Michael - The Great Album Debate

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

How do we know that solid work was done on the original instrumentation? The way I see it, 99% of the writing was done by Eddie and Porte, so MJ had no reason to really write notes to them. Plus, the registration of the songs didn't cover instrumentation, right? I'm thinking that they probably got a few chords down but the project fizzled out because of MJ's busy schedule in late 2007-2008, then the "This Is It" announcement the following year.

Acutally, you just decribed how filmsy and appalling the Cascio tracks are. So, based on your assumption, Michael bascially didn't write the songs. He didn't work on the instrumentations. He might sing a few lines in the shower. He probably didn't even give the songs too much thought; hence, never registered the songs. Bottom line, he couldn't care less about the songs.

Fast forward, after his death, his friends have these tapes with Michael's few lines; although the quality of the recording is bad and the vocals are incomplete, the friends sold the songs. The friends did whatever they could to dress up the rough recordings and relase the songs. The friends claim they do it for the fans. Yeah right...

I know I'm getting into the ethics debate...

 

[Alec]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

some people said that Cascio's are coming up with new excuses/explanations as time passes by - they claimed Cascio's are mentioning shower booth now 4 months later as a new excuse - meaning they are adding to /changing their story.

Other have pointed out that the video hasn't been shot recently hence it's not a new excuse/explanation.

It doesn't matter really. What matters to me is that even though there's something obviously wrong with the vocals on 5 songs that are from the same source and Michael Jackson doesn't sound like himself on them (for the first time ever), Eddie Cascio, who claims the songs are real and originally worked on them, doesn't provide any kind of proof or detailed explanation as to why it is this way. Instead of coming out to the fans and talking to us, he's in the hiding the past four months.
Good thing's that at least he's not as vulgar as Riley - who, after Taryll said his (TRs) initial reaction to the vocals was different - publicly called him a fag.

It is also - in the first place - The Estate's job to handle this, and they failed BIG time. The communication with fans is terrible. It seems there's an internal conflict between Branca and McClain. It just doesn't look good and I'm worried about future Michael Jackson projects.

 

[Alec]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I absolutely GUARANTEE you, just from knowledge of human psychology, that if "Hollywood Tonight" or "Best of Joy" had leaked in advance and been mistakenly labelled as a Cascio track, they would have been widely rejected as fake by most doubters here.

And in the same way, if KYHU had been leaked as a, say, Rodney Jerkins song from 2001, everybody would have called it an obviously REAL MJ track.

It's all psychological, man. Which is shown even more to be so by poster Alec's story, that he couldn't sleep all night after first hearing BN. Such was the shock of hearing Breaking News -- because it was based on a guide vocal and had been overprocessed -- that some people never got over that first psychological impression of "fakeness".

If their first contact with the Cascio tracks had been KYHU, which sounds much more like classic MJ, today's doubters would be today's believers.

Are you a psychologist? Funny things is I am one too, for real.
No, you're absolutely wrong. If there was any Cascio song that sounds like Michael Jackson always did - like he does on Hollywood Tonight and Best Of Joy - I'd embrace it as much as I do the two songs and his entire back catalogue.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

EDIT: Nevermind, just saw who I was replying to.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@Alec

I agree that the communication / information has been not so good. But I wonder that if people on this thread realizes that everyone (media, public, sony, estate, cascio's, musicians Michael worked with etc) including the Jackson's has moved on from this topic and we are the only ones left still discussing it?

As far as I can see every single fan has made up their mind and trying to change it would be a futile attempt. I asked this several times on this thread "what would change your mind?" and I got the answers that picture, hand written notes wouldn't be enough , even if there was a footage that can be faked as well. We even have people on this thread that says even Michael comes back from the grave and tells them he's singing they wouldn't change their minds. Then look to last few days discussion people say even if we can conclude the vocals to be actually Michael's still ethics or selling / releasing such doubtful / low quality songs will still be an issue. See what I mean by a futile attempt?

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I absolutely GUARANTEE you, just from knowledge of human psychology, that if "Hollywood Tonight" or "Best of Joy" had leaked in advance and been mistakenly labelled as a Cascio track, they would have been widely rejected as fake by most doubters here.

