speed.

Does anyone honestly believe those videos would be taken down if they weren't so damning?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ha... brilliant interview with musician Orsten... beware the wrath of the Michael Jackson fans! :)

180680_10150148028157317_732517316_8517489_8140634_n.jpg
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Brilliant! Nice find! I hope that he makes the results of the analysis public.
 
Worldwide;3261906 said:
Yes it is automated, doesn't matter what title you give it, even if you use a tiny portion of the audio, Youtube will know. Straight away as soon as the video is uploaded.

False, you tube erase the video as soon as you upload it if the video has the same code.

But if you change the code, you can reupload it as many times as you want.

After upload the video with the changed code, it´s when Cascios or Malachi arrives to call You tube to erase the video.
 
Last edited:
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ha... brilliant interview with musician Orsten... beware the wrath of the Michael Jackson fans! :)

180680_10150148028157317_732517316_8517489_8140634_n.jpg

Excellent.

Indeed when you read the article you deduce that SONY and Estate hired audiologists to prove that it IS Michael. They didn't hire them to prove that it IS NOT Michael.

In order to prove it is Michael they set the parameters as such from the very beginning.

That's why from the very beginning I complained that they actually never ever compared the voice to Jason Malachi's. As I said, if a certain percentage matches Michael's voice (which is intentionally meant to be in order to dupe people) we have no slightest idea what percentage it matches Jason's voice.


Here's the most interesting part of the article:

[...] Mad enough to send the fakes to a friend at the Music Technology Group in Barcelona, who's got the best voice recognition software money can buy. "They can use it to prove it's not Michael Jackson. But even then, in the court room they have no legal standing as the parameters are set by a human being" he sighs. "There's nothing we can do but spread the word that they're fake and people shouldn't buy this." [...]
 
Here is the main part:

I´m quite fan of Michael Jackson"

"Anyway, a few weeks ago Sony Music decided to stream a "new" track called Breaking news. When i heard it i was devastated!. The production is crap and the singer is definitely not Michael Jackson! I was very angry and now they´re releasing an album. I´ve heard a leaked version of it and there are three faked tracks" It´s not right, I´m pretty mad with this situation."

Mad enought to send the fakes to a a friend at the Music Technology Group in Barcelona, who´s got the best voice recognition software money can buy.

"They can use it to prove it´s not Michael Jackson. But even then,in court room they have no legal standing as the parameters are set by a human being." He sighs. "There´s nothing we can do but spread the world that they´re fake and people shouldn´t buy into this".

"Music is very important. Any music= from classical to jazz, to what i do, to Michael Jackson. Music has so much meaning for me and you and so many people. For big corporations to use a situation like his to make many millions is really against everything i stand for. Anything with Michael Jackson´s name on will make a lot of money... this needs to be addressed."
 
Last edited:
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

As I said, if a certain percentage matches Michael's voice (which is intentionally meant to be in order to dupe people) we have no slightest idea what percentage it matches Jason's voice.

Well the chances of matching Michael's voice, in terms of percentage, are increased when you copy and paste legitimate Michael Jackson vocals into bogus songs. That's why I mentioned it earlier, why are there NO copy and paste ad libs in the other 7 songs on the album? Hollywood Tonight isn't even complete! Where are the copy and paste vocals on that???
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well the chances of matching Michael's voice, in terms of percentage, are increased when you copy and paste legitimate Michael Jackson vocals into bogus songs. That's why I mentioned it earlier, why are there NO copy and paste ad libs in the other 7 songs on the album? Hollywood Tonight isn't even complete! Where are the copy and paste vocals on that???


Right, whichever method they used, they used it to dupe people.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Are the people here still interested in hiring a forensic musicologist?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I should ask that person in Barcelona with that Musical equipment:

Here is the web:

http://www.mtg.upf.edu/
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Are the people here still interested in hiring a forensic musicologist?

Are you asking the doubters or the believers?
 
Kapital77;3261879 said:
False, it´s not automated.

You can hide a comparison video with music from the "MICHAEL" album or music from Malachi if you don´t put a tittle and the most important thing... if you don´t put it on MJJC or MaxJax.

