Michael - The Great Album Debate

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

love is magical, most of those songs have complete demo instrumentation and mixed demo vocals. I'm talking about demo tapes, like actual first ever thought recorded down into a tape recorder, like with The Girl is Mine, hearing him say 'strings...' and talking to himself, randomly going into a different song, etc.

do the cascio demos sound like "actual first ever though recorded down into a tape recorder" then?

i'm actually looking for "non-existing" or "destoryed" raw demos.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The way I see it, he recorded sitting down in the shower, just to relax and that it was the most convenient and appropriate place to record. He probably used the PVC pipe in the basement area because, well the shower doesn't look that big.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Which is why I asked if he did several experimentations on his vocals in a single track. Right now, the Cascios seem to be telling me that Michael recorded in a basement for effect A on his voice, recorded in a bathroom for effect B, recorded while sitting down in that bathroom for effect C (if you can call it one), recorded through a PVC pipe for effect D, and had further productions on these tracks (based on what Teddy says, that the tracks were already produced) for effect E.

So, I'm wondering, is Michael known to do this number of experimentations on his vocals on one, single track?

I don't think basement was for effect or could cause an effect - that's where the studio/equipment was. and I haven't heard any difference between recording in the second or third floor of a building. You generally put home studios in basement / in ground with the aim that the noise wouldn't disturb the neighbors.

also I don't think sitting down causes any effect either - it just can limit your airflow / diaphram and you might have harder time hitting the high notes.

as for E) production effects are normal aren't they? for D) he used a similar method before so you are actually only left with "shower vocal effect" .

 

[wolfrevenant]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I don't know. But none of us are Michael and none of us know his every thought, intention and action. So wondering what he might or might not have tried is pretty pointless.

True. But some others seem to confirm that this is something Michael would do, hence implying that they know how he works in the studio, which led me to ask whether this is something Michael has done before.

Some even gave reasons for the Cascios: "maybe he didn't warm up", "maybe it's because he didn't sing for such a long time", "maybe he wanted to try something new".

But hey, it's what all of us have to go by these days. "What Michael would have wanted", is how we now function.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

True. But some others seem to confirm that this is something Michael would do, hence implying that they know how he works in the studio, which led me to ask whether this is something Michael has done before.

Some even gave reasons for the Cascios: "maybe he didn't warm up", "maybe it's because he didn't sing for such a long time", "maybe he wanted to try something new".

But hey, it's what all of us have to go by these days. "What Michael would have wanted", is how we now function.

Very good point! :agree:

If it's valid to assume Michael didn't warm up or was not ready, it's also valid to ask would Michael sing in a shower?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thinking Michael never sang a bad note is just completely false. You're falling into the legends about him that people have created over the years. He was a person just like all of us and he did have off vocal days, for a fact.

I don't think these songs sound that off, though, like I've said, All I Need is especially a beautiful song. I think he sounds strong throughout the whole thing, except for the robotic vibrato in just a couple spots... But I truly think there could be many explanations for it.

You can't automatically conclude, just from a shaky vibrato, that it's Jason Malachi. You just can't...

 

[wolfrevenant]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I don't think basement was for effect or could cause an effect - that's where the studio/equipment was. and I haven't heard any difference between recording in the second or third floor of a building. You generally put home studios in basement / in ground with the aim that the noise wouldn't disturb the neighbors.

also I don't think sitting down causes any effect either - it just can limit your airflow / diaphram and you might have harder time hitting the high notes.

Well, some fans said that the basement recording thing would affect someone's voice, so I thought that was part of the "effects" that made him sound different.

I just added the "sitting down" thing since they mentioned it as another reason. Could have said that Michael recorded in the bathroom, but they said he recorded in the bathroom whilst sitting down, so...

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Eddie Cascio looks as if he's hiding something when talking about his songs. He's purposely vague and looks shifty as hell.

 

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

All twelve songs from the Cascios were recorded as Michael was sitting down in the shower, or just the three?

Based on what I've come up so far (pardon if I've missed out some points), the results on Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up and Monster are due to:

Recording in a basement +
Recording in the shower whilst sitting down +
Recording through a PVC pipe +
Not singing for some time +
Not warming up +
Wanting to try something new +
Production from the Cascios +
Some more production from Teddy Riley

Thus, resulting in the Michael we hear on the tracks, who seems to have a different accent, vibrato, tone, timbre, and so on.