And in the same way, if KYHU had been leaked as a, say, Rodney Jerkins song from 2001, everybody would have called it an obviously REAL MJ track.

It's all psychological, man. Which is shown even more to be so by poster Alec's story, that he couldn't sleep all night after first hearing BN. Such was the shock of hearing Breaking News -- because it was based on a guide vocal and had been overprocessed -- that some people never got over that first psychological impression of "fakeness".

If their first contact with the Cascio tracks had been KYHU, which sounds much more like classic MJ, today's doubters would be today's believers.

Please stop making assumptions for others.

First, Best of Joy is a genuine Michael Jackson track. It doesn't matter who produced the track.

Second, Keep Your Head Up is far from a classic MJ. I don't even dislike the song. But, to say it's a "modern day" KTF cannot be more inaccurate.

The Cascio tracks are tainted becasue it just happens so that all songs from that one producer sound off. Not one, not two, but all three of them.

 

[MJRemixed]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Lol. Eddie is hilarious, he really is. How did he even come up with such an idea? Lol!

Because he is young and stupid. Thats pretty much it.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Are you a psychologist? Funny things is I am one too, for real.
No, you're absolutely wrong. If there was any Cascio song that sounds like Michael Jackson always did - like he does on Hollywood Tonight and Best Of Joy - I'd embrace it as much as I do the two songs and his entire back catalogue.

Interesting point. Let's say the three Cascio tracks are Breaking News, Hollywood Tonight and Best of Joy. I think there won't be any vocal authenticity discussion. I'll just accept that Michael recorded one bad song in his life. Breaking News just happened to be the bad apple.

 

[MattyJam]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'll tell you what bothers me... I hate the way the estate spin the line of this being the album MJ was working on prior to his death. How can we trust a single word they say? They claim MJ wanted HMH to be the lead single from his next album and yet it barely even features MJ's vocals. The song had been leaked on the internet and shelved off Akon's own album for two years before MJ's passing and they expect us to believe MJ was intending to release it as his lead single? Do they think we're stupid? They also claim Best of Joy was the last song he recorded and that MJ worked on HT in 2007. Something tells me that's a lie. If MJ had lived to make another album I doubt any of the songs on "Michael" would've ended up on it.

Lenny Kravitz claims that Michael was saving Another Day for his next album.... really Lenny? So MJ would've taken a decade old song which Lenny himself released a version of in 2004 and put it on his new album?

And don't even get me started on Eddie Cascio's wannabe-MJ songs.

All these people spinning lies about these songs is just frustrating. The likelihood is, MJ was probably very inactive in his latter years and was not even intending on releasing another album any time soon. Why can't they just be truthful and market this album as a collection of unreleased songs rather than trying to promote it as being the new album he never got to finish?

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Interesting point. Let's say the three Cascio tracks are Breaking News, Hollywood Tonight and Best of Joy. I think there won't be any vocal authenticity discussion. I'll just accept that Michael recorded one bad song in his life. Breaking News just happened to be the bad apple.

I actually have several friends who believe Hollywood Tonight to be fake and I have to tell them "that's not a Cascio song".

 

[MJRemixed]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Have you noticed on that video all the other guys have detailed, descriptive accounts of working with michael. Yet Eddie's account is so vague and thoughtless. He can't even talk about KYHU properly - he didn't even explain or know what the song was about.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I actually have several friends who believe Hollywood Tonight to be fake and I have to tell them "that's not a Cascio song".

May I ask how serious MJ fans your friends are? Can your friends say they grow up listening to Michael Jackson? Can your friends say they are familiar with the characteristic of MJ's voice? If you show pictures of E'Cass and MJ to your friends, can they tell them apart?

Hollywood Tonight does sound different because of the processing, right? But, we heard enough of Michael Jackson songs to know the voice in the song is Michael Jackson's. Have your friends heard the not-so-popular MJ songs, such as Threatened, before?

 

[Alec]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@Alec

I agree that the communication / information has been not so good. But I wonder that if people on this thread realizes that everyone (media, public, sony, estate, cascio's, musicians Michael worked with etc) including the Jackson's has moved on from this topic and we are the only ones left still discussing it?