If you don´t put a tittle or tags and if you don´t show it on any MJ forum, they will not catch it. I can asure you that it´s not automathic and they will not find it.

They (Cascios or Malachi) enter MJJC and MaxJax and look for comparisons. I´m 10000% sure of this.

Actually it's automated and has nothing to do with the titles or such. see below

YouTube works with rights holders to ensure their material is not being used without permission on our site. To do this, we use proprietary technology to identify unique audio fingerprints within videos uploaded to the site.

If your video uses any music or sound that legally belongs to another person or company, our software may have identified it as content for which you haven't been given all the necessary rights.

The Content ID tool is the latest way YouTube offers copyright holders to easily identify and manage their content on YouTube. The tool creates ID files which are then run against user uploads and, if a match occurs, the copyright holders policy preferences are then applied to that video.


so basically they compare audio to audio.

BUMPER SNIPPET;3261819 said:
Right, right, Michael Jackson's songs are extremely difficult to detect.

they do not do the comparison or auto detect / removal on their own - you need to file a copyright claim with them. (otherwise it would be millions of songs with millions of videos and comparisons)

I did this before with youtube for our band- first they asked for an identification - which we did by faxing them a signed document from our label with the names of the people authorized. then we send them the names of the songs and the songs - which went into their automated system. now they ran the comparisons and remove them as we asked them to. Honestly I haven't checked to see how fast they work.

I'm also an authorized representative for our band (they have my name in their records) - which allows me to send them manual requests which they remove within 12 hours no questions asked.

Before going into authorization process (proving our identities to youtube) it was also possible to fill out a separate form each time with your information and ask them "evaluate" the copyright issue. They would make a decision in 48 hours in that case. Depending on what they thought they might remove or leave the videos.

so in short if there's a request for "Breaking news" it would be removed , if there's no request for "smooth criminal" it would be left as it is.


Pentum;3261811 said:
Yeah, but if they get removed automaticly, like Ivy and that "Korgnex" dude say, why a week? When I post BN, Monster, KYHU, it takes only a a day or three before they get removed. Because people report it?

depends I guess. It's hard to know what exactly they are using. It could be automated and manual , a mixture.

Pentum;3261815 said:
What about Soundcloud? They have the same system as Youtube? Stuff gets removed everytime I post on MaxJax or MJJC.

Did you check their terms of services? Do they have a copyright claim possibility?

If I'm not mistaken law says in US if someone gets a copyright claim they need to respond to it in 48 hours. It would depend on where soundcloud is located.
 
ivy;3262162 said:
Actually it's automated and has nothing to do with the titles or such. see below

YouTube works with rights holders to ensure their material is not being used without permission on our site. To do this, we use proprietary technology to identify unique audio fingerprints within videos uploaded to the site.

If your video uses any music or sound that legally belongs to another person or company, our software may have identified it as content for which you haven't been given all the necessary rights.

The Content ID tool is the latest way YouTube offers copyright holders to easily identify and manage their content on YouTube. The tool creates ID files which are then run against user uploads and, if a match occurs, the copyright holders policy preferences are then applied to that video.


so basically they compare audio to audio.

Yeahh, that´s right when you reupload the same code of audio. But when you reupload the video in other format, You tube can´t find and catch it because it doesn´t match with the erased video. It doesn´t match with the ID files of the erased video. The new video has a new ID and a new code.

:punk:

That´s why Eddie & Porte & Malachi are always looking for videos on MJJC or MAXJAX.
 
Last edited:
Kapital77;3262167 said:
Yeahh, that´s right when you upload the same code of audio. But when you reupload the video in other format, You tube can´t find and catch it because it doesn´t match with the erased video. It doesn´t match with the ID files of the erased video. The new video has a new ID and a new code.

:punk:

read the part that says : identify unique audio fingerprints

they compare audio to audio.

then google to see how you can fool the youtube auto identifier system

hint : under 30 second of audio or 5% change is needed to fool the system.