Right now, I'm just trying to picture Michael sitting in the shower, in the basement, holding a PVC pipe and singing through it, whilst Eddie is there pushing buttons or something. But overall, it's really quite the stretch of the imagination. Nevertheless, it's not my place to say how Michael records his songs, since I'm not in the "know" of how he works in the studio.

So, I'll just ask this:

Is Michael known to experiment a lot (such as: using different environments besides the usual professional studio, using a variety of mediums to sing through, or just plain singing differently) for recording a single song?

Fantastic post! I can't believe that some people are working so hard to defend these f-ing songs. I could possibly understand it a bit more if they were classics. But, come on?

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yeah it's astonishing to me the lengths that some will go to explaining away and defending these abominable tracks.

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Mama say mama got you in a zigzag

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It actually doesn't seem like that much of a length... Doubters just over exaggerate by saying the excuses are so many when it's just like one or two. He was recording a low quality environment and they were rough vocals that were processed for a studio album release. There aren't all these reasons and nobody says he sounds so drastically different.

Last I checked most people just automatically hear the vibrato and go 'It's not Michael Jackson!' when there are easy explanations for that rather than conclude it's JM's, and the vibrato doesn't sound like Jason's anyway.

 

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thinking Michael never sang a bad note is just completely false. You're falling into the legends about him that people have created over the years. He was a person just like all of us and he did have off vocal days, for a fact.

I don't think these songs sound that off, though, like I've said, All I Need is especially a beautiful song. I think he sounds strong throughout the whole thing, except for the robotic vibrato in just a couple spots... But I truly think there could be many explanations for it.

You can't automatically conclude, just from a shaky vibrato, that it's Jason Malachi. You just can't...

Singing a bad note is one thing. Sounding like a completely different person is altogether different. To take just one example, the voice of the person who sings "And you're running, And you're running just to scape it" in the 2nd verse of Monster DOES NOT belong to Michael Jackson. This is not the result of "shaky vibrato". Could you please just listen to these 10 words in the song and let me know what you think? Do these 10 simple words really sound like Michael Jackson to you?

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thinking Michael never sang a bad note is just completely false. You're falling into the legends about him that people have created over the years. He was a person just like all of us and he did have off vocal days, for a fact.

I don't think these songs sound that off, though, like I've said, All I Need is especially a beautiful song. I think he sounds strong throughout the whole thing, except for the robotic vibrato in just a couple spots... But I truly think there could be many explanations for it.

You can't automatically conclude, just from a shaky vibrato, that it's Jason Malachi. You just can't...

I didn't make this up. The sound engineer during the HIStory recording session said that. He said he's extremely impressed with Michael's work ethics and he never heard him sang a bad note. Bruce Swedien said every single one of Michael Jackson's song is special.

I'm not worshiping Michael here. I realize he's a human like you and I. I'm sure he has his bad days. But, what set him apart are his unique talents and his extraordinary work ethics.

The legend about Michael Jackson is not fabricated. It's true. Every single one of Michael's collaborator, from Quicy Jones to Michael Bearden said how extraordinarily talented Michael Jackson was. Every single one of them complimented on how impressive Michael Jackson's skills were. Michael Jackson was extraodinary. He's capable of achieving what most other individuals cannot do.

Now, you are saying the Cascio tracks don't sound "that" off. If they are not that bad, why all these over-processing is necessary to fix them? What other Michael Jackson demos needed to go through all these productions?

When you listen to Stay or All I Need, do you feel a particular Michael Jackson moment? Lines and notes that only Michael Jackson can make it work? Any Michael Jackson magic and sparks?

All I Need is a beautiful song, but a generic song the same time. Okay, it's a demo. But, a genius is a genius. A genius would not hold back his awesomeness just because he's singing a demo. His sparks would always be there. Just like when he sang Human Nature and I'll Be There during TII rehearsal, he's clearly holding back; yet, the magic sizzles.