I do realize we're, sadly, the only ones left discussing the songs. Actually, I am surprised the media did not pick up on this. They're always the first to report anything on Jackson, but it seems the vocal authenticity did not interest them at all. Which I find really, really weird. It was the hottest MJ story since the trial and his death, imo.

As far as I can see every single fan has made up their mind and trying to change it would be a futile attempt. I asked this several times on this thread "what would change your mind?" and I got the answers that picture, hand written notes wouldn't be enough , even if there was a footage that can be faked as well. We even have people on this thread that says even Michael comes back from the grave and tells them he's singing they wouldn't change their minds. Then look to last few days discussion people say even if we can conclude the vocals to be actually Michael's still ethics or selling / releasing such doubtful / low quality songs will still be an issue. See what I mean by a futile attempt?

I can't say that a handwritten note would change my mind or a photo would convince me it's MJ on the songs. But I do know that I would feel very different if I saw Eddie Cascio was sincere and honest about the music and so were the other people involved. If Cascio openly discussed the vocals and - as I previously said - talked about his experiences of working on the songs, explained how they came up with this or that... It would make a big difference. As it is now, I heard 5 questionable songs, all from the same source (and there are said to be 12 of them). I also know that John McClain, the co-executor, for weeks opposed them being on the album but ultimately was outvoted. I know Michael's nephew and collaborator Cory Rooney asked for the songs to be left off the album but no one listened. I heard the songs and I agree with them. I also know there are dozens of better songs that should've been on the album - but, for unknown reasons, they are not.

To me this new album is a big slap in the face to Michael and his fans. IMO This Is It the movie was WONDERFULLY done and I was expecting as much from a music release that they had more than a year to work on.

Interesting point. Let's say the three Cascio tracks are Breaking News, Hollywood Tonight and Best of Joy. I think there won't be any vocal authenticity discussion. I'll just accept that Michael recorded one bad song in his life. Breaking News just happened to be the bad apple.

If there were 12 songs from the Cascios and only one of them was "different" (let it be Breaking News), I'd accept it.

 

[Alec]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

May I ask how serious MJ fans your friends are? Can your friends say they grow up listening to Michael Jackson? Can your friends say they are familiar with the characteristic of MJ's voice? If you show pictures of E'Cass and MJ to your friends, can they tell them apart?

Hollywood Tonight does sound different because of the processing, right? But, we heard enough of Michael Jackson songs to know the voice in the song is Michael Jackson's. Have your friends heard the not-so-popular MJ songs, such as Threatened, before?

I have a lot of friends who, after the press reports, believed it wasn't Michael at the TII announcement in March 2009. They are casual fans who like his music, but I doubt they could tell whether it's him or not had I shown them a pic of E'Casanova or Eddie Moss.
I also doubt they could tell a difference between MJ and a vocal impersonator. I know my mother can't, cause she doesn't breathe MJ every day of her life as I do.

Have you noticed on that video all the otehr guys have detailed, descriptive accounts of working with michael. Yet Eddie's account is so vague and thoughtless. He can't even talk about KYHU properly - he didn't even explain or know what the song was about.

I'd forgive him his bad memory if the songs did sound right... I just wouldn't care. But as I said, it's just that nothing about the music adds up. If they didn't sound right but Cascio was very open about it - I'd say I might be wrong. But EVERYTHING surrouding the tracks is shady. And on top of that, they don't sound like usual Michael Jackson vocals.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

May I ask how serious MJ fans your friends are? Can your friends say they grow up listening to Michael Jackson? Can your friends say they are familiar with the characteristic of MJ's voice? If you show pictures of E'Cass and MJ to your friends, can they tell them apart?

Hollywood Tonight does sound different because of the processing, right? But, we heard enough of Michael Jackson songs to know the voice in the song is Michael Jackson's. Have your friends heard the not-so-popular MJ songs, such as Threatened, before?

They are long time musical MJ fans but did not (and still don't) follow his personal life in detail (for example they know the Murray trial is coming soon but they wouldn't know what's happening in status hearings). We all went to MJ concerts in the past together, we all had tickets to TII. (17 years) They have all the albums and know all his released songs. so I'll say they have a pretty good idea about his voice. and yes they can tell apart E'Cass. and I wouldn't call them "casual" fans as for 3 tours (including TII) we traveled and willing to travel to other countries paying a good amount of money to watch MJ perform.