See results to what fools the system and what doesn't here : http://www.csh.rit.edu/~parallax/

------------------------------------

YouTube narrowly avoided legal trouble by promising the big media companies that they'd develop a system that could detect and automatically remove any copyrighted material that was uploaded to the site. But in reality, they didn't actually develop the audio fingerprinting system; they licensed it from a company called Audible Magic.

Audible Magic originally wrote software for CD duplication companies. When you handed a master disc off to a duplication house, they'd check it with an Audible Magic system first. The goal was to positively identify every song on the disc, as well as the copyright/licensing status, before the company ran off 10,000 copies of your potentially pirated disc.

YouTube jumped at this technology and worked to integrate it into their site. It scanned over all the uploads and generated a "fingerprint" for each video. It would then compare each fingerprint to a database containing practically every copyrighted work that the media companies wanted to keep off the site. If any videos matched, it was assumed that the user has posted copyrighted material without permission and the infringing video was removed.

... About the Content ID System

It's everywhere: It scans every single newly-uploaded video, no matter if it has a title/description that seems suspicious. It generally finds them mere minutes after the upload completes. And videos uploaded before the system was installed aren't immune either. It looks like it's going through every single video that has ever been uploaded to the site, looking for copyright problems. It sounds ludicrous, but remember that YouTube is backed by Google, and Google has plenty of hardware to throw around. I have no doubt that they'll eventually trudge through every single video, if they haven't already finished. I wonder how much CPU time (and electricity) they squandered on this?

It's surprisingly resilient: I really thought it would fail some of the amplification tests. Especially the +/-48 dB tests. One was so inaudibly quiet, and the other was so distorted it was completely unlistenable. It found all of them. Likewise, it could detect the sound amidst constant background noise, until the noise level passed the 45% mark. With that much noise, it overpowers the song you're trying to hide. Likewise, it catches all subtle changes in pitch and tempo, requiring changes of up to 5% before it consistently fails to identify material.

It's rather finicky: I can't explain why it was able to detect the camcorder-recorded audio at 5' and 31', but not at 12'. Similarly, the vocal removal/isolation tests should've had similar results. But then again, the effectiveness of the Stereo Imagery tests depends entirely on how the song itself was engineered -- Just because it turned out one way for this song, that doesn't mean it will react the same way to the other songs with that same modification.

It's downright dumb: Wrap your heads around this. When I muted the beginning of the song up until 0:30 (leaving the rest to play) the fingerprinter missed it. When I kept the beginning up until 0:30 and muted everything from 0:30 to the end, the fingerprinter caught it. That indicates that the content database only knows about something in the first 30 seconds of the song. As long as you cut that part off, you can theoretically use the remainder of the song without being detected. I don't know if all samples in the content database suffer from similar weaknesses, but it's something that merits further research.

It seems to hear in mono: When I uploaded the files with out-of-phase audio, the tests consistently passed. When the first out-of-phase test is played back in mono, the resulting audio sounds exactly like the Vocal Remove test (which also passed). When the mono-converted/out-of-phase test is played back in mono, both the channels cancel each other out and the result is (theoretically) silence. This is what the fingerprinter hears, and what it bases its conclusions on.

.
 
Kapital77;3262167 said:
Yeahh, that´s right when you reupload the same code of audio. But when you reupload the video in other format, You tube can´t find and catch it because it doesn´t match with the erased video. It doesn´t match with the ID files of the erased video. The new video has a new ID and a new code.

:punk:


Lol at :punk:
 
ivy;3262170 said:
read the part that says : identify unique audio fingerprints

they compare audio to audio.

then google to see how you can fool the youtube auto identifier system

hint : under 30 second of audio or 5% change is needed to fool the system.

It´s so easy to fool You tube, that´s why, day after day, many fans reupload the same video....

[youtube]Lw8lf7THIA4[/youtube]

That was erased the day before.

[youtube]ZqcDguE711c[/youtube]

OK?.

:punk: x2.

PD- That video don´t has tags or tittle, how many hours do you think it will stay on You Tube?.

Not much, Cascios read the MJJC and MAXJAX to erase the new comparisons.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Read this : http://www.csh.rit.edu/~parallax/

and also read the part that it says the automated system needs "30 seconds of continuous audio".

most probably these "copy/paste" comparison videos as they do not have the 30 seconds continuous audio is not detected by the automated system and some representative is manually reporting them to youtube.
 