I mean Michael Jackson could never sound flat. It's aginst his nature. No matter how much he held back, he still sizzled because he's just too gifted as a vocalist to sound flat and off.

 

[ivy]

Hmm food for thought - Info about Motown

The early recording sessions at Hitsville could be crude. To add echo to a voice, a singer recorded in the bathroom. As Gordy recalled in To Be Loved, "We had to post a guard outside the door to make sure no one flushed the toilet while we were recording." But Motown's producers and musicians were also creative, using any object they could find to get the right sound.

Read more: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/businesses/M-Z/Motown-Records.html#ixzz1EEmksFZU

To achieve the Motown sound, an effort was made to duplicate the effects one hear’s in a bathroom. An enterprising craftsmen walled in a portion of the attic ceiling and all songs were mixed there. The hole or entry for the place still exists today. Quite simple but VERY effective.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/12/thestreet-com-motown-records-of-the-financial-web/


From motown : Music, money , sex and power book

threads about creating the Motown Bathroom Effect and using /re-amping a bathroom

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...09-emulating-vintage-motown-chambers-itb.html

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=37626&sid=43b35e22aa0ecfeee935b9cba3612b65

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There is so much more to it Aniram.
Denial is a powerful thing.
Some people are more questioning of perceived authority and 'expert' knowledge than others. I tend to question things and trust my instinct and common sense. others just accept what they are told.
Ivy, i don't hear much of a 'motown' effect on the Cascio vocals? Do you?

 

[analogue]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well i heard that he recorded these songs while lying in his Hyperbaric chamber with the Elephant Man's bones next to him

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I watched the Making of Michael last night. I like how Neff U shared Michael's notes and played the tape with Michael's beautiful words.

Eddie Cascio had another platform to show some evidence to add to his credibility as Michael's producer. Again, absolutely nothing, but a tour of his shower? He should at least show us what buttons he pushed...

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ivy, i don't hear much of a 'motown' effect on the Cascio vocals? Do you?

remember my posts from yesterday? the one I asked what if there was reverb and echo due to shower booth and they tried to remove them /correct them with melodyne etc? how much effect / distortion would that clean up will have on the vocals?

that's what I wonder.

 

[Anna]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

remember my posts from yesterday? the one I asked what if there was reverb and echo due to shower booth and they tried to remove them /correct them with melodyne etc? how much effect / distortion would that clean up will have on the vocals?

that's what I wonder.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The vibrato especially on those tracks sounds digitally altered.

 

[lom kit]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Lom kit. The songs were not always for Michael Jackson. The songs were for James Porte aka Bobby Ewing's album.

thats what i'm saying. the lyrics in BN were about MJ. the song was for someone other Porte, Malach, cascio's poolboy. who cares.

i don't understand why you guys don't realise, especially the belivers, that searching for excesses why the vocals are so different and coming with strangest, ridicules AND dumbest reasons, proves even more how fake the whole thing is.
He was experimenting different things. BS. He was experimenting different vocals in bed, that's it!

And for you, who don't hear the almost perfect resemblance of the JM's vocal over the BN instrumental with BN original song, it's not you don't hear it, you don't want to hear it. even the vocals are taken from a low youtube video, it's one and the same voice. the fake vibratio, the "i can sing like mj" voice is 1:1.

I don't give a s*it, what teddy riley says. he lost my respect. I liked the songs which he produced on the Invincible album, much more over the Jerkings songs. And Dangerous is my favourite of all. But now, screw him and the rest of the gang.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I didn't make this up. The sound engineer during the HIStory recording session said that. He said he's extremely impressed with Michael's work ethics and he never heard him sang a bad note. Bruce Swedien said every single one of Michael Jackson's song is special.

Okay, first of all, there's a difference between saying every single note of Michael Jackson's song is special than saying he's never heard Michael sing a bad note. I wouldn't be surprised if he actually DID say that, though, Michael is a very talented singer. I don't hear a bad note on the Cascio tracks, do you?

I'm not worshiping Michael here. I realize he's a human like you and I. I'm sure he has his bad days. But, what set him apart are his unique talents and his extraordinary work ethics.

True, and I agree with you.