They knew the controversy about Breaking News (some thinks it's Michael, some don't) and knew that there were other Cascio songs but didn't know the names. After the album started streaming on MJ.com we were talking about and there were some who thought Hollywood Tonight to be one of the fakes.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

He can't even talk about KYHU properly - he didn't even explain or know what the song was about.

It's about a woman. Who works two jobs. And is looking for a job. While, at the same time, working in a restaurant. Night and day.

That's one busy woman.

What a load of old waffle... Michael Jackson recorded these songs in a shower while compressing his diaphragm - thereby limiting his ability to sing like Michael Jackson - while smoking a PVC crack pipe and melodyned into oblivion. All completely plausible.

What a joke.

Let's listen to the songs again, shall we...

Oh look... the voices are ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL... but we'll pretend that's not the case and we'll cling to the seller's completely ridiculous and outlandish claims just to support our own biased beliefs...

NOTHING is more damning than these videos!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xg6rr7_keep-your-head-up-all-i-need-comparison_music

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

See, that's exactly my point right there. You don't actually have a solid argument. You just like to make fun of everything people post to suggest why the songs may sound different. But you have no actual proof they are not Michael.

Exactly, when this thread first started, we have valid debates with each other, everything was great, people were respectful and all of that. Now, the doubters have had their once valid claims disputed with valid reasoning and it seems one side can't handle it and rather just make fun of the other side. It's gotten really childish and quite ridiculous if you ask me. Posting 3 year old "You Mad" gifs doesn't benefit your argument, it just makes you look like an ass.


Excuse the harsh wording.

What are you on about annie? Blabbering on. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Comparing eddie's inability to provide any tangible proof of mj recording those tracks with mj's this is it announcement is completely ridiculous annie. In all fairness in the context of all the doubt it is absolutely bizarre that eddie is unwilling to give us some proof, something convincing,.... Unless of course he doesn't have any...

Lol, excuse me, but what the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything about Michael's This Is It announcement. What's ridiculous is that you completely ignored the contents of my last post directed to you, then responded with this. LMAO.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's about a woman. Who works two jobs. And is looking for a job. While, at the same time, working in a restaurant. Night and day.

That's one busy woman.

He was singing about the financial crisis. Times are tough. Rogue mamas that get you in a zig zag are roaming the streets.

Exactly, when this thread first started, we have valid debates with each other, everything was great, people were respectful and all of that. Now, the doubters have had their once valid claims disputed with valid reasoning and it seems one side can't handle it and rather just make fun of the other side. It's gotten really childish and quite ridiculous if you ask me. Posting 3 year old "You Mad" gifs doesn't benefit your argument, it just makes you look like an ass.


Excuse the harsh wording.

Go for it. All the excuses were dealt with long ago, and are just being regurgitated. There's nothing left to talk about. It's the same old "you were brainwashed", "you've been psychologically influenced", "it's a PVC pipe" crap.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

They are long time musical MJ fans but did not (and still don't) follow his personal life in detail (for example they know the Murray trial is coming soon but they wouldn't know what's happening in status hearings). We all went to MJ concerts in the past together, we all had tickets to TII. (17 years) They have all the albums and know all his released songs. so I'll say they have a pretty good idea about his voice. and yes they can tell apart E'Cass. and I wouldn't call them "casual" fans as for 3 tours (including TII) we traveled and willing to travel to other countries paying a good amount of money to watch MJ perform.

They knew the controversy about Breaking News (some thinks it's Michael, some don't) and knew that there were other Cascio songs but didn't know the names. After the album started streaming on MJ.com we were talking about and there were some who thought Hollywood Tonight to be one of the fakes.

Interesting. Different people do hear things differently.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

one side can't handle it and rather just make fun of the other side..

You're talking about Michael Jackson recording 12 songs in a shower while sitting down and compressing his diaphragm. That's the level of your debate at this moment in time. If you can't see the ridiculousness of it then you should take a minute and think about that. In a shower. Sitting down. 12 songs.