Kapital77;3262167 said:
Yeahh, that´s right when you reupload the same code of audio. But when you reupload the video in other format, You tube can´t find and catch it because it doesn´t match with the erased video. It doesn´t match with the ID files of the erased video. The new video has a new ID and a new code.

:punk:

That´s why Eddie & Porte & Malachi are always looking for videos on MJJC or MAXJAX.



You don't seem to know much about technology and copyright infringement counter-measures.
They are able to track alterations.

As the word is: The ones shouting out loud are often the ones without the essential knowledge.



Kapital77 said:
Cascios read the MJJC and MAXJAX to erase the new comparisons.

Very uneducated. A statement from you that shows that you have a severe lack of knowledge on this matter.




BUT please remember, Kapital77:
I do NOT have any personal issue with you.
You have to learn that when you're making that many postings with pure nonsense about issues you don't understand, but think you would, there'll be someone (like me e.g.) that will counter and wise you up and you should learn to accept this.
In the past you seemed to think I'd be fighting against you. However this has NEVER been the case. I'm here participating in a discussion and I'm here to correct you when I see sth that you've written that is definitely wrong.

;)
 
Last edited:
ivy;3262190 said:
Read this : http://www.csh.rit.edu/~parallax/

and also read the part that it says the automated system needs "30 seconds of continuous audio".

most probably these "copy/paste" comparison videos as they do not have the 30 seconds continuous audio is not detected by the automated system and some representative is manually reporting them to youtube.

Yeahh, you end telling me exactly what i talked to you.

Cascios call You tube to erase the new comparisons.

It´s not automated.

And it´s not detected by the system because it has a new code and new ID, not for the 30 seconds argument because i saw how, other comparison reuploaded, were erased at the end of the upload.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well the chances of matching Michael's voice, in terms of percentage, are increased when you copy and paste legitimate Michael Jackson vocals into bogus songs. That's why I mentioned it earlier, why are there NO copy and paste ad libs in the other 7 songs on the album? Hollywood Tonight isn't even complete! Where are the copy and paste vocals on that???

This is exactly it! It does detect SOMETHING...So, they tested the vocals, but lied that it concluded '100% Michael Jackson on lead vocals'...according to the statement...

Agreed....Spread the word...Make people aware...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Are the people here still interested in hiring a forensic musicologist?

For all those that needed 'proof', the MTG result is 'proof' that it's not Michael Jackson on these records. I trust Orsten a hell of a lot more than I trust Sony and the Estate.

I didn't need any proof. It begins with the fact that the songs didn't sound anything like Michael Jackson.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Are the people here still interested in hiring a forensic musicologist?

didn't max-jax contacted one and he said it would be a waste of time and money?
 
Korgnex;3262193 said:
You don't seem to know much about technology and copyright infringement counter-measures.
They are able to track alterations.

Yeahh, I´M SEEING IT RIGHT NOW:

[youtube]Lw8lf7THIA4[/youtube]

That was erased the day before.

[youtube]ZqcDguE711c[/youtube]

:tease:

Korgnex;3262193 said:
Very uneducated. A statement from you that shows that you have a severe lack of knowledge on this matter.

You have severe lack of knowledge about how Mj sound (you are fooled with JM) and i don´t say you are not educated.

Korgnex;3262193 said:
BUT please remember, Kapital77:

You have to learn that when you're making that many postings with pure nonsense about issues you don't understand, but think you would, there'll be someone (like me e.g.) that will counter and wise you up and you should learn to accept this.

Nosense? I demostrated that you can repuload the same video and You Tube can´t catch it.

This is not nosense, THIS IS A FACT.
 
Last edited:
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

didn't max-jax contacted one and he said it would be a waste of time and money?

I don't know, they've helped to make Sony some millions...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Completely pointless discussion going on right now.

Again, videos being taken down for copyright infringement adds nothing whatsoever to the Jason Malachi argument. Again, nothing.

It is all automated and no one has an agenda to keep people from hearing these audio comparison videos! :lol:
 
Back
Top