The legend about Michael Jackson is not fabricated. It's true. Every single one of Michael's collaborator, from Quicy Jones to Michael Bearden said how extraordinarily talented Michael Jackson was. Every single one of them complimented on how impressive Michael Jackson's skills were. Michael Jackson was extraodinary. He's capable of achieving what most other individuals cannot do.

Very true, and I agree with you. There ARE legends, however, about Michael that are exaggerated or not true.

Now, you are saying the Cascio tracks don't sound "that" off. If they are not that bad, why all these over-processing is necessary to fix them? What other Michael Jackson demos needed to go through all these productions?

When you listen to Stay or All I Need, do you feel a particular Michael Jackson moment? Lines and notes that only Michael Jackson can make it work? Any Michael Jackson magic and sparks?

They needed processing because they're appearing on an official studio release and they're being reworked to new instruments. This is a bit of a challenge for a producer to get to sound like a professionally finished song. Of course, the vocals probably weren't off key or anything, they were probably just way too quiet in areas, not timed right here and there, too loud, distorted, muffled, etc. It's not that MICHAEL SOUNDED BAD, it's that the AUDIO sounded bad and needed processing, which strips out frequencies and gives a more artificial sound, because they want it to have this amazing sound quality when it's not. Again, Michael wasn't off key, but the quality of the audio and the time changes were what needed the most processing.

All I Need is a beautiful song, but a generic song the same time. Okay, it's a demo. But, a genius is a genius. A genius would not hold back his awesomeness just because he's singing a demo. His sparks would always be there. Just like when he sang Human Nature and I'll Be There during TII rehearsal, he's clearly holding back; yet, the magic sizzles.

I mean Michael Jackson could never sound flat. It's aginst his nature. No matter how much he held back, he still sizzled because he's just too gifted as a vocalist to sound flat and off.

I disagree here. I think he shines in All I Need. You may not think so, but the song gives me chills when I listen to it. I am in love with it and Stay.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Gotta agree. All I Need gives me chills, too. Down to the bone.

 

[mehdiblanket]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I watched the Making of Michael last night. I like how Neff U shared Michael's notes and played the tape with Michael's beautiful words.

Eddie Cascio had another platform to show some evidence to add to his credibility as Michael's producer. Again, absolutely nothing, but a tour of his shower? He should at least show us what buttons he pushed...

l can't see better than this ,l agree l feel Cascio is lying ,he doesn't seem sincere like Neff U

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well i heard that he recorded these songs while lying in his Hyperbaric chamber with the Elephant Man's bones next to him

This actually made me laugh out loud on the train home!

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

When I go home and jump in the shower tonight, will it make me sound like Jason Malachi? Just asking...

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Just remove the 'motown' effect first and add some melodyne and hey presto!

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hard to believe it happened with zero proof.Eddie isn't very convincing either. On oprah all he could muster was that he was there pushing buttons while michael directed and in this latest video he claims michael recorded in the shower, spoke about their friendship and said 'we had what we had and we got the job done' eddie's eyes seem to glaze over when talking about the tracks.I wish eddie would elaborate on that, what exactly did eddie have? What exactly was sent into the copyright office 2 days after mj died? The fully completed lead vocals of the tracks we have heard? I have a huge difficulty believing that.

I find it comical how people who most likely have no direct knowledge in how to spot a lie, can claim, and be so sure someone isn't being honest. Also, realize how hypocritical that thought is, "it's hard to believe he recorded these songs, when there's no proof he did". Yet, we're in denial for saying "It's hard to believe this is one huge scam and these are Jason Malachi's vocals, when there's no proof to support it". Come on, it's obvious the recent video, isn't really that recent at all, each and every one of them are speaking in past tense, they all say "The album is going to be great", "I think fans will enjoy it", which means most, if not all of that footage, was shot before the album came out and before the Cascios ever went on Oprah, use some common sense, people.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Also, fans always want more info than record companies and even the artists themselves seem to give.

A lot of people don't go blabbering about everything that happened. People are always complaining, with any celebrity, politician, etc, 'I wish they would have talked about [insert something] more... '

When MJ came out and said his select few words to the crowd for This Is It, were you complaining that he was way too vague and there was no real proof that he'd even be doing these shows?

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's not Michael Jackson singing the Cascio songs we've heard so far.