It would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's about a woman. Who works two jobs. And is looking for a job. While, at the same time, working in a restaurant. Night and day.

That's one busy woman.

What a load of old waffle... Michael Jackson recorded these songs in a shower while compressing his diaphragm - thereby limiting his ability to sing like Michael Jackson - while smoking a PVC crack pipe and melodyned into oblivion. All completely plausible.

Sam, you forgot KYHU is also about ecology. The woman killing the life of the birds and the trrreeeeeessssss and sucking up the air from the earth underneth...

At the same time, it's also a love song. the singer needs some love and wishes love will come today...

Can someone please intrepret the true meaning of the song? I'm quite confused.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Sam, you forgot KYHU is also about ecology. The woman killing the life of the birds and the trrreeeeeessssss and sucking up the air from the earth underneth...

At the same time, it's also a love song. the singer needs some love and wishes love will come today...

Can someone please intrepret the true meaning of the song? I'm quite confused.

Sucking up the life from the earth from under 'me'. You gave the lyrics too much credit by correcting them!

 

[Alec]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

enjoy the genius:

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

He was singing about the financial crisis. Times are tough. Rogue mamas that get you in a zig zag are roaming the streets.



Go for it. All the excuses were dealt with long ago, and are just being regurgitated. There's nothing left to talk about. It's the same old "you were brainwashed", "you've been psychologically influenced", "it's a PVC pipe" crap.

Okay, now explain to me how this is any different from "It's a load of crap", "He used the shower as a booth, yea right". "You don't know Michael's voice", "He wouldn't write this crap". Please, I beg of you to tell me the difference, when the bottomline is, there isn't any proof to support you and your fellow doubters claims, NOTHING. Other than your own assumptions, there isn't anything objective at all to support the "fake vocals" claim, just like as of now, there's nothing objective to support the claim that it's Michael. Everything is being regurgitated, not just the valid reasoning that you refuse to acknowledge and instead call "excuses", but the same reasoning as to why it's not Michael is being repeated.

So why is it okay, for one side to make fun of the other, while the other remains respectful? Simple answer is, it isn't.

You're talking about Michael Jackson recording 12 songs in a shower while sitting down and compressing his diaphragm. That's the level of your debate at this moment in time. If you can't see the ridiculousness of it then you should take a minute and think about that. In a shower. Sitting down. 12 songs.

It would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting.

Stop making stuff up, Eddie never said that. And it sucks that you're so close minded, that's all.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^Annie, please don't give too much credit to your fellow believers. Some of them are far from being respectful. Just saying.

Yes, Eddie never said Michael compressed his diaphragm. But, Sam didn't make stuff up. It's a FACT pointed out by Ivy that one's diaphragm is indeed compressed when sitting. So, if Michael sang in the shower while sitting, his diaphragm is compressed. It's biology.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^Annie, please don't give too much credit to your fellow believers. Some of them are far from being respectful. Just saying.

True, but that's a few people. Aside from you and Bumper, I can't say the same for the opposing side. And I'm only referring to those who frequent this thread, not people like MattyJam and Alec.

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Annie, my mistake,I got u confused with aniram, sorry bout that. It was aniram that compared eddie being vague about the tracks wuth mj's this is it announcement.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Sucking up the life from the earth from under 'me'. You gave the lyrics too much credit by correcting them!

Lol... "underneath" does sound better than "under me"... I can't believe I improve the lyrics unconsciously.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

So why is it okay, for one side to make fun of the other, while the other remains respectful? Simple answer is, it isn't.

Get your facts right. Worldwide referred to me as an 'idiot' and 'stupid' just today. And I was abused yesterday, too. So make sure you know what you're talking about before you make up such a claim.

Stop making stuff up, Eddie never said that. And it sucks that you're so close minded, that's all.

Since when was Eddie Cascio the be-all and end-all? Sitting down, as opposed to standing up, compresses the diaphragm. That's physiological fact. Regardeless of what Eddie ('The Gospel') says!

 

[mjjesamor]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

What about 'killing up' Eddie added a new phrasal verb to the english language there i guess.